True love is forever.
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Rank: Ace Attorney
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:55 am
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musouka wrote:
But he doesn't just ask about her looking like someone--he asks her other things, such as if she's ever gone to Ivy U and other questions. I think it's a real stretch to say that she couldn't have any idea that he wants to know what happened. Not to mention, it doesn't make any sense for him to question her about the past if he's moved on. A quick "wow, you really look like someone I knew a while ago", sure, but not the string of questions he put to her.
I mean, can you at least admit that it was also motivated by her desire to hide herself from him, out of selfishness? Because she didn't want him to judge her?
Edgeworth asks her if they've met before and they go through a small exchange about that, but that doesn't mean he's haunted by some great emotional torment. She just looks familiar and he wants to know why he recognizes her. Unlike Phoenix, Edgeworth didn't have any clue why he recognized her so he can't suggest a few posibilities, but would be read about the same. Should she have interpreted Edgeworth's question as some sign of great torment (she really didn't know him)? She and Dahlia share a striking similarity that would spark anyone to ask about it, but that doesn't mean the act of questioning it is a sign of there being something more. I imagine it was rather unnerving for her to have Phoenix get so close, but Iris was clearly expecting to have to answer a few questions particularly considering she is completely aware of how much she looks like her twin. Phoenix could have been over "Dollie" and still curious about why this woman looked like his ex. Wouldn't you have been? This is not "Wow, you look vaguely like this person," it's "I could swear we've met before" (from both Phoenix and Edgewoth. Anyone would be rather curious at such a striking similarity. Why does his trying to place a face mean that he's in pain? Phoenix had no reason to believe that Iris had anything to do with him (he admits as much) and Iris is clearly well aware that he never knew about her existence. "Because I may know who Phoenix Wright is... But... He has no idea who I am."
He asks a couple questions, but there isn't anything in them to indicate that he's in pain or that anything is still unresolved. Why would she believe that he can't accept what he knows now? It's clear that there aren't really unanswered questions as far as the earlier cases with Dahlia are concerned, but as Phoenix admits in the hospital, he just can't bring himself to believe those facts. Phoenix is in pain because he can't believe that the person in those files is his "Dollie" and not because facts of the case aren't clear. Had he been able to believe he dated Dahlia, he's upset for a couple years maybe at his bad judgement and maybe has some trust issues, but then he would move on. His pain is simply because he can't except what he's reading and remembers as he admits. But why would Iris know that he can't accept something which seems to be extremely clear? I've already talked about how Iris can't conceive of the notion that he has such strong feelings for her that he would still be bothered by what happened. As a result, while she must know what he's referencing, she has no reason to believe that he isn't simply curious because of the similarity. She isn't going to bring it up while he seems to be over her and reopen a closed wound. As I mentioned, his life seems to be quite good and for the most part he doesn't seem to be unhappy. His case was long since solved and resolved, except in Phoenix's mind where he still had faith in "Dollie" despite all the evidence contrary to his belief. All Iris could know was that it appeared that he had moved on and now had a wonderful life which didn't need to be complicated by her.
musouka wrote:
No, she agrees because she loves and trusts Phoenix, and thus trusts whoever Phoenix sends to help her.
And again, she could have taken the fall by confessing her guilt at any time, like Lana. But every time Edgeworth asks she tells him, "No, I didn't do it." She wants to be saved. She wants Phoenix to save her.
I agree partly with the first part. She does love and trust Phoenix, which is why she can't bare to cause him anymore pain and accepts Edgeworth's offer I also imagine that she denies the crime because she didn't want Phoenix to believe she was a murder so she denies her guilt, but she doesn't seem overly concerned with her defense. In fact, Lana's case had little hard evidence as Phoenix points out ("You insisted you "did it," yet there was no incriminating evidence") and relied mostly on her confession and Angel's testimony. The more incriminating evidence gets added during trial (the victim's shoe and the picture of Lana). With Iris, they had a weapon covered with her prints and blood-covered clothing, which are extremely strong pieces of evidence. They also have a witness with more of a reason to protect Iris then to incriminate her (unlike Angel who had a clear bias), so that testimony was very damaging. Iris didn't need to confess at the time. The evidence against her was overwhelming and Iris never was willing to give up the real killer's name even to save herself.
She also offers to let Edgeworth out of his promise right from the start (Why do this if she's so desperate to be saved?) and really offers him no information to help with her defense. In fact when he questions her about the snowmobile, she admits that she was the one that used it but insists that she can't tell him why. By this point the snowmobile is a rather major point and knowing why she used it (And it was a fact that she was the only one who could have used it which Franziska puts a great deal of emphasis on) would have been a great weapon. If she's so desperate to be saved, why not tell Edgeworth what happened and give up Godot? That would have saved her from a murder charge, but she insists that she can't explain and sends Edgeworth back into court without anything to fight with. All she's willing to say is "I didn't do it," but she refuses to aid him with the investigation and the trial. She has left evidence all over the place pointing to her (almost all of which would have been really easy to get rid of after Bikini faints) and refuses to aid in her own defense. She doesn't seem particularly worried by the idea of being found guilty and even while in jail, the first question out of her mouth is not to inquire about her own situation (which she knows all about and is prepared for), but to ask if Phoenix is okay.
She isn't even the one who brings up the crime (or the idea of her defense) at all. She falls quite after discovering that Phoenix is okay and then all the rest of her responses are in reference to his questions. Iris certainly isn't desperate to be saved as she doesn't even seem to give a thought to her defense. In fact her response to the conclusion of the first question period is "Thank you very much for listening to my story." There is still no mention of his defending her despite the fact that he is about to leave. Its just thanks for listening and bye. Edgeworth then responds "...I visited Wright at the hospital before coming here. He asked me to take care of you..." It's Edgeworth who brings up how Phoenix wants him to "take care" of her and this is the first talk about her defense in that entire exchange. She doesn't ask for help at any point and only accepts after hearing that this is Phoenix's request. I admit that I fail to see any desperation to be saved in Iris's behavior as she seems to be entirely unconcerned about her own fate throughout the exchange (and even has to be reminded by Edgeworth later that he's trying to help her because she's being uncooperative).
Iris also clearly doesn't believe that Phoenix would want to defend her and is shocked that he is apparently concerned for her and has sent Edgeworth to take care of her. Iris framed herself and she knew that she was going down for murder There is no way that she was expecting Phoenix to arrange her defense for her and there was no one else around to save her. The temple didn't have the finances to arrange for a decent defense and the only thing that seems to scare her is the idea that Phoenix might find out her secret and be further hurt by it. She loves Phoenix and this is clearly what he wants, so she consents. Remember that Lana may not be interested in being saved, but she does agree finally because of Ema's plea. Iris is similar in that she was well aware of her fate (she admits that Godot informed her off all the possible consequences), but she can't tell the man she loves no. She clearly agrees to Edgeworth's offer only after hearing that he was there at Phoenix's request.
musouka wrote:
And, as Edgeworth pointed out, what she was doing was protecting herself. She didn't want Phoenix to know. No one likes showing their worst side to the person they love. Even if you don't think Edgeworth is in love with Phoenix, the truth of the matter is that he:
a) noticed Phoenix's pain
and
b) instictively knew how to make it better
That's a defining trait in their relationship. That inablity to leave the other alone when they see them suffering. Edgeworth being labeled the "demon prosecutor" didn't really have anything to do with Phoenix--but even without spending ANY time with Edgeworth, he noticed that he was suffering and did everything in his power to help save him from that pain. It's likewise with Edgeworth. Phoenix and Iris's relationship is really none of his damn business, but he can't leave it alone if it's hurting Phoenix.
Again though, think about the situation in which Edgeworth noticed. Phoenix is drifting in and out of consciousness as well as behind desperately worried for Maya and Iris. Hiding his feelings would be much harder under those circumstances as Phoenix's defenses would be down. Also, why is it that this is the first time Edgeworth notices that Phoenix is in pain when it is clearly something that has been bothering him for five years? He clearly states that he only noticed the strangeness when he talked about her and while Phoenix would not have volunteered information about this, wouldn't talking about his college years have brought up a similar reaction? Yet Edgeworth says"Whenever you came up in our conversation, he would begin to act a little... strange." There is no reference to having noticed anything prior in Phoenix's behavior and had he noticed Phoenix was behaving strangely why wouldn't he have tried to find out why earlier? Why is it that Edgeworth seems to have no idea about Phoenix's past after they are friends again? Edgeworth admits that he never knew about 3-1 and only finds out about the case because he goes back to the department to find out why he knows Iris. Iris leads him to Dahlia and Dahlia leads him to Phoenix. It never occurred him to ask about Phoenix's past? Why? While getting to know his old friend again, wouldn't this be one of the first things you would talk about particularly after fifteen years? Besides, college is a really common starting point for those kind of discussions. This would either mean that they really aren't particularly close or Edgeworth couldn't tell either while Phoenix was well enough to hide it.
And again, I point out that Iris had a lot more on her mind at the time of their discussion, while Edgeworth had little on his mind at the hospital. As for knowing how to fix it, Edgeworth ran from his demons for a long time and finally learned the hard way that the best way to deal with them is to face them head on. His knowledge on how to fix it is from experience, not instinct. In 1-5, Edgeworth states "No matter how tragic the truth may be,it would be an even greater tragedy... to avert one's eyes from it." While this case wasn't apart of the original games, it is clearly how he feels by this point. He says something similar at the end of 2-4 about how he and Phoenix are there to find the truth. From his own experience, he knows well that you can run from your problems, but you can never escape them that way. Although this is a lesson Iris has yet to learn, she does learn it by the end of this case and Edgeworth certainly wasn't working any special understanding of Phoenix. His belief is that the best way to handle any problem, is to face it. That is simply his personality by this point. Iris firmly believed she was doing what was best for Phoenix. Being wrong does change what her motivation was.
musouka wrote:
And, that, to me, speaks of love. Risking and perhaps losing things you care about--Phoenix's major, Edgeworth risking his badge to help Iris for Phoenix--because you can't stand to see that person in pain. And, not only that, but recognizing it even without a lot of time spent together and knowing how to fix it. Knowing someone that well.
Yes, perhaps Iris didn't "know". But she loved and dated him for six months. I'd like to think that she "knew" Phoenix a little better than that if she really loves him. If she can't read his moods and demeanor, if she can't understand what he needs and how to help him, then how is she going to support him when he needs her in the future?
First, Edgeworth agrees to come back only after hearing from an almost incoherent Larry that Phoenix may be dead. When Larry says that he was simply hurt, Edgeworth brushes it off and almost hangs up the phone, but dead is on a whole different level. As I said, Larry is making no sense. After Edgeworth demands to know what Larry means by Phoenix may be dead, Larry goes off about Iris (Who Edgeworth doesn't know and doesn't give him any answers). Realizing he wasn't going to get any answers from Larry, he decides he needs to go back. They are friends and if I heard that one of my friends (even if we weren't that close anymore) was near death or was dead, you better believe I'd go see them.
Most of the coversation between Larry and Edgeworth:
Edgeworth: ...Huh? Larry...? Do you know what time it is?
Butz: It's not "Larry"! It's "Laurice"! Laurice Deauxnim!
Edgeworth: (... This is nothing more than a terrible nightmare... I'll just roll over and...)
Butz: W-Wait! Don't hang up! ...It's an emergency! It's Nick! H-He... He took a really nasty spill!
Edgeworth: Well, it wouldn't be the first time, so...
Butz: I'm not joking! His life is in danger!
Edgeworth: Wh-What...!? What happened!? Tell me!
Butz: Talk about a guy with bad luck! He may already be dead! Anyway, you've got to come back! You're the only one that can help! My Iris... My beautiful Iris! She needs help...!
Edgeworth: Alright. I don't know what's going on, but... I'll be there as soon as I can.
Butz: I-I'm at the detention center! Please! Hurryyyyyy!
When Phoenix is simply hurt, Edgeworth is ready to go back to sleep. He can call and check on him in the morning, but Larry then says that Phoenix's life is in danger and then goes off on a tangent instead of answering the question. Edgeworth does remember what Larry is like (you can see that as early as 1-4) and therefore when Larry gets really off topic, he gives up trying to get those answers out of him because he knows its a waste of time. He does agree to defend Iris in Phoenix's place depite the risk, but think about what Phoenix has done for him in the past. If we include 1-5, Phoenix has solved two huge mysteries which had been haunting him for years (particularly the belief that he had killed his own father) and finally brings his father's real killer to justice. Phoenix shows him the error of his ways and helps him start down the path of rediscovery which allows him to really move on with his life and become the person we see by the second and third games. These are no small things and they were very tough on Phoenix. Now the situation has been reversed and it is Phoenix who needs help defeating his demons. If after all Phoenix did for him and after seeing him sick in the hospital, he could have simply turned around and gone back to Europe, I would have lost all respect for him. I can't imagine a colder, more horrible response after all Phoenix has done for him. At the very least, he's repaying a debt and being a good friend. Edgeworth is his friend and does care about him, it just doesn't seem to extend beyond that.
musouka wrote:
I apologize. I was out of line.
No problem and thank you.
Last edited by Mia_Fey on Wed Feb 20, 2008 10:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.