Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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Spoiler: not sure if this is spoiler or not...
Also...
Spoiler: 1-5
And so many times, Phoenix has just bluffed his way through cases until the very very end.
So, is he an actual good lawyer? I haven't played AJ yet, so I don't know how he acts in that...
Discuss.
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Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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Phoenix does have help but he also makes a fair few deductions, however some of the games tension comes from the feeling of helplessness or bluffing to buy time and it is clear some view Phoenix as lucky rather than talented until the end of T&T
Of course in the real world Phoenix would need to know the technicalities of criminal law and evidence gathering or he would not get very far. However a realistic depiction of the finer points of law wouldn't be an enjoyable game.
So it depends on what you judge him against really
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Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
OBJECTION!
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Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
...Hopefully someday... xD
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He has been quite lucky at least twice in each case...
Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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Haha, I'm kidding. In fact, I doubt that he would do good if Maya or Pearls (for the channeling) hadn't been there for him. Magatama too, of course.
Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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Spoiler: T&T, specially 3-5
Spoiler: 4-4
Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
...Hopefully someday... xD
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Prosecutor Scorpion wrote:
It's also mentionworthy that two lawyers have already considered his abilities bad.
Spoiler: T&T, specially 3-5
Spoiler: 4-4
That 3-5 can propably be explained yhis way:
- When 3-5 BOSS (k?) lost and was...Oh forget it...I can't explain what I mean with these english skills.... -_-'
The other one...Sadly: It's true.
Nicky is one lucky bluff ^^
Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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Zinle wrote:
- When 3-5 BOSS (k?) lost and was...Oh forget it...I can't explain what I mean with these english skills.... -_-'
You mean that Godot was the boss over T&T, like in Zelda?
Also, i think that this subject can bring up the differences between Apollo and Phoenix.
Phoenix relies on luck, while Apollo knows faster what's going on.
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Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
tell me if you know a better one.
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Spiker wrote:
Phoenix has his moments. He believes in his clients to the bitter end and that's what makes him a good lawyer.
yes he's right and phoenix learn things on the lawschool but he is forget them.
always remeber 2 things.
1. rules are made to be broken.
2. risk are there to be taken
1. rules are made to be broken.
2. risk are there to be taken
Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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Quote:
:...and with clients like Mr. Wright, who needs prosecutors?Phoenix does his defenses out of the box. Instead of proving the innocence of his client, he proves the guilt of another.
Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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Prosecutor Scorpion wrote:
It's also mentionworthy that two lawyers have already considered his abilities bad.
Spoiler: T&T, specially 3-5
Spoiler: 4-4
>
Spoiler: 1-4, 2-4, 3-5, 4-4
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Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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Spoiler: 1-4
The only thing that makes him a good lawyer is his belief in his clients.
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Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
Hello, Adrian.
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TheMcD wrote:
The only thing that makes him a good lawyer is his belief in his clients.
The McD
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That's pretty interesting, because
Spoiler:
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Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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Xray wrote:
TheMcD wrote:
The only thing that makes him a good lawyer is his belief in his clients.
The McD
The McD
That's pretty interesting, because
Spoiler:
But in the end he did end up dead. Well, the thing is it's very probably better for a lawyer to believe in his client. Kind of gives him a boost in the direction of "I know this guy is innocent, I just have to prove it! But that's not a problem since he is innocent!" We don't know enough about Hammond to actually make too many statements. The opposite of course is true for a prosecutor. If Phoenix wasn't so confident in his clients in the first game, he probably would have lost all cases to Edgeworth.
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Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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Spoiler: 3-5
Spoiler: 4-4
Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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We also have the fact that he seems to rely on bluff and trickery a great deal of the time to close the case. On the other hand, he does have the nearly impossible task of proving his client innocent beyond any shadow of a doubt, (which is what the judge always seems to require). Sure, the magatama is a helpful trick, but beyond channeling Mia (which isn't as useful as it seems normally), Maya is more useful for general hunches and humor.
While he does have a bit more extra help then most lawyers, I think we can safely call Phoenix an "Ace Attorney".
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Spoiler: Eggs and Hatchlings
Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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Magnus Orion wrote:
Godot believes pheonix isn't a good lawyer...
Spoiler: 3-5
Spoiler: 4-4
And we all know Godot has a great grasp on reality, right?
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Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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Hes not like the worst or anything, but I wouldn't call him the best.
He often gets help, and doesn't prepare a solid case
But then again, this may be because he only has like a day to find out who his client is, and then investigate.
Phoenix has good deduction skills, but at times can't look at the big picture XD
Overall I think he would be a fairly good attorney.
Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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And he knows about the all teeny weeny little bits of law as he didn't expect any average person to know about...whatever clause it was that Adrian used to not testify.
Sure he gets help but he always pieces it together himself in the end.
Besides maybe it's not all that uncommon for legal folks to get help, Mia had Diego, Apollo has his mentor Nick and Trucy, hell Edgey is going to have multiple partners in Keygirl, Franziska and Gumshoe and maybe even Prosecutor Sporty will co-operate with him so it's not THAT uncommon for them to have help is it?
Besides the whole thing with it is everyone tries to help, every witness brings a new piece of the puzzle to light. If lawyers were just put in a courtroom and told to decide whether someone was guilty or innocent they'd get nowhere they need other people's information and input to make the logical conclusion visable to them.
Though I really think he should've read some of those law books that mock him.
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Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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Herr Blondie wrote:
And he knows about the all teeny weeny little bits of law as he didn't expect any average person to know about...whatever clause it was that Adrian used to not testify.
You mean pleading the fifth?
I'm pretty sure its common knowledge, but given the circumstances, Phoenix was surprised that Adrian thought of doing it then.
Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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Magnus Orion wrote:
Herr Blondie wrote:
And he knows about the all teeny weeny little bits of law as he didn't expect any average person to know about...whatever clause it was that Adrian used to not testify.
You mean pleading the fifth?
I'm pretty sure its common knowledge, but given the circumstances, Phoenix was surprised that Adrian thought of doing it then.
It clearly wasn't common knowledge since it drove Nick to shock thinking she knew about it, he concluded Fransiska must have told her about it as it's highly unlikely she knew about it on her own.
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Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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It guarentees people the right to avoid self-incriminating testimonies. Its pretty popular in crime dramas, so most people know about it. Like fingerprinting or double jeopordy. (though the later is less common knowledge than the first two. Ironicly, considering that double jeopordy is PART of the fifth ammendment, but just like the secret service is known for protecting the president ((their primary job is actually stopping counterfit currency)), the fifth is more well known for its ability to allow someone to refuse testimony than the double jeopordy rule.) Ever hear of the miranda warning: "You have the right to remain silent" ? Thats a right because of the Fifth Ammendment.
Phoenix states that
Spoiler: 4-2
Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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Magnus Orion wrote:
Its the fifth ammendment of the Bill of Rights. Here's what wiki has to say: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution & http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleading_the_Fifth
It guarentees people the right to avoid self-incriminating testimonies. Its pretty popular in crime dramas, so most people know about it. Like fingerprinting or double jeopordy. (though the later is less common knowledge than the first two. Ironicly, considering that double jeopordy is PART of the fifth ammendment, but just like the secret service is known for protecting the president ((their primary job is actually stopping counterfit currency)), the fifth is more well known for its ability to allow someone to refuse testimony than the double jeopordy rule.) Ever hear of the miranda warning: "You have the right to remain silent" ? Thats a right because of the Fifth Ammendment.
Phoenix states that
It guarentees people the right to avoid self-incriminating testimonies. Its pretty popular in crime dramas, so most people know about it. Like fingerprinting or double jeopordy. (though the later is less common knowledge than the first two. Ironicly, considering that double jeopordy is PART of the fifth ammendment, but just like the secret service is known for protecting the president ((their primary job is actually stopping counterfit currency)), the fifth is more well known for its ability to allow someone to refuse testimony than the double jeopordy rule.) Ever hear of the miranda warning: "You have the right to remain silent" ? Thats a right because of the Fifth Ammendment.
Phoenix states that
Spoiler: 4-2
You better be sure of that quote, I'm pretty sure her talked about her not knowing about it rather than what she shouldn't do. And Fransiska wouldn't do something like that to get someone other than the accused guilty she wanted perfect vengence on Nick, are you sure your correct?
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Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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Then again, he is good enough of a lawyer to have his own imposter, so....
Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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Quote:
You better be sure of that quote, I'm pretty sure her talked about her not knowing about it rather than what she shouldn't do. And Fransiska wouldn't do something like that to get someone other than the accused guilty she wanted perfect vengence on Nick, are you sure your correct?
I'll look it up....
Well I got three words wrong, but here it is...
And Franzy, yes she would, if she thought she was going to be there and could give hints when to stop.
Spoiler: 4-2 youtube walkthrough
(Don't these walkthroughs defeat the whole purpose of the games? Oh well, makes looking up quotes easier.)
Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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Which is part of what makes his character interesting, of course. But if you asked Phoenix to behave like a proper lawyer who actually studies the letter of the law, obeys investigation restrictions, and focuses only on his defendant and not pointing the finger at someone else, I think he wouldn't be able to do it.
Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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And Ninjamonkey some trials take years so I think thats a pretty good record considering some of his trials are solved in less than a week.
But Croik theres a reason Nick normally gets innocent clients...he's got his magatama remember? He tested Matt's innocence before accepting his case, though really his hands were tied on that one. He can tell what clients are innocent and therefore find a way to save them
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Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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Herr Blondie wrote:
And Ninjamonkey some trials take years so I think thats a pretty good record considering some of his trials are solved in less than a week.
Real World, yes. AA world (where trials are only allowed to take 3 days maximum), no.
Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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NinjaMonkey wrote:
Personally, I don't think that he's that good a lawyer, given that he's only had 13 cases in 3 years (counting the flashback trial in 4-4). I'd have thought that he'd have had more cases if he was a good lawyer.
I always assumed he had taken more cases in between those, they simply weren't important enough for us to play out, and weren't against the better prosecutors. He did stop taking cases between 1-4 and 1-5, but 2-1 gave a strong impression that he was becoming well known and did take other cases.
For that matter, two one gave us a glimpse of what phoenix can manage when he has more then a day to prepare. Then he got amnesia. Shame really.
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Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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But with game standards? Considering the difficulty of Phoenix's cases and the total lack of evidence most of the time, I'd say he's both pretty good and pretty lucky. Usually, he just grasps on barely, trusting his client and finding contradictions, until someone either slips up or hands him the decisive piece of evidence. That's both admirable and lucky.
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Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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But i'd like to think that the Von Karma's as the best lawyers in the Game.
Manfred had a pretty solid Victory Record (and he was nearly impossible to defend against).
And Franziska was a lawyer since she was 13 (In Germany/America).
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Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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Also...
Spoiler: Trials & Tribulations, case 5
Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
This time.. it's real!
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FirexxxSaber wrote:
Is Phoenix Wright actually a good lawyer?
Realistically, his skill relies on the player, so either he could be as smart as a brick in a bowl of fruit salad, OR he's the next Stephen Hawking. xD
Edgeworth is pretty dang quick to the draw, so I'd say he wins.
In character, I think he's pretty neutral. He has his moments of glory although he'd be pretty much useless at times if it weren't for the Magatama.
Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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Herr Blondie wrote:
But Croik theres a reason Nick normally gets innocent clients...he's got his magatama remember? He tested Matt's innocence before accepting his case, though really his hands were tied on that one. He can tell what clients are innocent and therefore find a way to save them
That doesn't apply to the first game. And even in later games he doesn't always think to use the Magatama so blatantly. Plus the Magatama itself is not 100% reliable. We don't see any instances of Phoenix turning down a case because he thought the client was guilty, so yeah, I'd say it's luck that he almost always has an innocent client.
It makes you wonder what Phoenix WOULD do if he was confronted with a guitly client. I think there's no question that if Maya hadn't been in danger in 2-4 he would have dropped Matt the moment he got a confession out of him (though maybe Matt wouldn't have spilled the beans if not for having Maya as leverage in the first place). So would he refuse to take a case up front if he knew the potential client was guilty? Would he depend entirely on the magatama to tell the difference? Or would it also depend on his perception of the client? There have been guilty people who don't show locks, and innocent ones who do, so is the magatama really that much more dependable than Phoenix's gut instincts? But Phoenix's instincts aren't so hot either.
Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that Phoenix has a very haphazard way of choosing which cases he'll take, and even then takes them rarely. A really good lawyer would be able to take a lot of cases, innocent or guilty, and win most if not all of them - which is probably what Grossberg and Kristoph were doing to get as popular and as rich as they were.
Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
Cross-examining your posts!
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Noble Savant wrote:
It's difficult to judge how good Phoenix actually is at being an attorney. Most of the cases we see him take are hopeless causes that other lawyers stay away from, and most of them have a complicated story behind them. Plus, while Mia (or Maya) almost always comes through in the end with some helpful advice, it tends to be something more ephemeral. Rather then actually telling you what to do, she tells Phoenix to "think outside the box", or not to give up. At which point he solves the case.
We also have the fact that he seems to rely on bluff and trickery a great deal of the time to close the case. On the other hand, he does have the nearly impossible task of proving his client innocent beyond any shadow of a doubt, (which is what the judge always seems to require). Sure, the magatama is a helpful trick, but beyond channeling Mia (which isn't as useful as it seems normally), Maya is more useful for general hunches and humor.
While he does have a bit more extra help then most lawyers, I think we can safely call Phoenix an "Ace Attorney".
We also have the fact that he seems to rely on bluff and trickery a great deal of the time to close the case. On the other hand, he does have the nearly impossible task of proving his client innocent beyond any shadow of a doubt, (which is what the judge always seems to require). Sure, the magatama is a helpful trick, but beyond channeling Mia (which isn't as useful as it seems normally), Maya is more useful for general hunches and humor.
While he does have a bit more extra help then most lawyers, I think we can safely call Phoenix an "Ace Attorney".
Not to mention that Phoenix doesn't even seem to like being a lawyer all that much until
Spoiler: AJ is safe I think, but just to be sure
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Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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Spoiler:
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Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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