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The pairing debate thread!Topic%20Title
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So moe for Makoto it's funny.

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All right. We have the thread for your favorite pairings...

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1552

And the thread for your least favorite pairings...

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=844

Let's leave those threads to their own stated purposes. Not clutter them.

But part of the fun of shipping characters... is debating the ships! In friendly, intelligent discourse, of course.

Now, since this could easily get out of hand and cause the wonderful Croik and the Admin/Mod team some headaches... Let's establish some rules.

RULE #1:

Everybody is entitled to their opinion. Someone wants to ship Phoenix/Edgeworth, and you're a Phoenix/Fran sort of guy? That's FINE. Someone ships Jake/Lana, but you know that Lana and Neil are truly meant to be. That's fine too. If someone ships Hotti x Moe x Pearl, THAT'S FINE. You are not here to change peoples' minds, you are just here to have a friendly debate. Are we clear?



Rule #1.5:

On the same token, don't take it personally if someone disagrees with what you say or dislikes your certain favorite pairing. If someone comes in and says that s/he can't see Fran and Adrian together at all, and I'm going to get PERSONALLY OFFENDED HOW DARE THEY... I don't belong in this topic. Remember--we're discussing the theoretical and possible romantic relationships of fictional characters. Yes, it's Serious Business. But... relax.


Rule #2:

Keep it civil. Keep it friendly. Keep it as intelligible as possible. If you're going to come in here and spout, "omg edgeworth n pheonix cant b gay gay people suck PHEOXNIS / MAYA FORAVOR" or "wtf no u n00b thats like sick every1 nos that edgey and nick are meant 2 b!" then... uh... do us a favor and don't.

We're all friends here, or at the least, civil acquaintances. Show everyone else just as much respect as you'd like to be shown yourself.


Rule #3:

Seriously. Everyone's entitled to their bloody opinion. So remember that, just keep it calm, civil, and reasonable, and have fun. And then we shouldn't have any problems whatsoever.


So! Who wants to go first? :P
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Re: The pairing debate thread!Topic%20Title

Hug an Edgeworth today <3

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Ohhh Ohhh! Mee pick meeeee! *does first post dance* Um.... You could probaly tell who I ship by looking at my sig. I think PxE is really complicated, which makes it fun ^_^
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Thank you very much Deefunx for the sig ^_^
Re: The pairing debate thread!Topic%20Title
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So moe for Makoto it's funny.

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It is very complicated. And that is why it's fun.

It's not my -favorite- pairing, but I certainly like it... and if nothing else, the dynamic they have even just as friends or "rivals" is fantastic.
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Re: The pairing debate thread!Topic%20Title

Hug an Edgeworth today <3

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Yups ^_^ Glad you agree. I don't really understand the FxA pairing yet, though. Didn't they only meet once?
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Phoenix_fan wrote:
Yups ^_^ Glad you agree. I don't really understand the FxA pairing yet, though. Didn't they only meet once?


The number of times Kirio and Mei met is definitely more than just once, since, in GS3, Kirio remarks about Mei coming by to teach her how to use a whip, if I remember correctly.
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ROCK AND ROLL! HIGH SPEED!

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Oops Are half-serious pairings allowed?
My art thread!
My sprite thread! Calando in progress
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And my devart site
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Re: The pairing debate thread!Topic%20Title
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Built For The Kill

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Android 21 3/7 wrote:
Oops Are half-serious pairings allowed?


Even if they were, I wouldn't be able to defend my favorite half-serious pairing:

Odoroki x Older Ema

... Because GS4 spoilers aren't allowed. :/
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Re: The pairing debate thread!Topic%20Title
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So moe for Makoto it's funny.

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Of course half-serious pairings are allowed, if you want :P

And Phoenix Fan: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1552&start=23 That's why :D
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Re: The pairing debate thread!Topic%20Title

Hug an Edgeworth today <3

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Oooooooooooohhhhhhhh..... You see I haven't heard anything about the GS3 cases yet. Thanks for clearing it up ^_^
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Re: The pairing debate thread!Topic%20Title
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So moe for Makoto it's funny.

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No worries.

But you're right, we only see them meet that once. A lot of it is what they say about the other, or how they react to what the other does.
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Re: The pairing debate thread!Topic%20Title
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Worthy's Girl. Den Mother. PxE Shipper

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I said this already in the favourite pairings thread but I thought it was pretty darn good so I'd bring it back. :)

Phoenix / Edgy : In my book, these two belong together. I can see them being lovers as well as rivals (at least in the courtroom) and I think the pairing works for me for that reason. :) I can see them living and loving together like any other couple in love; heck, I can even see them enjoying tea in front of a fireplace, going on a date & walks in the Park, with or without Pess. :)

Phoenix is the heart of the pairing and Miles the head--they compliment each other's strengths and weaknesses (in my opinion) very well. Not only that, they do have a firm friendship, trust and respect for each other that is pretty clear. They are two halves of a very complicated whole. Definitely my favourite pairing. :)

Addenum: It's these little things that I can see them doing together which also makes the pairing appealing to me on another level. It also appeals to the romantic sentimental fool in me as well as the writer. :) I honestly don't think that Phoenix would have gone into law had he not had some feelings for Miles (I know I wouldn't); I guess that mere friendship-although I could be completely wrong about this as well-wouldn't be enough to make someone completely change their career plans. Unless I missed something which is entirely possible. :)

And when Miles was arrested for murder, he jumped to his defense and wanted to defend him. It's these little things that convince me there are stronger feelings involved here. :) Sometimes they butt heads but that's to be expected, given their personalities. Phoenix is the more gentle part and Miles the more aggressive but both works for the other, balancing each other perfectly. :)


*Not bad for 4 hours sleep and only one cup of coffee! :D *
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Last edited by EdgeworthFanGirl on Sat May 05, 2007 12:50 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Re: The pairing debate thread!Topic%20Title

Hug an Edgeworth today <3

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Wow. That is sooo true! I totally agree with everyone so far. Especially EdgeworthFanGirl ^_^
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Worthy's Girl. Den Mother. PxE Shipper

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Thank you, Phoenix Fan. Edgy I'm glad. Sometimes it's hard to put these kinds of feelings into words and PxE really does speak to me on a very deep level. :)

P.S. LOVE your avatar! It's so sweet! :)
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Re: The pairing debate thread!Topic%20Title

Hug an Edgeworth today <3

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Thanx you very muchness (Love yours, too ^_^)
Back on topic--
I must say that the Phoenix/Maya pairing doesn't speak out well to me. I feel they are more "Brother/sister protection lookout" thang. Y'know?
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Re: The pairing debate thread!Topic%20Title
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So moe for Makoto it's funny.

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I have to agree there. I LOVE the Phoenix/Maya relationship... the fact that they're so close, that she IS so important to him (and he to her)... it's absolutely adorable, and I adore what they have. I just... I can't see it as romantic. Especially given how Phoenix is always commenting on how immature or silly she is. That's fine and sort of sweet if you consider it a sibling relationship.... but becomes sort of scary and unhealthy in a romance (the exact same sort of 'feeling' as the airport scene, for me, if viewed in a romantic context)
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Re: The pairing debate thread!Topic%20Title

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Phoenix/Edgeworth? Why I love it to bits, even though it's one of the most hated pairings in the fandom~. I mean, it is over-popular, yet it's the only pairing the non-fans complain about. Whether they're "rivals" (I quote it since.. you know... I don't think they're that much of rivals, man. I don't think Phoenix fights with Edgey as bad as he does with Fransizka. Now Phoenix and Franny HATE each other. Not the other.) or guys with "nothing in common". Bah. I perosnally think it is lies, but people have their opinions. I am pretty sure these two have things in common way more than *cough*with Maya or Ema*cough* I think there could've been other ways to see Edgeworth again. I'm, sure even Phoenix knew that. So becoming a lawyer to see your friend again must mean something.
Case 4 in AA really won me over into this pairing as well. *nods* Some people don't see anything in the subtext, but I personally saw something.

My god, and Phoenix acted like a pissed off girlfriend whenever Maya mentioned Miles in JFA. It made me lol when he was all "Don't mention his name around me!" ...I knew Phoenix was going to be pissed.. but did he really have to go that far? well, I thought it was kinda cute, so... =P

Phoenix_fan wrote:
Thanx you very muchness (Love yours, too ^_^)
Back on topic--
I must say that the Phoenix/Maya pairing doesn't speak out well to me. I feel they are more "Brother/sister protection lookout" thang. Y'know?


Agreed. *nods* That's why I never got into Phoenix/Maya. OR Edgeworth/Maya.
I can never see Maya ever being serious in relationship. (Which is why I can only see her with Larry.) and being in one with Phoenix OR Edgeworth? I don't really personally buy it or think it's cute. They want lovers. Not someone to babysit. But that's just me. I like/want to see tension in a relationship every now and then. I don't think Phoenix/Maya or Edgeworth/Maya has that. But, like I said, that's just me. She just makes a cute little sister, in my books. o_o
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Last edited by Morinozuka Takashi on Sat May 05, 2007 1:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Re: The pairing debate thread!Topic%20Title
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CantFaketheFunk wrote:
I have to agree there. I LOVE the Phoenix/Maya relationship... the fact that they're so close, that she IS so important to him (and he to her)... it's absolutely adorable, and I adore what they have. I just... I can't see it as romantic. Especially given how Phoenix is always commenting on how immature or silly she is. That's fine and sort of sweet if you consider it a sibling relationship.... but becomes sort of scary and unhealthy in a romance (the exact same sort of 'feeling' as the airport scene, for me, if viewed in a romantic context)


I have to agree. Honestly, they picked probably the cutest little assistant for Phoenix to have (Besides Pearl, of course). I loved Ema too, but I like Maya just a tiny bit more.

Spoiler:
I was a bit let down she was only with me for one case in Justice for All. I missed her.

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Morinozuka Takashi wrote:
My god, and Phoenix acted like a pissed off girlfriend whenever Maya mentioned Miles in JFA. It made me lol when he was all "Don't mention his name around me!" ...I knew Phoenix was going to be pissed.. but did he really have to go that far? well, I thought it was kinda cute, so... =P


My feeling--this also surprised me when I played JFA through the first time and took some time to chew it over--is that he was scared, angry and hurt: scared because he really DID think that Miles was dead; angry, I'm sure, because he honestly thought that Miles had committed suicide and hurt when he finds out that Miles is still alive and wondering why he left in the first place (I suspect that Phoenix may have felt that Miles abandoned him and that would sting like anything.).

Feelings can be complicated things and this also proves to me that Phoenix does have deeper feelings for Edgeworth and there is intimacy there. To me, Phoenix's deep anger against Miles speaks of a hurt lover than of a friend; sure you would get really angry at your friend for abandoning you but Phoenix's anger feels very different and seems to be much more deep. I'd feel the same way in the same situation so I can see it. :) Just my take on it.

*Arrrghh! Having a hard time thinking! I hope this makes some sense....*
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Re: The pairing debate thread!Topic%20Title
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I can't really debate about PhoenixEdgeworth myself, because I totally see where the people who like it are coming from, and I agree that they have a special friendship/perfect working relationship. However, just me personally, I can't picture them cuddling in front of a fireplace. It's just a personal thing, so there's nothing for me to debate about, really.

HOWEVER, there is one thing that I'm curious about. When people talk about the PhoenixEdgeworth pairing, they usually bring up the fact that Phoenix went into law school and became a defense attorney just to meet Edgeworth. However, when I was playing through the first two games, this is not the impression I got. Sure, Phoenix did say once that that was the reason, but he said more times than that that he became an attorney to help people who were abandoned, to help those in need, to defend the weak, etc. Like in JFA when he told Edgeworth that the reason he became an attorney was because he'd believed in the things Edgeworth said as a kid about helping people. Also, once Phoenix meets Edgeworth he continues to be a defense attorney.

HOWEVER, I have not played GS3. In GS3, are there more lines about Phoenix becoming an attorney just for Edgeworth? Because I certainly don't deny that it was ONE of his reasons, but the first two games gave me the idea that it wasn't his MAIN reason, and I might have to revise that theory if he mentions it in GS3.

@CFTF: Lovely thread idea =) It got irritating when people in the favorite and least favorite pairing topics wanted to respond to each other but when they did it was off-topic and therefore ended up spammy and rude. This topic should fix that problem.
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So moe for Makoto it's funny.

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Well, he tells Mia outright he's doing it to save a friend after the 3-1 case...
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Re: The pairing debate thread!Topic%20Title
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Alright.

I don't hate Phoenix x Edgeworth but I don't like it because there's just so much of it that it's become overrated IMO. There are some nice fics of them, though, but it just... it bores me because it's so common.

I think Edgy x Maya Fey is an awesome couple. My OTP. ^^ (See essay I posted on the favorite PW pairings thread)

I also like Neil/Ema. Everyone talks about how much Jake/Lana ws implied in case 5... but what about Ema and Neil? He protected her from Darke, and I think that maybe she's nice to Jake because she liked Neil or something. (I really don't know how to defend this couple like I do Edgey/Maya) But I still think it would work.
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CantFaketheFunk wrote:
Well, he tells Mia outright he's doing it to save a friend after the 3-1 case...


Ah, alright then, in that case it probably WAS a large part of his motivation. My bad.

@1010: EdgeyxMaya is indeed cute =3 I'm usually not one for the "opposites attract" pairings but I must admit this pairing is adorableness to the twentithird power. Especially after reading your rant ^^

NeilxEma...? Hmm...I don't believe I ever considered that before o.o mostly because of the age difference. Ema during SL-9 was 14, right? and Neil was...well, he was older than Jake? And Jake would have been 31 during SL-9, so with NeilxEma Neil would have been twice her age? Anyway, I don't think there was a possibility that they got together, but I think the idea of Ema having a crush on him is cute ^^ And it's not out of the question either, since we've already seen that she gets crushes on older men.
Hm...and another angst dynamic to the ema/neil/lana/jake/angel web....
....Confusing Dx GodIlovecase5.
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Quote:
@1010: EdgeyxMaya is indeed cute =3 I'm usually not one for the "opposites attract" pairings but I must admit this pairing is adorableness to the twentithird power. Especially after reading your rant ^^

NeilxEma...? Hmm...I don't believe I ever considered that before o.o mostly because of the age difference. Ema during SL-9 was 14, right? and Neil was...well, he was older than Jake? And Jake would have been 31 during SL-9, so with NeilxEma Neil would have been twice her age? Anyway, I don't think there was a possibility that they got together, but I think the idea of Ema having a crush on him is cute ^^ And it's not out of the question either, since we've already seen that she gets crushes on older men.
Hm...and another angst dynamic to the ema/neil/lana/jake/angel web....
....Confusing Dx GodIlovecase5.


-Giggles- Yay. I made someone think it's cute! -high fives self-

I thought Neil was younger than Jake. =/ I only played case 5 like 3 times because of the length. It kinda annoyed me. (I've played case 4 of AA like 48764896543 times. xD Same goes for 2-4... which was long, too, but I adored it.) And I do like pedo stuff (PearlPhoenix-cough-) so I think Neil/Ema is cute. And maybe she just looked up to him and respected him and stuff. And maybe he just looked out for her because her parents were gone and all she had was Lana... so maybe he was like a father figure to her instead of a lover? Either way is cute IMO. ^^
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1010 wrote:
Quote:
@1010: EdgeyxMaya is indeed cute =3 I'm usually not one for the "opposites attract" pairings but I must admit this pairing is adorableness to the twentithird power. Especially after reading your rant ^^

NeilxEma...? Hmm...I don't believe I ever considered that before o.o mostly because of the age difference. Ema during SL-9 was 14, right? and Neil was...well, he was older than Jake? And Jake would have been 31 during SL-9, so with NeilxEma Neil would have been twice her age? Anyway, I don't think there was a possibility that they got together, but I think the idea of Ema having a crush on him is cute ^^ And it's not out of the question either, since we've already seen that she gets crushes on older men.
Hm...and another angst dynamic to the ema/neil/lana/jake/angel web....
....Confusing Dx GodIlovecase5.


-Giggles- Yay. I made someone think it's cute! -high fives self-

I thought Neil was younger than Jake. =/ I only played case 5 like 3 times because of the length. It kinda annoyed me. (I've played case 4 of AA like 48764896543 times. xD Same goes for 2-4... which was long, too, but I adored it.) And I do like pedo stuff (PearlPhoenix-cough-) so I think Neil/Ema is cute. And maybe she just looked up to him and respected him and stuff. And maybe he just looked out for her because her parents were gone and all she had was Lana... so maybe he was like a father figure to her instead of a lover? Either way is cute IMO. ^^


Hmm...oh, you're right about the age. Neil was 27 according to court-records...my bad ^^;

hah, I've played case 1-5 7679688678689 times xD; Because of the characters mostly. Too...much...evidence...

I must admit to having noticed PearlPhoenix myself. Especially when they were talking to Adrian. "Mr. Nick, calm down, I'll give you a backrub to relieve your stress later, okay?" *shotforthinkingaboutthatinapervyway*
I'm sick and twisted, what >>;

Aha, I like the idea of Neil looking out for and entertaining Ema while Lana was busy x3 Cute. A father figure would work...wait, so that would be like Neil being her daddy and Lana being her mommy? *giggle*
Either way is indeed cute ^^

For the sake of discussion most certainly not for the sake of pimping out my pairing what: EdgeyxLana? Thoughts? Anyone? Would give my own thoughts but already ranted about it on the favorite pairings thread >>;
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Yeah, it is interesting how he's still a lawyer even though he finally sees Edgeworth again. But if he were to quit after, then there'd be no PW: 2 or PW: 3. I'm sure his belief in helping people who can't help themselves is quite strong, too. *nods*

Edgey and Maya's age difference is just as bad as Phoenix/Maya's age difference.
Maybe that's also why it never warmed up to me.... *is not into pedo-stuff*

Also the fact the only thing they seem to share in common is a liking for Steel Samurai. From what I see. All I saw was a guy who has A LOT of trouble saying 'thank you' after what she did. (or to ANYONE for that, matter. Even Phoenix. Especially after how he took his case.) Hell, even though I hate that girl with a passion, I'd still have a hard time saying 'thank you' if she were to help me in a sitation like he was in, in case 4: AA....
I saw no hints of a crush or anything. But that's just me. O.o


Oh? Edge/Lana? ..Well, if Phoenix/Mia was still able to work out.. (which it can't anymore.. *sigh* I so would've been a fan of that pairing.) I probably would've loved to see Edgeworth/Lana~. But since Mia's dead... I'm afraid I'll always be a Edgey/Phoenix fan.

I can't really like it now since that would mean I'd have to pair Phoenix up with Maya. or Ema.. and... I don't like my Phoenix with teenage girls who are close to/just turned 18.

And as much as I like the thought of Phoenix/Franziska, we all know it'd probably never work out, anyway.... Not to mention she is Maya's age, too. "Let's not be hypocrites", I'll say to myself. =P
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SilverZephyr wrote:
For the sake of discussion most certainly not for the sake of pimping out my pairing what: EdgeyxLana? Thoughts? Anyone? Would give my own thoughts but already ranted about it on the favorite pairings thread >>;



I just re-played 1-5 with Lana / Edgeworth on the brain, so I shall bite.

Pros: Edgeworth said that he thought that Lana was "looking out" for him and seems hurt/bitter that Lana apparently killed someone in his car (heck if Angel hadn't been there, it's entirely possible the whole thing would have been pinned on Edgeworth). He also doesn't want to prosecute her.

When Nick speaks to Lana near the end of the case, she has been talking to Edgeworth and she is "jealous" of him--although it's a little ambiguous as to whether she's jealous of Nick being so close to Mia or that Edgeworth has been speaking so highly of Nick (in his roundabout way, of course).

Cons: Lana knows the rumors about Edgeworth. She also knows that in a way they are true, and she is responsible for that fact. That would be hanging over her head constantly, and in that regard the whole relationship is based on deceit and to a degree, pity. Edgeworth meanwhile, is still privately torn up about DL-6. If it's one thing they have in common, it's the "chains" that bind them to their pasts (and evil overlords).

I don't see Lana/Edgeworth as being a very melancholy relationship, and mostly physical. During the time that they work together, they've both bottled up their emotions and put on a cold front to everyone around them. They're both trying to escape themselves and would possibly use each other in that regard. I also don't see it lasting past 1-5, as Lana's deceit is exposed and sends Edgeworth into a tailspin of soul-searching melodrama. And my fangirl brain says that Edgeworth is now emotionally much closer to Phoenix.
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hyacynth wrote:
SilverZephyr wrote:
For the sake of discussion most certainly not for the sake of pimping out my pairing what: EdgeyxLana? Thoughts? Anyone? Would give my own thoughts but already ranted about it on the favorite pairings thread >>;



I just re-played 1-5 with Lana / Edgeworth on the brain, so I shall bite.

Pros: Edgeworth said that he thought that Lana was "looking out" for him and seems hurt/bitter that Lana apparently killed someone in his car (heck if Angel hadn't been there, it's entirely possible the whole thing would have been pinned on Edgeworth). He also doesn't want to prosecute her.

When Nick speaks to Lana near the end of the case, she has been talking to Edgeworth and she is "jealous" of him--although it's a little ambiguous as to whether she's jealous of Nick being so close to Mia or that Edgeworth has been speaking so highly of Nick (in his roundabout way, of course).

Cons: Lana knows the rumors about Edgeworth. She also knows that in a way they are true, and she is responsible for that fact. That would be hanging over her head constantly, and in that regard the whole relationship is based on deceit and to a degree, pity. Edgeworth meanwhile, is still privately torn up about DL-6. If it's one thing they have in common, it's the "chains" that bind them to their pasts (and evil overlords).

I don't see Lana/Edgeworth as being a very melancholy relationship, and mostly physical. During the time that they work together, they've both bottled up their emotions and put on a cold front to everyone around them. They're both trying to escape themselves and would possibly use each other in that regard. I also don't see it lasting past 1-5, as Lana's deceit is exposed and sends Edgeworth into a tailspin of soul-searching melodrama. And my fangirl brain says that Edgeworth is now emotionally much closer to Phoenix.

*spoiler warning*

I pretty much agree. After case 5 there isn't much room for a relationship anyway. Lana is in jail, Edgeworth is off somewhere else, and we have no idea what Lana has been doing afterwards so anything with Lana past case 5 would be mostly speculation. A relationship after she gets out of jail would be rather awkward, to say the least, especially considering how much they both changed in character after that. I see EdgeworthxLana the same way I see PhoenixMia--It would be ADORABLE if it could work out, but the same way that PhoenixMia is hard to fit in between KaminogixMia and ThinkerxMia, EdgeworthxLana is also hard to fit in between JakexLana (which is less canon than KaminogixMia, but still) (and GantxLana? considering he was blackmailing her, creepy molestation isn't too out of the question Dx) and JailxLana. I still think that in the time frame that it could work, it would be beautiful, but it would be difficult. Plus, like you said, they're both caught up in their own pasts and development. I think they could be great for helping each other through those pasts and developments, but it's just so hard to fit that in time-wise :/
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Re: The pairing debate thread!Topic%20Title

Alone

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Ok, here's my slash of mind.

Nick / Franziska


She has a great obssesion with Phoenix.
He is the one who defeated Edgeworth, and mangaed to defeat her too.

She has a need to prove herself to him, that's why in Case 4 , even after 2 consecutive losses, sh still tries to win.
A way to prove herself, she simply wants his attentions or perhaps wants not to feel inferior to him?
Who knows.

Also, during court cases, whenever Nick slightly (or majorly slips up), he'd whip him before finishing the sentence.
Perhaps it's the fact that she doesn't want her image of him to be soiled.

Finally, why would she
Spoiler:
hide Maya's drawing in the card? Possibly she was feeling threatened by Maya, or simply didn't Want Phoenix to see it and get any weird ideas.


Of course, what I have siad till now is about Franzisca's/Mei's side.

As for Phoenix, well, he was genuinely concerned when she was shot (but who wouldn't), and in a postive way or not, he is scared ny Franzisca. My argument kinda falls when it comes to Phoenix's side...

But both Maya and Fraz have something in common...6 years younger .
Guess Phoenix wants them fresh.
Re: The pairing debate thread!Topic%20Title

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SilverZephyr wrote:
I see EdgeworthxLana the same way I see PhoenixMia--It would be ADORABLE if it could work out, but the same way that PhoenixMia is hard to fit in between KaminogixMia and ThinkerxMia, EdgeworthxLana is also hard to fit in between JakexLana (which is less canon than KaminogixMia, but still) (and GantxLana? considering he was blackmailing her, creepy molestation isn't too out of the question Dx) and JailxLana. I still think that in the time frame that it could work, it would be beautiful, but it would be difficult. Plus, like you said, they're both caught up in their own pasts and development. I think they could be great for helping each other through those pasts and developments, but it's just so hard to fit that in time-wise :/


Well for Lana / Edgeworth there's two whole years to work with. Edgeworth only started working with her after the SL-9 case was handed to him upon Neil Marshall's death. After that, Lana distances herself from Jake, so I'm not seeing much of a conflict.
Re: The pairing debate thread!Topic%20Title
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First of all, no hard feelings of course and you can believe whatever you want, this is obviously just me expressing my opinion--it IS a debate thread ^^;

JamMasterJim wrote:
Ok, here's my slash of mind.

Nick / Franziska


She has a great obssesion with Phoenix.
He is the one who defeated Edgeworth, and mangaed to defeat her too.


So you're saying she loves him...because he defeated her and she wants to defeat him more than anything? Rather large leap in my opinion.
Quote:
She has a need to prove herself to him, that's why in Case 4 , even after 2 consecutive losses, sh still tries to win.
A way to prove herself, she simply wants his attentions or perhaps wants not to feel inferior to him?
Who knows.

That's funny, I was under the impression that she was trying to prove herself to EDGEWORTH and get the attention of EDGEWORTH and defeat EDGEWORTH? I don't see what that all has to do with Phoenix.
Quote:
Also, during court cases, whenever Nick slightly (or majorly slips up), he'd whip him before finishing the sentence.
Perhaps it's the fact that she doesn't want her image of him to be soiled.


Or because she's annoyed at his being a foolish fool and foolishly wasting her time?
If it WAS because she didn't want her image of him to be soiled, the reason behind that would be that she wanted to believe that her family was defeated by a talented person, not because she was in love with him.
Quote:
Finally, why would she
Spoiler:
hide Maya's drawing in the card? Possibly she was feeling threatened by Maya, or simply didn't Want Phoenix to see it and get any weird ideas.


I have my own theory about that, and I think it's a good theory.
Spoiler:
Right before this scene, she had been about to give up. She had decided she would never prosecute again. Perhaps she was even considering going into hiding or killing herself. But Edgeworth changed her mind. When she was holding that card and saying she would give the card back to Phoenix, what I thought she was saying was that she would not give up, she would continue to prosecute, she would continue her life, and she would continue until she won. This scene was more about Franziska's character development than her liking Phoenix.

Quote:
Of course, what I have siad till now is about Franzisca's/Mei's side.

As for Phoenix, well, he was genuinely concerned when she was shot (but who wouldn't), and in a postive way or not, he is scared ny Franzisca. My argument kinda falls when it comes to Phoenix's side...


Spoiler:
Of course he was concerned. She was SHOT. At first he didn't even know WHERE she was shot, so far all he knew it was in a potentially fatal part of her body. When he brought her the flowers in the hospital, I thought it was sort of an apology rather than a show of affection. Remember that de Killer basically told Phoenix that Phoenix was the reason that Franziska was shot, so I'm sure he felt guilty about it. Doesn't mean he loves her, it means he's a decent person.


I already ranted about PhoenixFranziska in the Least Favorite Pairings thread, but in summary:
She blames him for ruining her family and her life, and he hates everything she stands for and hates that she's self-absorbed and immature. They don't care about each other as people. Only as rivals in court.

All my opinion, of course ^^
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Re: The pairing debate thread!Topic%20Title
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double post whoops >>
hyacynth wrote:
SilverZephyr wrote:
I see EdgeworthxLana the same way I see PhoenixMia--It would be ADORABLE if it could work out, but the same way that PhoenixMia is hard to fit in between KaminogixMia and ThinkerxMia, EdgeworthxLana is also hard to fit in between JakexLana (which is less canon than KaminogixMia, but still) (and GantxLana? considering he was blackmailing her, creepy molestation isn't too out of the question Dx) and JailxLana. I still think that in the time frame that it could work, it would be beautiful, but it would be difficult. Plus, like you said, they're both caught up in their own pasts and development. I think they could be great for helping each other through those pasts and developments, but it's just so hard to fit that in time-wise :/


Well for Lana / Edgeworth there's two whole years to work with. Edgeworth only started working with her after the SL-9 case was handed to him upon Neil Marshall's death. After that, Lana distances herself from Jake, so I'm not seeing much of a conflict.


Hmm...you're right about that. I forgot that he hadn't worked with her before SL-9...or had he? I remember him saying he hadn't worked with Gant before that, but I don't remember if he said anything about Lana.
Anyway, in those two years she was cold and being manipulated by Gant, but a relationship would still be possible I think, just kind of difficult, maybe. But I think she still had her warm moments in those two years, especially based on how Edgeworth described her. She probably was especially cold to Ema because she was too ashamed of herself, but Edgeworth was in a similar situation to her so she might have been a bit more willing to face up to what she did to him than to anyone else.
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Re: The pairing debate thread!Topic%20Title
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SilverZephyr wrote:
HOWEVER, I have not played GS3. In GS3, are there more lines about Phoenix becoming an attorney just for Edgeworth? Because I certainly don't deny that it was ONE of his reasons, but the first two games gave me the idea that it wasn't his MAIN reason, and I might have to revise that theory if he mentions it in GS3.


In GS3 Phoenix blatantly comes out and says Edgeworth is the reason he's a defense attorney, which Edgeworth also acknowledges. He tells Mia he wants to save a friend. In GS1 he says he became an attorney because then Edgeworth would HAVE to face him, even in court.

-Phoenix
I wanted to meet him, to
learn why he had become
who he became.

-Phoenix
That's when I decided.

-Maya
...!

-Maya
Wait... You don't mean...?

-Maya
That's why!?

-Maya
That's why you became
a defense attorney!?
To meet Edgeworth!?

-Phoenix
If I was a defense attorney,
I knew he'd have to meet me
whether he wanted to or not.


He BECAME an attorney to save Edgeworth. He had a different major in college, wasn't planning on going into law at all. He STAYS an attorney to help people. That's my prespective on the situation.
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Re: The pairing debate thread!Topic%20Title
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A bit of exponding on Phoenix / Edgeworth ~

musouka has already made an amazing post about these two and their dynamic in-game, so I suppose I'll take a slightly different route.

I was never one who was very big on the "het"/"yaoi"/"yuri" pairing classifications. For me, a pairing is a pairing is a pairing--if there's a spark there, I'd like to think that I can take notice and acknowledge it regardless of the gender of the characters involved. The characters and the nuances of the relationship in itself is what matters to me, what the characters in question show in regards to each other - the type of plumbing they have is more or less irrelevent.

For perspective - think about Phoenix and Edgeworth's story for a second. Think about how it would come off if you changed nothing about it - not the dialogue, not the characters themselves, not their situations or their actions - but simply flipped it so that one of the two was a woman. For the purposes of this example, Phoenix.

A lonely little girl, who is a bit of a crybaby, is turned on by her classmates for a crime she didn't commit. But a boy steps up to her defense and stands up for her; when the girl recounts this memory, even more than a decade later, she describes it as being saved by the boy. She never forgets it, even when the others who were there have. In any event, they become close friends - until suddenly, without warning, the boy vanishes. The girl grows up never knowing what happened to him.

But then, more than ten years later, she sees his name and face in the newspaper. She desperately tries, repeatedly, to get into contact with him. He ignores her, but she will not be stopped. She drops all of her own plans for her future career and decides to take up his, just for a chance to meet him again so she might be able to help him.

She succeeds now where she didn't before. She meets the boy in his place of work, but he acts very cold and demeaning towards her, not acknowledging their past friendship. But when she shows herself to be talented in her own right, besting him at work, he becomes flustered. Suddenly, he's unable to stop himself from helping her even when it's to his own detriment. His coworkers describe his fixation on the girl in his own time. He stares out the window, moody and distracted. He walks around muttering her name to himself over and over. He pulls her aside and tells her he wishes they had never met again because she burdens him with "unnecessary feelings".

Then, of course, the boy lands himself in serious trouble. He's been framed for murder. The girl is determined to save him, no matter what. She snaps angrily at even her closest friends when they question his innocence--even when all evidence and logic are pointing straight to the fact that he is guilty. She proclaims that only she knows the real him, that only she is able to help him. She laments about the fact that he is suffering and alone. She thinks to herself that her entire life has led up to this day of protecting him. As for the boy? He admits that the girl was the one person he especially never wanted to know about his dark past.

She manages to save his life, but troubles aren't over for she and the boy yet. By chance, they both become involved in a nearly impossible murder mystery that initially confounds them both. But over time, even facing someone as powerful as the Chief of Police as their enemy, they learn to work together and only together, trusting each other, are they able to solve the case and put away the perpetrator. Emphasis is placed on this. A supporting character, once it's all over, reassures the boy that he is not alone - he has the girl. The girl reflects back on all of the people she cares for and who have supported her - and the boy is the only one among them who gets special prominence at the end of the montage.

This is covering the first game alone. And it might just be me, but this really reads like a very typical love story to me - several of the cues are there. And I can't help but keep reading it that way even though the "girl" in the story is not, in fact, a girl, but a man named Phoenix Wright. I don't see what that's supposed to change, if the actions are the same, the motivations are the same, and the words are the same. Perhaps that does change something for some. It doesn't for me.

Of course, it's not canon, and the relationship as it is anyway, no matter what the plumbing involved, won't and doesn't appeal to some people in a romantic sense, which is perfectly fine. But - I do believe that, yes, there is a basis there; there is a measure of ambiguity as to the exact nature of what's between them. They are friends, and that is important, but there's also something deeper and more complex at play. Does that necessarily mean being in love? No, not really. But I, personally, can't help but think that there is certainly the potential for that there, if nothing else, with the intensity and singularity of the feelings displayed.
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Re: The pairing debate thread!Topic%20Title

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To Silver Zephyr:

I guess you are right.
By using common logic, Phoenix/Franzisca pairing is one of the more farfetched ones.

I just still (like to) think that her obsession for Phoenix is rooted somewhere else too apart from the von Karma name et cetera.
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I posted an short essay in the Favorite PW Pairings thread. But i'll post here too.

Phoenix x Ayame is an adorable couple, and is cannon. (Spoiler reasons)

(If anyone wants to debate this, please read my essay-thingy. It's on the favorite PW pairings thread. Contains major GS3 spoilers)
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I might get slaughtered for this but...


I hate Lana/Neil.

1. We don't even KNOW Neil.
2. Lana didn't show much sadness/angst about Neil's death. She didn't even care when she walked into the crime scene. She only cared about Ema.
3. He's dead.

JAKE/LANA and EDGEY/LANA

FOREVER.
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1010 wrote:
I posted an short essay in the Favorite PW Pairings thread. But i'll post here too.

Phoenix x Ayame is an adorable couple, and is cannon. (Spoiler reasons)

(If anyone wants to debate this, please read my essay-thingy. It's on the favorite PW pairings thread. Contains major GS3 spoilers)


I’m happy this thread was made, because I’ve been meaning to do this for a long time. I’ve wanted to debate the current canonicity of Phoenix and Ayame. Ironically, it looks like I picked exactly the right time.

I am of the strong belief that, while Phoenix and Ayame shared an honestly deep and passionate love when they were young college students—and a relationship I genuinely love as a fan—they have absolutely no future together as a couple. And I think the game supports me on this.

This is not because I “hate” Ayame. I ADORE Ayame. All you have to do is ask Raelle or Funk, or better yet look at my avatar. She is my darling, I find her incredibly interesting. I want her to be happy. But I don’t think that’s possible with Phoenix.

Spoiler: GS3
You see, I think the entire crux of the relationship in 3-5 is not that Phoenix must be with Ayame to be happy; it’s that he must be able to move on from Ayame to be happy. That he must be able to find closure over what happened with Chinami, to discover the truth. And Ayame gives him that in one of the most beautiful scenes in the entire series.

But part of what makes it so special in the first place is that it’s a bittersweet, intensely beautiful goodbye.

Phoenix and Ayame can never recapture what they had. So let’s take a look at what they did have. Phoenix was willing to lie for her, even when he thought “she” was guilty of murder. He was willing to risk death for her. Ayame was willing to kill to protect him, even if she had to die in the process. That is incredibly powerful.

It’s also unhealthy. It is an immature form of love, where two people become the center of the world. To Phoenix, there was no one more important than Ayame. To Ayame, Phoenix was even more important than the sister that had ruled her life for so long. But, Phoenix didn’t care about who got hurt because of that. He didn’t care that in his lying on the stand, he could very well let a killer walk free. He even went to far as to attack Mia in order to save “Chi-chan”.

Ayame and Phoenix brought out the BEST in one another, towards one another. But in doing that, the rest of the world ceased to matter to them.

There is also no getting away from the fact that their relationship was built on a lie. Phoenix didn’t know Ayame as she was, he thought she was “Chinami”. Ayame, for all her love of him, never told him. Those powerful feelings were genuine, but their basis was not. Ayame is aware of this. She tells Edgeworth “I know him, but he doesn’t know me”. This is why she doesn’t want to tell Phoenix the truth. At least without him knowing, she can continue lying to herself that what they had was real. But if she tells him and he rejects her? It’s broken beyond repair.

And, instead, Phoenix reaffirms what they had was real. He was within his rights to reject her, and instead he acknowledged her. He gave her a gift she didn’t even DREAM of hoping for. That is why she cries when he says that he always had faith in her.

I’m going to go into Godot for a moment. This is important. The issue with Godot is his inability to move on from the past. The past hangs around his neck; it weighs him down. He can’t get over Mia and what they had. Phoenix, at the beginning of 3-5 is much the same way. Even after seeing Chinami for himself, he still can’t quite believe that it was the woman he loved.

He goes to Hazakurain not to rekindle a love, he goes to find answers. He, unlike Godot, faces his past. And that is what allows him to say goodbye to Ayame, and keep what they had intact. They might not be able to go back, but that memory will no longer hurt. It will bring warmth, the warmth of knowing that they once shared a love that powerful. That’s a gift not a lot of people can claim.

I have stated time and time again through this that Phoenix and Ayame can’t go back. Why is this? Phoenix has changed.

Phoenix is no longer able to make Ayame the center of his world like he did before. His world has expanded too far beyond that. He has a family, friends, that would never let him be that selfish. His responsibilities are too numerous and important for him to ever get caught up in a love like that again. And…he and Ayame have grown too far apart. His home is no longer her home. His goals no longer have a place for her. He can make room for her in his life, but he can’t build his life around her like he might have been able to before.

Ayame is very much the same as she was, but that’s because she’s been unable to move on. Her love for Phoenix has trapped her in time. She still loves him even now, but she’s afraid to face him, afraid that she might be broken by him. But by affirming their feelings and letting her go, Phoenix allows her to move on. She is free now. And, a part of her will always love him, but she doesn’t have to cling to it desperately, to protect it with all her might. He already validated her.

I am going to quote a line from Phoenix. It is probably THE most important quote in regards to their relationship:

“Let me say one thing. You really are the person I believed you were. Even after "Chinami Miyanagi" received the guilty verdict...I still believed in you. “

Did you notice something? He only has one thing to say to her. Not “many things”. And his one thing is that he always believed in her, that she was the person he thought she was. Not that he loves her, not that he is still in love with her.

But, him telling her that he knew her, that he had faith in her, that their love was real? That’s a far more precious gift than “I love you”. She allowed him to move on. He validated her and set her free.

And that loses all power if you see it as a validation of a current relationship. Phoenix/Ayame is so wonderful and amazing because it was fleeting. Because it was a part of the past that has no future. Because the fire could die, but they can still warm themselves by the embers and be happy.

And then, after everything is over, Phoenix goes into the lobby, where his friends and loved ones are waiting. As Raelle said: A little bit stronger and more at peace with himself than he was before. He doesn’t think about her again, he doesn’t have to think about her again.

It was beautiful. It was goodbye.

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Re: The pairing debate thread!Topic%20Title

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Again, Musouka-san has come with good reasons and a excellent point. *nods* *thumbs up*

That is why I personally scoffed when some fanbrats try to use that pairing as an excuse to try to tell me "Phoenix isn't gay". But that's a whole other topic I'll save for a proper thread.
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chief_skye4444 wrote:
I might get slaughtered for this but...


I hate Lana/Neil.

1. We don't even KNOW Neil.
2. Lana didn't show much sadness/angst about Neil's death. She didn't even care when she walked into the crime scene. She only cared about Ema.
3. He's dead.

JAKE/LANA and EDGEY/LANA

FOREVER.


I mostly agree with this ^^ I wouldn't go so far as to hate the pairing, but on closer expection it makes little sense :/
Another thing to consider: When Angel was describing the investigation of SL-9, she said something along the lines of
"Lana was especially concerned for Jake. When Neil died, she felt as if she had lost her own brother. Jake was desperate to find out the truth behind his brother's death. Seeing Jake like that made Lana all the more worried."
OKAY, THAT WAS AWFUL PARAPHRASING TO THE EXTREME. That isn't actually what she said, but those were the points that she made. This part showed me two things:
-Lana was a very caring person.
-Lana was very concerned for Jake.
-Angel mentioned nothing about Lana losing her lover. Angel is the one who dispenses the "juicy, sordid secrets" of things usually (I'd give a few examples but I'm rather braindead right now) so I find it hard to imagine that if Lana and Neil were an item, Angel would have hid this fact. She had no reason to. She mostly talked about Lana in regards to Jake, and said something about Lana feeling like she lost her own brother. Especially if Jake and Lana really HAD been an item, and based on their jobs and the picture of Neil/Lana/Gant lined up, I think that Neil and Lana definitely knew each other and were perhaps close, but I don't think they were lovers.

Anway, just my thoughts on the matter and mostly conjecture, but that's how I see things.

Musouka, your pairing rant is lovely as usual, and I am now thoroughly convinced that PhoenixAyame is a beautiful, beautiful relationship. However, I am also convinced that it is in the past, and they aren't going to go back to it.
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