GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case) : The Hydeout (GS4)

Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)

Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:56 pm

Gwiffen

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Lauren Order wrote:

I have a contradiction:

Spoiler: 4-4

Going back to this, I think I have a more plausible explanation since I'm not quite satisfied with the first answer (writing perpendicular still leaves an imprint). The imprints on the next page didn't exist because Magnifi tore the page out and then wrote on it. He intended to give the page to Zak, so it makes sense if he goes ahead and rips it out.

Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)

Sun Mar 23, 2008 3:42 am

lilchamp227

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I have a question about certain motives in case 4-4, and 4-1:

Spoiler:

Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)

Sun Mar 23, 2008 4:28 am

Koolkevk

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lilchamp227 wrote:

I have a question about certain motives in case 4-4, and 4-1:

Spoiler:

wasn't going to use forgeded evidence to win. He was going to defend normaly until Zak fired him and chose Phoenix. Then he had the fake evidence made and tipped of :kyouya:

so that Phoenix would get cought and fired.

Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)

Sun Mar 23, 2008 4:34 am

hbdragon88

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Koolkevk wrote:

Spoiler: 4-4

Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)

Sun Mar 23, 2008 4:59 am

Koolkevk

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hbdragon88 wrote:

Koolkevk wrote:

Spoiler: 4-4

I don't know how he did it that fast but the game did say that he got the forgery after he was fired, and before the trial started with the purpose of getting Phoenix fired.

Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)

Sun Mar 23, 2008 5:10 am

WhiteElephant

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Koolkevk wrote:

wasn't going to use forgeded evidence to win. He was going to defend normaly until Zak fired him and chose Phoenix. Then he had the fake evidence made and tipped of :kyouya:

so that Phoenix would get cought and fired.

....-always wanted to use that smiley-

hbdragon is right.

Spoiler: 4-4

According to Vera she used very sophisticated tools to forge the letter for Krissi. Plus the Gramarye trial was supposed to be a very huge one (back then magic and spirit mediums were all the rage B3 -shot-). So when Krissi got the job he decided to forge a page of Magnifi's journal because he didn't believe that Zak wasn't the killer (or better worded: he thought Zak was the killer).

Zak found this out after playing poker with Krissi (poker is all about have the right face and making sure you can keep calm. If you cannot you'll be revealed). Krissi lost and Zak decided to fire him because he suspected him. Then he got Phoenix the night before the trial, while Krissi was telling Klavier about the forged evidence.

I doubt Krissi cared that he was going to use forged evidence to beat his own brother. He stated quite clearly in 4-4 that he only really cares about himself above all else and his pride. Losing to his little brother would be a bit shameful to him I think- especially since Klavier was 17 and a greenhorn at the time of the case :B

Kristoph got it after Zak hired him. Then after getting the page he was fired. Want proof? Click here. <--- This will take you to the 4-4 case description CR has up. Go to the Villain's point of view and it'll tell you right there and quote:

"Seeing a great opportunity to make a name for himself, defense attorney Kristoph Gavin approached him to take the case. He even paid a visit to counterfeiter Vera Misham, and asked her to create for him a page from Magnifi's journal. By giving her a sample of Magnifi's writing, she was able to create a fake page that indicated Valant as the killer."

and

"But when Kristoph met with Zak, he insisted they play a game of cards first. Zak prided himself on his sight as a magician, and his ability to read people, and to him the best way to judge a man's character was to play a game of poker. Kristoph lost the game, and Zak decided he did not want Kristoph to defend him."

Kristoph got the page after Zak hired him. He then told Klavier about it when Zak fired him. Then he gave the page to Trucy right before the trial, knowing Phoenix (and his way of simply picking up evidence and randomly using it in bluffs) would use it to implicate Valant.

I rest my case -FRANZISKA BOW-

-shot-

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Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)

Sun Mar 23, 2008 5:54 am

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It kinda makes you wonder why Zak just didn't ask Kristoph to do the poker thing at the VERY beginning. It doesn't make sense to agree to let someone defend you then fire him the day before the trial. I know that if I was hired to do a certain job, and I put all this work and effort into it, then was told the day before the deadline they don't want my work anymore, I'd be pretty pissed off too (which has happened).

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Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)

Sun Mar 23, 2008 6:20 am

Riykon

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WhiteElephant wrote:

I rest my case -FRANZISKA BOW-

-shot-

I always thought that was more of a curtsy, myself ---

-shot-

Aevitas wrote:

It kinda makes you wonder why Zak just didn't ask Kristoph to do the poker thing at the VERY beginning. It doesn't make sense to agree to let someone defend you then fire him the day before the trial. I know that if I was hired to do a certain job, and I put all this work and effort into it, then was told the day before the deadline they don't want my work anymore, I'd be pretty pissed off too (which has happened).

That's true. Perhaps, through various interactions, Zak came to distrust Kristoph? Kristoph does come off as very, very sincere during his introductions, but through conversations with him perhaps he seemed too calm, too composed when dealing with facts? Other than that, maybe Zak was too busy planning this nuances of his escape to quite consider what his defense lawyer would do. As Zak was going to disappear regardless, I suppose that the last thing he would want is somebody benefiting or suffering too much on his behalf when no verdict would be given. Which is what happened anyway, with misfortune falling on Phoenix rather than fame piling up on Kristoph.

Kristoph was quite an opportunist, and one off his rocker, at that. To think that even if Kristoph hadn't given the forgery to Trucy, he would have already made provisions for the death of Vera Misham. Destruction of Phoenix Wright based off jealousy, and making sure $100,000 dollars and a bottle of poisoned nail polish don't go to waste. I wonder which he valued more.

Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)

Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:41 am

flames05

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Spoiler: flipping out

I just have to say something...

If I were Kirihito, i'd flip out too- - I was going to win Pheonix and get away, but I just happen to unfortunately catch the jury change...how convenient for Pheonix to get the timing so perfect...

you can say that the jury was a part of Pheonix' efforts, and I don't argue against that, but the fact is, the timing is too perfect. at that time, coincidentially, the time bomb went off, the people died, as well as the jury was just ready...you see what I mean. I don't perceive luck as a part of ability, thus I don't think Pheonix "won over " Kirihito fairly.

I don't think Pheonix beat him fair and square. in the first round Pheonix won due to forged evidence, and the last one, because he coincidentially happen to get the jury ready right in time for that trial, and the jury, being the player, are not likely to choose "guilty" for Vera even though by the end of the case there looked like a good chance Kirihito might get away...

so if I were Kirihito I'd flip out at the injustice of it all.

Also, regarding how Kirihito framed Pheonix...Kirihito did nothing wrong, by law. Why is this? He forged a piece which could be considered "evidence" if used in court, or could just be a random sheet of forged paper. He gave it to Minuki who gave it to Pheonix. Now, being a good lawyer, would Pheonix use a piece of random, source-unknown paper in a major trial to defend a client who trusts him so much? He had a choice. By law, Kirihito didn't bring the evidence into the court room, and thus it constitutes no crime, but it was Pheonix who brought it in, and carelessly thought to use it without even thinking about where it could come from. Thus, his own carelessness made the random sheet of forged paper into "evidence", and so he was to blame.

Now, seven years later, Pheonix forged evidence, but unlike what Kirihito, he used Apollo to bring the evidence to court, thus pinning the blame on Apollo, so technically you could say that by law it's Apollo's fault, and it would be. Except Pheonix was in there, talking alongside Apollo, thus in a De Jure sense, they were both the defendent, and Pheonix, who both "brought in" the evidence (only using Apollo as a carrier) and also used it against Kirihito, was also at blame.

so...no, I don't think Pheonix beat Kirihito, and I don't think Kirihito's guilty on the part of framing Pheonix.

Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)

Tue Mar 25, 2008 2:14 am

rydus65

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Spoiler: Case 4-3

Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)

Tue Mar 25, 2008 2:25 am

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rydus65 wrote:

Spoiler: Case 4-3

I thought of that too, but Ema probably didn't think anything of it because she was convinced that the gunshots were actually fired during the third set...

But she still could have heard the 2nd set gunshots even if she didn't see Daryan. I mean, gunshots are kinda hard to miss...

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Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)

Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:00 am

rydus65

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Now that I think about it, even with the loud rock music, Ema should of heard that gunshot.

Remember, in PW1, Larry Butz heard Robert Hammond being shot while wearing headphones. This is no different, and Ema is way smarter than Larry Butz.

Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)

Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:33 am

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It's feasible that the gunshots were drowned out. It could have gone like this if anything :P :

Quote:

Music: GUITAR GUITAR GUITAR GUITAR GUITAR GUITAR GUITAR GUITAR GUITAR GUITAR GUITAR GUITAR
Gun: ...................BANG......................................BANG....................................................
Ema: MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH *blink* *stare at bag* MUNCH MUNCH *blink* Maybe these are stale...

But she didn't have to be in the hallway for the entire time. She did say she chased away non-staff/VIPs a few times.

Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)

Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:43 am

hbdragon88

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rydus65 wrote:

Now that I think about it, even with the loud rock music, Ema should of heard that gunshot.

Remember, in PW1, Larry Butz heard Robert Hammond being shot while wearing headphones. This is no different, and Ema is way smarter than Larry Butz.

What do you mean, "no different"? The lake was dead silent because nobody was there. He was also probably particularly alert as it was so dark out (though not enough to not wear headphones). Ema is enjoying herself and the music is loud...huge difference.

Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)

Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:54 am

rydus65

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Sorry, I may have jumped to conclusions. I was more concerned about nobody noticing Daryan anyway. While I know he was part of the band, Someone should of seen him enter or leaving the dressing room though, even if it looked like no big deal.

Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)

Tue Mar 25, 2008 7:17 pm

WhiteElephant

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But going back to Lotta- she was also near the scene but didn't hear the first gun shot, just the last two. The camera got it because it was made to take pictures of the lake at loud noises. She wasn't too far from the boat house either.

As for Daryan, he probably sneaked in around the time of the second set beginning- followed by Letouse entering Lamiroir's room (Daryan would have to be at the end of the dressing room near the small window for the shots to land where they did).

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Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)

Tue Mar 25, 2008 9:14 pm

Lauren Order

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Gwiffen wrote:

Lauren Order wrote:

I have a contradiction:

Spoiler: 4-4

Going back to this, I think I have a more plausible explanation since I'm not quite satisfied with the first answer (writing perpendicular still leaves an imprint). The imprints on the next page didn't exist because Magnifi tore the page out and then wrote on it. He intended to give the page to Zak, so it makes sense if he goes ahead and rips it out.

Sorry, I'm reviving an old contradiction here. But I have an additional explanation.

Spoiler: 4-4

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Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)

Wed Mar 26, 2008 12:45 am

WhiteElephant

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Spoiler: 4-4

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Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)

Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:07 am

Gwiffen

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Probably because he's Manfred von Karma and would've killed the Bar Association in their sleep had they done more. :headbang:

Zak would have gotten a guilty on the basis of the journal itself if Phoenix hadn't showed his false evidence. Plus there's the whole "Only a GUILTY (omg) defendant would need false evidence!!!1!!" claim. :udgy:

Last edited by Gwiffen on Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)

Wed Mar 26, 2008 3:56 am

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Not to mention we don't know exactly what Manfred Von Karma did to get his penalty. We only know that Gregory caught him slipping up. It might not have been forged evidence.

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Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)

Wed Mar 26, 2008 11:13 pm

WhiteElephant

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It was specifically tampering with the evidence, according to the game. Tampering with evidence questions it's legitimacy. In other words- questioning if it is forged or not.

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Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)

Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:35 am

Franzise Deauxnim

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Sorry if this's been covered.

Spoiler: 4-4

Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)

Thu Mar 27, 2008 1:35 am

WhiteElephant

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Franzise Deauxnim wrote:

Sorry if this's been covered.

Spoiler: 4-4

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Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)

Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:15 am

Franzise Deauxnim

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WhiteElephant wrote:

Franzise Deauxnim wrote:

Sorry if this's been covered.

Spoiler: 4-4

Doesn't fly.

Spoiler: 4-4

Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)

Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:52 am

Gwiffen

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When Kristoph met Vera, he noticed the nailbiting, yes? He also noticed that Vera had trouble with going outside. What should he do but present her with a "charm" right then and there? He probably always carries around some nail polish with him and it's not a stretch to imagine that he'd bring a little atroquinine along too since he intended to kill her in the first place. So, he slips a little poison into the polish and makes a gift of it. Only problem I can see with it is the color of the nail polish - Kristoph only seems to use clear nail polish according to his brother. I guess our manliest of men wanted to try out a new color that day, didn't like it, and made a time bomb of it instead.

Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)

Thu Mar 27, 2008 3:07 am

Franzise Deauxnim

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That sounds like a rather huge stretch to me, but more importantly, why would Kristoph take poison with him to kill Vera before she forged the diary page?

Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)

Thu Mar 27, 2008 3:23 am

BigFish

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Quote:

That sounds like a rather huge stretch to me, but more importantly, why would Kristoph take poison with him to kill Vera before she forged the diary page?

He was planning on getting rid of everyone involved with the forging anyways. He probably brought all kinds of stuff in his pockets to kill with....

...

Alright, that's a bit overboard, but you get what I'm saying. :garyuu:

Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)

Thu Mar 27, 2008 3:48 am

Gwiffen

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It makes a lot of sense that he would bring some poison with him. As stated before, he fully intended to kill her from the start. I believe when he met with her, they were in her house? Perhaps he intended to smear a little poison onto a cup or a fork or something else likely to reach her mouth, but decided on the time bomb instead knowing that she'd consume the poison as soon as she felt endangered which would likely cause quite a bit of stir in her questioners when she collapsed (which it did). Kristoph seems like the kind of character that would always carry a handkerchief and a bottle of poison anyways.

Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)

Thu Mar 27, 2008 3:51 am

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Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)

Thu Mar 27, 2008 3:54 am

Franzise Deauxnim

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Gwiffen wrote:

Perhaps he intended to smear a little poison onto a cup or a fork or something else likely to reach her mouth

What if she decided to eat or drink something before she was finished with the page? I wouldn't think Kristoph would be that sloppy.

Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)

Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:09 am

Gwiffen

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This is all conjecture. I simply offered a plausible explanation on why he'd bring poison. Perhaps that's why he gave her nail polish instead of lacing her cookware.

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Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)

Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:11 am

BigFish

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Quote:

What if she decided to eat or drink something before she was finished with the page? I wouldn't think Kristoph would be that sloppy.

Kristoph came to pick UP the page, right? .... wait.
..................
Wow. That is a good one....

Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)

Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:38 am

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Wait, that makes me wonder: Just when did Kristoph actually get the forged page? And how? Did he receive it in person (meaning, since he visited Drew Studios only once, that, he got it when he dropped off the poison) or was it mailed to him? Also, did he send the letter with the poisoned stamp before or after visiting? It must have been before, because otherwise, why would he have addressed it to "Mr. Drew Misham"? He would have known who the real forger was! And if he did send the letter first, he would have picked up the forgery when he visited, and gave the real forger the poison then, after picking up the goods.

On an unrelated note, I wonder where the $100,000 went. It doesn't exactly look like they went on a huge spending spree XD. Maybe the special forgery equipment reeeeeally cost a fortune?

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Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)

Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:50 am

Riykon

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Writer Awakened wrote:

Wait, that makes me wonder: Just when did Kristoph actually get the forged page? And how? Did he receive it in person (meaning, since he visited Drew Studios only once, that, he got it when he dropped off the poison) or was it mailed to him? Also, did he send the letter with the poisoned stamp before or after visiting? It must have been before, because otherwise, why would he have addressed it to "Mr. Drew Misham"? He would have known who the real forger was! And if he did send the letter first, he would have picked up the forgery when he visited, and gave the real forger the poison then, after picking up the goods.

On an unrelated note, I wonder where the $100,000 went. It doesn't exactly look like they went on a huge spending spree XD. Maybe the special forgery equipment reeeeeally cost a fortune?

That's an interesting thought, Kristoph making the $100,000 deposit in advance. I felt as if Kristoph only visited the studio once and then it was mailed to him, potentailly under the fake name which was on the yellow envelope. I'm not quite sure whether or not it must have been before, although there's a strong case made about it being made before; perhaps it was simply the safest thing to do? Drew Misham is the forger, revealing anything more than that could potentially cause problems.

The order really does make one wonder. And as for Kristoph giving the nail polish potentially before the job was completed, perhaps he was banking on Vera finishing the work very, very quickly. Seeing as there's a pretty quick turnaround case from crime to trial, and the fact that Kristoph paid an exorbitant amount, maybe he wasn't banking on Vera going outside before then?

And maybe the $100,000 went to getting them the new revamped Drew Studios, the one that looked a lot nicer? The forgery equipment in the current studio looked the same as the type seven years prior.

Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)

Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:16 am

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Riykon wrote:

Writer Awakened wrote:

Wait, that makes me wonder: Just when did Kristoph actually get the forged page? And how? Did he receive it in person (meaning, since he visited Drew Studios only once, that, he got it when he dropped off the poison) or was it mailed to him? Also, did he send the letter with the poisoned stamp before or after visiting? It must have been before, because otherwise, why would he have addressed it to "Mr. Drew Misham"? He would have known who the real forger was! And if he did send the letter first, he would have picked up the forgery when he visited, and gave the real forger the poison then, after picking up the goods.

On an unrelated note, I wonder where the $100,000 went. It doesn't exactly look like they went on a huge spending spree XD. Maybe the special forgery equipment reeeeeally cost a fortune?

That's an interesting thought, Kristoph making the $100,000 deposit in advance. I felt as if Kristoph only visited the studio once and then it was mailed to him, potentailly under the fake name which was on the yellow envelope. I'm not quite sure whether or not it must have been before, although there's a strong case made about it being made before; perhaps it was simply the safest thing to do? Drew Misham is the forger, revealing anything more than that could potentially cause problems.

The order really does make one wonder. And as for Kristoph giving the nail polish potentially before the job was completed, perhaps he was banking on Vera finishing the work very, very quickly. Seeing as there's a pretty quick turnaround case from crime to trial, and the fact that Kristoph paid an exorbitant amount, maybe he wasn't banking on Vera going outside before then?

And maybe the $100,000 went to getting them the new revamped Drew Studios, the one that looked a lot nicer? The forgery equipment in the current studio looked the same as the type seven years prior.

Well, the letter would have been for the forger's eyes only, and even if someone else read the mail, it wouldn't hurt Kristoph at all if people knew Vera was the forger. I also think that if it had been written for Vera, Kristoph would have been gentler in his language. It's possible that he just wanted her father to do the business transaction.

Wait a second. The poisoned stamp. So that means...it must have been sent after the visit, otherwise why would he kill the forger before the item is made? But if it were sent after, then why would he have risked visiting the studios if he wasn't going to pick up the forgery then? And why did Kristoph send a letter with a poisoned stamp of Vera's favorite magicians to Drew, if he knew that she would see it? Oh, hell, I don't know. XD

Also, Drew mentions (seven years ago) that when Vera was almost kidnapped, they moved to the current studios and they didn't move up until the time of his death. Plus, they did do a bunch of renovations, but not $100,000 worth. I also have to wonder, if Vera was making this kind of $$$ for all the forgeries she was doing (and from what the game implies, she did a lot of them), they would have made some big bucks. Where the heck is all that cash going?

< It's certainly not buying this guy any clothes, I'll tell you that :moe-laugh:

My various AA stories (Nick/Maya, Adrian/Celeste, Krissi/Dollie, Klavilami, general stuff, etc). All comments, feedback, and reviews are greatly appreciated! :D

Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)

Thu Mar 27, 2008 7:28 pm

Croik

nuuuuu, stoooooop

Gender: Female

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Even a bruiser like Tigre carried poison with him when going on his business deals, so I don't see why it's so hard to believe that Kristoph carried some with him when meeting Vera. Or, it could be like others said, that Vera told him about her nail biting when they were in person (Drew did say Vera seemed remarkably at ease while Kristoph was there - she could have told him all sorts of things), and he simply mailed her the nail polish afterwards.

As for where all that money went... maybe it's in a savings account somewhere. Vera will really need it now that her father is dead. Poor thing :sadshoe:

Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)

Thu Mar 27, 2008 7:55 pm

WhiteElephant

Mafia- Serious Business..lol

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I agree with Croik on the account thing. Even the letter Kristoph wrote said that the money would be deposited in her account. She didn't go outside but her father obviously did (how else would she get food, clothes, other necessities). He probably made an account for the money from the forgeries to be deposited there and either used it to help Vera and himself or simply deposited it there until the day would come that Vera would get the courage to leave the house again and she could use that money to help herself.

Random Ace Attorney 'Shipper From Hell approves of Franziska/Adrian >;D

Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)

Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:28 pm

chazooma

Gender: Female

Rank: Decisive Witness

Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:17 am

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WhiteElephant wrote:

Koolkevk wrote:

wasn't going to use forgeded evidence to win. He was going to defend normaly until Zak fired him and chose Phoenix. Then he had the fake evidence made and tipped of :kyouya:

so that Phoenix would get cought and fired.

....-always wanted to use that smiley-

hbdragon is right.

Spoiler: 4-4

Just one little thing.

Spoiler:

Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)

Fri Mar 28, 2008 1:13 am

Leo

Raw Rock Kills

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chazooma wrote:

Spoiler:

chargin his legalz

--==My Art==--

Raw rock kills.

Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)

Fri Mar 28, 2008 1:56 am

Gwiffen

Gender: Female

Rank: Medium-in-training

Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 5:48 am

Posts: 593

Vera said they moved into their current studio after the Kristoph deal, so I assume the $100,000 went into getting their new pad.