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What is the first games "theme"?Topic%20Title
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Mystery Buster

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So I've been replaying the original trilogy whilst I wait for AAI and I've nooticed that each game seems to have one theme throughout all of it's cases. For JFA and T&T it was fairly easy to spot. Each case in JFA seems to deal with tradegy:

Spoiler:
2-1: Maggey loses her boyfriend.
2-2: The deaths of several patients, the Mimi sisters, and the further breaking up of the Fey family.
2-3: Pretty much the ENTIRE case.
2-4: Matt and Juane's rivalry that leads to Adrien's friend's (forgot her name) suicide.


While T&T's cases seem to deal with love and betrayal as each case (barring 3-5) has these themes intergrated into their plot:

Spoiler:
3-1: Obvious here
3-2: Not a big betrayal but Ron does lie to Desirae
3-3: Not exactly a betrayal but Tigre does decieve Viola who seems to love him.
3-4: :onamida: and :that-b-word:
3-5: Iris does end up revealing her deception towards Phoenix and also hints at love.


However for AA there is no obvious theme that sticks out like the sequels. The two themes I think that fit the bill however could be "The Past" or "Blackmail"


What do you think?
:gumshoe:
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Re: What is the first games "theme"?Topic%20Title
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Aside from 1-1, Blackmail could've very well been a theme. But there is no blackmail of the sort in 1-1. Not even close.

How about Theft?

Spoiler: Theft
1-1: The murderer is a robber
1-2: Redd White steals all the info about him after killing Mia.
1-3: Hammer steals Powers costume
1-4: Von Karma steals your decisive evidence
1-5: The evidence from Goodmans locker is stolen


Maybe not the best theme, but I can't think of anything else.
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Re: What is the first games "theme"?Topic%20Title
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Blackmail was definitely the theme of PWAA, regardless of whether it was present for the first case or not. I just replayed it (in French~), and for every case I was left with a feeling of "Golly, I think I've seen this before".

Nice theme-finding skills though, Rossco. I wouldn't have thought of those.
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Mystery Buster

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Ooh! I just figured out how blackmail is used in 1-1!

Larry uses his friendship with Nick to get out off paying him!

...

Yes it's a stretch but still...
:gumshoe:
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Glad I'm not the only one who found blackmail almost overused in GS1.

An what about GS4?
Re: What is the first games "theme"?Topic%20Title
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"Gavin" is the only theme I can see. Or perhaps, "justice"?
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D. Crystal wrote:
"Gavin" is the only theme I can see. Or perhaps, "justice"?

The thing is, "Justice" really is a theme of AJ, while what you people are talking about are motifs :P

JFA is not "about" tragedy. It just keeps popping up. (It is about who you are, and if you are willing to give that up for something close to you.)


A motif in AJ could probably just be "crime"...
Spoiler: AJ
Nick--Forged evidence
Wocky--A gangster, and was going to kill Pal
Machi--Smuggler
Vera--Forger

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JFA's "Theme" doesn't work.

Every case in the series is a tragedy, because someone dies.
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AJ's theme could be each of the clients did something wrong.

Spoiler:
1. Phoenix provided false evidence
2. Wocky attempted assalt/murder
3. Macchi(sp) brought an illegal item over boarders
4. Vera forged paintings
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The overarching theme of the series is 'bad things happen, but they are overcome'. Apart from GS4, which was depressing.Oh, and Evidence Forging is a Crime.
Spoiler: "GS2"
Tragedy...The word 'tragedy' is often misused. Correctly, it refers to a Romeo and Juliet-esque story. Death intefering with true love, etc. So yeah, it does refer to all the cases except 2-2. But the tragedy as in 'terrible things happened' doesn't necessarily work as that happened with pretty much every case in the series.
2-1 - Dustin dies and Maggey is left alone.
2-2 - Not sure ^^; Maybe it's talking about platonic love between Ini and Miney
2-3 - The lion trick, where it bit down on Bat's head and interfering with the possible romance he could have had with Regina..(even though he's not Dead as such)
2-4 - CELESTE.

GS3 - Definitely love/betrayal.
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AJ seemed to have a relativity thing going, as far as I could tell. Like neoswordmaster said, each of the defendants did something wrong at some point, so nobody was perfect. In teh other games, pretty much every ended up being really innocent
Spoiler:
Except, y'know... :evil:
But, you get my drift.

Well, then again, maybe not... People pretty much started having flaws after Engarde. So, meh? 'Dunno about 'Polly Justice.
Re: What is the first games "theme"?Topic%20Title

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Regarding JFA... as the others have pointed out, "tragedy" occurs in every game.
I would say the problem of one's identity and personality(ies) is one of the recurring themes in this game.
In 2-1, Phoenix loses his identity along with his memory. He can't remember who he is.
In 2-2, Ini impersonates her sister. She's both Ini and Mimi at the same time.
In 2-3, Ben & Trilo act like two different people, the real Max is nothing like his stage persona, etc.
In 2-4, Engarde has two roles / personalities, Adrian pretends to be strong while she's in fact codependent, and de Killer the man / the assassin are clearly separated.
Also, throughout the game, you've got Franziska imitating her father as well as Edgeworth and Phoenix trying to find out who they really are.
Another recurring theme would be superficial, self-obsessed people and the trouble they cause for others. Wellington, Max, Engarde... have striking similarities in that regard.
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I agree with Ping'. By the end of JFA they make it all about "What does it mean to be a lawyer?" and Phoenix has to face up to his own identity. Plus a lot of the cases have to do with redefining yourself. I'm not sure it was intentional because there are lots of cases that have witnesses with seemingly dual personalities, but the connection is there.

Ping' wrote:
In 2-3, Ben & Trilo act like two different people, the real Max is nothing like his stage persona, etc.


I think in 2-3 the more compelling example is Acro. He didn't have a drastic personality change on the stand like Ini or Matt, but you could say he "lost his identity" as an acrobat after the Leon accident. He even sort of lost the ability to identify as a brother, with Bat being comatose. Having those things stripped from him directly led to his downfall.
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Detective Rossco wrote:
Spoiler:
3-3: Not exactly a betrayal but Tigre does decieve Viola who seems to love him.



Spoiler: 3-3
You forgot about how Maggey felt betrayed by Gumshoe when he testified against her even though he likes her.... :sadshoe:

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Re: What is the first games "theme"?Topic%20Title

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I think the first game's "theme" is losing something important to you:

Spoiler:
1-1: Larry loses Cindy
1-2: Phoenix and Maya lose Mia
1-3: Will Powers loses Jack Hammer (If I recall correctly, Hammer was something of a mentor to him)
1-4: Edgeworth's father's death; Misty Fey's disappearance
1-5: Edgeworth loses his faith in the prosecutors' office due to Lana Skye admitting to handing him forged evidence, Jake lost Neil, Ema is about to lose Lana, etc...


And since there was a discussion about it, I think AJ's theme is "betrayal":

Spoiler:
4-1: Kristoph betrays Phoenix and Apollo, and Phoenix betrays Apollo (the bloody ace)
4-2: Alita betrays Wocky; Mertakis betrays the Kitakis
4-3: Daryan betrays Klavier
4-4: Kristoph betrays Klavier (and Phoenix, and Apollo, and Zak Gramarye, and the Mishams...)


Those are the patterns I've seen.
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Ping' wrote:
Regarding JFA... as the others have pointed out, "tragedy" occurs in every game.
I would say the problem of one's identity and personality(ies) is one of the recurring themes in this game.
In 2-1, Phoenix loses his identity along with his memory. He can't remember who he is.
In 2-2, Ini impersonates her sister. She's both Ini and Mimi at the same time.
In 2-3, Ben & Trilo act like two different people, the real Max is nothing like his stage persona, etc.
In 2-4, Engarde has two roles / personalities, Adrian pretends to be strong while she's in fact codependent, and de Killer the man / the assassin are clearly separated.
Also, throughout the game, you've got Franziska imitating her father as well as Edgeworth and Phoenix trying to find out who they really are.
Another recurring theme would be superficial, self-obsessed people and the trouble they cause for others. Wellington, Max, Engarde... have striking similarities in that regard.


I was going to say something similar, but for the third game. There's a false identity or impersonation in every case.

Spoiler: Every case for T&T. You have been warned.
3-1: Iris has been impersonating Dahlia on all her dates with Phoenix.
3-2: Luke Atmey becomes a false Mask*DeMasque. Ron de Lite has Mask*DeMasque as an alter-ego. First appearance of Godot, an assumed identity of Diego Armando.
3-3: Furio Tigre impersonates both Phoenix Wright and Glen Elg. Violetta Cadaverini impersonates Maggey Byrde.
3-4: Dahlia faked her death and assumed the name Melissa Foster.
3-5: Misty Fey assumes the name Elise Deauxnim. Dahlia thinks she's channeling Maya instead of Pearl. Dahlia pretends to be Iris on the witness stand.

[/spoiler]
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I find "deception" a better motif for GS4 than anything.

Spoiler:
Case 1 - Kristoph, Apollo's super awesome mentor is revealed to a be murderer. Also the red and blue cards "decieve" us.
Case 2 - Alita turns about to be scheming against Wocky.
Case 3 - Machi turns out to be sighted and able to speak english.
Case 4 - FORGERIES.


Here are my favourites for the motifs from what everyone's said:

GS1 - Losing Someone and Blackmail
GS2 - Losing your Identity and overcoming obstacles
GS3 - Love and Betrayal
GS4 - Deception (and also Betrayal?)
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Re: What is the first games "theme"?Topic%20Title

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Another possible theme for AA could be abusing power. All of the villians did it except Frank Sahwit.
Spoiler:
1-2 White had power over a lot of people. Used it for greed and to get away with murder. He also ruined Misty Fey. The Ultimate Power Abuser of the AA series.
1-3 Vasquez had ties to the mafia. Basically controlled Global Studios, had Sal as her lackey, and was in good favor with the "bigwigs". She blackmailed Hammer ruining his career.
1-4 Manfred forged evidence, manipulated testimonies, and pretty much controlled the courtroom. Also was the mastermind behind Hammonds death as well as DL-6.
DL-6- Redd White and Manfred gained considerable power afte
this case. Also, Hammond forced Yogi to plead insanity.
1-5 and SL-9- Gant had controlled of the police department and had control of the prosecutor office because of SL-9. Fired or demoted anyone who got in his way, replacing them with less skilled and smart people. Used his power to make Edgeworth look bad, probably wanting him to be fired or quit or even imprison him because he was a threat. Probably Ganted a ton of people too.
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How 'bout friendship?
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Femme Fatale wrote:
I find "deception" a better motif for GS4 than anything.

Spoiler:
Case 1 - Kristoph, Apollo's super awesome mentor is revealed to a be murderer. Also the red and blue cards "decieve" us.
Case 2 - Alita turns about to be scheming against Wocky.
Case 3 - Machi turns out to be sighted and able to speak english.
Case 4 - FORGERIES.



Don't Forget.
Spoiler:
Magnifi uses Thalassa's "death" to blackmail Zak and Valant when he knew the truth all along.
Zak hiding the real diary page from Phoenix and running away from the courtroom.
Valant rearranging the scene to frame Zak for Magnifi's murder.
Kristoph deceving his own brother about ordering the diary page.
Zak and Olga trying to ruin Phoenix's poker career.
Mekritis hides the truth about Wocky's surgery.
Lamorir isn't really blind.
Daryan using Klavier's Guitar to smuggle the cacoon.
Drew Misham using his daughter for profit.
Re: What is the first games "theme"?Topic%20Title
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Major spoilers ahead.

The most obvious game-specific theme:

T&T: "Love makes us vulnerable."

Absolutely central to cases 3-1, 3-2, 3-3, 3-4, AND 3-5. This had to have been deliberate, because it doesn't show up in any other case except 4-2. "Betrayal hurts" almost works as a theme, but not quite - it doesn't fit 3-2, where Ron and Dessie are absolutely faithful, and it's not quite a fit to 3-5 either.

(Note: If the theme holds true for Phoenix, Ron, Viola, Terry, and Godot, some people may be tempted to add Edgeworth and his frantic jet flight to the list. I don't think I need to comment on that...)


PW: AA: "Even heroes have feet of clay."

The first case establishes that Phoenix Wright, our hero, is going to be an unsteady novice at best. In the second case, Mia Fey dies shockingly and unexpectedly. In the third, Wright has to destroy a kid's belief that 'the Samurai always wins' in order to save the day, and the actor playing that TV hero has his career ruined. In the fourth, Edgeworth learns the truth about his 'perfect' mentor, and his own weaknesses. And in "Rise from the Ashes"... wow.

Everybody tries to do the right thing, even the serial killer who guiltily turns himself in! But, by the end, all of them are disillusioned or dead. Edgeworth, Ema, Lana, Neil, Bruce Goodman, Jake, Angel, and ex-hero Gant fall from grace, Gumshoe gets temporarily fired, and by the end, Phoenix himself has stolen evidence from a police safe, traumatized Ema on the stand, and pulled a trick that verges on evidence concealment.

The theme of fallen heroes and mentors shows up now and again in the series (2-4, 4-1, 4-4, arguably 2-2), but never as much as in the first game.


PW: JfA: "Winning will not help you find your real identity; losing might."

We never learn why Manfred wants to win so badly, and Dahlia and Kristoph apparently both hate to lose just because it makes them losers. Gant loves the control that victory brings; simple enough. But in JfA, it's not like that at all. Every character who strives for victory eventually reveals that they were hiding a deep identity crisis. When the worst happens and they finally lose, Wellington, Mimi, and Acro are subtly, or even openly, relieved. There's no need to maintain a fake identity anymore. Compare this to the resigned, angry, or insane tone of the other villain breakdowns in the series, and there's a world of difference.

(Sneakily, 2-1 puts the same fallacy in Phoenix's head. Surely he can just win, and everything that defines him will flood right back, just like his memories did. No wonder 2-4's such a shock to him!)

Edgeworth states this theme openly and clearly. You can't miss it, not with Franziska ("I AM A VON KARMA!") whipping it into even the densest player's skull. Of course, Engarde cares about winning most of all. And, in the end, if the player chooses to declare him Guilty, we learn that he just can't bear to see both of his masks break at once and reveal the pathetic truth of his real identity.


AJ: AA: "Everything is connected; the wheel of Fate spins big crimes and little crimes together."

The weakest theme of all of them.

This running sense of connection and predestination, where every case fit into an unalterable arc plot, may have been largely responsible for the love-it-or-hate-it response the game got. Want to change the outcome of that fated trial seven years ago? You can't! It ties into all the other cases! It would ruin the giant tangled ball of coincidences. The shark-jumping moment may be the scene where, with the subtlety of an anvil, the designers have you discover paintings of all the other cases in 4-4.

The other theme of AJ: AA is "Court systems are not perfect." But this call for a court system based on common sense rings hollow in a story driven entirely by far-fetched contrivances.

There's also a motif of 'family', but it never goes anywhere interesting. "Family is good" might be the theme, except that the Gramarye family is horrific. "Family defines us" might be the theme, except we know nothing about Phoenix or Apollo's upbringing. "Family relationships make for easy plot twists" might be it.
Re: What is the first games "theme"?Topic%20Title
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I was going to pass over this thread, since it didn't really seem to be going anywhere before (no offense to anyone) but then I saw it was FerdieLance that posted...

I really like those. They really do seem to fit very well.


...And they're not motifs xD
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