Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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YES I KNOW HE HIT A WOMAN (albeit a dirty cheating one) ON THE HEAD WITH A BOTTLE!
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Pierre wrote:
Meh I still wouldn't think he's so bad. Not saying his choices are all the right thing to do...but wouldn't call him a jerk.
YES I KNOW HE HIT A WOMAN (albeit a dirty cheating one) ON THE HEAD WITH A BOTTLE!
YES I KNOW HE HIT A WOMAN (albeit a dirty cheating one) ON THE HEAD WITH A BOTTLE!
You know that and you still say he is "not so bad"?
Jerk isn't even a good enough word for someone who resorts to violence (with weapons!) when angered. If that's not jerky behavior, what is!?
Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Croik wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Meh I still wouldn't think he's so bad. Not saying his choices are all the right thing to do...but wouldn't call him a jerk.
YES I KNOW HE HIT A WOMAN (albeit a dirty cheating one) ON THE HEAD WITH A BOTTLE!
YES I KNOW HE HIT A WOMAN (albeit a dirty cheating one) ON THE HEAD WITH A BOTTLE!
You know that and you still say he is "not so bad"?
Jerk isn't even a good enough word for someone who resorts to violence (with weapons!) when angered. If that's not jerky behavior, what is!?
i dare you tell me you never assulted someone at a huge moment of rage.
as i said,zak lost his composure for a second and without thinking hit olga with the bottle.
besides,it wasn't a powerfull hit,he only knocked olga out.
Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Phoenix_Justice wrote:
i dare you tell me you never assulted someone at a huge moment of rage.
as i said,zak lost his composure for a second and without thinking hit olga with the bottle.
as i said,zak lost his composure for a second and without thinking hit olga with the bottle.
Um, I've never assaulted anyone in a moment of rage. But then again, I'm a girl, maybe guys like to get physical more or something. But I'm sure most civilized people don't hit other people when they get angry (thank goodness), unless they're drunk or something. Maybe once or twice. But with Zak, it seems like it's a regular occurrence....
Brushel said: "Sure, he punched me once or twice. Or five times."
And this is his best friend/confidant, and Zak uses him as a punching bag. Granted Brushel is kinda annoying, and it's probably done for comedic effect (like Franziska and her whip-abuse), but really... Here's another bit of their conversation:
Quote:
Zak:
...Brushel.
You may leave.
Brushel:
Ah, but, it's your last game!
I mean, what a scoop...
Zak:
......
...I punch, and I punch.
But still, it is not enough.
...Brushel.
You may leave.
Brushel:
Ah, but, it's your last game!
I mean, what a scoop...
Zak:
......
...I punch, and I punch.
But still, it is not enough.
He threatened to punch Brushel just because he wouldn't leave them alone. I wonder why Zak only has Brushel as a friend..
Quote:
besides,it wasn't a powerfull hit,he only knocked olga out.
Um, what do you mean "only knocked her out"? It's powerful enough to knock her out for some time. Sure he didn't hit as hard as Kristoph did, but it's not a light tap either!
It makes me wonder if he ever abused his wife when he got angry too..... >__> although to be fair, Trucy doesn't hate him, and he does give off a bit of a "family man" vibe, so probably not. As long as they didn't get between him and his precious Poker game that is...
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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MapleRose wrote:
Quote:
besides,it wasn't a powerfull hit,he only knocked olga out.
Um, what do you mean "only knocked her out"? It's powerful enough to knock her out for some time. Sure he didn't hit as hard as Kristoph did, but it's not a light tap either!
Pshh, MapleRose, don'tcha know it's okay to hit people as long as you only knock them out for a little bit? And as long as you have a good reason, like being angry. Just ask any police officer!
Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Croik wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Meh I still wouldn't think he's so bad. Not saying his choices are all the right thing to do...but wouldn't call him a jerk.
YES I KNOW HE HIT A WOMAN (albeit a dirty cheating one) ON THE HEAD WITH A BOTTLE!
YES I KNOW HE HIT A WOMAN (albeit a dirty cheating one) ON THE HEAD WITH A BOTTLE!
You know that and you still say he is "not so bad"?
Jerk isn't even a good enough word for someone who resorts to violence (with weapons!) when angered. If that's not jerky behavior, what is!?
Ever heard of provoked assault?
It's actually a defence that could get someone a much lesser charge than assault with intent to harm.
Besides Olga was a dirty cheat and she'd failed him ruining his big moment of the night and making him look a fool as he searched Nick. She'd spoiled what was probably an elaborate plot and cost Zak probably a substantial amount of money for hiring her and her services.
I'd say she'd provoked him.
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Pierre wrote:
Ever heard of provoked assault?
It's actually a defence that could get someone a much lesser charge than assault with intent to harm.
Besides Olga was a dirty cheat and she'd failed him ruining his big moment of the night and making him look a fool as he searched Nick. She'd spoiled what was probably an elaborate plot and cost Zak probably a substantial amount of money for hiring her and her services.
I'd say she'd provoked him.
It's actually a defence that could get someone a much lesser charge than assault with intent to harm.
Besides Olga was a dirty cheat and she'd failed him ruining his big moment of the night and making him look a fool as he searched Nick. She'd spoiled what was probably an elaborate plot and cost Zak probably a substantial amount of money for hiring her and her services.
I'd say she'd provoked him.
Olga didn't fail him, she performed her part of the plan perfectly. Phoenix just lucked out by finding the card by chance after Olga put it there but before he was searched.
Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Pierre wrote:
Croik wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Meh I still wouldn't think he's so bad. Not saying his choices are all the right thing to do...but wouldn't call him a jerk.
YES I KNOW HE HIT A WOMAN (albeit a dirty cheating one) ON THE HEAD WITH A BOTTLE!
YES I KNOW HE HIT A WOMAN (albeit a dirty cheating one) ON THE HEAD WITH A BOTTLE!
You know that and you still say he is "not so bad"?
Jerk isn't even a good enough word for someone who resorts to violence (with weapons!) when angered. If that's not jerky behavior, what is!?
Ever heard of provoked assault?
It's actually a defence that could get someone a much lesser charge than assault with intent to harm.
Besides Olga was a dirty cheat and she'd failed him ruining his big moment of the night and making him look a fool as he searched Nick. She'd spoiled what was probably an elaborate plot and cost Zak probably a substantial amount of money for hiring her and her services.
I'd say she'd provoked him.
But why did he have that plan in the first place? It was to ruin Phoenix's career (Again). That's quite the jerkoff thing to do, is it not? I don't think the provoked assault defence counts for much when he knocks out a girl who was helping him cheat so he could ruin someone's life (Not to mention the fact that Phoenix adopted Zak's daughter and couldn't support her in any other way)
Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Demon Cat wrote:
But why did he have that plan in the first place? It was to ruin Phoenix's career (Again). That's quite the jerkoff thing to do, is it not? I don't think the provoked assault defence counts for much when he knocks out a girl who was helping him cheat so he could ruin someone's life (Not to mention the fact that Phoenix adopted Zak's daughter and couldn't support her in any other way)
as explained before maybe 3 times or something(i dunno),wright no longer needed his poker carreer the moment trucy would be given the rights
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Phoenix_Justice wrote:
Demon Cat wrote:
But why did he have that plan in the first place? It was to ruin Phoenix's career (Again). That's quite the jerkoff thing to do, is it not? I don't think the provoked assault defence counts for much when he knocks out a girl who was helping him cheat so he could ruin someone's life (Not to mention the fact that Phoenix adopted Zak's daughter and couldn't support her in any other way)
as explained before maybe 3 times or something(i dunno),wright no longer needed his poker carreer the moment trucy would be given the rights
It's okay to ruin things that people don't need?
So you don't mind if I smash your computer with a baseball bat, right?
Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Icarus wrote:
Phoenix_Justice wrote:
Demon Cat wrote:
But why did he have that plan in the first place? It was to ruin Phoenix's career (Again). That's quite the jerkoff thing to do, is it not? I don't think the provoked assault defence counts for much when he knocks out a girl who was helping him cheat so he could ruin someone's life (Not to mention the fact that Phoenix adopted Zak's daughter and couldn't support her in any other way)
as explained before maybe 3 times or something(i dunno),wright no longer needed his poker carreer the moment trucy would be given the rights
It's okay to ruin things that people don't need?
So you don't mind if I smash your computer with a baseball bat, right?
I didn't cheat to get my computer
Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Icarus wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Ever heard of provoked assault?
It's actually a defence that could get someone a much lesser charge than assault with intent to harm.
Besides Olga was a dirty cheat and she'd failed him ruining his big moment of the night and making him look a fool as he searched Nick. She'd spoiled what was probably an elaborate plot and cost Zak probably a substantial amount of money for hiring her and her services.
I'd say she'd provoked him.
It's actually a defence that could get someone a much lesser charge than assault with intent to harm.
Besides Olga was a dirty cheat and she'd failed him ruining his big moment of the night and making him look a fool as he searched Nick. She'd spoiled what was probably an elaborate plot and cost Zak probably a substantial amount of money for hiring her and her services.
I'd say she'd provoked him.
Olga didn't fail him, she performed her part of the plan perfectly. Phoenix just lucked out by finding the card by chance after Olga put it there but before he was searched.
Oh yes because putting a card in his pocket from his deck is completely impossible to come across by chance.
She failed him because that is a ridiculous place to put it, maybe slide it in his back pocket, or even do what Nick did and put it in a bottle under the table. Her sheer incompetence is what caused the plan to fail. Added to this the fact she'd been working with Phoenix for a while (being planted at the Borscht Bowl Club for a while) and had plenty of chances to see how often he slots his hands into those front hoodie pockets. Well I don't think he has a sprite (besides hobo objection) where his hands leave his pockets.
Besides Zak could've taken Trucy back after beating Phoenix it's not like he was putting her on the streets.
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Pierre wrote:
Ever heard of provoked assault?
It's actually a defence that could get someone a much lesser charge than assault with intent to harm.
Besides Olga was a dirty cheat and she'd failed him ruining his big moment of the night and making him look a fool as he searched Nick. She'd spoiled what was probably an elaborate plot and cost Zak probably a substantial amount of money for hiring her and her services.
I'd say she'd provoked him.
It's actually a defence that could get someone a much lesser charge than assault with intent to harm.
Besides Olga was a dirty cheat and she'd failed him ruining his big moment of the night and making him look a fool as he searched Nick. She'd spoiled what was probably an elaborate plot and cost Zak probably a substantial amount of money for hiring her and her services.
I'd say she'd provoked him.
I don't see how Olga provoked him. Yes he paid for her services, and yes she did fail. But do you knock waitresses unconscious with a bottle when they bring you the wrong order?
Pierre wrote:
Added to this the fact she'd been working with Phoenix for a while (being planted at the Borscht Bowl Club for a while) and had plenty of chances to see how often he slots his hands into those front hoodie pockets. Well I don't think he has a sprite (besides hobo objection) where his hands leave his pockets.
Besides Zak could've taken Trucy back after beating Phoenix it's not like he was putting her on the streets.
Besides Zak could've taken Trucy back after beating Phoenix it's not like he was putting her on the streets.
Actually, I think she's only been working there pretty recently. Because Phoenix saw her before Zak came in, and thought to himself "who's that".
And no, Zak never planned on taking Trucy back; first of all, he doesn't even want to see her, and secondly, he said that after this game, he's going back into hiding, and I don't think he'd be taking Trucy with him.
Phoenix_Justice wrote:
as explained before maybe 3 times or something(i dunno),wright no longer needed his poker carreer the moment trucy would be given the rights
So Zak gets mad at Phoenix for using Trucy to help him work, but then expects her to work full time doing magic (after Phoenix loses his job) to feed both of them? How does that work >__>
Zak isn't evil like Kristoph, his heart is probably in the right place (seeing as how he still cares about Trucy despite all he's done to her), but he's a bit brutish and a jerk. Especially when it comes to Poker.....
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Quote:
I don't see how Olga provoked him. Yes he paid for her services, and yes she did fail. But do you knock waitresses unconscious with a bottle when they bring you the wrong order?
Her services (being a crook an all) probably cost a substantial amount of money for him. For all he knew she could have stabbed him in the back and taken the money anyway. After all Olga 'Quick Fingers' Orly has quite a reputation, if something went wrong in a plan involving her you wouldn't put it down to a mistake as much as something deliberate. Point: Zak thought she had screwed him over.
Quote:
Actually, I think she's only been working there pretty recently. Because Phoenix saw her before Zak came in, and thought to himself "who's that".
And no, Zak never planned on taking Trucy back; first of all, he doesn't even want to see her, and secondly, he said that after this game, he's going back into hiding, and I don't think he'd be taking Trucy with him.
And no, Zak never planned on taking Trucy back; first of all, he doesn't even want to see her, and secondly, he said that after this game, he's going back into hiding, and I don't think he'd be taking Trucy with him.
She had been planted there a few days before the game but given the amount of time Phoenix spends with his hands in his pockets it's probably still not a hard deduction to make that placing something you didn't want him to find in there is a bad idea.
Also how do you know he doesn't want to see her? He keeps a necklace on his person so he can see her anytime
And back into hiding?
Into hiding implies it's a bad lifestyle, he might take her away to a villa in spain (his outfit conveyed that image to me) that whereever he is he's not exactly slumming it. Taking her away from her life with Nick might not be so bad or unlikely.
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Pierre wrote:
Her services (being a crook an all) probably cost a substantial amount of money for him. For all he knew she could have stabbed him in the back and taken the money anyway. After all Olga 'Quick Fingers' Orly has quite a reputation, if something went wrong in a plan involving her you wouldn't put it down to a mistake as much as something deliberate. Point: Zak thought she had screwed him over.
I don't really think her services would have costed that much. What would be the point of paying someone a ton of money to win a game of poker? I don't think that would leave much room for profit, not to mention the risk of getting caught and losing both your payout and possibly getting into a fight with the person you were trying to beat. Also, she could have lied or exaggerated about her reputation during her testimony.
Pierre wrote:
Also how do you know he doesn't want to see her? He keeps a necklace on his person so he can see her anytime
I don't think a picture really cuts it when he hasn't seen his daughter for 7 years. Not only is that a long time to not see someone he cares about, but she was only 8 years old when he last saw her. I would think anyone would want to see how much their daughter has grown from 8 to 15 years old. Not only that, but its pretty obvious Phoenix is poor. A picture isn't going to tell Zak about her well being. As a father, he should show some concern and at least want to see her in person. Finally, he wanted to give her the performance rights. He asked Phoenix to do this. Can't he just give it directly to her? He's already revealing the fact that he's alive to Phoenix, why not ask him to bring Trucy to him? Instead, he spends his moment out of hiding playing poker.
Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Pierre wrote:
Also how do you know he doesn't want to see her? He keeps a necklace on his person so he can see her anytime
And back into hiding?
Into hiding implies it's a bad lifestyle, he might take her away to a villa in spain (his outfit conveyed that image to me) that whereever he is he's not exactly slumming it. Taking her away from her life with Nick might not be so bad or unlikely.
And back into hiding?
Into hiding implies it's a bad lifestyle, he might take her away to a villa in spain (his outfit conveyed that image to me) that whereever he is he's not exactly slumming it. Taking her away from her life with Nick might not be so bad or unlikely.
Here's from the script:
Spoiler: saving space
Note how he leaves Phoenix to tell Trucy about her and Apollo, which makes me think he never intended to take Trucy with him. Zak knows it's better for Trucy not to go with him. Maybe he wants to see her, but he can't, because he's kind of a wanted man (that, and I think he's afraid to face her, to know what she thought of him). ,
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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MapleRose wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Also how do you know he doesn't want to see her? He keeps a necklace on his person so he can see her anytime
And back into hiding?
Into hiding implies it's a bad lifestyle, he might take her away to a villa in spain (his outfit conveyed that image to me) that whereever he is he's not exactly slumming it. Taking her away from her life with Nick might not be so bad or unlikely.
And back into hiding?
Into hiding implies it's a bad lifestyle, he might take her away to a villa in spain (his outfit conveyed that image to me) that whereever he is he's not exactly slumming it. Taking her away from her life with Nick might not be so bad or unlikely.
Here's from the script:
Spoiler: saving space
Note how he leaves Phoenix to tell Trucy about her and Apollo, which makes me think he never intended to take Trucy with him. Zak knows it's better for Trucy not to go with him. Maybe he wants to see her, but he can't, because he's kind of a wanted man (that, and I think he's afraid to face her, to know what she thought of him). ,
Ok so that doesn't make him a jerk.
Makes him human since he can't bear to see the face of the daughter he gave up for so many years.
The wanted man part seems secondplace since his identity as Shadi Enigmar seems well enough for him to enter the country.
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Pierre wrote:
Ok so that doesn't make him a jerk.
Makes him human since he can't bear to see the face of the daughter he gave up for so many years.
The wanted man part seems secondplace since his identity as Shadi Enigmar seems well enough for him to enter the country.
Makes him human since he can't bear to see the face of the daughter he gave up for so many years.
The wanted man part seems secondplace since his identity as Shadi Enigmar seems well enough for him to enter the country.
No, that's not the jerky part. I'm just saying that he has no plans to take Trucy back like you said a few posts back. The jerk action he did was trying to ruin Phoenix's reputation -- Phoenix, who took care of Zak's daughter all these years, and would be out of a job if his reputation was ruined, thus unable to feed the daughter who he abandoned (and no, Trucy's only 15, she still has to go to school, so she can't feed the family all by herself, Magic rights or not) -- all for what? For his pride as Poker champion? Because he's jealous? And because he's all so srsbns about his plan, he knocked Olga unconscious when her plan failed. Civilized people don't usually do that....
And then there's him abandoning Trucy in the first place. Okay so maybe the situation looked pretty bad for him, or he had to leave to protect Valant or something. But you don't just leave your child with a stranger you've met the day before. He could've just showed Phoenix the real diary page, and trust Phoenix as a lawyer to do his job....
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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That and he fired Kristoph over a friggin poker game. Seriously, what the hell?
Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Demon Cat wrote:
Don't forget the fact that he also used his daughter to both bring Phoenix the forged evidence and to help him escape; thus forcing her to live with the guilt of bringing Phoenix the evidence that made him lose his job if she ever found out and forcing her to be an accomplice in the escape of a prisoner (since he was going to go to jail)
That and he fired Kristoph over a friggin poker game. Seriously, what the hell?
That and he fired Kristoph over a friggin poker game. Seriously, what the hell?
Actually, I believe that Kristoph handed Trucy the evidence and told her to give it to Phoenix.
And the poker thing...Well, I do believe that Zak was a jerk, but Kristoph wasn't exactly planning on performing the most honest defense...Zak suspected something was up, and so he fired him.
...and there's fifteen feet of pure white snow
Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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And I'd like to think he had no choice but to leave Trucy behind. Given the nature of his escape it's probably down to some phantasmagorical magical trick right? Maybe in order for the trick to be completed she had to stay behind, to cover his escape or something as it was almost certain that Trucy was involved in his escape, she was probably informed of plan and that she'd be living with a stranger for a good part of her life.
Additionally Zak didn't necessarily know about Phoenix's erm...talent with the Piano, in his eyes he'd just be gaining massive pride as Shadi Enigmar: Poker Ace while Nick continues to work his job in the bar as a pianist while still being a very well respected and talented poker player himself. If Zak was unaware of Phoenix's lack of talent then his ploy that night has no ultimate malicious intent. Cheating in poker may be bad but he'd never planned to put anyone on the street because of it.
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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...and there's fifteen feet of pure white snow
Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Pierre wrote:
Yeah I wouldn't see how Zak would have a hold of the forged evidence to give to Trucy.
And I'd like to think he had no choice but to leave Trucy behind. Given the nature of his escape it's probably down to some phantasmagorical magical trick right? Maybe in order for the trick to be completed she had to stay behind, to cover his escape or something as it was almost certain that Trucy was involved in his escape, she was probably informed of plan and that she'd be living with a stranger for a good part of her life.
And I'd like to think he had no choice but to leave Trucy behind. Given the nature of his escape it's probably down to some phantasmagorical magical trick right? Maybe in order for the trick to be completed she had to stay behind, to cover his escape or something as it was almost certain that Trucy was involved in his escape, she was probably informed of plan and that she'd be living with a stranger for a good part of her life.
Yes, I know that Trucy helped him escape, and was most likely told ahead of time that she'd be helping him escape. But that's just the thing though, good fathers don't just leave their child with a stranger, even if he told her ahead of time. And Trucy, despite being so happy and outgoing and unafraid with being with Phoenix, and accepting him right away, I don't think she's totally okay with Zak going away.
Spoiler: some quotes
Zak probably told her some stuff like "Daddy's going away now Trucy, I need your help as a magician to help me, will you do that for me?"
Also, note that it was Phoenix who looked into Trucy's background and called her into his office 2 weeks after the trial (which reminds me, where was she for 2 weeks??), because Phoenix is a good person who thought of her and decided to take care of her (it's not like Zak told Phoenix before he left "yo, will you take care of my daughter for me"). Maybe Zak somehow knew Phoenix is a good person when he played Poker with him or something, but still, leaving your daughter behind without knowing for sure that Phoenix will even go to take care of her... is pretty jerkish of him.
Quote:
Additionally Zak didn't necessarily know about Phoenix's erm...talent with the Piano, in his eyes he'd just be gaining massive pride as Shadi Enigmar: Poker Ace while Nick continues to work his job in the bar as a pianist while still being a very well respected and talented poker player himself. If Zak was unaware of Phoenix's lack of talent then his ploy that night has no ultimate malicious intent. Cheating in poker may be bad but he'd never planned to put anyone on the street because of it.
But they kinda talked about the piano playing before they went to play poker
Spoiler: saving space
Clearly Phoenix complains about playing the piano. And also, if Zak has heard of the Borscht Bowl club and Phoenix's reputation, then he must know it's what he really does, and that if he's caught as a cheater, then nobody would come to the club to play poker with him.
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Still, I think the only jerkish move Zak did was hit Olga Orly. That was uncalled for. If he didn't, maybe Zak will not die the way he did, but Kristoph would probably find a way, anyway.
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Alice wrote:
Didn't Zak played poker with Kristoph and Phoenix to "know them" so one of them will take care of Trucy, and not to defend him? (He was planning to disappear right at the beginning and he did told Phoenix that he shouldn't worry about the defense.) Since Kristoph failed "the test", Zak knows that he shouldn't be trusted to take care of Trucy. (Just think... Kristoph taking care of Trucy. *shivers*)
But why would Zak leave his daughter with an attorney who has no experience with childcare, even if he is a good guy?
But I don't think Zak planned that. Because if he did, then he would've told Phoenix about his plan wouldn't he? (I still don't get why he didn't just tell Phoenix "yo, it's okay, you don't have to defend me, I'm leaving this place before they can call the verdict" instead of being all "I cannot be found guilty today" ). I don't know if Zak planned on leaving Trucy with Nick, because Trucy didn't come up to Nick and tell him her Daddy told her to come with the lawyer guy, it was Nick who took the liberty of looking into Trucy's history to see if she had relatives, and called her in and deciding to let her stay with him out of the goodness of his heart....
But yeah, Kristoph taking care of Trucy.. I doubt he'd even decide to adopt her, probably would just leave her on the streets >_<
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Quote:
But why would Zak leave his daughter with an attorney who has no experience with childcare, even if he is a good guy?
Because he had no other choice.
If possible I believe Zak would've taken Trucy with him.
And Phoenix's statement to Zak mentions that he doesn't like playing the piano....not that he's bad at it and wouldn't be hired cept for his poker talents.
If he'd told Nick about the plan don't you think that would have made Nick a great deal more skeptical? He may just downright refuse to accept Trucy and start doubting his client. Zak judged Nick as a man to do the right thing when he had to, asking for him to downright adopt Trucy may prompt Phoenix to say "Erm....maybe you shouldn't escape?" which may result in a death sentence for Zak and Trucy being left parentless anyway.
It's either Zak escapes and leaves Trucy in the capable hands of a trustworthy man or Zak gets sent to prison/executed and Trucy is still left parentless.
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Pierre wrote:
Because he had no other choice.
If possible I believe Zak would've taken Trucy with him.
If possible I believe Zak would've taken Trucy with him.
If Phoenix hadn't taken Trucy in she probably would have gone to the state and ended up in foster care, possibly gotten properly adopted. That system isn't always ideal but at least foster/adopting parents go through some kind of screening process--unlike Phoenix the ex-lawyer.
I wonder why he didn't send her to Brushel? He's creepy but he's a good guy who actually liked Zak and had a job. He had other options.
All we know about what Zak did afterwards is that he traveled the world playing poker. Nothing about that indicates it would have been impossible for him to take Trucy with him. Maybe it would have been harder for him to hide their identities, but once they're out of the country I doubt anyone would care. He came back and was murdered and the police never figured out who he was--it's not like they were hunting for him day and night.
Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Quote:
I wonder why he didn't send her to Brushel? He's creepy but he's a good guy who actually liked Zak and had a job. He had other options.
All we know about what Zak did afterwards is that he traveled the world playing poker. Nothing about that indicates it would have been impossible for him to take Trucy with him. Maybe it would have been harder for him to hide their identities, but once they're out of the country I doubt anyone would care. He came back and was murdered and the police never figured out who he was--it's not like they were hunting for him day and night.
All we know about what Zak did afterwards is that he traveled the world playing poker. Nothing about that indicates it would have been impossible for him to take Trucy with him. Maybe it would have been harder for him to hide their identities, but once they're out of the country I doubt anyone would care. He came back and was murdered and the police never figured out who he was--it's not like they were hunting for him day and night.
Maybe Trucy didn't like Brushel (can't say I blame her) since she'd been around him long enough to know. Or maybe she stayed with him for the 2 week gap before Phoenix took her in.
And it's pretty obvious why he didn't take Trucy. If a wanted man flees his life and leaves the daughter he loved behind surely the police would keep an eye on her to ensure he didn't return for her. It makes sense the police would be keeping tabs on Trucy to watch for her father who'd disappeared ESPECIALLY after he was declared guilty. Returning would put him at risk of getting caught.
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Pierre wrote:
And it's pretty obvious why he didn't take Trucy. If a wanted man flees his life and leaves the daughter he loved behind surely the police would keep an eye on her to ensure he didn't return for her. It makes sense the police would be keeping tabs on Trucy to watch for her father who'd disappeared ESPECIALLY after he was declared guilty. Returning would put him at risk of getting caught.
Ummm...Couldn't he just take her initially? I don't see any reason why she couldn't just leave with him. He ran into that 1st room, right? Then Trucy ran into the second room to distract Meekins. He could leave, and Trucy could meet up with him in a planned location once Meekins left.
Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Demon Cat wrote:
Pierre wrote:
And it's pretty obvious why he didn't take Trucy. If a wanted man flees his life and leaves the daughter he loved behind surely the police would keep an eye on her to ensure he didn't return for her. It makes sense the police would be keeping tabs on Trucy to watch for her father who'd disappeared ESPECIALLY after he was declared guilty. Returning would put him at risk of getting caught.
Ummm...Couldn't he just take her initially? I don't see any reason why she couldn't just leave with him. He ran into that 1st room, right? Then Trucy ran into the second room to distract Meekins. He could leave, and Trucy could meet up with him in a planned location once Meekins left.
You think the police would be slow to act?
They probably took Trucy downtown to question her about her father's escape immediately afterwards. Even so they'd probably set up a perimeter to hunt her out and being very young there's limited places she could go that would be outside their influence for them to meet.
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Pierre wrote:
You think the police would be slow to act?
They probably took Trucy downtown to question her about her father's escape immediately afterwards. Even so they'd probably set up a perimeter to hunt her out and being very young there's limited places she could go that would be outside their influence for them to meet.
They probably took Trucy downtown to question her about her father's escape immediately afterwards. Even so they'd probably set up a perimeter to hunt her out and being very young there's limited places she could go that would be outside their influence for them to meet.
This is the police of the Phoenix Wright series we're talking about. I wouldn't be too surprised if they were slow to react, especially considering all of the obvious stuff they overlooked in the past (Bullet hole in Maya's costume during 2-2 for example)
Besides, Meekins was the one that met up with her in the room, and I don't remember him ever mentioning that they took Trucy into questioning. I'm not entirely sure though because I was pretty tired when I played through that part, so I might have just remembered it wrong.
Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Demon Cat wrote:
Pierre wrote:
You think the police would be slow to act?
They probably took Trucy downtown to question her about her father's escape immediately afterwards. Even so they'd probably set up a perimeter to hunt her out and being very young there's limited places she could go that would be outside their influence for them to meet.
They probably took Trucy downtown to question her about her father's escape immediately afterwards. Even so they'd probably set up a perimeter to hunt her out and being very young there's limited places she could go that would be outside their influence for them to meet.
This is the police of the Phoenix Wright series we're talking about. I wouldn't be too surprised if they were slow to react, especially considering all of the obvious stuff they overlooked in the past (Bullet hole in Maya's costume during 2-2 for example)
Besides, Meekins was the one that met up with her in the room, and I don't remember him ever mentioning that they took Trucy into questioning. I'm not entirely sure though because I was pretty tired when I played through that part, so I might have just remembered it wrong.
They aren't all incompetent particularly regarding criminals on the run.
Remember the hunt for DeKiller? The police (including Gumshoe) tracked him down pretty well, even had to have a firefight I believe. Even if they didn't take her into custody for questioning it's still possible they had sufficient search parties going about making a rendezvous difficult. I wouldn't be surprised if Zak didn't stop until the city was behind him even then he went overseas.
And Meekins may just not have mentioned that they took her in for questioning, it's not exactly important details since we know Trucy wouldn't have mentioned anything and has the defence that she just doesn't understand ALL her daddy's magic tricks.
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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-before the trial 7 years ago-
(intentions and plan)
zak was intending on leaving his doughter trucy to the hands of an honest,selfless person who was a good attorney,capable of earning enough money through his defense carreer
zak wouldn't show said attorney the page,becouse he wanted himself to be found guilty so that valant would be found innocent despite the fact that zak thought valant was the killer,zak couldn't escape before the virdict or after an innocent virdict becouse that would have made poeple suspect valant as the killer,which zak didn't want to happen.
(results and unexpected outcomes)
zak played poker with krisoph and discovered that he was a selfish person,then after firing him he played against wright and found out that he was a selfless and kind person so he hired him,all going according to plan so far.
however,zak had no idea that wright was given forged evidence,nor did he ever think wright would do so becouse of the poker game he had with wright,however wright's presenting the forged evidence ruined something in zak's plan,wright lost his job which was what zak thought at first would allow wright to adopt trucy and have enough money for both of them.
zak had no idea that was gonna happen and didn't have a plan B that would allow him to escape with trucy,or to undo wright's presenting by presenting the real paper which would be what would convict valant,so zak had to choose between valant's death,and and leaving trucy at the hands of a kind, ex-attorney.
-before the poker game-
(intentions and plan)
the moment zak was shocked with the fact that poeple found out his plan of defending valant,he corrected his mistake with a written false confession.
zak would give wright the rights so wright would give it to trucy so that she would be able to work big time at a young age like franziska and provide both herself and wright enough money so that zak could expose wright for the cheater he is.
(results)
we don't know wether poeple beleaved the written confession or not(yet),or if valant even presented the confession to the public,i guess that's up to gs5.
trucy was givent the rights,however zak's plan of exposing right was foiled that in a laps of rage he hit olga with the bottle,a hit as powerfull as wrights shove in case 3-1,so i dare you say feenie is a jerk,yes,young wright used his hands,but both hits resulted in loss of consiosness so both hits are approximatly as hard.
yes,zak's results weren't good,but his intentions were selfless,and that's what diffrintiates between a jerk and a non-jerk,results only diffrintiate between something like clumsy and not clumsy
Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Quote:
zak was intending on leaving his doughter trucy to the hands of an honest,selfless person who was a good attorney,capable of earning enough money through his defense carreer.
Phoenix only took four cases a year, mostly from people who never paid! Also being a good person has nothing to do with being a capable father. Especially a capable father to a child that is not yours. A child that could have just as easily gone to child services and been picked up by "good" people.
And in any case Phoenix lost his badge pretty much that day, and Trucy didn't go to Phoenix until two weeks later. What was Trucy doing in those two weeks and why didn't Zak change plans when he learned that Phoenix was ruined? You can say he'd left the country by then but that only makes him more irresponsible.
Expecting a 15 year old to work "the big time" and earn a living for herself and her father is ridiculously jerky.
Phoenix and Doug got into an argument and Phoenix pushed him and ran off (then came back later to see if he was okay). Zak tried to ruin a man's career through cheating and when it didn't work hit someone in the head with a bottle. People don't usually die from being pushed in the chest and falling over. People do die or get brain damage from getting bashed in the head with a bottle (people tougher than Olga--like Zak himself). Those two actions aren't even comparable.
Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Croik wrote:
Auuughhhh I keep telling myself not to respond but I can't help it.
haha tell me about it. Phoenix Justice will never admit defeat ever, but I can't help responding.
Anyways, the Franziska parallel you keep trying to bring up doesn't work. Manfred specifically trained her to be a prosecutor and didn't kick her out of his house at age 13 to fend for herself. He provided her a place to stay, presumably paid for her education and used his connections to get her started prosecuting in Germany.
Zak Gramarye abandoned Trucy for seven years and upon returning planned to ruin her adoptive father's career because "i haet losing, lol"
Zak Gramarye: A worse father than Manfred von Karma. And Manfred von Karma is a pretty shitty father to begin with.
Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Quote:
Phoenix only took four cases a year, mostly from people who never paid!
Not that Zak knew that, often the attorney's are pretty well off (Grossberg, Kristoph, even Mia considering she owns her own office and company).
Also it's better for him to guarantee he goes to a good person as had it been up to child services the family that picked her up may not have been 100% good. If Zak chooses someone himself then it's best as he seems to be a good judge of Character.
Quote:
And in any case Phoenix lost his badge pretty much that day, and Trucy didn't go to Phoenix until two weeks later. What was Trucy doing in those two weeks and why didn't Zak change plans when he learned that Phoenix was ruined?
What Trucy was doing then doesn't seem especially important, I'd still like to think the police would be questionning her about her father's plans and would be looking after her well. Also I believe Zak COULDN'T change plans, especially if the former was true and there was nothing he could do to contact his daughter in police custody.
Quote:
Expecting a 15 year old to work "the big time" and earn a living for herself and her father is ridiculously jerky.
"She's a Gramayre....she's born for stardom" is more or less what I can imagine Zak thinking about this, especially since she mastered the Mr Hat trick at a very early age along with numerous other tricks. Plus considering how it turned out with just her and Phoenix living together I'd say she proved capable, like a Matilda of the Phoenix Wright universe. Zak had full confidence in his daughter's talents nothing jerky about that.
The bottle incident I would put down to a fit of anger and judging by the way he slumped defeated in the chair afterwards while Phoenix was obviously going to call the police I'd say he regretted it as well. Though it is odd the most damage Olga would have is a bruise to the back of the neck but then again...look at Phoenix's luck when it comes to injuries.
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Pierre wrote:
Not that Zak knew that, often the attorney's are pretty well off (Grossberg, Kristoph, even Mia considering she owns her own office and company).
I think he could probably tell. Compared to all the other attorneys from the series, Phoenix has a pretty cheap looking suit. I know that isn't very decisive, but it is Zak's daughter. You'd think he spend a few minutes to do a little research or just ask Phoenix in an indirect way (For example: Zak, "How much should I pay you?" Phoenix, "x amount of money should be good, most of my clients don't pay me anyways")
Pierre wrote:
What Trucy was doing then doesn't seem especially important, I'd still like to think the police would be questionning her about her father's plans and would be looking after her well. Also I believe Zak COULDN'T change plans, especially if the former was true and there was nothing he could do to contact his daughter in police custody.
I don't think the police would question an 8 year old girl for 2 weeks. I guess they could have had her in custody. But how would she be at Phoenix's office though when he talked to her? Don't forget, Phoenix didn't officially adopt her until after he talked to her in his office.
Pierre wrote:
"She's a Gramayre....she's born for stardom" is more or less what I can imagine Zak thinking about this, especially since she mastered the Mr Hat trick at a very early age along with numerous other tricks. Plus considering how it turned out with just her and Phoenix living together I'd say she proved capable, like a Matilda of the Phoenix Wright universe. Zak had full confidence in his daughter's talents nothing jerky about that.
But that's just one trick. Without another magician influencing her life, how is she supposed to learn any other magic tricks? She might be able to come up with a few herself, but how would that be enough to run an entire show and make a living off of it? In fact, how does he even know if she's still interested in magic? There are plenty of things I liked doing when I was 8 years old that I don't enjoy anymore. In fact, when I was 8, I wanted to be a veterinarian. That was 7 years ago. Nowadays I'm so afraid of shots I cant even watch my dog get one, much less administer it myself.
Pierre wrote:
The bottle incident I would put down to a fit of anger and judging by the way he slumped defeated in the chair afterwards while Phoenix was obviously going to call the police I'd say he regretted it as well. Though it is odd the most damage Olga would have is a bruise to the back of the neck but then again...look at Phoenix's luck when it comes to injuries.
Um...Zak was dead. Of course he was slumped in his chair! How does that prove that he felt guilty in any way!?
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