Re: Croik finished THE GAME!!!! (untagged spoilers inside)
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And I do feel bad that Edgeworth doesn't get that much, but it's not like Phoenix ever talks directly to Odoroki about the particulars of how he lost his badge. He has no reason to talk to Odoroki about his old friends when there are so many more important things at stake. And even if there was a throwaway remark ("too bad Edgey ain't here!") or an object in Phoenix's office with a certain description, I don't think anyone would be satisfied with that, anyway.
It's a problem set into the very basics of how the game was set up. By all means, complain about that. But we all knew ahead of time that Takumi wanted to use as few recurring characters as possible. I'm not surprised they didn't show up when there was nothing for them to do anyway.
Re: Croik finished THE GAME!!!! (untagged spoilers inside)
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musouka wrote:
No, it's perfectly fair to complain about it. If the main character of a previous series who has shown to have strong ties to other characters is a HUGE focus of a new series, then it behooves that series to explain what happened to the people he loved.
I disagree, it is anything but necessary. While I too had hoped to see or to know what happenned to [insert main character of the original series here], I am not disappointed that is not so to the point it ruins the whole game. I think too much people regards GS4 as the direct sequel to GS3 and not as it really is, the start of new trilogy that only take place in the same universe as the first one. What happened to the main characters of GS1-3 who have no direct role in the new game is just a detail, albeit an important one for most of the players of the original trilogy, and I think it's kind of a shame to say the whole game sucks for such a petty matter. And don't forget that, like Croik said, Capcom obviously created GS4 with the intent that a least a GS5 will follow. While I don't think it's a good idea to bring another old character in a main role, it's still not too late for the new series to give the answers that we want so much.
If anything, the fate of Phoenix's closest friends after GS3 belongs to fandom.
Re: Croik finished THE GAME!!!! (untagged spoilers inside)
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Croik wrote:
I'm not surprised they didn't show up when there was nothing for them to do anyway.
Jury system would have been a great way to add Edgeworth in, in a very distant role. It would have been easy enough to hint or outright say they'd been working on it together, especially with Edgeworth's nebulous law-related research back in GS3. (And also be a better explantion as to why they're letting a scruffy piano player set up the test run for an entirely new law system.)
Also, I outlined what I would have been satistfied with, and I don't think it's unreasonable. Maya sending him a shitload of SS stuff when he got run over by a car is not satistfactory for me. Implying that she visted would be. It's not like it takes that much more effort to do one than the other, it's not like that's putting an incredible amount of emphasis on her, it's just a nod at the fans that made this series a sucess.
Syrul wrote:
I think it's kind of a shame to say the whole game sucks for such a petty matter.
Who said that was the only reason I disliked the game? It is a big one, but it's hardly the ONLY one, and it's not a petty one either. Phoenix was not the only reason I played these games. I didn't need to a "where they are now" clip show. I am able to fill in the gaps myself, it's pretty obvious that Maya is off doing her thing in Kurain and Edgeworth is probably practicing law out there somewhere.
But no matter how I try to twist it in my mind, having seen what these people have gone through for Phoenix's sake in the previous games, it doesn't make sense to me that they would just allow Phoenix to kick his heels back for seven years playing bad piano and cheating at poker in a Russian restaraunt. He goes out to dinner regularly with some dude with a skull on his hand, but Maya is now just "a kid that likes this sort of thing"? That's the sum of her character: an in-joke? Sorry, doesn't work for me.
If this wasn't Phoenix...if it was random "legendary defense attorney" then I would have had absolutely no problem with it. I think the problem Takumi ran into was, no, it doesn't make sense that his friends would allow this to happen to him. So they weren't addressed at all. And I don't think that works, to me as a fan and what I played these games for. Without his context, Phoenix could have been played by any old bitter guy. Hey, let Godot reprise his role! They're practically the same character now...
Re: Croik finished THE GAME!!!! (untagged spoilers inside)
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rtsmarty wrote:
Ryu-kun wrote:
It doesn't help that you need to advance the trial be seeing a devil on a back of Garyuu's hand at one point.
uh this?
That's a devil? :s
Well, it's called an "akuma" which can mean devil, demon, fiend, evil spirit or whatever.
Re: Croik finished THE GAME!!!! (untagged spoilers inside)
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musouka wrote:
Hey, let Godot reprise his role! They're practically the same character now...
OOF! That hurts.
(Ironically, Godot got more mention than Edgeworth, what with the "NOT EVERY DAY YOU SEE A POISONED COFFEE CUP" reference).I guess I just don't feel the disappointment because it's nothing I didn't expect. I didn't really think (or want) Maya to show up. And even if I wanted Edgeworth to, when I think about it now, there's really no way he could have in a way that would fit. If Edgeworth had anything to do with the case 7 years ago, it wouldn't have made sense if he didn't show up in present day 4-4. And if he DID show up in 4-4, he would have just eaten Odoroki alive. Edgeworth plays a big role in every case he's ever participated in. I can understand why the writers decided to leave him out entirely, rather than have him show up and not live up to his importance.
And it's not like it's the first time someone supposedly important to Phoenix disappears without explanation. Larry never showed up either time Phoenix was on trial for murder. He didn't show up at all in GS2, despite Phoenix facing some of the hardest cases of his career. He didn't even call, all because he was chasing a girl halfway around the world.
Though I do wish that Phoenix had acted more Hobo-like during the Mason System segments, like I said in my write-up. If he was totally bitter about the courts turning their backs on him, it would make more sense to think that he pushed his friends away intentionally.
Re: Croik finished THE GAME!!!! (untagged spoilers inside)
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musouka wrote:
Syrul wrote:
I think it's kind of a shame to say the whole game sucks for such a petty matter.
Who said that was the only reason I disliked the game? It is a big one, but it's hardly the ONLY one, and it's not a petty one either. Phoenix was not the only reason I played these games. I didn't need to a "where they are now" clip show. I am able to fill in the gaps myself, it's pretty obvious that Maya is off doing her thing in Kurain and Edgeworth is probably practicing law out there somewhere.
But no matter how I try to twist it in my mind, having seen what these people have gone through for Phoenix's sake in the previous games, it doesn't make sense to me that they would just allow Phoenix to kick his heels back for seven years playing bad piano and cheating at poker in a Russian restaraunt.
But we don't know if they did. The game never takes the time to describe even what Phoenix was doing during those seven years beyond that "playing bad piano and cheating at poker in a Russian restaraunt". From what I seen until now about GS4, it is nowhere said that Maya and Edgeworth never paid a visit a least once to Phoenix since he got his badge taken away. Heck, for all we know he could go into a trip to Kurain every month to see how the Feys are doing, the game just don't take time to go into this since the focus is now on Odoroki in this trilogy.
If that's not the only that bothered you in GS4, then that's fine with me, but I still hold from what I heard about GS4 complaints that the "WTF ?! Where're Edgeworth and Maya ?! This sucks !!" rant is given too much importance than it should.
Last edited by Syrul on Tue May 08, 2007 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Croik finished THE GAME!!!! (untagged spoilers inside)
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Croik wrote:
And it's not like it's the first time someone supposedly important to Phoenix disappears without explanation. Larry never showed up either time Phoenix was on trial for murder. He didn't show up at all in GS2, despite Phoenix facing some of the hardest cases of his career. He didn't even call, all because he was chasing a girl halfway around the world.
Yeah...but that's Larry. Larry has always been the type to interact only if Phoenix meets him first. The others aren't. I'm not just thinking in terms of "roles", I'm thinking in terms of "characterization". Yes, from a narrative necessity standpoint you can argue that they weren't needed. But to be consistant with what we've seen previously, the game should have at least given a few nods in that direction, in a way that makes sense of the characters. Yes, we all know that Maya loves SS and all its incarnations, but it's hard to imagine her just sending him a pile of the stuff when he's in the hospital.
To be honest, I think you've recognized this yourself, Croik. In Colors, you didn't have to add Maya or Pearl or even any of the other characters in the end. You've made it pretty clear you're not big on the Feys, you could have written the story without them. So why did you? Well, as I recall what you said in your response to me, it was "because it felt right". And I still think that's a good point. Even if they didn't need to be there in GS4, for them to have no impact whatsoever when the mystery surrounding Phoenix is probably THE center of the story doesn't "feel right".
I mean, hell, at least give me something like this.
Re: Croik finished THE GAME!!!! (untagged spoilers inside)
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Damn, hobohodo would make an excelent head of CIA, now t hat Gant takes presidential seat.
Ahahah, that was one of the better plot twists!
Re: Croik finished THE GAME!!!! (untagged spoilers inside)
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And, well, I just don't buy that they couldn't have fit in or been addressed. A skilled writer can do justice to their characters, be consistent with who they are, and make the plot work the way they would like.
It might be personal taste. For me, in storytelling--especially with writing on this series' caliber--the characters should come into consideration before the plot. They are the centerpiece, not the fact that Takumi had to work in a way to incorporate the jury system into the script. If the "plot" comes first in a way that I can literally see the puppet strings twisting the characters, who have been strongly previously established, to act in ways that make no sense according to what I know of them? Then maybe someone should reconsider the plot, or at least the approach being taken towards it.
Re: Croik finished THE GAME!!!! (untagged spoilers inside)
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Re: Croik finished THE GAME!!!! (untagged spoilers inside)
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musouka wrote:
To be honest, I think you've recognized this yourself, Croik. In Colors, you didn't have to add Maya or Pearl or even any of the other characters in the end. You've made it pretty clear you're not big on the Feys, you could have written the story without them. So why did you? Well, as I recall what you said in your response to me, it was "because it felt right". And I still think that's a good point.
Well yeah, but that was because there was no reason for them not to show up, in the context of that fic. They didn't take anything away from it.
And sure, an extra two sentences like "my friend Maya sent these" wouldn't haven't hurt anything, either. Takumi probably should have made a little extra effort there for the fans that were expecting it. It doesn't bother me, but clearly it would make a lot of other people happy. ^^;;
But I do think Maya actually showing up would have taken away. And I definately think Edgeworth showing up would have, given the story Takumi chose. And sure we can say "I wish it had a different premise" because there wouldn't be problems like Maya and Edgeworth not fitting in, but then...we're not really talking about the same game anymore.
Re: Croik finished THE GAME!!!! (untagged spoilers inside)
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Croik wrote:
But I do think Maya actually showing up would have taken away.
I wouldn't have minded seeing her or Edgeworth with groovy new sprites, had the plot allowed for it. But, I've never said she had to show up in the flesh. Only that his friends should have been showing having an impact on Phoenix and what happened to him. I shouldn't be left with the impression that these people don't matter to him any more, that they don't even exist outside of a single reference that doesn't even make sense with what I know of Maya's character. I mean, you said the plot didn't preclude them from showing up in Color. That's true, but the GS4 plot also didn't preclude Phoenix being unavalible to talk in 4-2 hospital because he was with someone else during one of the investigation sessions. It didn't preclude a mention of working on the jury system with Edgeworth.
Re: Croik finished THE GAME!!!! (untagged spoilers inside)
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Croik wrote:
The biggest ends to tie up from GS4 are all Odoroki: when will Lamiroir tell him? How did she end up in another country? Who's Odoroki's father? What can the bracelets really do? Will he ever get to see Minuki's magical panty show??
Find out next time, for these are
THE LAW CASES OF OUR LIVES
Seriously, this is what GS5 is for people. They know there'll be a sequal-look at the sales for this game! They probably decided on a base-line story to cover through the(let's say three) games in the Odoroki ark. This was the introduction and to get people thinking on all the stuff they intintaionally left open. Sales will go up.
Very, very, very tickey Capcom. VEEEeeeery trickey.
Re: Croik finished THE GAME!!!! (untagged spoilers inside)
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Re: Croik finished THE GAME!!!! (untagged spoilers inside)
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You were born on the same day as your birthday, right?
Re: Croik finished THE GAME!!!! (untagged spoilers inside)
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My art thread!
My sprite thread! Calando in progress
Phoenix Wright and co.:Ace Mythbusters! Myth 2 finished
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And my devart site
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Re: Croik finished THE GAME!!!! (untagged spoilers inside)
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lonelywerewolf14 wrote:
Maybe it would have been better putting Phoenix as the main character in this game...maybe that way it wouldnt have left many holes in the storyline....but that´s just my opinion...
But that was like...the first thing they decided not to do.
With the first announcements I had hoped that they would leave Phoenix and his arc behind entirely, but I guess that just wasn't an option, either.
Re: Croik finished THE GAME!!!! (untagged spoilers inside)
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If they wanted it to be unrelated to the Phoenix arc they would've named it something other than GS4. Gyakuten Saiban Gaiden or Odoroki Gyakuten... or perhaps GS X, GS Zero, GS Legends, GS Battle Network, etc. Capcom has no trouble staring a new subseries that only vaguely references an older franchise and its gameplay mechanics without deeply relying on any part of it. They just weren't interested in doing that with this particular series.
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Re: Croik finished THE GAME!!!! (untagged spoilers inside)
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And it explains a whole lot.
Re: Croik finished THE GAME!!!! (untagged spoilers inside)
"What is this...?"
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Future Edgeworth!
Re: Croik finished THE GAME!!!! (untagged spoilers inside)
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jamar wrote:
Oh- that's how it was. At least the way I think about Maya/Edgeworth and others not being mentioned is- if you can bother to include Hotti (of all people) in a 4- line cameo and a girl who only appeared in case 1-5 in a full-on detective role, can't you do the same with Edgeworth/Maya (maybe not a full-on role, but a short appearance like Hotti had would have been nice)?
Lotti is your usual "I'm gonna grope you! And then I'll be off!" charracter.
Maya is your usual "Hi, I'm important! The next 3 cases will revolt about little me!" charracter.
Maya isn't suitable for a cameo.
Re: Croik finished THE GAME!!!! (untagged spoilers inside)
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I agree with Mikker - you couldn't have Maya show up in person and then *not* be important.
Re: Croik finished THE GAME!!!! (untagged spoilers inside)
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Eg: Larry was 1-1 and 1-4. Wasn't in JFA. Grossberg was in 1-2 and 1-4 wasn't in JFA.
Lotta was in 2-2 and 2-2, isn't in GS3/T&T.
fuck
Re: Croik finished THE GAME!!!! (untagged spoilers inside)
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It's not that Maya and Edgeworth don't show up. It's that it seems painfully obvious to me that Nick had to be "punished" so as not to be a main character anymore. Perhaps it was lashing out at Capcom for requiring that he even be in the game--but come on, this wasn't even consistent with the logic of the other games. Bad guy forges evidence which Edgeworth uses to send a man to death row, and Edgeworth gets off with a slap on the wrist and a year spent overseas, yet when a bad guy forges evidence that Nick ends up using (nevermind the 'the burden of (verifying) proof lies with the prosecution' in GS2) and he loses his badge, his personality, and his friends for seven years. Yeah, that's not vindictive of the writer.
It really wasn't necessary to give Nick (and the fans) an enormous middle finger to include him in the game and not have to include the rest of his gang, or 'endanger' Odoroki's role as the new lead. Would it have been so very hard just to throw him in as a witness to a case? You don't need backstory on witnesses, you don't even need to follow up on them when their testimony is over.
It's all very frustrating--I'll probably love everything else about the game (especially Ema), but I am disgruntled by the handling of Phoenix. It feels so...petty. This reminds me so much of how I feel about Chrono Cross: great game, but I just pretend that it really isn't a sequel to Chrono Trigger.
At least Nick is incredibly hot in hobo mode
. Love the new character artist.
Re: Croik finished THE GAME!!!! (untagged spoilers inside)
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hyacynth wrote:
Bad guy forges evidence which Edgeworth uses to send a man to death row, and Edgeworth gets off with a slap on the wrist and a year spent overseas, yet when a bad guy forges evidence that Nick ends up using (nevermind the 'the burden of (verifying) proof lies with the prosecution' in GS2) and he loses his badge, his personality, and his friends for seven years.
The difference was the forger admitted it and Edgeworth used it unknowingly. There was no known forger at the time and, of course, Nick admitted to the forgery to protect Zakku.
fuck
Re: Croik finished THE GAME!!!! (untagged spoilers inside)
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DarzieP wrote:
The difference was the forger admitted it and Edgeworth used it unknowingly. There was no known forger at the time and, of course, Nick admitted to the forgery to protect Zakku.
Ah, I see.
[Edit] Oh geez that's even MORE out of character. That's it, paint a mustache on Nick, this is mirror-universe G_S.
Re: Croik finished THE GAME!!!! (untagged spoilers inside)
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Made you feel like a total bad ass when you made him sweat.
Re: Croik finished THE GAME!!!! (untagged spoilers inside)
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hyacynth wrote:
It's all very frustrating--I'll probably love everything else about the game (especially Ema), but I am disgruntled by the handling of Phoenix. It feels so...petty. This reminds me so much of how I feel about Chrono Cross: great game, but I just pretend that it really isn't a sequel to Chrono Trigger.
I think this is the way alot of people might view this game actually. That or they could pull a DMC2 and say GS4 takes place after all future GS games (not taking it out of canon but keeping it from interfering with the story line).
Is it just me or do you guys notice that whenever the main character in a game switches (DMC2, MGS2, GS4, etc.) There is one group of people who enjoy it for its gameplay and such, then there is another set who despises the game for changing the characters.
Re: Croik finished THE GAME!!!! (untagged spoilers inside)
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BassForever wrote:
hyacynth wrote:
It's all very frustrating--I'll probably love everything else about the game (especially Ema), but I am disgruntled by the handling of Phoenix. It feels so...petty. This reminds me so much of how I feel about Chrono Cross: great game, but I just pretend that it really isn't a sequel to Chrono Trigger.
I think this is the way alot of people might view this game actually. That or they could pull a DMC2 and say GS4 takes place after all future GS games (not taking it out of canon but keeping it from interfering with the story line).
Kind of hard to do when they already mention the flashback of 4-4 as being a couple of months after 3-5 (or was that just speculation?).
Future Edgeworth!
Re: Croik finished THE GAME!!!! (untagged spoilers inside)
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Re: Croik finished THE GAME!!!! (untagged spoilers inside)
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BassForever wrote:
Is it just me or do you guys notice that whenever the main character in a game switches (DMC2, MGS2, GS4, etc.) There is one group of people who enjoy it for its gameplay and such, then there is another set who despises the game for changing the characters.
Well, that's a natural part of a switch over, but I think GS4 is a little more unique in that most of the complaints seem to involve Phoenix's over-involvement rather than him not being there at all. I know that I had no issue with the idea of a new cast, and I liked many of the new characters. (Downright adore
and 
)
Re: Croik finished THE GAME!!!! (untagged spoilers inside)
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musouka wrote:
BassForever wrote:
Is it just me or do you guys notice that whenever the main character in a game switches (DMC2, MGS2, GS4, etc.) There is one group of people who enjoy it for its gameplay and such, then there is another set who despises the game for changing the characters.
Well, that's a natural part of a switch over, but I think GS4 is a little more unique in that most of the complaints seem to involve Phoenix's over-involvement rather than him not being there at all. I know that I had no issue with the idea of a new cast, and I liked many of the new characters. (Downright adore
and )Yeah I agree, I thought the idea of a music prosecutor was awesome
Re: Croik finished THE GAME!!!! (untagged spoilers inside)
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BassForever wrote:
Is it just me or do you guys notice that whenever the main character in a game switches (DMC2, MGS2, GS4, etc.) There is one group of people who enjoy it for its gameplay and such, then there is another set who despises the game for changing the characters.
Somewhat ironic, but that completely isn't the case for me with Resident Evil, which is another Capcom franchise. Sure, I miss Jill and I'd very much like to see her in another RE, but that doesn't prevent me from loving Leon, Ada, Claire or what have you. It's all in how you handle the old cast. If you kick them in the shins, pour sugar in their gas tank, and TP their house I get ticked off because I feel that my efforts (and money) on the previous games were somehow wasted.
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hyacynth wrote:
It really wasn't necessary to give Nick (and the fans) an enormous middle finger to include him in the game and not have to include the rest of his gang, or 'endanger' Odoroki's role as the new lead. Would it have been so very hard just to throw him in as a witness to a case? You don't need backstory on witnesses, you don't even need to follow up on them when their testimony is over.
I didn't feel like Takumi was dumping all over his character. He said, after all, that he enjoyed working under the restrictions Capcom gave him (unless you want to suppose the GS4 blog is catering to Capcom, which...I can't disprove so I shouldn't have brought it up XD). Yes Hobohodo is a lot different than the Phoenix we all knew and loved, but I still think the Nick in 3-1 was almost a greater disservice to his character. Hobo's still got Phoenix's laid back attitude (even if he's now a little TOO laid back). He's still got a dry sense of humor, and he honestly cares about helping people and finding the truth. To the point that he's now willing to lie to do it.
In the flashback case, I thought it was a little odd for Phoenix to be so dismissive of Kyouya as a beginner. But accepting the blame for the forged evidence, to keep his client from getting the death penalty? I can see him doing that. (Which is maybe part of the reason he's so bitter...? All he ever believed was to "trust his client" and the case where it cost him the most, Zakku up and disappeared).
There's a lot that's different, and I don't blame anyone for being disatisfied with that. But in GS3 Takumi turned Phoenix briefly into an emotion-driven, simpering idiot of a spaz. I don't believe the man has any qualms about altering his characters for effect.
Re: Croik finished THE GAME!!!! (untagged spoilers inside)
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Re: Croik finished THE GAME!!!! (untagged spoilers inside)
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Re: Croik finished THE GAME!!!! (untagged spoilers inside)
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hyacynth wrote:
BassForever wrote:
Is it just me or do you guys notice that whenever the main character in a game switches (DMC2, MGS2, GS4, etc.) There is one group of people who enjoy it for its gameplay and such, then there is another set who despises the game for changing the characters.
Somewhat ironic, but that completely isn't the case for me with Resident Evil, which is another Capcom franchise. Sure, I miss Jill and I'd very much like to see her in another RE, but that doesn't prevent me from loving Leon, Ada, Claire or what have you. It's all in how you handle the old cast. If you kick them in the shins, pour sugar in their gas tank, and TP their house I get ticked off because I feel that my efforts (and money) on the previous games were somehow wasted.
The difference between DMC and RE is that alot of DMC popularity came from how kick ass of a character Dante was, get rid of the cool factor and you just have a polished/very difficult action game with poor camera angels. RE was never popular because of its cool characters, it was popular for its scare elements and graphics, which is something each RE has improved on.
Re: Croik finished THE GAME!!!! (untagged spoilers inside)
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Re: Croik finished THE GAME!!!! (untagged spoilers inside)
Gavin Texas Ranger
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I believe that GS5 will probably go a little something like this:
Case 1 - An easy case that Phoenix and Odoroki and working on together to get Phoenix back into the swing of things before his Bar Exam.
Cases 2 - 3 or 4, depending on if there are 4 or 5 cases - Odoroki taking regular cases, his relation to Minuki probably revealed during this time. Phoenix not seen much as he will be Studying for his Bar exam/Taking his Bar Exam/working on his new hobby of helping Kyouya, who's taking a break from law, to reform the band after GS4 3&4, paving the way for a new prosecutor.
Case 4 or 5, depending on above reason - Someone recurring, probably Minuki, is arrested for the "typical GS crime" a.k.a. murder. Phoenix, because he's passed his exam by now, insists that he takes this case and tells Odoroki that he needs to not worry, due to the possible previous relation exposing, that Phoenix feels responsible for the both of them, and because he knows that Odoroki could make a mistake in his Passionate Heart Burning Redness over his relation to Minuki. Determined to help anyway, Odoroki investigates and finds out a fair deal about the murder. The next morning, he goes to the Defense Lobby, using the excuse that he's related to(friends with, if relation has not been revealed to them) with the accused, in order to prove to Phoenix that he can and wants to do this. After a few minutes of convincing Phoenix agrees to let him run the case, seeing that if he doesn't he'll never hear the end of it, no matter what happens, but before he goes, asks Odoroki if he's sure, telling him that the Prosecutor of the case is an "Old Rival" of his that gave him a run for his money on more than one occasion. With Resolve, Odoroki says that he understands and Phoenix goes to tell the judge about this. Court begins and it's one of the most long awaited for Cameo's since the main character swap. This allows the fact that Edgey is a PW Trilogy character to show up and be a major challenge for Forehead-kun at the end of his second game.
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