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Filler Cases?
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Re: Filler Cases?
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2-3: Berry Big Circus became a tiny plot point, but filler still.
3-3: Had no say on the plot. Filler.
4-3: Introduced Lamiroir, but under the circumstances of Machi being arrested, you'd have to be blind to see that it's filler with little writing effort.
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Re: Filler Cases?
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Spoiler:
The same way 1-5, 2-1, 3-2 and 4-2 are fillers too (4-2 even more than 4-3).
About being lacking, I have to say that 3-3 is my 3rd favorite case, and 4-3 is my 7th favorite case.
We need cases like these, too.
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And I would choose 1-3 over 1-1 and 1-2 any day.
Re: Filler Cases?
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But non-canon isn't the right term also.
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Re: Filler Cases?
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The third cases might not be as epic as the cases that follow but they are still good episodes in their own right. If they are bad, the problem is within the case itself. (ie.
)
Re: Filler Cases?
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1-5 is kind of in a grey area... it was added in after JFA for why Edgy went missing, but Edgy's reason in JFA wasn't described like that xD It's also necessary later for Ema Sky in AJ and that reference in 4-2.
2-1 is a complete filler (it's just a tutorial)
2-3 is a complete filler. (Okay. Maybe that line about Pearl in the very beginning wasn't.)
2-4 was filler except for Edgeworth's return.
3-2 and 3-3 were both filler, except for characterizing Godot and the red foreshadowing.
4-2 was a filler except for the introduction of Trucy.
4-3 was a semi-filler, like 1-3, 'cause of all the stuff with Lamirior and precursor to the Jurist System.
That's my opinion on all of this. All cases not mentioned here are not filler.
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Re: Filler Cases?
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Re: Filler Cases?
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..do the "tutorial cases" really count, though? They ARE exactly what they're supposed to be.
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Re: Filler Cases?
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dabn wrote:
What about 2-2? It's also semi-filler, the case itself had no meaning to the plot itself but all the stuff the rovlved it did have meaning.
It:
1. Introduces Pearl
2. Introduces Morgan
3. Gives us more information about the Fey Clan and spirit channeling
4. Introduces Morgan's whole desire for Pearl to become Master, which basically caused all of T&T.
Not really filler, if you ask me
Crowley wrote:
..do the "tutorial cases" really count, though? They ARE exactly what they're supposed to be.
1-1 introduced Larry, Phoenix, and Mia, all important characters. Not a filler.
2-1 is a filler as I said.
3-1 introduced Dahlia and began that whole mess (for the player) and the over-arcing storyline. Not a filler.
4-1 introduced hobo!Phoenix and Kristoph, and that was a part of the whole over-arcing storyline. Not a filler. (EDIT: Lol, it's important b/c it introduces Phoenix and Kristoph. The fact that it introduces Apollo doesn't matter much, tho xD)
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Re: Filler Cases?
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dabn wrote:
What about 2-2? It's also semi-filler, the case itself had no meaning to the plot itself but all the stuff the rovlved it did have meaning.
But it was our Kurain case!
And it set the stage for 3-5, so you can't really say it's filler.
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Re: Filler Cases?
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Bad Player wrote:
dabn wrote:
What about 2-2? It's also semi-filler, the case itself had no meaning to the plot itself but all the stuff the rovlved it did have meaning.
It:
1. Introduces Pearl
2. Introduces Morgan
3. Gives us more information about the Fey Clan and spirit channeling
4. Introduces Morgan's whole desire for Pearl to become Master, which basically caused all of T&T.
Not really filler, if you ask me
quote]
That's exactly what I meant, all your points here aren't "filler-ish" but the case itself is.
Re: Filler Cases?
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dabn wrote:
Bad Player wrote:
dabn wrote:
What about 2-2? It's also semi-filler, the case itself had no meaning to the plot itself but all the stuff the rovlved it did have meaning.
It:
1. Introduces Pearl
2. Introduces Morgan
3. Gives us more information about the Fey Clan and spirit channeling
4. Introduces Morgan's whole desire for Pearl to become Master, which basically caused all of T&T.
Not really filler, if you ask me
quote]
That's exactly what I meant, all your points here aren't "filler-ish" but the case itself is.
Morgan trying to get Pearl to be master was the whole point of the case; that is not a filler. (Besides, if you get right down to it, most of the non-filler cases' cases are like 2-2 in that the case itself is a filler)
B.M. wrote:
But it was our Kurain case!
Don't forget that Maya must be accused of murder or be in mortal danger at least once a game!
: Ring. Ring.
...
Huh? What about 2-4?
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Re: Filler Cases?
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Bad Player wrote:
1-3 was a semi-filler, as Szabu explained.
1-5 is kind of in a grey area... it was added in after JFA for why Edgy went missing, but Edgy's reason in JFA wasn't described like that xD It's also necessary later for Ema Sky in AJ and that reference in 4-2.
2-1 is a complete filler (it's just a tutorial)
2-3 is a complete filler. (Okay. Maybe that line about Pearl in the very beginning wasn't.)
2-4 was filler except for Edgeworth's return.
3-2 and 3-3 were both filler, except for characterizing Godot and the red foreshadowing.
4-2 was a filler except for the introduction of Trucy.
4-3 was a semi-filler, like 1-3, 'cause of all the stuff with Lamirior and precursor to the Jurist System.
That's my opinion on all of this. All cases not mentioned here are not filler.
1-5 is kind of in a grey area... it was added in after JFA for why Edgy went missing, but Edgy's reason in JFA wasn't described like that xD It's also necessary later for Ema Sky in AJ and that reference in 4-2.
2-1 is a complete filler (it's just a tutorial)
2-3 is a complete filler. (Okay. Maybe that line about Pearl in the very beginning wasn't.)
2-4 was filler except for Edgeworth's return.
3-2 and 3-3 were both filler, except for characterizing Godot and the red foreshadowing.
4-2 was a filler except for the introduction of Trucy.
4-3 was a semi-filler, like 1-3, 'cause of all the stuff with Lamirior and precursor to the Jurist System.
That's my opinion on all of this. All cases not mentioned here are not filler.
You DO realise you nearly called all the cases filler right?
Re: Filler Cases?
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Also, Nick learns what it means to be a lawyer, Pearl learns a little bit of independence, Edgey returns and confronts Franziska... That affects things a fair bit.
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Gerkuman wrote:
2-4 is impossible to be filler as it's what the entire game is building up to. Since filler is defined per game generally, you can't say the climax of it isn't important.
Also, Nick learns what it means to be a lawyer, Pearl learns a little bit of independence, Edgey returns and confronts Franziska... That affects things a fair bit.
Also, Nick learns what it means to be a lawyer, Pearl learns a little bit of independence, Edgey returns and confronts Franziska... That affects things a fair bit.
Don't forget that we get to see Phoenix and Maya's relationship (whether you interpret it as friendly, siblingly or romantically like me) like never before.
Re: Filler Cases?
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Mechashadow wrote:
Bad Player wrote:
1-3 was a semi-filler, as Szabu explained.
1-5 is kind of in a grey area... it was added in after JFA for why Edgy went missing, but Edgy's reason in JFA wasn't described like that xD It's also necessary later for Ema Sky in AJ and that reference in 4-2.
2-1 is a complete filler (it's just a tutorial)
2-3 is a complete filler. (Okay. Maybe that line about Pearl in the very beginning wasn't.)
2-4 was filler except for Edgeworth's return.
3-2 and 3-3 were both filler, except for characterizing Godot and the red foreshadowing.
4-2 was a filler except for the introduction of Trucy.
4-3 was a semi-filler, like 1-3, 'cause of all the stuff with Lamirior and precursor to the Jurist System.
That's my opinion on all of this. All cases not mentioned here are not filler.
1-5 is kind of in a grey area... it was added in after JFA for why Edgy went missing, but Edgy's reason in JFA wasn't described like that xD It's also necessary later for Ema Sky in AJ and that reference in 4-2.
2-1 is a complete filler (it's just a tutorial)
2-3 is a complete filler. (Okay. Maybe that line about Pearl in the very beginning wasn't.)
2-4 was filler except for Edgeworth's return.
3-2 and 3-3 were both filler, except for characterizing Godot and the red foreshadowing.
4-2 was a filler except for the introduction of Trucy.
4-3 was a semi-filler, like 1-3, 'cause of all the stuff with Lamirior and precursor to the Jurist System.
That's my opinion on all of this. All cases not mentioned here are not filler.
You DO realise you nearly called all the cases filler right?
I called all the cases that were filler filler. If most cases are fillers, that's not my problem.
Szabu wrote:
Gerkuman wrote:
2-4 is impossible to be filler as it's what the entire game is building up to. Since filler is defined per game generally, you can't say the climax of it isn't important.
Also, Nick learns what it means to be a lawyer, Pearl learns a little bit of independence, Edgey returns and confronts Franziska... That affects things a fair bit.
Also, Nick learns what it means to be a lawyer, Pearl learns a little bit of independence, Edgey returns and confronts Franziska... That affects things a fair bit.
Don't forget that we get to see Phoenix and Maya's relationship (whether you interpret it as friendly, siblingly or romantically like me) like never before.
Smeh.
I don't like 2-4. I'm not changing my opinion on it.
Plus, 1-4, 3-5, and 4-4 were all conclusions of over-arching storylines throughout the game. 2-4 had nothing to do with the previous 3 cases in the game.
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Re: Filler Cases?
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But either way, the only reason you seem to want it to be filler is because you don't like it. XD
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Connection to an overarching plot can be very good; I loved how cases 1, 4, and 5 intertwined in T&T. But being a solid case in its own right is important too. I think T&T achieved the best balance of this with its cases.
Re: Filler Cases?
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Gerkuman wrote:
As soon as they repeated the nightmare from the first case, they linked the whole game together. That and there were plenty of arcs through it, mostly to do with Frannie.
But either way, the only reason you seem to want it to be filler is because you don't like it. XD
But either way, the only reason you seem to want it to be filler is because you don't like it. XD
When was that nightmare repeated? ._. (*did not understand the 'moral' or JFA that was included in there at all, btw, if that's what you're trying to get at*)
Frannie was characterized in 1 scene in 2-3 and at the very end of 2-4. Those 2 scenes do not make either of those cases non-filler.
And I'm looking at these cases on the whole PW series-scale, not each game individually. Yes, 2-4 was the climax of JFA, but if you took it out T&T and AJ would still work out exactly the same way.
Look at these cases: 1-1, 1-2, 1-4, 2-2, 3-1, 3-4, 3-5, 4-1, and 4-4. Those are all the cases I said were solidly non-filler. If you took any of these out, the series would have been drastically different. Now look at my list of filler cases. If you take out any of those, not much changes*. That's the rule I'm using for defining fillers.
*: Yes, I know the characters and characterized in those filler cases and all that stuff. That doesn't really matter, because technically, even if you don't see those aspects of the character, that character will still have those aspects ;)
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Re: Filler Cases?
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in my opinion although "Filler" cases seem like they don't impact the plot, because of the linear short episodic graphic novel type of game Ace attorney is, these cases are needed for us to get to know the characters, they give us more time.
If in the first game there was no 1-3, then the plot would almost be like this "So this is how to play the game, and this is your wacky sidekick and tragic death of your mentor and your main rival, and now you're defending your rival in a murder case! the guy you just met!" and then in the second without 2-3 Franziska would seem like a 1-time gimmick judge, not a new difficult rival with a deep personality, and then it just seems like "Oh and now we're back to the normal guy..." and then the game ends. and the third game, well if T&T was your first game then you'd be confused as all heck when suddenly Maya turns into Mia, because unless I'm remembering it wrong, 3-3 was the first case with ghost Mia in T&T.
And in AJ, is we didn't have 4-3 we wouldn't have Lamiroir, we would BARLEY know Klavier better, overall 4-3 is the least filler of all the ?-3 cases.
Now, filler isn't needed in action oriented games where A) the plot isn't quite as important, and B) if they're your ally then they're following you around most of the time, and if their you're enemy you're gonna kill them anyways.
but in Ace attorney filler cases, although they may seem like they aren't needed, are very important to develop the characters.
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Re: Filler Cases?
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Jeshi wrote:
if T&T was your first game then you'd be confused as all heck when suddenly Maya turns into Mia, because unless I'm remembering it wrong, 3-3 was the first case with ghost Mia in T&T.
It was 3-2 (right at the end, just before Atmey's ridiculously long testimony).
I agree that whilst 1-3, 2-3, 3-3 and 4-3 are definitely filler, I'm not entirely sure about 3-2.
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Re: Filler Cases?
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ALL GLORY TO THE HYPNOGANT
Re: Filler Cases?
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Bad Player wrote:
And I'm looking at these cases on the whole PW series-scale, not each game individually. Yes, 2-4 was the climax of JFA, but if you took it out T&T and AJ would still work out exactly the same way.
I don't think you could possibly call 2-4 filler. Not only is it the climax of JFA, too much happens in it that has a HUGE impact on all the major characters. It was the first time that Phoenix had to defend a guilty person, and it helped define for him what it meant to be a lawyer. It brought Edgeworth back into the story and showed a huge transformation in character for him. You can't say that Edgeworth would have been able to show up in T&T and act the way he did if 2-4 never happened.
Not to mention Maya's reluctance to continue channeling and take up her Kurain responsibilities in T&T was partially because of her kidnapping experience in 2-4. The game says as much. It also established the "Mia and Maya leaving notes for each other between summonings" strategy that showed up and was so important in 3-5.
And of course it's also the culmination of Franziska's character. Declaring 2-4 filler is like declaring Franziska herself a filler character. You might as well discount all of JFA.
I don't think that any case which significantly advances the characterization of major series players can ever be considered filler.
Re: Filler Cases?
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Croik wrote:
I don't think you could possibly call 2-4 filler. Not only is it the climax of JFA, too much happens in it that has a HUGE impact on all the major characters. It was the first time that Phoenix had to defend a guilty person, and it helped define for him what it meant to be a lawyer.
Yeah, but what it means to him depends on what you picked, and they don't go into much detail about what each choice meant. And it was the only time Phoenix had to defend a guilty person; the moral of what being a lawyer means doesn't come back in T&T or AJ.
Quote:
It brought Edgeworth back into the story and showed a huge transformation in character for him. You can't say that Edgeworth would have been able to show up in T&T and act the way he did if 2-4 never happened.
No, I can't say that. Although the addition of 1-5 made Edgy really confusing in 2-4. I didn't really understand any of the philosophical-stuff he said
Quote:
Not to mention Maya's reluctance to continue channeling and take up her Kurain responsibilities in T&T was partially because of her kidnapping experience in 2-4. The game says as much.
I did? I don't remember that part... lines from the game?
Quote:
It also established the "Mia and Maya leaving notes for each other between summonings" strategy that showed up and was so important in 3-5.
Yes, but if 2-4 was something completely different and had the same impact on all the characters and such but Mia and Maya didn't use the note strategy, it still could've been done in 3-5.
Quote:
And of course it's also the culmination of Franziska's character. Declaring 2-4 filler is like declaring Franziska herself a filler character.
The problem is Franziska doesn't do anything in 2-4. (Except make Adrian super-annoying and deliver the evidence.) The culmination of Franny is after the case; that scene could've been tacked on to any case (as long as it involved Egdy coming back).
Quote:
You might as well discount all of JFA.
Here's where the problem comes... I'm really biased against JFA. I would like to do that
Quote:
I don't think that any case which significantly advances the characterization of major series players can ever be considered filler.
Well, I really didn't like 2-4, and it didn't really change any of the characters in my view, so it's at least a filler for me
It at least doesn't have a major plot point that obviously changes everything, like 1-2 or 4-4.
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Re: Filler Cases?
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Come on, imagine if only these channelling related cases were in the game it would suck.
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Quote:
Here's where the problem comes... I'm really biased against JFA. I would like to do that
Well, whether you like JFA or not, the fact remains that it's part of canon, and that isn't likely to change. XD
Re: Filler Cases?
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Waiting For Godot wrote:
Honestly, I don't think calling some cases filler is correct. I mean, all of the filler cases mentioned help in caracterizing characters and more importantly, vary the gameplay aspects of each case.
Yes, but you must admit that certain cases have affect the plot much more than other cases. So while these "filler cases" aren't true fillers, they are less plotty than other cases.
And yes, plotty is not a real word.
Felice wrote:
Quote:
Here's where the problem comes... I'm really biased against JFA. I would like to do that
Well, whether you like JFA or not, the fact remains that it's part of canon, and that isn't likely to change. XD
I know, but I can still take anti-JFA positions in discussions like these ;)
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Re: Filler Cases?
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Bad Player wrote:
Quote:
It brought Edgeworth back into the story and showed a huge transformation in character for him. You can't say that Edgeworth would have been able to show up in T&T and act the way he did if 2-4 never happened.
No, I can't say that. Although the addition of 1-5 made Edgy really confusing in 2-4. I didn't really understand any of the philosophical-stuff he said
I would say that 1-5 is the only series filler.... >.> But only because it was slipped in later. If they had done it chronologically I think it would have been a lot better.
Just because T&T doesn't make specific references to specific events from JFA doesn't mean you could just cut it out of the plot without any effects. You couldn't just tag Franziska's scene on the end of any case: the fact that Edgeworth was there, that he took over for her when she got shot, that she watched Phoenix lose in court and not be upset over it - those are all things that help make up who she is once she returns in T&T. When Phoenix takes cases after 2-4 he may not say every time, "It's a good thing I've learned a lot about lawyering!" but by 3-5 he is a stronger attorney than he was at the beginning of the series, and every case he takes in between contributes to that.
I can understand not liking the game, but that just isn't grounds for calling it filler, because it makes up one third of the Phoenix arc plot.
Re: Filler Cases?
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Croik wrote:
Bad Player wrote:
Quote:
It brought Edgeworth back into the story and showed a huge transformation in character for him. You can't say that Edgeworth would have been able to show up in T&T and act the way he did if 2-4 never happened.
No, I can't say that. Although the addition of 1-5 made Edgy really confusing in 2-4. I didn't really understand any of the philosophical-stuff he said
I would say that 1-5 is the only series filler.... >.> But only because it was slipped in later. If they had done it chronologically I think it would have been a lot better.
Just because T&T doesn't make specific references to specific events from JFA doesn't mean you could just cut it out of the plot without any effects. You couldn't just tag Franziska's scene on the end of any case: the fact that Edgeworth was there, that he took over for her when she got shot, that she watched Phoenix lose in court and not be upset over it - those are all things that help make up who she is once she returns in T&T.
I did say that Edgy had to be there to tag on the scene :P But I guess you're right about Edgeworth winning and her reaction shows a big change in her character.
Quote:
When Phoenix takes cases after 2-4 he may not say every time, "It's a good thing I've learned a lot about lawyering!" but by 3-5 he is a stronger attorney than he was at the beginning of the series, and every case he takes in between contributes to that.
If you use the argument that "Any case in which Phoenix becomes a stronger attorney" isn't a filler, then no case would be classified as a filler... and that includes 1-5. Saying that Phoenix learned a lot about lawyering in 2-4, and so it's not a filler, is too general, as it applies every single case. Saying that 2-4 is not a filler because it has a lot of characterization for almost every (if not every) major character featured (which you've basically been saying xD) is a pretty strong argument, though.
Well, I guess of course you could use that argument about learning about being a lawyer, but that's getting into an argument over what being a filler means....
Quote:
I can understand not liking the game, but that just isn't grounds for calling it filler, because it makes up one third of the Phoenix arc plot.
When did I say 2-2 was filler?
realresponse: Okay, okay... 2-4 may have had a lot of characterization, but it didn't have as much influence on the entire plot as 1-2 or 4-4 or 1-5. But 2-1 and 2-3 were definitely fillers. (Note 1: I know that scene in 2-3 revealed a lot about Franziska. But that scene really could have been tacked onto any case, unlike the Franny/Edgy scene. Note 2: I don't think any of the cases are true fillers, but there are definitely cases that have less impact on the plot, and therefore are more 'filler-ish')
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Re: Filler Cases?
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Bad Player wrote:
Note 2: I don't think any of the cases are true fillers, but there are definitely cases that have less impact on the plot, and therefore are more 'filler-ish')
But...this topic isn't "filler-ish" it's "filler." So if you don't actually believe that any of them are filler, why are you arguing?
I honestly don't consider any of the cases filler. All of them serve a purpose. I would have said 1-5, because the series already proved it doesn't need it to happen exactly as it did, except then Ema shows up again in game 4. If the case introduces a major series player, it's not really filler, it's setup. Same for 2-1, especially if Maggey is coming back in Kenji.
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Also, the only way what is or isn't filler matters is if the entire series ever gets adapted into a comic, a tv show, a movie etc. If that were the case, I could see someone getting rid of 2-1 AND 2-3. The only thing 2-1 does is introduce Maggey, which could easily be done in one of the other more police focused cases (1-5 for instance.) So uuuhh, yeah. There's that.
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This thread is just convincing me that filler really doesn't mean anything worthwhile because fandom loves to skew it so much. 2-4 is a big case and the climax of JFA, whether or not it had a massive impact on future games. (And no, it didn't affect Maya. That was 2-2.) Hell, all 3-5 really does is give us an assumption for why Maya isn't around in the next game.
Re: Filler Cases?
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Croik wrote:
Bad Player wrote:
Note 2: I don't think any of the cases are true fillers, but there are definitely cases that have less impact on the plot, and therefore are more 'filler-ish')
But...this topic isn't "filler-ish" it's "filler." So if you don't actually believe that any of them are filler, why are you arguing?
Because it's fun
Pickens wrote:
I've never been too fond of 2-3. I don't think it does that much for characterization. The only character 2-3 could really explore is Franziska, and from what I remember, it doesn't do a better job than 2-2 or 2-4. If it does do something for any character, please refresh my memory, because I haven't played it since it released in the US.
2-3 was short but sweet for the characterization of Franziska. It's where we learned about revenge and Edgeworth. But beyond that, it's pretty fillerish.
Credit to Evolina for the sig+avatar!
Re: Filler Cases?
PCHOOO
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Any overall "plot" is sort of another thing added on to give us connections between events that we crave in any sort of narrative. But really that doesn't mean that the other cases are "filler". I just really dislike the use of that term. Each case is its own story and they're all equally interesting.
Re: Filler Cases?
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1) Some Franziska characterization.
2) The ending of the case.
3) The "... Actually, there is some precedent for this." line in 3-5.
Re: Filler Cases?
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But I think it's good that there were cases like those included. It would be a bit strange to think that Phoenix never took a case that wasn't related to the Fey story.
EDIT >
Regy Rusty wrote:
If I may point out something: the Ace Attorney series is about lawyers. Lawyers take cases. At it's very core, the series is about documenting these lawyers and the murders they investigate, the clients they defend, and the true murderers that they uncover.
Any overall "plot" is sort of another thing added on to give us connections between events that we crave in any sort of narrative. But really that doesn't mean that the other cases are "filler". I just really dislike the use of that term. Each case is its own story and they're all equally interesting.
Any overall "plot" is sort of another thing added on to give us connections between events that we crave in any sort of narrative. But really that doesn't mean that the other cases are "filler". I just really dislike the use of that term. Each case is its own story and they're all equally interesting.
That's exactly it.
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