Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Okay, I admit he can't really tell Nick ahead of time without coming off as suspicious. But couldn't he have left a note or something? He left it completely up to chance, the chance that Phoenix would go and offer to adopt his daughter. Yes he has good perception skills, but he can't tell the future. Nick could just as easily ignored Trucy (which he wouldn't do, and maybe Zak saw that he's not the type of person to leave someone behind), or more likely, because he has no job and no experience as a father, send her off to child services (which, isn't always bad, look at Apollo for example).
Therefore, he's kind of an irresponsible father. And what's even more, now that he knows Nick lost his badge, he came back and tried to take away his source of income. As I said before, if he wants a girl of 15 to work alone to support the family, much less his daughter, then he's even a bigger jerk as well as a horrible father. Talented or not, would you want your daughter to shoulder all the finances to support the family?? She's not even finished school yet! Does Zak want her to quit school so she can work to feed Phoenix? What kind of father does that??
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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you see,the rights allow her the possession of magnifi's magical stuff,and his magic tricks and all that,with these things in trucy's hands,she should be able to afford for the family without much difficulty,without much effort and without needing to sacrifice school at all
after all,the gramaryes are very popular,the gramarye fanbase should make it even easier for trucy to earn more attendance and cash with the gramerye rights,equipment,magic tricks and all that stuff that made the grameryes so famous
Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Yes, she's a magician and probably doesn't need to go to school since her career is all set. But still, I'd think good fathers would want their kids to at least have a high school education.....
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Quote:
I think he could probably tell. Compared to all the other attorneys from the series, Phoenix has a pretty cheap looking suit. I know that isn't very decisive, but it is Zak's daughter. You'd think he spend a few minutes to do a little research or just ask Phoenix in an indirect way (For example: Zak, "How much should I pay you?" Phoenix, "x amount of money should be good, most of my clients don't pay me anyways")
What makes you say it's especially cheap? And Zak had very limited time seeing as Phoenix was a last minute attorney to research him, was probably planning his escape more.
Quote:
I don't think the police would question an 8 year old girl for 2 weeks. I guess they could have had her in custody. But how would she be at Phoenix's office though when he talked to her? Don't forget, Phoenix didn't officially adopt her until after he talked to her in his office.
Custody for two weeks is fine, besides who says they wouldn't let her out at all? She could have said Mr Wright was a friend and she wanted to thank him for trying to save her daddy, a sympathetic detective would easily give her a lift (imagine if she had asked Gumshoe). Though I still don't think Trucy's whereabouts are important, the Police still would be keeping an eye on her in case Zak returned.
Quote:
But that's just one trick. Without another magician influencing her life, how is she supposed to learn any other magic tricks? She might be able to come up with a few herself, but how would that be enough to run an entire show and make a living off of it? In fact, how does he even know if she's still interested in magic? There are plenty of things I liked doing when I was 8 years old that I don't enjoy anymore. In fact, when I was 8, I wanted to be a veterinarian. That was 7 years ago. Nowadays I'm so afraid of shots I cant even watch my dog get one, much less administer it myself.
Sure it is, but we don't know she doesn't know more. Besides even though she didn't have another magician influencing her life she still knows enough tricks once grown up to put on impressive magic displays that baffle science and raise enough money. Now assuming she had no one to teach her after Zak's disappearance, it's possible Zak had already taught her everything she knows as a teenager (though I'd like to think magic panties was her own creation). Besides Zak had raised her on magic and thought she loved it...which she did and she DID do it so many years later, hell he may even have sat down and watched one of her shows before going to that fateful poker game since he was in the area. Point is, Trucy even without another magician CAN and DOES support her family so presumably Zak had taught her more than just Mr Hat.
Quote:
Um...Zak was dead. Of course he was slumped in his chair! How does that prove that he felt guilty in any way!?
Correction he was killed IN the chair. It's not like he was killed then fell into it. Here's a scenario:
Zak's just brained Olga who is lying on the Floor.
Phoenix sighs, unnaturally cool considering the situation but gives Zak an intense glare "I'm calling the cops...."
Zak stumbles still somewhat unnerved from the adrenaline flowing through his system. He makes for Phoenix to stop him or plead with him without even checking Olga however Nick is nearer the door and closes it locking him in the small room. Left with himself and glancing at Olga in disbelief Zak drops the bottle which clatters to the floor before collapsing into his chair. Shaking he reaches up and removes his trusty hat to wipe a bead of sweat from his brow. Placing his hat on the table he holds his head in his hands. All my plans..I gave up my daughter...years of avoiding the law...foiled by this? thoughts race through his head as guilt sets in and he leans back. Suddenly there is a swift grating noise behind him, swivelling around.......
And we all know the rest. Point is I think this is a plausible indication that he was indeed feeling rather down about it.
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Pierre wrote:
What makes you say it's especially cheap? And Zak had very limited time seeing as Phoenix was a last minute attorney to research him, was probably planning his escape more.
So his escape plans are more important than his daughter's future?
Pierre wrote:
Custody for two weeks is fine, besides who says they wouldn't let her out at all? She could have said Mr Wright was a friend and she wanted to thank him for trying to save her daddy, a sympathetic detective would easily give her a lift (imagine if she had asked Gumshoe). Though I still don't think Trucy's whereabouts are important, the Police still would be keeping an eye on her in case Zak returned.
Wasn't it you though that was talking about how Zak wouldn't be able to contact Trucy because she was in police custody and that the police were watching her closely? If that is true, then there is no way that she'd be allowed to leave with some random person that has no family relations to her. And if the police weren't watching her closely, then that definantly means Zak could have contacted her.
Pierre wrote:
Sure it is, but we don't know she doesn't know more. Besides even though she didn't have another magician influencing her life she still knows enough tricks once grown up to put on impressive magic displays that baffle science and raise enough money. Now assuming she had no one to teach her after Zak's disappearance, it's possible Zak had already taught her everything she knows as a teenager (though I'd like to think magic panties was her own creation). Besides Zak had raised her on magic and thought she loved it...which she did and she DID do it so many years later, hell he may even have sat down and watched one of her shows before going to that fateful poker game since he was in the area. Point is, Trucy even without another magician CAN and DOES support her family so presumably Zak had taught her more than just Mr Hat.
So your basically saying that Zak ditched Trucy and expected her to make a career out of being a magician? That's not a very promising career choice. Just because Trucy LIKES magic, doesn't mean she's going to be GOOD at it. Take Valant for example. I believe it was Magnifi that told him that he wasn't as talented as Zak, which is why he didn't get the rights. Also, Valant admitted that he has been struggling for years as a magician. Just because Zak set up Trucy to be a magician and that it could work, doesn't mean it was the responsible thing to do. So that means you still doesn't dissprove the fact that Zak is a jerky father for expecting his daughter to make a living for herself AND Phoenix at 15 years old.
Pierre wrote:
Correction he was killed IN the chair. It's not like he was killed then fell into it. Here's a scenario:
Zak's just brained Olga who is lying on the Floor.
Phoenix sighs, unnaturally cool considering the situation but gives Zak an intense glare "I'm calling the cops...."
Zak stumbles still somewhat unnerved from the adrenaline flowing through his system. He makes for Phoenix to stop him or plead with him without even checking Olga however Nick is nearer the door and closes it locking him in the small room. Left with himself and glancing at Olga in disbelief Zak drops the bottle which clatters to the floor before collapsing into his chair. Shaking he reaches up and removes his trusty hat to wipe a bead of sweat from his brow. Placing his hat on the table he holds his head in his hands. All my plans..I gave up my daughter...years of avoiding the law...foiled by this? thoughts race through his head as guilt sets in and he leans back. Suddenly there is a swift grating noise behind him, swivelling around.......
And we all know the rest. Point is I think this is a plausible indication that he was indeed feeling rather down about it.
Zak's just brained Olga who is lying on the Floor.
Phoenix sighs, unnaturally cool considering the situation but gives Zak an intense glare "I'm calling the cops...."
Zak stumbles still somewhat unnerved from the adrenaline flowing through his system. He makes for Phoenix to stop him or plead with him without even checking Olga however Nick is nearer the door and closes it locking him in the small room. Left with himself and glancing at Olga in disbelief Zak drops the bottle which clatters to the floor before collapsing into his chair. Shaking he reaches up and removes his trusty hat to wipe a bead of sweat from his brow. Placing his hat on the table he holds his head in his hands. All my plans..I gave up my daughter...years of avoiding the law...foiled by this? thoughts race through his head as guilt sets in and he leans back. Suddenly there is a swift grating noise behind him, swivelling around.......
And we all know the rest. Point is I think this is a plausible indication that he was indeed feeling rather down about it.
I never said he fell into the chair. I'm saying that when he died, because he was no longer alive and could no longer sit up, he ended being slumped in his chair. Put it this way; if you fell asleep sitting up in a chair, wouldn't you slump over since you are no longer concious? Same thing with dying in a chair. In fact, you would slump even more. Also, he was hit with a bottle. There's no way he would be sitting straight up if he was killed sitting in a chair with a blow to the head. I really don't see how you can draw any sort of conclusions about his guilt from his position in the chair after death.
Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Quote:
So his escape plans are more important than his daughter's future?
Again I WILL point out.
No Escape = Orphaned Trucy and Phoenix loses his badge anyway
Escape= Zak lives with the chance to return althought Phoenix still loses his badge.
It was very important, especially since he'd reassured Trucy the trial wouldn't catch him, would be traumatising for her to hear her father sentenced to death.
Quote:
Wasn't it you though that was talking about how Zak wouldn't be able to contact Trucy because she was in police custody and that the police were watching her closely? If that is true, then there is no way that she'd be allowed to leave with some random person that has no family relations to her. And if the police weren't watching her closely, then that definantly means Zak could have contacted her.
Did I say she wasn't? I said a DETECTIVE would take her out. After 2 weeks I'm sure the police's questions if any would be finished and so when Phoenix offered to adopt her they were happy. I'm suggesting only a detective escorted her, in a car after listening to her suggestion. Therefore not just anyone could've taken her. Besides the police can keep tabs on people without them being held in their own precinct or with a detective at all times.
Quote:
So your basically saying that Zak ditched Trucy and expected her to make a career out of being a magician? That's not a very promising career choice. Just because Trucy LIKES magic, doesn't mean she's going to be GOOD at it. Take Valant for example. I believe it was Magnifi that told him that he wasn't as talented as Zak, which is why he didn't get the rights. Also, Valant admitted that he has been struggling for years as a magician. Just because Zak set up Trucy to be a magician and that it could work, doesn't mean it was the responsible thing to do. So that means you still doesn't dissprove the fact that Zak is a jerky father for expecting his daughter to make a living for herself AND Phoenix at 15 years old.
You're missing something. Once again you said she has had no more Magician's in her life, unless Uncle Valant visited several times, she either taught herself OR.....she was already a perfectly capable magician when Zak left because he'd taught her himself and she'd learned all the tricks she knows later from him. Zak had probably planned for her to join the troupe officially once she'd grown up and financial security and smart decisions isn't something most of the characters plan for: Godot wastes several pounds worth of coffee per trial, Phoenix barely ever gets paid, Franny whips people in spite of potential lawsuits. Just because Zak wasn't thinking of college and a job later in life doesn't make him bad. Trucy had the passion and the talent for magic from a young age, she uses it to profit and support her family later on while still attending Education.
Quote:
I never said he fell into the chair. I'm saying that when he died, because he was no longer alive and could no longer sit up, he ended being slumped in his chair. Put it this way; if you fell asleep sitting up in a chair, wouldn't you slump over since you are no longer concious? Same thing with dying in a chair. In fact, you would slump even more. Also, he was hit with a bottle. There's no way he would be sitting straight up if he was killed sitting in a chair with a blow to the head. I really don't see how you can draw any sort of conclusions about his guilt from his position in the chair after death.
And I don't see how you can draw guilt out of thin air, it's not like he laughed maniacally after the deed. Besides if he hadn't been leaning back slumped in the chair the bottle couldn't have hit him so squarely in the center of his forehead, it would have collided with the top of his skull or higher up the forehead. Zak would've been leaning back at looking up at the time.
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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To be honest, Zak was lucky to escape the courtroom. He escaped only because Meekins was the guard. He's so incompetent that he got FIRED FROM AN ALREADY WELL KNOWN INCOMPETENT POLICE FORCE. That speaks for itself. I doubt Zak would of escaped if anybody else was guarding. With the possible exception of Larry Butz.
Also, while I know Trucy has exceptionial skills for a 15 year old, she can't do everything. Let's say Zak's was successful in his scheme to fire Phoenix, then gets the bottle to his head by Kristoph. Now Trucy has to support 2 people. Apollo probably goes somewhere else for employment. What's going to happen when Wesley Stickler steals the Magic Panties? Which is a major part of her Magic Act. She may not find them without Apollo around. I know what i'm talking about has nothing to do with Zak's actions, just giving an example of what might happen if Phoenix got fired.
About the Trucy adopted by Phoenix thing, maybe Zak found out or knew about Phoenix's "relationship" with Maya and Pearl and thought Phoenix could take care of Trucy? Still, that doesn't really mean Phoenix will take care of Trucy.
About Brushel taking care of Trucy, while it's true Brushel was a kind hearted person, that alone doesn't qualify for being a good parent.
Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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And even if Trucy's panties had been lost she could simply pull out Magnifi's legendary tricks as new acts and make a fortune, bringing Magic back to the golden age it used to enjoy, this would inevitably draw Valant once he heard the old tricks were being performed again and he may join up with Trucy forming a new Troupe.
Sure it'd be sad her panties went missing but they could easily buy another pair and with the rights to legendary magic tricks she could rocket to fame and stardom.
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Pierre wrote:
Again I WILL point out.
No Escape = Orphaned Trucy and Phoenix loses his badge anyway
Did I say she wasn't? I said a DETECTIVE would take her out. After 2 weeks I'm sure the police's questions if any would be finished and so when Phoenix offered to adopt her they were happy.
No Escape = Orphaned Trucy and Phoenix loses his badge anyway
Did I say she wasn't? I said a DETECTIVE would take her out. After 2 weeks I'm sure the police's questions if any would be finished and so when Phoenix offered to adopt her they were happy.
Ace Attorney world is lax about a lot of things, but I really don't believe that Phoenix adopting Trucy was 100% legal, especially to the point that a police officer would know and be okay with it just two weeks after Phoenix was found guilty of evidence tampering...! They must have some semblance of Child Services in place. If Trucy didn't go to Phoenix she wouldn't have been alone on the streets, that's for sure.
Personally I like the theory that Phoenix had the Mishams forge him some adoption papers, but that's just a pet theory B:
Quote:
OR.....she was already a perfectly capable magician when Zak left because he'd taught her himself and she'd learned all the tricks she knows later from him.
If at age 8 Trucy was considered a "capable magician" the Troupe Gramarye show must be pretty pathetic, I have to say! It's like pitting an 8 year old boxer against an adult: you can teach them technique, but execution, style, and basic ability have to factor in.
15 year old Trucy does a show that helps support her and her dad, but what about 9 year old Trucy? I seriously hope she wasn't at the Wonderbar flashing her panties at that age.
Quote:
Besides if he hadn't been leaning back slumped in the chair the bottle couldn't have hit him so squarely in the center of his forehead, it would have collided with the top of his skull or higher up the forehead. Zak would've been leaning back at looking up at the time.
Of course Zak was leaning back and looking up: he was seated and Kristoph was standing. And just because he didn't flee the scene didn't mean he was slumped with guilt--he could have been seething in rage for all we know. The only evidence we have is that he got mad and bashed someone unconscious.
Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Quote:
Ace Attorney world is lax about a lot of things, but I really don't believe that Phoenix adopting Trucy was 100% legal, especially to the point that a police officer would know and be okay with it just two weeks after Phoenix was found guilty of evidence tampering...! They must have some semblance of Child Services in place. If Trucy didn't go to Phoenix she wouldn't have been alone on the streets, that's for sure.
Personally I like the theory that Phoenix had the Mishams forge him some adoption papers, but that's just a pet theory B:
Personally I like the theory that Phoenix had the Mishams forge him some adoption papers, but that's just a pet theory B:
Sorry maybe you misunderstood but by orphaned I meant her real father would be dead I didn't mean she'd be totally without house and home.
And that theory sounds cool, Drew OWES Phoenix anyway.
Quote:
If at age 8 Trucy was considered a "capable magician" the Troupe Gramarye show must be pretty pathetic, I have to say! It's like pitting an 8 year old boxer against an adult: you can teach them technique, but execution, style, and basic ability have to factor in.
15 year old Trucy does a show that helps support her and her dad, but what about 9 year old Trucy? I seriously hope she wasn't at the Wonderbar flashing her panties at that age
15 year old Trucy does a show that helps support her and her dad, but what about 9 year old Trucy? I seriously hope she wasn't at the Wonderbar flashing her panties at that age
Au contraire mademoiselle I believe it indicates the opposite. That Troupe Gramarye is wonderful to feature such a child prodigy in the field of magic. While I don't believe she was doing her Magic Panties trick with her father (Phoenix said they had to buy them online) I do believe her father taught her a great deal of impressive magic. Besides remember, Phoenix's salary alone is not enough to support them both. She would HAVE to have been doing her magic shows from a young age after her father left and they would have to be successful in order to earn enough income for her and Phoenix.
Quote:
Of course Zak was leaning back and looking up: he was seated and Kristoph was standing. And just because he didn't flee the scene didn't mean he was slumped with guilt--he could have been seething in rage for all we know. The only evidence we have is that he got mad and bashed someone unconscious.
Granted that's possible too but it could swing either way I think in this situation.
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Pierre wrote:
Au contraire mademoiselle I believe it indicates the opposite. That Troupe Gramarye is wonderful to feature such a child prodigy in the field of magic. While I don't believe she was doing her Magic Panties trick with her father (Phoenix said they had to buy them online) I do believe her father taught her a great deal of impressive magic. Besides remember, Phoenix's salary alone is not enough to support them both. She would HAVE to have been doing her magic shows from a young age after her father left and they would have to be successful in order to earn enough income for her and Phoenix.
That's the problem though; that kind of stuff takes a lot of skill and practice to master. Its one thing to perform alongside a talented magician as an assistance, as opposed to running the show yourself. Take Phoenix for example. He would have never one his first few trials without the help of Mia or Maya. In fact, he even gets help in Trials and Tribulations, which is after he's already done several tough cases. That's because being a really good lawyer takes a lot of skill and experience, just like being a really good magician that people would pay money to see. You just can't possibly expect a young child like Trucy to run an entire show by herself with absolutely no help.
Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Demon Cat wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Au contraire mademoiselle I believe it indicates the opposite. That Troupe Gramarye is wonderful to feature such a child prodigy in the field of magic. While I don't believe she was doing her Magic Panties trick with her father (Phoenix said they had to buy them online) I do believe her father taught her a great deal of impressive magic. Besides remember, Phoenix's salary alone is not enough to support them both. She would HAVE to have been doing her magic shows from a young age after her father left and they would have to be successful in order to earn enough income for her and Phoenix.
That's the problem though; that kind of stuff takes a lot of skill and practice to master. Its one thing to perform alongside a talented magician as an assistance, as opposed to running the show yourself. Take Phoenix for example. He would have never one his first few trials without the help of Mia or Maya. In fact, he even gets help in Trials and Tribulations, which is after he's already done several tough cases. That's because being a really good lawyer takes a lot of skill and experience, just like being a really good magician that people would pay money to see. You just can't possibly expect a young child like Trucy to run an entire show by herself with absolutely no help.
And yet she would have to have done such a thing in order to keep the 'family' afloat.
It's not like she's only recently started doing magic shows before the events of Apollo Justice. Her family has been struggling right from the get go, maybe she had Phoenix be her assistant in the beginning but it doesn't prevent the fact she would HAVE to have been earning money to feed the family from a young age.
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Pierre wrote:
Demon Cat wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Au contraire mademoiselle I believe it indicates the opposite. That Troupe Gramarye is wonderful to feature such a child prodigy in the field of magic. While I don't believe she was doing her Magic Panties trick with her father (Phoenix said they had to buy them online) I do believe her father taught her a great deal of impressive magic. Besides remember, Phoenix's salary alone is not enough to support them both. She would HAVE to have been doing her magic shows from a young age after her father left and they would have to be successful in order to earn enough income for her and Phoenix.
That's the problem though; that kind of stuff takes a lot of skill and practice to master. Its one thing to perform alongside a talented magician as an assistance, as opposed to running the show yourself. Take Phoenix for example. He would have never one his first few trials without the help of Mia or Maya. In fact, he even gets help in Trials and Tribulations, which is after he's already done several tough cases. That's because being a really good lawyer takes a lot of skill and experience, just like being a really good magician that people would pay money to see. You just can't possibly expect a young child like Trucy to run an entire show by herself with absolutely no help.
And yet she would have to have done such a thing in order to keep the 'family' afloat.
It's not like she's only recently started doing magic shows before the events of Apollo Justice. Her family has been struggling right from the get go, maybe she had Phoenix be her assistant in the beginning but it doesn't prevent the fact she would HAVE to have been earning money to feed the family from a young age.
I don't see how having Phoenix as an assistant would help her in any way. He doesn't know anything about magic!
Either way, whether she COULD have done it really isn't the question. The question is whether it was realistic or not for Zak to expect his 8-15 year old daughter to earn an income to support 2 people with extremely limited resources. Considering the fact that magic isn't a very promising career to begin with, and the fact that she has no help at all, I would say that Zak's reasoning is extremely flawed. And besides, Zak knew what Phoenix and Trucy's financial situation was when he met Phoenix and gave him the rights. He could obviously see that they were already struggling. Its not like a 15 year old girl is exactly an expert at managing money. And Phoenix...He's been poor pretty much his whole life, so he probably can't manage money well either. So why would Zak make their problems even worse by taking away Phoenix's poker career? The only logical conclusion is that Zak is a jerk and just plain and simple doesn't care. He'd rather watch someone suffer for his own personal entertainment than to stop and think "Gee, I might be destroying this guy's life right now! Maybe I should rethink this, especially after he raised my daughter for 7 years in my absence." This is just scratching the surface of what makes Zak Gramarye a jerk and a horrible father.
Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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The fact is:
Trucy MUST have been supporting the family from a young age.
THEREFORE
She MUST have had a great degree of magic talent, enough to profit with.
FURTHERMORE
It's highly likely Zak knew about her prodigal skills being the one who trained her.
FOR ALL WE KNOW
He could have instructed her to support her new father with shows of wondrous magicks and earn money knowing just how successful she was.
Why he beat Phoenix: Possibly for the exact reasons he said, fame in the poker leagues
BUT
By giving the rights to Trucy she would be able to perform spectacular shows and revive magic in the public's eyes earning fame and stardom meaning any job Phoenix had would be unnecessary as long as he looked after Trucy.
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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I personally don't think Phoenix would be a good assistant. He isn't even around half the time. You know, between "playing the piano" and trying to convict the forger. This was even before Zak tried to ruin Phoenix.
My turn to ask a question. Did Zak make use of Trucy's (or Thalassa/Lamorir) "Talent" in a similar matter to Phoenix? I've just been wondering about that. I'd like to hear any thoughts anyone may have.
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rydus65 wrote:
^Even with Trucy's extraordinary talent, there's only so much one person can do. Trucy isn't Supergirl. That's probably what Phoenix was talking about when he said "Because only I know how she feels on the inside." Well, besides Zak and possibly Valant. And maybe Apollo.
I personally don't think Phoenix would be a good assistant. He isn't even around half the time. You know, between "playing the piano" and trying to convict the forger. This was even before Zak tried to ruin Phoenix.
My turn to ask a question. Did Zak make use of Trucy's (or Thalassa/Lamorir) "Talent" in a similar matter to Phoenix? I've just been wondering about that. I'd like to hear any thoughts anyone may have.
I personally don't think Phoenix would be a good assistant. He isn't even around half the time. You know, between "playing the piano" and trying to convict the forger. This was even before Zak tried to ruin Phoenix.
My turn to ask a question. Did Zak make use of Trucy's (or Thalassa/Lamorir) "Talent" in a similar matter to Phoenix? I've just been wondering about that. I'd like to hear any thoughts anyone may have.
Phoenix might not even be necessary as an assistant but if people insist she would have struggled on her own DESPITE THE FACT SHE CLEARLY SUCCEEDED then Phoenix would make a.....passable assistant since all he would be doing is following orders.
And I think Zak is a naturally good poker player and I'm not even sure he knew of the talent since it was really in Thalassa's blood not his own.
And considering Trucy is supporting a family at the age of 15 and before that pretty well I'd say she IS kinda a supergirl. It's a title a tabloid paper might go for her.
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Pierre wrote:
Trucy MUST have been supporting the family from a young age.
Once again, its not whether she COULD support her family, its whether Zak is a jerk for forcing her to support her family
Pierre wrote:
She MUST have had a great degree of magic talent, enough to profit with.
We can't exactly know that for sure. Once again, just because she likes magic, doesn't mean she's good at it. Sure, she's good with the Mr. Hat trick, but that's just one trick. I suppose if I master swinging a baseball bat to hit the ball that I can play in the major leagues? No, it doesn't work that way. I have to master catching the ball, running fast to all the bases, and working with a team. Not to mention very few people would ever become proffesional baseball players, just like very few people would become professional magicians. And don't even think about saying "She's a Gramarye!!!" My parents are really talented with sports, and both me AND my brother suck at EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM.
Pierre wrote:
It's highly likely Zak knew about her prodigal skills being the one who trained her.
Just because he trained her, doesn't mean he'd know. Some people take YEARS to figure out that their kid has a learning disability because they are IN DENIAL. Not saying Trucy has a disibility, just an example.
Pierre wrote:
He could have instructed her to support her new father with shows of wondrous magicks and earn money knowing just how successful she was.
Why would he do that? It's not like he planned on becoming a suspect in a murder case. Or are you saying that he planned on leaving for no reason at all?
Pierre wrote:
By giving the rights to Trucy she would be able to perform spectacular shows and revive magic in the public's eyes earning fame and stardom meaning any job Phoenix had would be unnecessary as long as he looked after Trucy.
I believe someone in this topic already said something like this, but I'll say it again anyways. If someone has a broken leg, does that make it okay for me to break the person's other leg JUST BECAUSE "Oh, his right leg is broken, so he doesn't need his left leg anymore". Could a robber get away with stealing a million dollors from a billionare just because "He doesn't need it"? Just because someone doesn't need something, doesn't give you the right to take it away.
Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Quote:
Once again, its not whether she COULD support her family, its whether Zak is a jerk for forcing her to support her family
Zak had no choice. It was leave everything behind or die.
Quote:
We can't exactly know that for sure. Once again, just because she likes magic, doesn't mean she's good at it. Sure, she's good with the Mr. Hat trick, but that's just one trick. I suppose if I master swinging a baseball bat to hit the ball that I can play in the major leagues? No, it doesn't work that way. I have to master catching the ball, running fast to all the bases, and working with a team. Not to mention very few people would ever become proffesional baseball players, just like very few people would become professional magicians. And don't even think about saying "She's a Gramarye!!!" My parents are really talented with sports, and both me AND my brother suck at EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM.
Since Magic was essentially dead and we've assumed Zak trained her. There are no other magical influences in her life that we know of.
Therefore it's possible she knew EVERY SINGLE SPELL AND TRICK at 15 when she was 8 as there would be no one else to teach her, though I do believe she developed Magic Panties herself. She likes magic AND is good at it.
Quote:
Just because he trained her, doesn't mean he'd know. Some people take YEARS to figure out that their kid has a learning disability because they are IN DENIAL. Not saying Trucy has a disibility, just an example.
I think this example is way off. There's a major difference between training someone and seeing they have a definite aptitude for a subject and misdiagnosing your child's asperger's syndrome for shynesss. There's no way Zak couldn't tell she was good at magic when she does the tricks correctly!
Quote:
Why would he do that? It's not like he planned on becoming a suspect in a murder case. Or are you saying that he planned on leaving for no reason at all?
No but he'd always planned on leaving the murder trial. If he left the trial it would make him look guilty misdirecting the blame from Valant and get him away scott free. Zak and Valant had known each other longer and must've been good friends for Zak to want to give up his life like that.
Quote:
I believe someone in this topic already said something like this, but I'll say it again anyways. If someone has a broken leg, does that make it okay for me to break the person's other leg JUST BECAUSE "Oh, his right leg is broken, so he doesn't need his left leg anymore". Could a robber get away with stealing a million dollors from a billionare just because "He doesn't need it"? Just because someone doesn't need something, doesn't give you the right to take it away.
Granted maybe Zak did have flawed logic but he's not perfect after all, prone to fits of rage being one problem but I'd consider it some compensation when in Zak's eyes Phoenix is losing a career, Zak is gaining fame in certain circles and Trucy and Phoenix start living the good life.
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Demon Cat wrote:
I believe someone in this topic already said something like this, but I'll say it again anyways. If someone has a broken leg, does that make it okay for me to break the person's other leg JUST BECAUSE "Oh, his right leg is broken, so he doesn't need his left leg anymore". Could a robber get away with stealing a million dollors from a billionare just because "He doesn't need it"? Just because someone doesn't need something, doesn't give you the right to take it away.
but zak didn't do the stealing of the million dollars alone,beforehand he gave 10 million dollars to the billionair's adoptive child.
in wright's situation,wright and trucy have to share the money to be able to live,zak giving wright trucy's rights greatly benifited both of wright and trucy,yes,wright losing his poker career would negativly affect both of them,but not even close to as much postive affection the rights will do.
so you see,it's like zak broke wright's 2 ghz computer after giving trucy a 7ghz computer in which,both trucy and wright always share the same computer.
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Phoenix_Justice wrote:
Demon Cat wrote:
I believe someone in this topic already said something like this, but I'll say it again anyways. If someone has a broken leg, does that make it okay for me to break the person's other leg JUST BECAUSE "Oh, his right leg is broken, so he doesn't need his left leg anymore". Could a robber get away with stealing a million dollors from a billionare just because "He doesn't need it"? Just because someone doesn't need something, doesn't give you the right to take it away.
but zak didn't do the stealing of the million dollars alone,beforehand he gave 10 million dollars to the billionair's adoptive child.
in wright's situation,wright and trucy have to share the money to be able to live,zak giving wright trucy's rights greatly benifited both of wright and trucy,yes,wright losing his poker career would negativly affect both of them,but not even close to as much postive affection the rights will do.
so you see,it's like zak broke wright's 2 ghz computer after giving trucy a 7ghz computer in which,both trucy and wright always share the same computer.
This way everybody wins (in the long run, Phoenix certainly would've lost the card game if Olga wasn't so thick).
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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rydus65 wrote:
It isn't fair to blame Olga for the card trick failing. She'd had no idea Phoenix would find the card. Even Phoenix himself said that he was lucky to find the card and hid it. I think Zak knew that as well, and Zak hitting Olga with the bottle wasn't so much that the trap failed as he was pissed that he lost and/or the trap failed. It definitely was a jerkish thing to do, but you know what they say about poor losers....
Olga's services probably cost him a substantial amount of money...since she apparently has quite the reputation in the criminal underworld. She clearly wasn't worth it to place the card in such an easy to find place....especially considering that if she'd spent any time studying her 'mark' she would notice he spends most of his time with his hands in the very pockets she hid the card in. It's quite understandable why Zak would get mad at such a squandered plan.
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Pierre wrote:
rydus65 wrote:
It isn't fair to blame Olga for the card trick failing. She'd had no idea Phoenix would find the card. Even Phoenix himself said that he was lucky to find the card and hid it. I think Zak knew that as well, and Zak hitting Olga with the bottle wasn't so much that the trap failed as he was pissed that he lost and/or the trap failed. It definitely was a jerkish thing to do, but you know what they say about poor losers....
Olga's services probably cost him a substantial amount of money...since she apparently has quite the reputation in the criminal underworld. She clearly wasn't worth it to place the card in such an easy to find place....especially considering that if she'd spent any time studying her 'mark' she would notice he spends most of his time with his hands in the very pockets she hid the card in. It's quite understandable why Zak would get mad at such a squandered plan.
Well, where else would she had hidden the card without Phoenix noticing? Unfortunately for Olga and Zak, the pockets are the only place I see that the card could go without Phoenix noticing. Maybe you have someplace in mind?
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rydus65 wrote:
Pierre wrote:
rydus65 wrote:
It isn't fair to blame Olga for the card trick failing. She'd had no idea Phoenix would find the card. Even Phoenix himself said that he was lucky to find the card and hid it. I think Zak knew that as well, and Zak hitting Olga with the bottle wasn't so much that the trap failed as he was pissed that he lost and/or the trap failed. It definitely was a jerkish thing to do, but you know what they say about poor losers....
Olga's services probably cost him a substantial amount of money...since she apparently has quite the reputation in the criminal underworld. She clearly wasn't worth it to place the card in such an easy to find place....especially considering that if she'd spent any time studying her 'mark' she would notice he spends most of his time with his hands in the very pockets she hid the card in. It's quite understandable why Zak would get mad at such a squandered plan.
Well, where else would she had hidden the card without Phoenix noticing? Unfortunately for Olga and Zak, the pockets are the only place I see that the card could go without Phoenix noticing. Maybe you have someplace in mind?
Of course I do. The very place Phoenix hid the card himself.
Another thing one could easily observe from spending time around Nick is that he enjoys his grape juice it would be simple to slip it into an empty bottle and plant it at the scene. Then when Zak goes to do his body check and is near the ground examining his shoes/ankles/trousers he spies the bottle with it's secret content BAM Nick can be accused. Otherwise the less likely back pocket of his baggy pants would do. If she had the opportunity to slip a card into his front pocket then could easily do the same. Otherwise do the age old prank of slipping it into his hood. He wears a hat and is inside so it's highly unlikely he'd put the hood up.
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The bottle plan idea, while much better than the hood, has 4 minor flaws.
1. Phoenix already hid a card in one earlier.
2. Phoenix could accidently step and break said bottle, revealing the card.
3. Who knows how much grape juice Phoenix will drink.
4. The X Factor aka Kristoph Gavin. If he used the bottle to kill Zak with it...
I'd say the back pocket plan was the best idea. In fact, I'm not sure why Olga "Quick Fingers" ORLY didn't use that pocket. Was it ever mentioned which pocket Phoenix found the card?
Then again Olga being "The Master of Cheating" could be a ruse similar to Luke Atmey saying he was an ace detective. Maybe it was Zak who needed to do more research before hiring ORLY.
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rydus65 wrote:
^I doubt the hood thing would work. I'm sure Phoenix would notice if someone was messing with his hat, as he hardly takes it off. People who wear hats all the time are pretty protective of it and don't like people messing with it. Especially if said hat contains a makeshift spy camera.
The bottle plan idea, while much better than the hood, has 4 minor flaws.
1. Phoenix already hid a card in one earlier.
2. Phoenix could accidently step and break said bottle, revealing the card.
3. Who knows how much grape juice Phoenix will drink.
4. The X Factor aka Kristoph Gavin. If he used the bottle to kill Zak with it...
I'd say the back pocket plan was the best idea. In fact, I'm not sure why Olga "Quick Fingers" ORLY didn't use that pocket. Was it ever mentioned which pocket Phoenix found the card?
Then again Olga being "The Master of Cheating" could be a ruse similar to Luke Atmey saying he was an ace detective. Maybe it was Zak who needed to do more research before hiring ORLY.
The bottle plan idea, while much better than the hood, has 4 minor flaws.
1. Phoenix already hid a card in one earlier.
2. Phoenix could accidently step and break said bottle, revealing the card.
3. Who knows how much grape juice Phoenix will drink.
4. The X Factor aka Kristoph Gavin. If he used the bottle to kill Zak with it...
I'd say the back pocket plan was the best idea. In fact, I'm not sure why Olga "Quick Fingers" ORLY didn't use that pocket. Was it ever mentioned which pocket Phoenix found the card?
Then again Olga being "The Master of Cheating" could be a ruse similar to Luke Atmey saying he was an ace detective. Maybe it was Zak who needed to do more research before hiring ORLY.
He has a hood and a hat on his hoody she wouldn't need to mess with his hat and it'd be much easier to slip it in. Besides if she got close enough to put a card IN HIS FRONT POCKET she could surely manage to slip a light object in his hood without him noticing.
Also 1: Phoenix hid the card there after discovering it in his pocket. Erm....if it's already in the bottle then well....you see the obvious flaw in your argument?
2: That's still a risk a lot less likely than him putting his hands in his pocket besides bottles wouldn't break that easily if knocked over unless from a great height, unlike if it was tapped over on the floor.
3: Phoenix keeps a crate with the full bottles while empty or 'in progress' ones are left out. A bottle already under the table would indicate that he'd already finished that one as he would have another on him surely. And he wouldn't choose an old probably emptybottle to drink from when he has a crate of fresh bottles. The crate in question can be seen in the picture of Zak and Phoenix by the piano.
4: But Kristoph didn't use the same bottle, remember the murder weapon was found empty. This indicates there were several empty bottles to hide one 'not so' empty bottle there. Besides Kristoph took his bottle from the restaurant in advance whereas the card bottle would need to be planted in the hydeout for it to be an effective proof of cheating.
And it was his front pockets he found the card in cause he always puts his hands in them. Either way you're only confirming Olga's incompetence and if she was passing herself of as a high-level crime casino dealer then she may have charged Zak high rates for clearly substandard services making his fit of rage possibly justified.
Though this only serves to indicate the Olga is an EVIL DEVIL WOMAN WHO DESERVES TO BE HIT WITH A BOTTLE.
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Pierre wrote:
rydus65 wrote:
^I doubt the hood thing would work. I'm sure Phoenix would notice if someone was messing with his hat, as he hardly takes it off. People who wear hats all the time are pretty protective of it and don't like people messing with it. Especially if said hat contains a makeshift spy camera.
The bottle plan idea, while much better than the hood, has 4 minor flaws.
1. Phoenix already hid a card in one earlier.
2. Phoenix could accidently step and break said bottle, revealing the card.
3. Who knows how much grape juice Phoenix will drink.
4. The X Factor aka Kristoph Gavin. If he used the bottle to kill Zak with it...
I'd say the back pocket plan was the best idea. In fact, I'm not sure why Olga "Quick Fingers" ORLY didn't use that pocket. Was it ever mentioned which pocket Phoenix found the card?
Then again Olga being "The Master of Cheating" could be a ruse similar to Luke Atmey saying he was an ace detective. Maybe it was Zak who needed to do more research before hiring ORLY.
The bottle plan idea, while much better than the hood, has 4 minor flaws.
1. Phoenix already hid a card in one earlier.
2. Phoenix could accidently step and break said bottle, revealing the card.
3. Who knows how much grape juice Phoenix will drink.
4. The X Factor aka Kristoph Gavin. If he used the bottle to kill Zak with it...
I'd say the back pocket plan was the best idea. In fact, I'm not sure why Olga "Quick Fingers" ORLY didn't use that pocket. Was it ever mentioned which pocket Phoenix found the card?
Then again Olga being "The Master of Cheating" could be a ruse similar to Luke Atmey saying he was an ace detective. Maybe it was Zak who needed to do more research before hiring ORLY.
He has a hood and a hat on his hoody she wouldn't need to mess with his hat and it'd be much easier to slip it in. Besides if she got close enough to put a card IN HIS FRONT POCKET she could surely manage to slip a light object in his hood without him noticing.
Also 1: Phoenix hid the card there after discovering it in his pocket. Erm....if it's already in the bottle then well....you see the obvious flaw in your argument?
2: That's still a risk a lot less likely than him putting his hands in his pocket besides bottles wouldn't break that easily if knocked over unless from a great height, unlike if it was tapped over on the floor.
3: Phoenix keeps a crate with the full bottles while empty or 'in progress' ones are left out. A bottle already under the table would indicate that he'd already finished that one as he would have another on him surely. And he wouldn't choose an old probably emptybottle to drink from when he has a crate of fresh bottles. The crate in question can be seen in the picture of Zak and Phoenix by the piano.
4: But Kristoph didn't use the same bottle, remember the murder weapon was found empty. This indicates there were several empty bottles to hide one 'not so' empty bottle there. Besides Kristoph took his bottle from the restaurant in advance whereas the card bottle would need to be planted in the hydeout for it to be an effective proof of cheating.
And it was his front pockets he found the card in cause he always puts his hands in them. Either way you're only confirming Olga's incompetence and if she was passing herself of as a high-level crime casino dealer then she may have charged Zak high rates for clearly substandard services making his fit of rage possibly justified.
Though this only serves to indicate the Olga is an EVIL DEVIL WOMAN WHO DESERVES TO BE HIT WITH A BOTTLE.
excellent deducation and explanation which leads us to knowing the olga getting hit by the bottle isn't a jerkish move
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The whole plan depended just on his and Olga's testimony anyway. I'm not sure why it even mattered that they planted the card on him, if they were just going to march upstairs and say to everyone "LOOK AT THIS 3 OF HEARTS, CLEARLY HE CHEATED!" without evidence to back it up. Which means there was even less reason for him to smack Olga.
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Croik wrote:
I think you're missing a large flaw in the "Olga could have put the card in the bottle" idea. The whole point of hiding the card on him in the first place was to "prove" that he swapped a card out of his hand and replaced it with an Ace he already had on him. Because he found the planted card before the match started he had time to shove it in a bottle, but if Zak tried to tell people, "He was keeping extra cards in his bottles!" who would believe him? How do you sneak cards in and out of a bottle in the middle of a poker match without someone noticing? The hoodie was the best place for the card because Phoenix wears it all the time, there's plenty of room in it for cards, and even if Phoenix had discovered the card while they were playing, the plan would have worked. If he pulled it out and made a "Bzuhh?" face Zak could have just launched right into, "What are you doing with that card!?"
The whole plan depended just on his and Olga's testimony anyway. I'm not sure why it even mattered that they planted the card on him, if they were just going to march upstairs and say to everyone "LOOK AT THIS 3 OF HEARTS, CLEARLY HE CHEATED!" without evidence to back it up. Which means there was even less reason for him to smack Olga.
The whole plan depended just on his and Olga's testimony anyway. I'm not sure why it even mattered that they planted the card on him, if they were just going to march upstairs and say to everyone "LOOK AT THIS 3 OF HEARTS, CLEARLY HE CHEATED!" without evidence to back it up. Which means there was even less reason for him to smack Olga.
This whole derail doesn't even matter, because it doesn't change the important part: ZAK GRAMARYE ASSAULTED A WOMAN WHO WAS NOT IN ANY WAY THREATENING HIM. EVEN IF SHE WAS THE WORST ACCOMPLICE EVER AND FAILED AT THE PLOT IN THE WORST POSSIBLE WAY (which she didn't), ZAK GRAMARYE IS STILL A JERK FOR ASSAULTING HER.
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Icarus wrote:
Croik wrote:
I think you're missing a large flaw in the "Olga could have put the card in the bottle" idea. The whole point of hiding the card on him in the first place was to "prove" that he swapped a card out of his hand and replaced it with an Ace he already had on him. Because he found the planted card before the match started he had time to shove it in a bottle, but if Zak tried to tell people, "He was keeping extra cards in his bottles!" who would believe him? How do you sneak cards in and out of a bottle in the middle of a poker match without someone noticing? The hoodie was the best place for the card because Phoenix wears it all the time, there's plenty of room in it for cards, and even if Phoenix had discovered the card while they were playing, the plan would have worked. If he pulled it out and made a "Bzuhh?" face Zak could have just launched right into, "What are you doing with that card!?"
The whole plan depended just on his and Olga's testimony anyway. I'm not sure why it even mattered that they planted the card on him, if they were just going to march upstairs and say to everyone "LOOK AT THIS 3 OF HEARTS, CLEARLY HE CHEATED!" without evidence to back it up. Which means there was even less reason for him to smack Olga.
The whole plan depended just on his and Olga's testimony anyway. I'm not sure why it even mattered that they planted the card on him, if they were just going to march upstairs and say to everyone "LOOK AT THIS 3 OF HEARTS, CLEARLY HE CHEATED!" without evidence to back it up. Which means there was even less reason for him to smack Olga.
This whole derail doesn't even matter, because it doesn't change the important part: ZAK GRAMARYE ASSAULTED A WOMAN WHO WAS NOT IN ANY WAY THREATENING HIM. EVEN IF SHE WAS THE WORST ACCOMPLICE EVER AND FAILED AT THE PLOT IN THE WORST POSSIBLE WAY (which she didn't), ZAK GRAMARYE IS STILL A JERK FOR ASSAULTING HER.
please tell me how was zack still a jerk if olga,a self-proclaimed world class proffesional,failed a begginer's fail.
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Phoenix_Justice wrote:
Icarus wrote:
Croik wrote:
I think you're missing a large flaw in the "Olga could have put the card in the bottle" idea. The whole point of hiding the card on him in the first place was to "prove" that he swapped a card out of his hand and replaced it with an Ace he already had on him. Because he found the planted card before the match started he had time to shove it in a bottle, but if Zak tried to tell people, "He was keeping extra cards in his bottles!" who would believe him? How do you sneak cards in and out of a bottle in the middle of a poker match without someone noticing? The hoodie was the best place for the card because Phoenix wears it all the time, there's plenty of room in it for cards, and even if Phoenix had discovered the card while they were playing, the plan would have worked. If he pulled it out and made a "Bzuhh?" face Zak could have just launched right into, "What are you doing with that card!?"
The whole plan depended just on his and Olga's testimony anyway. I'm not sure why it even mattered that they planted the card on him, if they were just going to march upstairs and say to everyone "LOOK AT THIS 3 OF HEARTS, CLEARLY HE CHEATED!" without evidence to back it up. Which means there was even less reason for him to smack Olga.
The whole plan depended just on his and Olga's testimony anyway. I'm not sure why it even mattered that they planted the card on him, if they were just going to march upstairs and say to everyone "LOOK AT THIS 3 OF HEARTS, CLEARLY HE CHEATED!" without evidence to back it up. Which means there was even less reason for him to smack Olga.
This whole derail doesn't even matter, because it doesn't change the important part: ZAK GRAMARYE ASSAULTED A WOMAN WHO WAS NOT IN ANY WAY THREATENING HIM. EVEN IF SHE WAS THE WORST ACCOMPLICE EVER AND FAILED AT THE PLOT IN THE WORST POSSIBLE WAY (which she didn't), ZAK GRAMARYE IS STILL A JERK FOR ASSAULTING HER.
please tell me how was zack still a jerk if olga,a self-proclaimed world class proffesional,failed a begginer's fail.
I go to a New York pizza restaurant that claims to sell the best pizza in the world. I buy an overpriced slice of pepperoni pizza and it tastes awful.
If I just think it sucks, walk out and don't go to that restaurant in the future, I'm a normal person.
If I say, "this tastes like shit!" and storm out putting on a big show, I'm being a whiny bitch, but I'm not a jerk.
If I go back into the kitchen and punch the guy who made the pizza until he falls unconscious, then WHOOPSY-DAISY, I'M BEING A HUGE FUCKING WORLD-CLASS JERK, WHETHER OR NOT I FEEL SORRY ABOUT IT AFTERWARD.
Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Icarus wrote:
I go to a New York pizza restaurant that claims to sell the best pizza in the world. I buy an overpriced slice of pepperoni pizza and it tastes awful.
If I just think it sucks, walk out and don't go to that restaurant in the future, I'm a normal person.
If I say, "this tastes like shit!" and storm out putting on a big show, I'm being a whiny bitch, but I'm not a jerk.
If I go back into the kitchen and punch the guy who made the pizza until he falls unconscious, then WHOOPSY-DAISY, I'M BEING A HUGE FUCKING WORLD-CLASS JERK, WHETHER OR NOT I FEEL SORRY ABOUT IT AFTERWARD.
Let me just say that this is the best thing I have ever heard in my life.
...and there's fifteen feet of pure white snow
Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Croik wrote:
I think you're missing a large flaw in the "Olga could have put the card in the bottle" idea. The whole point of hiding the card on him in the first place was to "prove" that he swapped a card out of his hand and replaced it with an Ace he already had on him. Because he found the planted card before the match started he had time to shove it in a bottle, but if Zak tried to tell people, "He was keeping extra cards in his bottles!" who would believe him? How do you sneak cards in and out of a bottle in the middle of a poker match without someone noticing? The hoodie was the best place for the card because Phoenix wears it all the time, there's plenty of room in it for cards, and even if Phoenix had discovered the card while they were playing, the plan would have worked. If he pulled it out and made a "Bzuhh?" face Zak could have just launched right into, "What are you doing with that card!?"
The whole plan depended just on his and Olga's testimony anyway. I'm not sure why it even mattered that they planted the card on him, if they were just going to march upstairs and say to everyone "LOOK AT THIS 3 OF HEARTS, CLEARLY HE CHEATED!" without evidence to back it up. Which means there was even less reason for him to smack Olga.
The whole plan depended just on his and Olga's testimony anyway. I'm not sure why it even mattered that they planted the card on him, if they were just going to march upstairs and say to everyone "LOOK AT THIS 3 OF HEARTS, CLEARLY HE CHEATED!" without evidence to back it up. Which means there was even less reason for him to smack Olga.
Ignoring Icarus' massive whine about Zak's anger.
Ok I'd figured the bottle idea didn't directly relate to him having the card on his person which is why I suggested the hoodie idea. Still indicates she's incompetent.
And it's not like Icarus's example.
It's more like if you'd heard of legendary pizza in atlantis.
Bought a submarine, hired an expedition team. Set out on an adventure encountering sharks, world dominating villains and terrifying sea ghosts.
After many close friends (as you would form on such an expedition) have been lost on the trip you finally find atlantis only to discover that the legendary pizza parlour is closed early on sundays and you only have enough oxygen in the tank to last the night.
Would you smash into the place demanding your pizza you worked so hard to get OR would you spend your last hours in shame and failure?
Answer seems obvious to me. You're not taking into account how much investment and effort Zak put into that scam and what it meant to him.
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Pierre wrote:
It's more like if you'd heard of legendary pizza in atlantis.
Bought a submarine, hired an expedition team. Set out on an adventure encountering sharks, world dominating villains and terrifying sea ghosts.
After many close friends (as you would form on such an expedition) have been lost on the trip you finally find atlantis only to discover that the legendary pizza parlour is closed early on sundays and you only have enough oxygen in the tank to last the night.
Would you smash into the place demanding your pizza you worked so hard to get OR would you spend your last hours in shame and failure?
Answer seems obvious to me. You're not taking into account how much investment and effort Zak put into that scam and what it meant to him.
Bought a submarine, hired an expedition team. Set out on an adventure encountering sharks, world dominating villains and terrifying sea ghosts.
After many close friends (as you would form on such an expedition) have been lost on the trip you finally find atlantis only to discover that the legendary pizza parlour is closed early on sundays and you only have enough oxygen in the tank to last the night.
Would you smash into the place demanding your pizza you worked so hard to get OR would you spend your last hours in shame and failure?
Answer seems obvious to me. You're not taking into account how much investment and effort Zak put into that scam and what it meant to him.
Yes, the answer is be a fucking adult and don't assault somebody/destroy somebody else's property because you failed to plan ahead properly.
And I'd ask myself if the expedition was a wise investment in the first place, considering I risked and ultimately sacrificed the lives of many of my close friends because I wanted a slice of pizza. A slice of pizza! My friends are dead because I wanted a slice of pizza from an inordinately dangerous and difficult-to-reach place! If only my own hubris had not led me down this destructive path! It's only a slice of pizza, was it worth all this pain?
My goodness, what a self-absorbed asshole I am! This calls for some serious introspection.
Or, if I was some sort of jerk, I could destroy a pizza parlor so I feel like a big, strong man.
Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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And on the expedition you hadn't intended on losing your friends....plus you were also setting out to discover Atlantis, the archaeological and historical merits also act as good motivators for the Pizza trip from hell.
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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...and there's fifteen feet of pure white snow
Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Cravat of Doom wrote:
I think you're getting a little too caught up in the analogies. The point is, you don't hit someone just because you feel like it. Even if she had screwed everything up on purpose, Zak should not have hit her with the bottle. What if he had hit a little too hard? He could have killed her. We've seen proof that those bottles can be deadly.
If she'd screwed him on purpose then I'd say that'd be MORE reason to hit her with the bottle. Call it a moment of weakness but Zak wouldn't be the only human being with a short temper.
In fact she'd be perfectly able to screw Zak and Phoenix over as she could take Zak's pay and then not do her job thus making Zak look foolish and ruin his plan. Zak thinking she had cheated HIM may have actually brought on the red mist that ended up with her getting clonked.
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Pierre wrote:
Call it a moment of weakness but Zak wouldn't be the only human being with a short temper.
How is ANY man with a short temper who hits people not a jerk?
THERE IS A FUCKING REASON THAT ANGER MANAGEMENT CLASSES EXIST: THEY EXIST BECAUSE LOSING YOUR TEMPER AND HITTING PEOPLE IS NOT SOCIALLY ACCEPTABLE, YOU GODDAMN FUCKWITS. PEOPLE WHO DO LOSE THEIR TEMPER AND HIT PEOPLE ARE GENERALLY CONSIDERED TO BE GRADE-A MOTHERFUCKING JERKS BY PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN CIVILIZED FUCKING SOCIETY, ASSHOLE.
LUCKILY FOR ME, I'M TOTALLY COOL RIGHT NOW, I'M NOT EVEN UPSET, IT'S JUST THAT THE CAPS LOCK KEY ON MY KEYBOARD IS BRoken, oh hey it's fixed now, yay! :D
This fuckin' argument, man, this one right here. It's like I'm saying "The chicken crossed the road," and you're saying "No, it didn't. It just used to be on this side, and then it walked on the road, and now it's on the other side."
Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Icarus wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Call it a moment of weakness but Zak wouldn't be the only human being with a short temper.
How is ANY man with a short temper who hits people not a jerk?
THERE IS A FUCKING REASON THAT ANGER MANAGEMENT CLASSES EXIST: THEY EXIST BECAUSE LOSING YOUR TEMPER AND HITTING PEOPLE IS NOT SOCIALLY ACCEPTABLE, YOU GODDAMN FUCKWITS. PEOPLE WHO DO LOSE THEIR TEMPER AND HIT PEOPLE ARE GENERALLY CONSIDERED TO BE GRADE-A MOTHERFUCKING JERKS BY PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN CIVILIZED FUCKING SOCIETY, ASSHOLE.
LUCKILY FOR ME, I'M TOTALLY COOL RIGHT NOW, I'M NOT EVEN UPSET, IT'S JUST THAT THE CAPS LOCK KEY ON MY KEYBOARD IS BRoken, oh hey it's fixed now, yay! :D
This fuckin' argument, man, this one right here. It's like I'm saying "The chicken crossed the road," and you're saying "No, it didn't. It just used to be on this side, and then it walked on the road, and now it's on the other side."
I wouldn't classify every angry person who hits people a jerk. By that reasoning numerous boxers/wrestlers/martial artists any of them who get slightly angry at their opponent are jerks.It doesn't slide that way with me, I'd put it down to a moment of weakness on Zak's behalf.
Also that chicken argument still seems fully valid to me.
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