Out of pure curiosity, what are your Top 3 dumbest things you think happened in the Gyakuten Saiban/Ace Attorney series? Doesn't matter what it was, was it something a character said, a character themselves or something in any part of the game. Was it something so stupid that it makes you cringe just thinking about it?

Heck, if you know more or less, you can list, those, too. But to prevent this from being too much, let's say it has to be kind of a big thing to happen that makes you cry out, "That is so stupid!" And please be kind enough to give at least a little explanation on why you think it's so stupid, not just list it and leave.

#3 Consulting a Medium for DL-6 (DL-6/1-4)
Ignoring the entire part of calling in a spirit medium to consult the deceased and get their testimony and how this should somehow hold up in court, bringing in the medium for DL-6 was unnecessary to begin with. We learn that DL-6 was a case where the defendant charged with the murder was the only one who could have killed the victim, so why even bring in a medium?

#2 Thinking Machi is the Murderer (4-3)
A child of that size, and inept at using firearms, would be impossible to have shot a .45 gun and end up with not a single injury. Along with the idea of him being capable of moving a 6 Foot corpse with any kind of speed. I believe this was an extreme low-point of competence from the police, even by the series' standards of police work.

#1 Taking the Photo of the Steel Samurai seriously (1-3)
I admit, it was an extremely close call for me what to put at number one between this and Machi. Anyone taking even a second to look at that photograph will know that it shows the Steel Samurai, a costume which not only hides the body but also the face, hair and any other defining feature. And the way everybody acted like that photo was such a great piece of evidence.

C-A

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That's a good list. My top 3 are actually all from the exact same cases/incidents.

#3: Borginia not Manufacturing Cures for Incuritis and shipping them to those who need it.

Yeah, so the Borginian cocoons can be made into a deadly poison. So why not just have the Borginian government manufacture the cures and then ship them out to those who need them? Or, if a poison can be made from the cure as well, ship them to a foreign nation's government and allow for treatment under federal supervision? The logic behind holding the cures is just silly, especially since there are already numerous poisons that can kill people instantly out there. If people were really going to go crazy killing each other with a posion, they would already be doing so.

Unless it turns its victims into Zombies, in which case I can understand.

#2: Mister Monkey Shenanigans

I think this one is the cause of the stupidest penalty I've ever received in any AA game. The incredibly lame excuse that "since Mr. Monkey fell over, no one could move from Studio 2"is stupid for way too many reasons to account. First off, the people could easily have just gone through the trees around the path (which Cody Hackins later is confirmed to have done), but for some reason that is ruled as impossible, and later it turns out that people actually DID leave Studio 2 anyway via a van. I'm guessing that the police somehow missed the van as well. *Sigh*

#1: Misty Fey having her reputation trashed for Yogi being found innocent.

This one continues to make no sense to me til this day. Misty Fey channels Gregory Edgeworth, who accuses Yanni Yogi, who then is found innocent because Robert Hammond throws together a strong insanity plea case (in other words, Yogi admits he did it, but is set free because he was insane at the time due to oxygen depravation). So why in the world does Misty Fey get her reputation trashed? As far as everyone knew, her channeling did reveal the actual murderer...so why is she called a fraud? The guy was insane? Does picking the correct murderer not mean anything if it turns out he was insane as well? This one just makes no flipping clue to me.

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Can I just say one thing? The one who first presented that photo was Phoenix, as proof that Oldbag could not have seen Will Powers. Oldbag tries to claim that the "limping" means it's Powers. The court and Gumshoe never treated it as "such a great piece of evidence." Only Oldbag did. It's mentioned when the photo is first found.:

And if you're asking why Oldbag did that, it's because she has a bias for Jack Hammer and a grudge against Powers for "stealing his screen time."

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First it's Oldbag mentioning that she saw Will Powers pass by, when we talk to Gumshoe later, he says her testimony included the picture of the Steel Samurai walking by. So when we see that picture, we already know that it's the Steel Samurai and not a good piece of evidence to nail Powers. When brought into court, Edgeworth practically freaks out over the photo.
Maybe they don't see it as a great piece of evidence, I worded that wrongly, but more like... they go on and on about that in the case. "Hey, is that Powers? He wears the outfit. So that must mean it is him in that picture, right? What do you think? Well, Powers, is this you?" why didn't they just burn that damn thing, given as how it didn't do anything in terms of getting Powers declared guilty or innocent.

C-A

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1. Being forced to confront Von Karma about the letter in the Records Room (1-4)
Need I say any more? I cringe whenever I have to replay this part. "So, we finally have a suspect in the case, and it just so happens to be the current prosecutor! Clearly we should go to this secluded room and show him all this cool evidence against him we found!"

I mean even if Von Karma chose not to attack Nick and Maya, telling him what you know still means losing the element of surprise against a prosecutor that's known to forge evidence and reports. They had literally nothing to gain from talking to him. Say nothing about Von Karma even getting away with what he did. The game tries to justify it beforehand by saying "Everyone must be busy with the investigation, this place is nearly empty!" but come on now, it's a police station. They really have no security camera or guards posted?

I can't think of any more off the top of my head, but I'll number it anyway because I'm sure I'll come up with more eventually.

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Granted, Phoenix did the exact same thing in 1-3 and 1-2, minus Maya, and it proved to him that he really shouldn't do that. I guess here it's just worse because, well, he hasn't learned his lesson. Or the fact that Phoenix and Maya choose to not file charges against von Karma for physical assault or even think of filling out a report, at the least.
Definitely a dumb moment, but I guess it would be somewhere around number 6 or 8 when thinking of Top 10 dumbest moments in the game actually scratch that, I think Top 10 Dumbest things in GS could be easily filled out with 1-3 things alone.

C-A

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I've found a new number to put into my list!

#9 - The introduction of Contempt of Court (1-4)
Allow me to quote VideoGameRecaps on this, because Jeanne said it pretty well when she recapped the first Day of Trial during that case. Altered slightly, to remove the hilarious, satyrical take that everybody in the Ace Attorney games is gay, Phoenix, Butz and Edgeworth having had Soap Opera-esque intimate relationships with each other, the intense love of fuchsia on murderers' clothes and similar.
"Contempt of court"? The Ace Attorney universe actually has something called contempt of court? This entire court is in contempt of court. So far in just this game, we have witnessed toupee throwing, mouth foaming, death threats, defendant switching, doctored evidence, wardrobe malfunctions, blackmail, excessive perjury, channeling of dead people, and a prosecutor openly insulting the judge. All of these have passed without comment. But suddenly, pressing a witness on her crap testimony is not okay? I call bullshit. This contempt of court thing has to be something von Karma just made up to intimidate Phoenix.
Which she's right about. Where did that come from? Why was that never introduced in the previous cases or any of the cases to come afterwards? I know it's a thing that really exists, my Ace Attorney comicstrips make reference to similar shenanigans of my character constantly getting fined for her bad language when agitated, but putting it into the game itself really does sound like something that was hastily invented by Karma, just to prove what a dick he is.

And same thing goes for that Evidence Law introduced in 1-5 only. If they want to have these restrictions in the Gameplay by introducting proper law rules, they should make sure they appear more than once in the game, otherwise it is nothing more than a throw-away gag to me. Take whichever way you think I meant 'gag'.

C-A

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As for Phoenix telling von Karma that he had evidence against him: Worst of all is that Phoenix didn't learn anything from it. In fact he does something similiar in 3-3 again. He tells Tigre about the evidence and even shows it! Why in the world did he do THAT?! Phoenix was lucky enough for Gumshoe coming in the right time, but still it was a very stupid and dangerous move. Hopefully he doesn't do that when an armed person is aiming at him and asking whether he knew something or not.

Anyway, it was the same stupid move. Getting electroshocked by von Karma wasn't enough as it seems. Hell no! He has to show Tigre the evidence and was almost beaten up for that. Maybe there are other similiar situations, but I can't think of any right now.

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The entirety of 4-3.

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Admittedly, the way those rules were implemented gets under my skin too. I'm generally okay with the games making up their own take on laws and such but in a series where the whole point is being a lawyer, there needs to be some consistency. Bringing up things like "evidence law" and "contempt of court" as it's convenient for the plot and ignoring them afterwards is just sloppy writing.

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Yup, the exact problem of it.
You know what I would like? An Ace Attorney game that is full-on with Real Life law, including the restrictions of Evidence Law, Contempt of Court, the various gray areas of Murder, Homicide, Self-Defense, Bodily Harm with Fatal Consequences, Chain of Custody and all that stuff. And I'm serious about that, I think that would be a really interesting game to play, if you have to know your way around things and stuff. And maybe give us Cases that aren't so freaking dumb... speaking of freaking dumb...

#6 - Entire Premise of Dustin Prince's Trial (2-1)
Yeah, it's an introductory case, it's supposed to be easy. But that doesn't mean that they have to dumb down the game to the level of complete imbecility and treating us like we have no idea about any bodily function.
1. Nobody seems to wonder that somebody who broke his neck can write ledgibly? If you break your neck, you're either paralyzed neck downwards or dead.
2. How come this police officer was incapable of staving off a suspicious person that wanted to harm him? He's trained to do that, after all.
3. How come he is lying on his stomach, when he was capable of ripping the murderer's glasses off before being pushed off? And how come they landed right underneath his body, if he had grabbed them, they might have flung into a bush if he made a spin during the fall. But not right underneath himself.
4. That stupid typo and nobody freaking noticing it. Well the defendant knows it, but doesn't mention it clearly.
5. That stupid Amnesia plot. I get it, they did it so that Phoenix (and the player) would have to re-learn how to freaking play the game, but come on...
Really, that entire case should have gotten a mistrial the first day around and be done with.

C-A

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Phoenix actually didn't show Tigre the evidence to begin with. Tigre confronts him in Tres Bien after Phoenix goes there to ask Jean Armstrong some questions about Tender Lender. By that point, Tigre's already gotten Armstrong in on the plan to beat Phoenix up and take the papers, so Tigre had decided even before Phoenix got there to assault him.

The actual conversation goes as follows:

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Armstrong: Eh, bonjour! I 'ave been waiting for you to return.
Maya: Mr. Armstrong...
Phoenix: Ah, good timing. I was hoping to find you here. We'd like to ask you a few questions...
???: Well, he hasn't got anything to say to youse fellas!
Maya: Ah! It's Xin Eohp...
Tigre: Who you callin' "Zinnee Ooooope"!?
Maya: Aaaaah!
Phoenix: (Come out from under the table already, Maya!)
Tigre: Ok. Hand it over.
Phoenix: Wh-What?
Tigre: Youse wanna ply games wid me? I don't recommend dat! The medical papers! Now!
Phoenix: (Uh, oh... I think he wants Viola Cadaverini's papers back...)

======

Tigre knew that Phoenix had the papers before he even got to the restaurant. So, no, Phoenix isn't THAT forgetful.

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Huh, than I didn't have the whole situation in mind, at least not correctly. It has been quite some time since I last played that case. Thank you for correcting me!

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It has to be when Godot just left the letter from Morgan Fey for Pearls to read it. Why would he not take it, thus preventing the plan from being acted out?

His explanation is that he wanted the plan to be acted out, so that he could be a hero!
....a reason why I don't like that guy.

C-A

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Ahhhh, makes sense now. Makes 3-5 and all of T&T even weaker than I thought, and I didn't think highly of it before.

Eh, most of my complaints are for Apollo Justice. The game was okay, but really lacked quality compared to the others... (Warning, spoilers for all of AJ)

1. Turnabout Succession... in General
Ugh... just ugh. While it had one of my favorite villains, Kristoph Gavin, I felt the case was too short, and lacked significance. In the past, the final cases took weeks to finish, this merely days. Also, Apollo really didn't do much, it was mostly hobo Phoenix who did the work. And what irked me the most is how easily the case was won... there was no challenge, Kristoph was convicted because of that Jurist System, which meant there was barely a fight. (Jury= okay for real life, not good for Ace Attorney where the courtroom is a comic and great mess of a trial!) And seriously, someone as cool and evil as Kristoph deserved a better ending. (Not to mention the unnecessary cliff hangers, although they'll hopefully be resolved in Dual Destinies)

2. Everybody Hates the Defense
I've heard this one brought up before online, but I'll bring it up. (although it's alright) Manfred von Karma forges evidence for YEARS, gets caught, and gets a penalty. Nothing more. Phoenix, a known "fighting for truth" kind of guy has a random witness *cough* *cough* make a claim that he used forged evidence and had him disbarred. (Let me tell you, that segment made me loathe Klavier... well short haired Klavier.) True, the prosecutors were always treated better than the defense, this one is a bit farfetched with everyone turning on Phoenix without giving him a shot. (although then again, the judge can be derpy... )

3. Genetics: (Note, I do not mean to offend anyone in any way with this)
Now this one is more of a nitpick of mine rather than something stupid in the game, but I have to get it out there. If Trucy's biological father is Zak Gramayre... then why is Trucy fair-skinned? (white, whatever.) I know that phenotypes in human skin pigmentation can differ and be an array of shades, but still this puzzles me a bit since Zak is one of the only black/dark skinned guys within the game. (Godot is more Hispanic, and Tigre is just spray tanned... I think.) Again, this happens with Thalassa Gramayre and her father...



Also...

In terms of the Genetic thing, I think I remember reading or learning in biology that it's very likely for dark skin to practically skip generations. It can happen that somebody with a dark skinned parent can turn out white and their child turns out white as well, but the grandchild could turn out black.
I suppose this could be a case with Trucy, perhaps her child will have dark skin, whether the father is fair or dark. She has two major contributors for dark skin in her parentage, on both sides, so I suppose she just got lucky staying light.

Okay, have to correct myself. According to my mother, who graduated 13th Grade in Biology and really knew the Mendelson (Spelling?) Thingy, it's like this. Because Trucy is white, this means she inherited the recessive white genes from her mom and the recessive white genes from her dad, because in order for Trucy to be white, Zak has to be mixed. So because Thalassa inherited the recessive white genes from Magnifi (or her own Mom) Thalassa has no black genes in her pool, ditto for Zak minus his own dark skin, and Trucy inherited those, so Trucy is white and would only be capable of having white children.... unless she got it on with a pure-black person.

C-A

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Well, #1's purely subjective, but...it took you weeks to finish the final cases in games past?

I don't remember a single one taking me more than a couple days.

As for #2, that's pretty easy to explain, but it requires some AAI2 spoilers:



Phoenix, on the other hand, was put in a bad situation. He had no one to cover for him, and not only that, but he kind of indicted himself in the trial by throwing himself under the bus to try and save Zak: "you cannot hold my client responsible for actions I undertook as an individual." He presented the evidence, the evidence was forged, and Phoenix openly claimed that he was responsible for it at one point (even if he denied it later). It's quite possible that the press had a large effect on the decision of the review board as well; the media was making it out to be a "david-kills-goliath" story of the young prosecutor exposing the corrupt defense attorney, so the pressure to not let the "corrupt defense attorney" get off the hook quite possibly influenced the board's decision in some way.

And as for #3 it's just more than likely that Trucy got more of her mom's genes than her dad's. I've known interracial couples who have had kids that look dark and look white. It's not always a mix of the two skin tones of the parents involved.

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Or like in Fried Green Tomatoes At The Whistle Stop Café, a really black man and a light-black woman ended up having twin boys, one of them lightish as the mom and the other was so 'black that he done got blue gums'.

And Blargh pretty much explained the thing about Phoenix' disbarrment and von Karma's wrist-slap. Plus, well Phoenix admitted to forging it once, which is dumb... all he has to admit to is being an idiot. And the whole thing could've been resolved much easier. After all, Zak knew exactly what he was gonna do during the trial, no matter any verdict, so why did he even want to have an attorney or wait so long to pull off his plan?
But this has given me #5 on my Top 10 list.

#5 Using the Forged Diary Page
I know Phoenix is a bit on the naive side of things and thinks people are all good on the inside and stuff like that. He can be a bit of an idiot at times, but that was just a giant Idiot Moment he had there. Shortly before the case, this little girl who is an absolute stranger to him goes over to him and hands him the diary page, saying that she was told to give it to him and then leaves. Phoenix has no idea what it is, where it came from, doesn't even have a slight hint of suspicion regarding this thing. He just looks at it and says, "Awesome! This is like a Get Out Of Jail Free card!" and presents it.
What a fucking idiot.

C-A

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Here's my theory on Zak's plan, and it clears up most of the issues with his decision making, as well as a bit at the end on Phoenix's presenting of the forged diary page.

I think Zak, if he possibly could, wanted to be found not guilty. But he wasn't willing to do so at the price of making Valant a new suspect in his place. So he originally went with the person whom he thought was the best lawyer available to him (Kristoph Gavin), in hopes of simply getting off the hook and the police not having enough evidence to arrest Valant afterwards. For that reason, Zak never showed anyone the real diary page, because he knew that it would essentially guarantee that Valant would be found guilty of Magnifi's murder.

So things are going as Zak expects, and then Kristoph stops by the detention center, probably the morning of the day before the trial, and mentions to Zak that he found a diary page that will prove Zak innocent. Zak balks at this, and realizes that he has to get rid of Kristoph and that new diary page or else Valant will be convicted of murder. So he sets up a poker game as an excuse to fire Kristoph, and then hires the attorney with perhaps the next best reputation, Phoenix Wright (probably without doing much research into Wright's background of turning cases around and finding the real culprit).

At this point, Zak probably just wants Valant to avoid being found guilty of murder, and so he stalls Phoenix to keep him from looking into the case too much (and possibly finding evidence to accuse Valant) by playing a game of poker with him as well. Phoenix is hired with Zak hoping that he won't be able to convict Valant, and thus Zak believes himself to be in a pretty favorable position. Wright has had no chance to investigate the case at all, so he likely won't find any evidence to convict Valant, meaning that Zak's partner will get off free regardless of what happens. Wright's also a well respected attorney, so there's a chance he could argue his way out of this and get Zak a not guilty to boot.

Unfortunately, Kristoph crashes those plans when he gives Trucy the piece of paper. Trucy walks over to Phoenix and hands it to him, and Zak likely takes no notice of it. Phoenix shoves the evidence away in his court record and probably forgets where it came from as the trial reaches its climax. Zak thinks that everything is going well, Valant begins to look more and more suspicious, but Zak probably doesn't care at that point because he believes Valant was guilty anyone (since Zak obviously knew he himself didn't do it). Klavier then brings out the diary, and Zak prepares his escape, figuring that there's little hope that Phoenix can worm his way out of this conundrum.

Then, all of a sudden, Wright presents the forged diary page. This is Zak's worst nightmare. Valant is almost sure to be convicted, and he can't call his own lawyer out for forging evidence, since his only proof that the evidence is forged would be the real diary page (which would get Valant convicted as well). Zak's probably going crazy wondering how in the world Wright got his hands on the forgery that Kristoph claimed he had yesterday, until his thoughts are interrupted by Klavier putting the trial on hold, bringing in Drew Misham, and accusing Wright of forgery.

Zak probably breathes a huge sigh of relief as Klavier does so. Valant (mostly) gets off the hook, and Zak pulls his magic trick and takes off for good. The big loser is Phoenix, whose career falls into pieces after he attempts to save his client by temporarily claiming that he forged the evidence and denying that Zak had anything to do with it. To quote one user: "Mia taught Phoenix to believe in his cilient; unfortunately, Mia didn't teach Phoenix that some people aren't worth believing in."

So that explains Zak's actions. As for Phoenix presenting the page...he himself realized that it was fishy right after he did so, so I don't believe it was as big of a blunder as it's being made out to be. It was likely a heat of the moment decision, and Phoenix didn't stop to consider the legitimacy of the page. He probably didn't even remember where he had gotten it at that time. All he was thinking about at the moment was finding some evidence to counter Klavier's, and considering that Phoenix thought he was vastly superior to Klavier as a lawyer, he probably didn't even take the time to think things through like he normally would.

It was certainly a huge mistake, but it was more of a combination of Phoenix's overconfidence and the heat of the moment than him just being an idiot.

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Which is, technically, the exact lesson Phoenix was supposed to learn in Case 2-4. I've mentioned it before, the message behind 2-4 was good, but the way it was setup and executed was complete crap. And as we learn in 4-4, Phoenix learned nothing.

As for the Diary Page, I never fully saw how this would 100% convince anyone that Valant was the murderer. Yes, his motive for killing Magnifi would be, "You didn't give me the rights to your tricks! Go die!" but the same thing can be said for Zak, the other way around. Since Zak had permission to perform Magnifi's tricks after his death, Zak would also have motive for killing Magnifi. So he can perform the tricks immediately.

So displaying the real diary page would just as easily have proven Zak guilty and not Valant. And if Zak really didn't plan to escape and disappear from the beginning, how and when did he give Trucy the signal to help him with that act? Perhaps she was in the peanut gallery during the trial and when Zak started talking about getting convicted, she left - but I think people would've noticed a little girl, who previously was without any adult supervision, leaving the courtroom. Or did she wait outside for the off-chance that her father would try to escape?

And I'm not on the bandwagon of 'Zak is a total Jerk' - the comicstrips are funny, though - but I doubt Zak would just stand there, completely spaced out when he sees his daughter running up to his attorney and giving him a piece of paper. So he probably knew about the forged page and that Wright had it.

C-A

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Well, I guess the reasoning behind the forged diary page was that Magnifi would have written it after Zak had left (the wording in the forged diary page heavily implies that Zak had already left the room when Magnifi wrote it). As for the real diary page...that obviously would prove that Zak was still in the room after Magnifi wrote it. Perhaps Zak didn't show the page because it would cast doubt onto Valant; Valant would certainly have a motive for killing Magnifi (jealousy), and Zak would not.

It's certainly not 100% proof, but it would make for a very good case against Valant. Zak especially couldn't speak up after Phoenix Wright presented the forged diary page, because by that point, Valant was already looking very suspicious, and this would simply heap even more evidence onto the looming pile against him.

I don't think Trucy was ever in the courtroom; she was likely watching the trial via TV in one of the courtroom lobbies, or perhaps Zak had simply told her to stand there until she was needed. For what it's worth, she could have just been standing out in front of one of the lobbies, and then all she would have needed to do was to pull out Mr. Hat when she saw Zak run by, wait for the bailiff to round the corner, then duck into whatever lobby Zak didn't go into, and tuck away Mr. Hat.

And as weird as it seems for Zak to stand by and not investigate what his daughter was giving to Phoenix, that's exactly what happened:

=== 4-4 Script ===

???: Um, uh...Here.

Phoenix: What's this...?

???: I dunno! I just got it over there in the hall.

???: They told me to give it to the "old boy in the blue suit with the spiky hair".

???: They said it was really important!

Enigmar: ...What's this? A memo for you or some such?

Phoenix: Hmm... Not from the looks of it.
(What is this? Looks like a page from someone's diary)
I'll give it a read later.

*Notebook Page added to the Court Record*

Enigmar: Well, how do you feel about today's trial?

======

Zak doesn't even recognize the forged diary page (possibly because it was folded up or in an evidence bag when Trucy gave it to him), and for some reason, doesn't even bother to investigate it. It's completely bizarre, and maybe he would have asked Trucy about it later if he had the chance...but I digress.

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Thanks for helping answer number three for me! ^_^

Probably, but Valant only had a good case against himself cause he fucking sucks at cleaning up messes. Look, pal, if you're gonna tamper with a crime scene, make it so that it's hard to notice it. Adrian did a somewhat decent job of it in 2-4.

And I stand by it, having a paper that allows him to perform Magnifi's tricks once he's dead would also give good reason for Zak to kill him. The sooner the guy is dead, the sooner the permission is valid.

C-A

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Well, regardless of how stupid Valant is, the point still remains that he was already suspected of tampering with the IV fluid.

There's also this: at the end of Valant's cross-examination, Phoenix was simply trying to extend the trial so he could do some investigating. Zak might have been worried that Phoenix would investigate the crime scene and find some new damning piece of evidence that would convict Valant for good. Or perhaps he intended to interject, but he might have hidden the diary page somewhere inside his costume, was having difficulty getting it out and couldn't do so before Klavier brought the trial to a halt. Or perhaps Zak was merely listening to the conversation going on at the time, and didn't realize that the diary page would also prove that he was there at the scene of the crime after Magnifi had finished writing. There's a ton of possible reasons why Zak didn't bring up the real diary page.

Certainly, it's a valid possibility that the page would have provided credible motive for Zak as well. Perhaps that's why he didn't show it before the trial. The real diary page would have provided a credible motive for him, which would make it quite difficult to get the acquittal he was hoping for, but the fake diary page would prove that Valant was the only one who could have killed him, which is why Zak fired Kristoph.

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....I think the easier way to explain this all is that AJ was incredibly rushed and particularly the last case was complete bull. Not as bad as 3-5, but definitely similar.

C-A

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I lost all respect when you said Bridge to the Turnabout was bad.

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I think it is. The plot twists were obvious from the start, the entire Twin Thing was stupid, Godot was an atrocious character and his plan was fucking stupid, so his breakdown at the end did not gain any sympathy from me. Plus.... the people were just really, really dumb in that case. "What, Maya killed her mother and then killed herself? Oh god, why did I not think about that, what with the lack of a body found on the side or anywhere around the perimeter! Oh where could she have gone-Oh wait she's a spirit channeler! She's summoning someone!"
I think Phoenix hit a low-point of stupidity there... I think the entire game of T&T was pointless as it was just one giant exposition fest about the Fey Clan, about a clan that we probably stopped caring about in the last game. I don't think many fans cared about the finer points about the clan.

C-A

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Catmuto, I respectfully disagree. Bridge to Turnabout might not have been my favorite case (that would be Turnabout Goodbyes), but I feel it is in my top favorites. It had many good plot devices, although some of them may have came off as cliche. Twins were bound to be introduced sooner or later because that's a common character theme in Japanese pop culture (anime, Vocaloid, games, etc.) Despite having several spoilers about the game revealed (Ex: Maya's mom, Dahlia being evil, Iris and Dahlia being twins, Godot killing Misty) I was still surprised at moments. You have to admit, swinging a dead body across the bridge was rather unique, and it was interesting to see more into the Fey Clan (I didn't lose interest in them in JFA! :3) Anyhow, Godot although his plan wasn't most thought out was an emotional character, not acting as rationally as he could have due to his heartbreak. Godot and Mia were starcrossed lovers, where fate tore them apart. (Although it would have been nice if they had Maya channel Mia for Godot.) And I'm not sure if I was being slow on it, but I did not see the Maya-summoning-Dahlia thing coming. It had a happy ending that mostly summed things up (which is why Apollo Justice sort of ruined it all with hobo Phoenix and stuff like that.) Just my opinion....

Heartbreak does not excuse murder. And that's what Godot did. He purposefully knew of the plan, hid himself in the location it would happen and knew that he'd fight Dahlia, completely aware of the fact that he might kill the host body. He practically planned a murder and I agree with him on one point.
His actions for doing so were not to save Maya. They were flat-out, stupid revenge.
Godot appears and learns the woman he loved was dead, the woman who poisoned him is dead and decided to stick to the past instead of taking time off to mourn, maybe to take a stop to moving on eventually.

Speaking of, didn't Dahlia say she was executed a month before 3-5 which took place in February, I believe?
That actually means that she was still alive when Godot first appeared, I believe 3-2 took place in September? It's been a while since I played that case. So Dahlia was still alive at that point, Godot just didn't take the opportunity to go to the prison she was kept in and use his Supreme Prosecutor Status to get an audience with her and spit in her face. So that whole thing about him, "Being denied even his revenge on that woman" is total bull.

As for Maya not channeling Mia... remember back to 3-2, where Maya - or was it Pearl - stood there again as Mia in court. Mia and Godot recognized each other. Again, Godot had a chance to talk to Mia. He didn't. He chose to wallow in his own misery.

The twin thing... it just felt dumb to me, especially since we already had sisters and siblings all over the place. Dahlia and Iris being twins came out of nowhere, it just happened and nothing really showed it, except the similarity. Okay, I knew it was coming, but only shortly beforehand and that's what pissed me off. I know people think I'm crazy for saying "It was so obvious that Elise is Misty from the beginning" because there's actually no hint for it. Except the face. Come on, the face was pretty familiar.

Swinging a body underneath a bridge was unique? Not really. It was obvious he was swung from underneath, mostly because the still we keep seeing is of Larry lying on his back so we obviously know, "Oh wait! That picture is upside-down!" really fast. And swinging the body underneath was practically the only way to do it. And Maya summoning Dahlia was pretty obvious to me. I mean, Maya was stranded in a small area on the opposite side of the bridge, there is not a single body found anywhere, no body in the riverbed, no body in the temple and not to mention the differently acting Iris when you approach the cave. That all was really obvious that Maya had saved herself by channeling.
Granted, I thought she was channeling Iris - my thought being that first day Iris was the real one, the one afterwards was simply Maya channeling her - so I wasn't 100% correct on that, but it was still easy to figure out.

And Godot is not an emotional character. He's a dick, a sexist jerk and freaking annoying with his constant coffee talk. Oh, the depths of hell are nothing compared to the darkness of my coffee.... blend #205, Patent Pending! Anyhow, we see him as a jerk throughout the game and then we're suddenly supposed to feel sorry for him when he reveals that he murdered somebody in cold blood, technically not even the person he wanted to kill? He's a dick for not burning that letter. He said himself, he was fully aware that he might be killing Pearl, had his plan failed on the Misty channeling Dahlia part. See people, this is why you don't try to be a Hero for anyone.

C-A

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I disagree on just about every point.

Godot certainly knew his actions posed a danger ahead of time, which is obvious, but that's the entire point of the tragedy behind what he does. He didn't take time to stop and think about what he was doing. He was completely oblivious to the truth that the only reason he was doing what he was doing was revenge. He's a man who was poisoned, lost a good chunk of his life and his lover, and he hardly even has a reason for living once he emerges from his coma. He lies to himself and tricks himself into believing that he's doing this for Maya's good...and then when the moment to carry out the plan happens and Dahlia is in front of him, all desire to keep Maya safe leaves him and he's completely overcome with a desire to destroy Dahlia. His actions are perhaps what one might call "stupid," but he's put in a situation where logical thinking is hardly to be expected. He lies to himself, all the while being bitter and simply trying to somehow avenge himself (and Mia, to an extent, because he blames himself later for not being there to protect her), even to the point where he actually kills the mother of the one person he's trying to protect.

As for Godot not visiting Dahlia, it's quite possible he did and we were simply never told about it. He almost certainly would have been in attendance at her execution. However, it's also quite reasonable to think that he wouldn't want to talk to Dahlia. Dahlia was already sentenced to death at that point, and there's little Godot could do to harm her then. Words were meaningless to Dahlia, and she would likely simply make fun of Mia's death and agitate him further. Confronting Dahlia wouldn't provide Godot his revenge. In the same way that Dahlia ruined Godot's life, Godot wanted to watch hers be ruined.

He sat in on Pearl's and Morgan's conversations, so perhaps he sat in on Dahlia's and Morgan's and never confronted Dahlia directly in order to hide from her and avoid letting her know that he was back (run on sentence is run on-ish). Morgan might have tried to plan around him if either of them knew he was back, so it could have been to hide and throw a wrench into their plans once he knew about it. There's a number of possible reasons here.

It would have been quite difficult for Godot to actually talk to Mia at any point. Pearl/Maya were only channeling her temporarily, and the entire situation was so awkward at that point and Godot was so bent on his revenge that I don't think he even would have wanted to talk to her.

I loved the twin twist. It certainly came out of nowhere, but that's fine by me. It caught me by surprise and provided a neat closure to all of the mysteries surrounding the two Irises and Maya's disappearance. I can't say the fact that it was another pair of siblings annoyed me; the only siblings that are brought up over the course of T&T are Maya and Mia, and of course Valerie, Dahlia, Iris, and Pearl. It wasn't difficult to keep track of.

I figured the bridge thing out a while ahead, but I honestly didn't get the "Maya channeled Dahlia" until about halfway through the former part of the trial, and by then it had provided enough intrigue that I thought it was still a very good plot twist. It's not something that I would blame Phoenix for missing, either; considering that he was running a high fever, and under a ton of pressure both from just being in court and from waiting to find out the results of the search in the Inner Temple...it's quite understandable how he wouldn't recognize it. My bigger beef with him was not immediately realizing that Dahlia's suggestion that Maya hit the rock bed was stupid, since he just went over a case with that exact same thing happening two nights before, but he was still running a ridiculous fever so I'll give him a pass.

Godot's intended to be a jerk of a character. The game's not trying to make him out to be a hero of sorts, or really even like-able. He's a tragic character who convinced himself that what he was doing was right even when it was obviously wrong. I hated him throughout the game, and I still didn't like him when it was over; but he was a really well done character. The end of the game was a mixture of still hating him and feeling terrible, both for him and for the entire situation. For someone who loses his girlfriend, get poisoned, and then perhaps loses the majority of his life (I'm not entirely sure how much of an effect the poison had on him), yeah, I can feel sorry for that. I both dislike and feel bad for him. It's a well done character that can make you feel both.

(And I have no idea how Godot even begins to be sexist. Is it him calling Mia a kitten?)

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I agree with Blargh (though I lacked the eloquence to put it like that, I haven't played the game in practically a year...) As for Godot being sexist, it might refer to the "kitten" remark, and I think he called Franziska "a wild filly" or something like that. Though I don't really find him much of a jerk myself , and his jerky behavior towards Phoenix was due to his guilt of not protecting Mia, thus he blamed Phoenix. Though he finally accepted it at the end, which was good. Therefore I think Godot is an okay guy

Godot also called Ron a "kitten".... and told him he should be a man and clean up his own mess... and stated the same to Phoenix... so... if he's sexist, that would make him sexist against everybody?

As far as the Franziska thing goes...



Godot said what he said to Franziska because of how she presented herself (judgmental, and still trying to hold on to a case she was only substituting for). You have to remember, she butted into a conversation she wasn't even a part of so that she could insult him first, and then challenged his priorities without knowing anything about his situation. "What could be more important than a trial?" Honestly, if you knew everything Godot knew at that point, wouldn't you be tempted to tell her to STFU too? True, he could have been a lot nicer about it, but he's just had a pretty rough night, to put it mildly.

Not to mention, he's lost about six years of his life, and his sight, he likely has a fairly rigid schedule for his medical needs, and uses whatever free time he has to face Phoenix in court and investigate the Morgan/Dahlia plot, so he probably doesn't have time for the bullshit of somebody he has no interest in. Priorities, basically. Plus after being in a near-death state for six years, his bullshit tolerance levels are pretty low to begin with... but even just a few minutes of the trial in 3-2 should have told you that.

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That is amongst the things that shows him as a sexist - or chauvinistic, never sure about that word's meaning - asshat. Just looking at Franziska would tell you that she is not one of the little women who can't do anything for herself, so his comment is pretty off and pretty offensive, too.

And I don't care how tragic Godot is supposed to be portrayed, how sad it is that he lost the woman he wants and chooses to wallow in his own freaking misery instead of actually doing something productive that isn't being a dick to the Judge or Wright. And I'm pretty sure that, when Godot woke up, Dahlia was still alive. Sure he couldn't get his revenge on her.... but then, you say he wanted to destroy her life. Considering she got executed, doesn't that mean she doesn't have a life anymore? That would be a pretty good way to let things go. But no, he chooses to stick to the past.

Regarding the letter, that thing didn't require any logical thinking or should cause too many emotions to confuse him at that point. Here's a letter saying, "Summon her and KILL MAYA roast the Master" and instead of doing something that wouldn't be too hard - I mean the Kurain house has a freaking incinerator in it - he puts the letter back.
I was gonna say, I'm surprised Pearl didn't think it was too weird that it was opened before, but she's a kid. That's her excuse for not wondering about it until specifically mentioning at a later point in the game.
Nope, he leaves it there. Heck, he could even have destroyed the original letter and substitute it with something else. *shrug* That would've 'saved' Maya a lot more than what Godot did.

I feel no sympathy for him, nor do I think he really deserves it. Everything that happened to him post-waking up was things he brought on himself. He chose to remain in the past, to wallow in his misery.

C-A

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Yes, it's rather offensive, and meant to be dismissive. And he probably wouldn't have thought to say it in that manner if he hadn't just had the worst night ever (not to mention trying to console Pearl the next day) and Franziska hadn't taken it upon herself to get in his face.

Does that make him an asshat? Probably. But I can see where he's coming from.



It's very interesting you keep placing emphasis, not to mention the blame, on Godot. I won't deny revenge made up part of his motive at the very least, but you seem to be forgetting another full-grown, responsible adult in this whole equation:

Misty.

She knew all about the plot as well. Yet she didn't try very hard to reach out to Maya or Pearl before they ended up at the temple, and there's little indication she tried to get Godot to respond to the plot in a less dangerous manner (though there's about as much indication to suggest the opposite as well).

So if you're looking to place blame on someone for the temple incident, I don't think you can put that all on Godot. I'm not condoning his recklessness, but there was nearly five months for everyone involved to handle the situation better.



Yes, he brought a lot of shit on himself. And he eventually realizes this himself. Call it wounded pride, a broken heart, or a need for revenge, or maybe some combination of the three. He's still a tragic character, and as TheBlarghMan pointed out, you don't have to like him in order to feel bad for him.

Of course, no one is obligated to feel bad for him either. But there are plenty who do anyway. Because his situation simply isn't black and white. Or red.

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Even if I liked Godot, who oversteps the boundary of "Funny Jerk" and "Somebody punch this Jerk", I doubt I could feel bad for him. Simply because he brought it on himself.

As for Misty, she tried to reach out to Pearl. The plan was to get her into Misty's room for the night and 'keep her occupied'. Whether this means with books or telling her that she knew about the plan and thinks it wouldn't be a good idea to do it we don't know. Pearl goes off on her own, after all.

Speaking of Misty, this is the woman who left the Kurain village because the slandering of her name and that of Kurain was something that she couldn't take. I have to say, this kind of makes her sound like a weak person. If she tried to persuade Godot to change his plan, he didn't listen - still his fault. Misty didn't really do much with the plan herself when she decided to channel Dahlia before Pearl could. She just sat there and channeled her, didn't try to get someone to tie her up - like, say, the other accomplice, Iris - or lock her door or anything. Dahlia had perfectly free reign.

And don't tell me a strong Medium can control the Spirit they are channeling. Remember, 2-2 said that a Medium, while channeling, is practically unconscious and doesn't know what's going on until the Spirit has left their body. So it's impossible for them to have any kind of influence on the Spirit that uses their body as a temporary host.

So while Misty might have tried to be a bit more of an adult than Godot and tried to change the plan, well, she still fucked up royally by leaving Dahlia free reign in a room that wasn't locked.

C-A

PS: We are really getting off-topic here.

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When I speak of Misty reaching out, I mean before Pearl and Maya ended up at Hazakura. Some time before the reservations were even made. Long before the plot had a chance to be set into motion. She was at the temple for about a week before her daughter arrived, but Godot had contacted her some time before that (not to mention Iris. I'll leave Bikini alone since Misty only spoke of the plot in nonspecific terms).

I'm not saying none of is Godot's fault, just that there's enough blame to go around.

And I've just said that there are people capable of feeling empathy for a tragic character, not that you have to jump on the bandwagon.

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Oh, Godot is a sexist jerk. And also a jerk.
There's no reason he had to phrase his annoyance in that type of manner.

Now it's sad and all and I don't think he deserved the death penalty (or whatever he got) but I think he gets overrated for a very flawed character. (Like blaming Phoenix for everything, how petty). Of course Misty and all were also partly to blame for the 3-5 mess, but Godot had responsibility as a member of the law to do something in case things went wrong - not just plan to use Iris as a scapegoat and exploit her as well (what a jerk agreeing to that kind of arrangement to exploit Iris' martyr complex!) He could have easily protected Maya and Pearl (even without their ever knowing) by proper, legal means, not by committing murder.

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Sexist implies that there is some sort of inherent discrimination against a specific gender. Godot doesn't hold anything against women in general. He's just as much of a jerk to certain guys (Phoenix, the Judge, and Ron) as he is to the women he talks to condescendingly (Franziska, Mia to an extent), so no, I think the sexist arguments are more than a bit ridiculous. Is he a condescending jerk? Certainly, but he doesn't discriminate in his condescending-ness.

We've already discussed whether Godot's plan was a good one or not, and it certainly wasn't well thought out if his only goal was to save Maya. But a greater part of him, possibly one that he wasn't even really aware of, wanted revenge on Dahlia above all else. The fact that it took him so long to realize that what he had really wanted was revenge, and wasn't a pure desire to help Mia's family, was what was so tragic about it. I personally think he's a great character because people so often wind up in the same way: convincing themselves that they are doing something in order to better the lives around them, when in reality, their actions end up just hurting those who live by them.

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