Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Pierre wrote:
I wouldn't classify every angry person who hits people a jerk. By that reasoning numerous boxers/wrestlers/martial artists any of them who get slightly angry at their opponent are jerks.They get paid for that, y'know. And their opponents know full well that they could get hurt.
As for the 'moment of weakness' thing, I don't know... He made that decision to pick up the bottle and swing it. He was a grown man, he knew the consequences. Yet he decided to do it anyway, because he didn't consider how Orly would feel. He didn't seem to regret it when he hit her because, according to Phoenix, he was 'uncontrollable' when he went to call the cops.
And I highly doubt he was uncontrollable with remorse.
...and there's fifteen feet of pure white snow
Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Pierre wrote:
I wouldn't classify every angry person who hits people a jerk. By that reasoning numerous boxers/wrestlers/martial artists any of them who get slightly angry at their opponent are jerks.Alright, my bad, I'll redefine that to "LOSING YOUR TEMPER AND HITTING PEOPLE (WHO HAVE NOT AGREED TO FIGHT WITH YOU FOR SPORTING PURPOSES AND WHO ARE NOT THREATENING EITHER YOUR HEALTH AND WELL-BEING OR THE HEALTH AND WELL-BEING OF THOSE AROUND YOU) IS NOT SOCIALLY ACCEPTABLE, YOU GODDAMN FUCKWITS."
Pierre wrote:
It doesn't slide that way with me, I'd put it down to a moment of weakness on Zak's behalf.
"C'mon back, you know I didn't mean to hit you, baby doll, the police don't need to know about this."
If a man has one moment of weakness, he will have more. If a man intentionally harms a person who had no intention of causing him harm during a so-called "moment of weakness," that is always a cause for concern regarding the man's character. Especially if the man is Zak Gramarye, grade-A jerk and all-around douchebag.
Pierre wrote:
Also that chicken argument still seems fully valid to me.
With all due respect, that's because you're not very good at logic.
Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Alright, my bad, I'll redefine that to "LOSING YOUR TEMPER AND HITTING PEOPLE (WHO HAVE NOT AGREED TO FIGHT WITH YOU FOR SPORTING PURPOSES AND WHO ARE NOT THREATENING EITHER YOUR HEALTH AND WELL-BEING OR THE HEALTH AND WELL-BEING OF THOSE AROUND YOU) IS NOT SOCIALLY ACCEPTABLE, YOU GODDAMN FUCKWITS."
Well now that's all down to a matter of opinion and preference. Needless to say my definition of a jerk doesn't fit your ideals.
Quote:
"C'mon back, you know I didn't mean to hit you, baby doll, the police don't need to know about this."
If a man has one moment of weakness, he will have more. If a man intentionally harms a person who had no intention of causing him harm during a so-called "moment of weakness," that is always a cause for concern regarding the man's character. Especially if the man is Zak Gramarye, grade-A jerk and all-around douchebag.
If a man has one moment of weakness, he will have more. If a man intentionally harms a person who had no intention of causing him harm during a so-called "moment of weakness," that is always a cause for concern regarding the man's character. Especially if the man is Zak Gramarye, grade-A jerk and all-around douchebag.
The 'Slippery Slope' argument is not valid. Human behaviour is unpredictable and erratic you can't simply assume A+B=C with a generalisation like that.
Your conclusion is again opinion based.
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With all due respect, that's because you're not very good at logic.
That's not very respectful at all.
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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pierre said it himself(although he later forgot about it.........i think),the moment of weakness and short temper wasn't the only thing that made zak hit olga,it was also becouse he thought she tricked him,screwed him over or whichever way you'd like to put it,wether olga failed on purpose or not doesn't change the fact that zak thought she cheated him.
that said,the reason's zak hit olga was becouse he lost his temper,he was in a moment of weakness and he thought she tricked him,and he fully knew about the consecounces of the hit,since,afterall,he only hit her hard enough to make her lose conciusness,unlike our gentelman killer over there ----------->
Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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But the point still stands: "I only hit her because I was angry!" is 100% Abusive Husband logic. I know you guys are defending him on the basis of him being a purely fictional character, but to me and I'm sure a lot of people reading this topic, trying to explain away the bottle-to-Olga action borders on offensive.
Everyone gets angry. Only jerks hit people with bottles when they are angry. It's illegal for a reason!
Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Croik wrote:
Everyone gets angry. Only jerks hit people with bottles when they are angry. It's illegal for a reason!
Yeah, a considerate person will make sure to hit someone legally.
We should get some socker boppers to keep it from happening ever again!
Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Can't Zak make one mistake? He vented his anger on a woman who for all he knew could have cheated him.
He has no proof their transaction took place. Her conscience could have failed her, she didn't place the card where it was supposed to be and Zak realised he was conned.
It was a misunderstanding, if Zak had realised how wily Phoenix had managed to find a card planted in his pocket then maybe it wouldn't have looked like she had conned him so and maybe would not have placed all the blame on her.
In a rather stretched comparison....
I'm assuming you've seen Pixar's UP?
Recall the wondrous life of Karl up until his wife's death. In a fit of anger he whacked a construction worker on the head. Does that make him a bad person for all eternity? No, granted some of his behaviour was a little mean after that but he had been bereaved and placed in extremely stressful situations so I'd let it slide.
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Pierre wrote:
And it was his front pockets he found the card in cause he always puts his hands in them. Either way you're only confirming Olga's incompetence and if she was passing herself of as a high-level crime casino dealer then she may have charged Zak high rates for clearly substandard services making his fit of rage possibly justified.
Though this only serves to indicate the Olga is an EVIL DEVIL WOMAN WHO DESERVES TO BE HIT WITH A BOTTLE.
Though this only serves to indicate the Olga is an EVIL DEVIL WOMAN WHO DESERVES TO BE HIT WITH A BOTTLE.
Zak flies into a fit of rage and knocks a defenseless woman unconscious because she didn't properly follow through with his plan to unfairly strip a man of his livelihood: Whoa, ease up people everybody makes mistakes, he probably has a spotless shining soul underneath his jerky, woman-beating exterior.
And the whole point of Karl's behaviour in the beginning of UP is that he was a crotchety old man and yes, kind of a jerk. He got better, and he was not a jerk by the end of the movie, but he was a jerk to everybody around him for the first half of the movie. Karl was a JERK. Much like Zak Gramarye is a JERK.
Also, I feel it bears repeating that, "losing your temper and hitting people (who have not agreed to fight with you for sporting purposes and who are not threatening either your health and well-being or the health and well-being of those around you) is not socially acceptable," you misguided young men who nonetheless have valuable contributions to the debate.
Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Quote:
And the whole point of Karl's behaviour in the beginning of UP is that he was a crotchety old man and yes, kind of a jerk. He got better, and he was not a jerk by the end of the movie, but he was a jerk to everybody around him for the first half of the movie. Karl was a JERK. Much like Zak Gramarye is a JERK.
Karl's behaviour at the beginning of UP was not jerkish. It was only the mailbox incident that really made him snap his entire life up until that moment was happy and wonderful.
And...once again I'll mention that the 'mistake' to Zak may have seemed like Olga was trying to cheat him, a much worse offence than a simple mistake. Just because he hit Olga once doesn't mean he beats women regularly. I find it hard to see why you can't just accept the possibility this was an isolated incident and a mistake.
What does have me curious is how the events would turn out if Phoenix had brought Trucy along to help him during the match.
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Pierre wrote:
Quote:
And the whole point of Karl's behaviour in the beginning of UP is that he was a crotchety old man and yes, kind of a jerk. He got better, and he was not a jerk by the end of the movie, but he was a jerk to everybody around him for the first half of the movie. Karl was a JERK. Much like Zak Gramarye is a JERK.
Karl's behaviour at the beginning of UP was not jerkish. It was only the mailbox incident that really made him snap his entire life up until that moment was happy and wonderful.
No, actually, Karl was a cantankerous, unfriendly jerk after Ellie died. Hitting the construction worker was the worst manifestation of this, but sending the kid on a snipe hunt was also a jerky thing to do, as well as leaving him locked outside of the flying house, even for a little bit.
Up is a movie about an old man who used to be a great guy, but has become a horrible grump until he learns to live and appreciate life again. It's not a movie about a sweet old man who acts like he's not sweet for the beginning of the movie and then reveals that he's been sweet all along. Karl's character development doesn't make any sense if you think he doesn't become an unlikable jerk after Ellie's death, no matter how understandable his despair was.
Quote:
And...once again I'll mention that the 'mistake' to Zak may have seemed like Olga was trying to cheat him, a much worse offence than a simple mistake. Just because he hit Olga once doesn't mean he beats women regularly. I find it hard to see why you can't just accept the possibility this was an isolated incident and a mistake.
Because he also admits to hitting Spark Brushel several times. If a man hits somebody who he feels has wronged him in a moment of rage, and also frequently hits a friend when he doesn't get his way, he's very likely to have hit people many more times that we don't know about.
I find it hard to see why you think a man shown to have such a cantankerous, petty disposition is somehow NOT petty and easily upset when he's offscreen.
And I think it bears repeating that Zak wanted Olga's help for a pretty jerky reason in the first place. Ruining a guy's career because you're jealous he's better than you is not really something that non-jerks do.
Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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No, actually, Karl was a cantankerous, unfriendly jerk after Ellie died. Hitting the construction worker was the worst manifestation of this, but sending the kid on a snipe hunt was also a jerky thing to do, as well as leaving him locked outside of the flying house, even for a little bit.
I'm talking about the grand scheme of things. The events of UP can't take place in over a month maybe 2 at the most. Compared to the rest of his life does one small down period make him a jerk?
It's not fair to judge Zak as a jerk for one small action in a grand scheme of his life is what I mean.
Quote:
Because he also admits to hitting Spark Brushel several times. If a man hits somebody who he feels has wronged him in a moment of rage, and also frequently hits a friend when he doesn't get his way, he's very likely to have hit people many more times that we don't know about.
I find it hard to see why you think a man shown to have such a cantankerous, petty disposition is somehow NOT petty and easily upset when he's offscreen.
I find it hard to see why you think a man shown to have such a cantankerous, petty disposition is somehow NOT petty and easily upset when he's offscreen.
I'd never thought of Brushel as a friend to him more a reporter who harasses him which may justify hitting him but maybe I'm misunderstanding.
Regardless a few hits between friends is nothing I can recall many incidents walking down the street punching my friend in the arm and receiving blows in return as part of a game. We don't know the magnitude or context of the hits so I wouldn't say it automatically indicates Zak can't go a day without finding someone to whack.
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And I think it bears repeating that Zak wanted Olga's help for a pretty jerky reason in the first place. Ruining a guy's career because you're jealous he's better than you is not really something that non-jerks do.
We've already covered this, in Zak's eyes everybody wins. Zak gains fame and fortune at beating an unbeatable poker legend, Phoenix and Trucy gain fame and fortune from her magic skills and Phoenix becomes a made man who can lie on a beach drinking grape juice while his daughter enjoys her job and earns riches.
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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In a game where a character is only given limited portrayal, their few key scenes are integral to defining their characterisation.
So we only get limited portrayal of Zak. And every one of his acts described or shown on screen is an unsavoury type of behaviour. Zak has NO redeeming qualities shown by the writers. His sole 'positive' action is a fake confession to clear Valant's name, *7* years after when Zak has nothing to lose from it and Valant has *already lost everything*. They even turn all Valant's hair grey to emphasis how traumatic the 7 years have been for him. With the 7 years Zak is already considered 'dead' the case considered CLOSED, and the magic rights passed to Trucy so Valant can get NOTHING.
No, passing on the magic rights to Trucy isn't a positive action, it's a selfish one also, he's going to be 'dead' so he wants HIS kid to get them so Valant can't. It's not about Trucy herself at all. Like the Gramarye name hasn't already been tarnished by the 7 years and the now-'admitted' murders anyway, it's not like it's an insta-ticket to riches like some people so inaccurately imply.
In this series, minor characters perform to stereotypes more than real people, and 'man who loses his temper over his own evil plot failing and hits a defenseless woman with a bottle capable of killing her' fits every 'jerk' stereotype. Especially since the writers 'reward' him with deserved bad karma by being killed in the same manner straight after, I think they are implying something here? And the fact that the JP name for Gramarye means 'unworthy' and people like Trucy and Apollo conveniently get alt. surnames from the writers to escape its unfortunate legacy.
You don't want to call him a 'jerk'? Given the agreeing to the 'chicken crossing a road' metaphor, maybe you'd agree with 'individual of unsavoury character'
Oh OOOPS I 'lost my temper' on a one-off incident and decided to ruin Phoenix's life and reputation AGAIN with 'no' forethought and complex planning. Oh OOPS, I had a small character blip and ABANDONED my daughter. Oh, OOPS, I knew all about the forged diary page incident and I had the real page on me all the time, but I had a small character error and 'disappeared'. Oh OOPS, I lied and told my daughter I'd come back one day and see her, but even when it's offered I refuse because I don't care about her at all!
And Zak dies, and everybody who is actually killed in the series' present action [save Mia, who 'lives on'] are questionable/flawed at best, because otherwise we'd get too upset. Even Misty was a bit off, abandoning Maya and Mia and agreeing to that idiotic plot, and her death was basically necessary to have closure on the 1-3 plot with Maya succeeding as Master. You can't argue the same 'necessary closure' parallel here, because Zak gets killed for *the first case*.
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Last edited by icer on Tue May 11, 2010 6:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Quote:
So we only get limited portrayal of Zak. And every one of his acts described or shown on screen is an unsavoury type of behaviour. Zak has NO redeeming qualities shown by the writers. His sole 'positive' action is a fake confession to clear Valant's name, *7* years after when Zak has nothing to lose from it and Valant has *already lost everything*. They even turn all Valant's hair grey to emphasis how traumatic the 7 years have been for him. With the 7 years Zak is already considered 'dead' the case considered CLOSED, and the magic rights passed to Trucy so Valant can get NOTHING.
Ok so if it hadn't been for Zak, Valant would be found guilty and put to death?
I think the alternative is good yeah....and putting your daughter before a close friend isn't such a bad thing is it?
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No, passing on the magic rights to Trucy isn't a positive action, it's a selfish one also, he's going to be 'dead' so he wants HIS kid to get them so Valant can't. It's not about Trucy herself at all. Like the Gramarye name hasn't already been tarnished by the 7 years and the now-'admitted' murders anyway, it's not like it's an insta-ticket to riches like some people so inaccurately imply.
For all we know that's just because the fabled Gramarye tricks have been fallen into history, the troupe fell apart. Valant was not allowed to use the Gramayre tricks so it's only understandable that magic could fall out of popularity. Besides why would Zak want to give the magic to Valant over his daughter? Valant tried to frame him for murder at a point when he had nothing to gain essentially causing Zak to get taken to court and leave. Valant is the real jerk here and yet Zak still has the grace to make a confession in an attempt to clear his name.
I don't see how choosing your own beloved daughter who ACTUALLY HAS GRAMAYRE BLOOD over some dubious friend who isn't a direct descendant of the Gramarye bloodline is a selfish action. You can't prove he did it to spite Valant though if he did I wouldn't blame him.
Quote:
Oh OOOPS I 'lost my temper' on a one-off incident and decided to ruin Phoenix's life and reputation AGAIN with 'no' forethought and complex planning. Oh OOPS, I had a small character blip and ABANDONED my daughter. Oh, OOPS, I knew all about the forged diary page incident and I had the real page on me all the time, but I had a small character error and 'disappeared'. Oh OOPS, I lied and told my daughter I'd come back one day and see her, but even when it's offered I refuse because I don't care about her at all!
Firstly Zak didn't ruin Phoenix's life that was Kristoph's fault. He hired a professional dealer and con-artist who probably cost a fair deal of money to help him with the plan so it was well planned apart from Olga's incompetence. He had no choice to abandon his daughter it's not like he chose it, the alternative was death. "I don't care about her at all!" is quite hard to believe when he was GIVING HER THE RIGHTS TO PERFORM FAMOUS MAGIC ACTS in the same conversation besides you yourself mentioned the "Gramayre"="Unworthy" thing, isn't it possible he doesn't feel like he deserves to see his daughter? That he is burdened by the shame of leaving his daughter behind.
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And Zak dies, and everybody who is actually killed in the series' present action [save Mia, who 'lives on'] are questionable/flawed at best, because otherwise we'd get too upset. Even Misty was a bit off, abandoning Maya and Mia and agreeing to that idiotic plot, and her death was basically necessary to have closure on the 1-3 plot with Maya succeeding as Master. You can't argue the same 'necessary closure' parallel here, because Zak gets killed for *the first case*.
Erm? Lack of closure? Zak's death is brought back into the light for the LAST CASE. Closure exists.
I don't see why people can judge him so harshly.
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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I'll have to disagree with almost everything you said becouse you see.
zak didn't give wright the rights couse he didn't want wright to win,becouse if wright won the case and afterwards zak escaped,that would make his plan of clearing valant's name more obvious,and he left his doughter intending to return,but after realizing that his actions kinda costed wright's job(not in his plan at all,he had no idea about the forged evidence),and made trucy's life more difficult,even if trucy's life wasn't,he still thought he unnintentionally made trucy's life more difficult by costing wright his badge(although that's kristof's fault),and wasn't able to face her due to regrets.
as for giving the rights to trucy being a bad thing,let me ask a question,does valant deserve the rights,after he fabricated the crime scene to put the blame on zak,i am sure the answer is no,zak must have been deeply hurt by the fact that his partner sold him out at the same time zak was (kinda) sacrificing his reputation for him,i mean zak did a favor to valant and you want him to give him another favor after valant threw zak in the trash can like most selfish guys do,infact zak did,by a false confession that would 100%(maybe) ruin the name zak by murder(way worse than wright being named cheater) and would 100%(maybe) save valant's repuation even while zak still thought valant was the murderer,so please don't tell me you want zak to do valant a third favor,although zak shouldn't have done even the first favor.
also,zak didn't see trucy for a very long time,and was partially to blame for wright losing his job(unnintantional) and making living with wright more difficult,so the best he could do is give the rights to trucy and make her life easier,trucy is a prodogy,or in her words,a professional,she might have shown us only 2 tricks,but she must have been able to do much more inorder to add enough to wrights poker game attraction for their living,but now,although he planned to ruin wrights reputation,it wasn't and for the millionth time it wasn't becouse he was jealus,infact he hired wright after wright beat him at poker 7 years ago,but rather it was becouse wright won most games through trucy's help,which would be called cheating,so naming wright a cheater,after giving trucy(or wright so wright would give to trucy) rights would be more than justified,wrights name as a poker player will be ruined,but he actually deserves that poker wise,and won't need it anymore since trucy can earn them lot's and lot's of money on daily basis by the use of the rights,i mean imagine the number of attendants and how much the tickets would earn them,not to mention tv.
as for hitting olga with the bottle,i'll say it again,it was becouse he thought she cheated him,he was extremly angry and was in a moment of weakness,three great reasons,also about punching brushel,I and my friends at school punch and hit each other numerous times for fun.
as for hitting olga with the bottle,he only hit her hard enough to make her fall unconcious unlike our evil little killer here
,despite thinking she cheated him,being angry and in a moment of weakness,he was able to control himself enough to not couse her any series damage,to me,she look's completly fine in which that hit only coused temporary pain(like most hits), and loss of consciousness(which wasn't really that bad of a thing),also feenie hit the victem a hard enough hit to make him fall unconsious,sure it looked like a shoove,but it made the guy that pissed him off fall unconsious,also,at the end of case 4-1 apollo punched phoenix a clearly hard punch,sure it didn't even make wright fall unconsies,but it was also out of anger and thinking wright intended bad intentions by giving him forged evidence at apollo's first case.what matters most isn't the method of hitting,be it fist or bottle,or the gender of the attacked person,be it man or woman,what matters most is the amount of damage that was dealt,i am sure all the bottle hit did was temporary damage and lose of consiousness,where as after olga wakes up and the temporary pain is gone,it would be as if she was never hit,excluding her nervous habit.
ergo,zak isn't a jerk,his actions give the impretion that he is a jerk to the avrage eye,but by closer inspection,we can see that his goals were out of good intentions
Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Pierre wrote:
I don't see how choosing your own beloved daughter who ACTUALLY HAS GRAMAYRE BLOOD over some dubious friend who isn't a direct descendant of the Gramarye bloodline is a selfish action. You can't prove he did it to spite Valant though if he did I wouldn't blame him.
If it had been Zak's intention that Trucy end up with the rights over Valant (since those were the only possibilities) why didn't he give them to her sooner? She needed to have them before he was pronounced legally dead, or else she would have missed out. So why did he wait until the very last moment to spring up and hand them over? You and Phoenix_Justice have been arguing that with the Gramarye Tricks, Trucy is going to be able to live the high life and provide for herself and her father, no problem. So why didn't Zak let her do that to begin with?
Even if you argue that she just wasn't old enough to do those tricks...why not at least have the security of having them? She wouldn't even have to tell anyone she had them. There was no reason to wait so long if his motives were selfless.
Pierre wrote:
I don't see why people can judge him so harshly.
Then allow me to repeat it!
"I only hit her because I was angry!" is 100% Abusive Husband Logic. Trying to explain away the bottle-to-Olga action borders on offensive. If Kristoph hadn't come in and bashed Zak back, Zak probably would have been arrested for attempted murder. It never would have happened if he were a "nice" guy who had the occasional weak moment.
This is also why some people theorize that Thalassa may have been abused in the Troupe, which is why she left them in the first place, and upon returning chose not to bring her son with her. It's not hard to look at the bare facts presented in the game and connect the dots into a pretty scary look at Troupe Gramarye.
Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Croik wrote:
Pierre wrote:
I don't see how choosing your own beloved daughter who ACTUALLY HAS GRAMAYRE BLOOD over some dubious friend who isn't a direct descendant of the Gramarye bloodline is a selfish action. You can't prove he did it to spite Valant though if he did I wouldn't blame him.
If it had been Zak's intention that Trucy end up with the rights over Valant (since those were the only possibilities) why didn't he give them to her sooner? She needed to have them before he was pronounced legally dead, or else she would have missed out. So why did he wait until the very last moment to spring up and hand them over? You and Phoenix_Justice have been arguing that with the Gramarye Tricks, Trucy is going to be able to live the high life and provide for herself and her father, no problem. So why didn't Zak let her do that to begin with?
Even if you argue that she just wasn't old enough to do those tricks...why not at least have the security of having them? She wouldn't even have to tell anyone she had them. There was no reason to wait so long if his motives were selfless.
Pierre wrote:
I don't see why people can judge him so harshly.
Then allow me to repeat it!
"I only hit her because I was angry!" is 100% Abusive Husband Logic. Trying to explain away the bottle-to-Olga action borders on offensive. If Kristoph hadn't come in and bashed Zak back, Zak probably would have been arrested for attempted murder. It never would have happened if he were a "nice" guy who had the occasional weak moment.
This is also why some people theorize that Thalassa may have been abused in the Troupe, which is why she left them in the first place, and upon returning chose not to bring her son with her. It's not hard to look at the bare facts presented in the game and connect the dots into a pretty scary look at Troupe Gramarye.
for why zak didn't give trucy the rights,he didn't want her to have a burden in a young age(and had more trust that the letter would be safer with him) and thought that wright as a lawyer would be able to earn enough money for both of them,in which he saw no problem with the plan so far,but wright lost his badge and trucy was in good supervision or i dunno,police were keeping tabs,and they were in the lookout for zak so it was almost impossible for zak and trucy to meet,also he thought he'd get valants hopes up,considering how valant sold zak out like a cheap peace of paper.
as for the hitting olga thing,please read my post above as i am sure it mentions why zak hit olga and why it wasn't jerkish.
Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Anyway as for why he didn't give her the rights straight away he wanted to be sure she had the talent to perform such magic and also let her mature a bit. A young lady adopting all the fame with no one to help her would just break the little girl. Besides if she started performing incredible disappearing acts right off the bat then she may be dragged back into the investigation of how Zak escaped from the courtroom.
And Olga is not some poor defenceless housewife, she's a cold-hearted con-artist. Being a member of the criminal underworld I'm surprised she didn't pull a knife from her Russian garb and stab Zak when he attacked.
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Phoenix_Justice wrote:
as for hitting olga with the bottle,i'll say it again,it was becouse he thought she cheated him,he was extremly angry and was in a moment of weakness,three great reasons,
1. Just "being angry" is not a good reason to hit someone, EVER.
2. Committing a crime, such as assault, in a "moment of weakness" is still COMMITTING A CRIME.
3. Hitting someone because you THINK they cheated on you is no better than me hitting a waiter because I THINK my steak is improperly cooked.
Those are all pretty terrible reasons to punch someone. If you think those are not only "acceptable" reasons, but actually "great" reasons to punch someone, TA-DA, YOU'RE A JERK.
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also about punching brushel,I and my friends at school punch and hit each other numerous times for fun.
I sometimes punch my friends with like a tap on the shoulder, but it's implied that Zak really punches Brushel for real, he even directly threatens to punch Brushel to get him to leave, and it works. Would Brushel really be intimidated by a friendly tap on the shoulder?
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as for hitting olga with the bottle,he only hit her hard enough to make her fall unconcious unlike our evil little killer here ,despite thinking she cheated him,being angry and in a moment of weakness,he was able to control himself enough to not couse her any series damage
,despite thinking she cheated him,being angry and in a moment of weakness,he was able to control himself enough to not couse her any series damageOK, so you're arguing that "he was so mad that he COMPLETELY lost control so it's not his fault" and "he was able to control himself to not kill Olga." Do you really not see how these contradict each other? It's impossible to be in enough control to control your actions, while simultaneously not being in enough control to be responsible for your actions. Either he consciously decided to hit Olga in order to cause her pain, or he was blind with rage and instantly tried to hit Olga.
If you're in control of your own actions, and your thoughts go along the lines of, "I want to cause pain to this person," TA-DA YOU'RE A JERK.
If you regularly lose control of your own actions the instant things don't go your way and you subsequently hurt people, TA-DA, YOU MIGHT NOT BE AS MUCH OF A JERK AS THE OTHER GUY, BUT YOU'RE STILL A JERK.
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she look's completly fine in which that hit only coused temporary pain(like most hits), and loss of consciousness (which wasn't really that bad of a thing)
So attacking people until they lose consciousness is "no big thing?" I've been hit so hard that I've fallen unconscious only once, when my sister accidentally pushed me off the top of a bunk bed and cracked the side of my head open. It was a complete accident and I was still angry at my sister for WEEKS because of it. Have you ever lost consciousness because you've been attacked? If not, you have no authority on the subject. You've got to hit someone pretty damn hard to make them lose consciousness, and hitting people that hard means, say it with me, TA-DA, YOU'RE A JERK.
Also, purposefully causing temporary pain (serious pain, not just playful taps) ISN'T a jerk thing to do? Most schoolyard bullies cause less pain than Zak did, and bullies are pretty much universally jerks. I am baffled by your logic.
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also feenie hit the victem a hard enough hit to make him fall unconsious,sure it looked like a shoove,but it made the guy that pissed him off fall unconsious,also,at the end of case 4-1 apollo punched phoenix a clearly hard punch,sure it didn't even make wright fall unconsies,but it was also out of anger and thinking wright intended bad intentions by giving him forged evidence at apollo's first case.
1. Feenie actually was a jerk to that guy. Doug was just trying to warn him about a woman who was trying to poison him and Phoenix reacted in a very jerky way. P.S. he didn't even fall unconscious, you're remembering incorrectly. He got up and talked to Dahlia and then Dahlia murdered him, remember?
2. Apollo didn't just think Phoenix betrayed him, he knew it. Phoenix admitted as much himself. Hell, Phoenix lost his badge that way and was prepared to risk the same thing happening to Apollo. He's just lucky Kristoph decided not to try to drag Apollo down with him. Still, Apollo didn't handle it in the best way.
Apollo and Phoenix both acted like Jerks. Zak reacted even more violently and caused more harm than the both of them combined. It's in the thread title and it bears repeating: Zak Gramarye is a JERK.
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ergo,zak isn't a jerk,his actions give the impretion that he is a jerk to the avrage eye,but by closer inspection,we can see that his goals were out of good intentions
Here, let me fix that: He is a jerk to the average eye, but if we just make shit up and interpret things in the game in the least likely way possible, we can pretend that he regularly hits defenseless people out of good intentions.
Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Fine, you win. Zak is a lovely jolly avuncular man, just like Gant! He loves Trucy sooo much and is soooo grateful to Phoenix. The evidence oozes from his every pore, pixel and action. Why didn't I take the bait on the anti P/I argument instead? </sarcasm>.
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Zak gains fame and fortune at beating an unbeatable poker legend
WRONG. Zak was Shadi Smith, reputation: zero.
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You can look at it and say it points to Thalassa being abused in Troupe Gramayre but that's all just conjecture, besides if that were true there's no way Papa Gramayre would have allowed his disciples to get away with it.
Oh yeah, he 'stopped' her being 'accidentally shot' now, didn't he? Prevented her going blind?
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Anyway as for why he didn't give her the rights straight away he wanted to be sure she had the talent to perform such magic and also let her mature a bit.
So she could starve to death on the street in the meantime? Or live out her days in an orphanage which wouldn't subsidise her magic hobby? Because, I repeat, Zak had no idea Phoenix would be kind enough to adopt Trucy, particularly as she was the pawn which ruined his career by proxy.
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thought that wright as a lawyer would be able to earn enough money for both of them
Surprise! Phoenix isn't a lawyer! Zak saw the forged evidence fiasco occurring before he even left! And it was all through the papers!
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since trucy can earn them lot's and lot's of money on daily basis by the use of the rights,i mean imagine the number of attendants and how much the tickets would earn them,not to mention tv.
Did you even read my post?
Icer wrote:
No, passing on the magic rights to Trucy isn't a positive action, it's a selfish one also, he's going to be 'dead' so he wants HIS kid to get them so Valant can't. It's not about Trucy herself at all. Like the Gramarye name hasn't already been tarnished by the 7 years and the now-'admitted' murders anyway, it's not like it's an insta-ticket to riches like some people so inaccurately imply.
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and for the millionth time it wasn't becouse he was jealus,infact he hired wright after wright beat him at poker 7 years ago,but rather it was becouse wright won most games through trucy's help,which would be called cheating,so naming wright a cheater,after giving trucy(or wright so wright would give to trucy) rights would be more than justified,wrights name as a poker player will be ruined,but he actually deserves that
Um, Zak 'cheated' by 'disappearing' at his murder trial, which is far more unethical than anything Phoenix did at poker. It's not like Phoenix got much out of his 'job' anyway, except a basal wage to support, wait for it, TRUCY. Oh and magicians CHEAT on their every magic trick, that's what they are, PROFESSIONAL FAKES. Zak clearly doesn't care about that type of ethics, his every appearance in the game shows a drastically opposing values/worldview.. He just wants revenge, supposedly because Phoenix once managed to beat him.
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also about punching brushel,I and my friends at school punch and hit each other numerous times for fun.
I'm sure Olga and Brushel had *lots of fun*
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he only hit her hard enough to make her fall unconcious unlike our evil little killer here
What a miraculous stroke of luck!
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he was able to control himself enough to not couse her any series damage,
All being hit into unconsciousness causes some level of permanent damage....
Being hit unconscious is serious AND 'series'. End of story.
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what matters most isn't the method of hitting,be it fist or bottle,or the gender of the attacked person,be it man or woman,what matters most is the amount of damage that was dealt,i am sure all the bottle hit did was temporary damage and lose of consiousness,where as after olga wakes up and the temporary pain is gone,it would be as if she was never hit,excluding her nervous habit.
Really? Well, if you did that to me, I would be suing you for assault...
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we can see that his goals were out of good intentions
Oh yes, all mass murderers think this, from their personal warped worldviews....
'Good intentions' to advance the totally selfish and arrogant Zak Gramarye cause.
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also feenie hit the victem a hard enough hit to make him fall unconsious,
I thought it was the unfortunate electric wire which did this.
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so the best he could do is give the rights to trucy and make her life easier
Or he could have, you know, 7 years ago. Or send MONEY. Or do ANYTHING to support her.
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isn't it possible he doesn't feel like he deserves to see his daughter? That he is burdened by the shame of leaving his daughter behind.
No. Zak is portrayed as a hyper arrogant jerk. :P Any vestige of regret over being a bad father has clearly been unrecognisably warped and then projected into demonising Phoenix, sort of like Godot.
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Erm? Lack of closure? Zak's death is brought back into the light for the LAST CASE. Closure exists.
I think you missed the point.
And the fact that hid identity isn't comfirmed till the END case, and that initially he is portrayed as an unattached mystery JERK, just confirms this deliberate portrayal. If we knew he was Trucy's father, it would negatively impact our view of Trucy by association before we formed attachment to her! That's how much Zak is known to the writers to be a JERK.
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He had no choice to abandon his daughter
Yeah right.
Did he leave her money? Did he leave her with people to care for her? Zak had no idea Phoenix would adopt Trucy. It's the kind of plot point of convinience which still leaves us incredulous.
If he'd cared at ALL, he would have at least left her money, resources and proper arrangements 7 YEARS AGO.
And the alternative was not 'death'. Zak was not guilty of murder, so it was possible the courts may find him innocent, with a different lawyer. He wasn't found guilty.
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He hired a professional dealer and con-artist who probably cost a fair deal of money to help him with the plan so it was well planned
Confirming that Zak is the type of nasty individual who spends great time and effort on an evil reputation-destroying plan to 'thank' that guy who looked after HIS DAUGHTER, rather than it just being an isolated jerkish/loss of temper moment.
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as for the hitting olga thing,please read my post above as i am sure it mentions why zak hit olga and why it wasn't jerkish.
Every murderer and abuser thinks they are 'justified' in their warped, twisted personal world view.
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Quote:
WRONG. Zak was Shadi Smith, reputation: zero.
Fine if you want to get technical
Fame and fortune for Shadi smith.Quote:
Oh yeah, he 'stopped' her being 'accidentally shot' now, didn't he? Prevented her going blind?
I fail to see how these are reasonable requests of Magnifi since one was an accident and unpredictable and unpreventable and the other....well he's a magician not Jesus.
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So she could starve to death on the street in the meantime? Or live out her days in an orphanage which wouldn't subsidise her magic hobby? Because, I repeat, Zak had no idea Phoenix would be kind enough to adopt Trucy, particularly as she was the pawn which ruined his career by proxy.
Trucy survived 2 weeks before going to Phoenix who adopted her. Since it's unlikely she could survive on the streets that long and I doubt the Police would have her in for questioning that long. It's probably that Zak had already arranged some place for her to stay. Maybe with an Uncle or Brushel as has already been suggested.
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Surprise! Phoenix isn't a lawyer! Zak saw the forged evidence fiasco occurring before he even left! And it was all through the papers
Maybe but at that point in time it may have been too late to turn back on his plans.
Icer wrote:
No, passing on the magic rights to Trucy isn't a positive action, it's a selfish one also, he's going to be 'dead' so he wants HIS kid to get them so Valant can't. It's not about Trucy herself at all. Like the Gramarye name hasn't already been tarnished by the 7 years and the now-'admitted' murders anyway, it's not like it's an insta-ticket to riches like some people so inaccurately imply
Erm Icer I quite clearly replied to that explaining why.
Pierre wrote:
For all we know that's just because the fabled Gramarye tricks have been fallen into history, the troupe fell apart. Valant was not allowed to use the Gramayre tricks so it's only understandable that magic could fall out of popularity. Besides why would Zak want to give the magic to Valant over his daughter? Valant tried to frame him for murder at a point when he had nothing to gain essentially causing Zak to get taken to court and leave. Valant is the real jerk here and yet Zak still has the grace to make a confession in an attempt to clear his name.
I don't see how choosing your own beloved daughter who ACTUALLY HAS GRAMAYRE BLOOD over some dubious friend who isn't a direct descendant of the Gramarye bloodline is a selfish action. You can't prove he did it to spite Valant though if he did I wouldn't blame him.
I don't see how choosing your own beloved daughter who ACTUALLY HAS GRAMAYRE BLOOD over some dubious friend who isn't a direct descendant of the Gramarye bloodline is a selfish action. You can't prove he did it to spite Valant though if he did I wouldn't blame him.
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No. Zak is portrayed as a hyper arrogant jerk. :P Any vestige of regret over being a bad father has clearly been unrecognisably warped and then projected into demonising Phoenix, sort of like Godot.
Regarding his time estranged from his family.
Zak Gramayre wrote:
In exactly three days from
now, it will be seven.
now, it will be seven.
Zak wrote:
I caused you much...
inconvenience, I fear.
Regretinconvenience, I fear.
Zak wrote:
Is... she well?
Trucy, I mean
Caring/Concerning.Trucy, I mean
No "vestige of regret"? ORLY?
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I think you missed the point.
And the fact that hid identity isn't comfirmed till the END case, and that initially he is portrayed as an unattached mystery JERK, just confirms this deliberate portrayal. If we knew he was Trucy's father, it would negatively impact our view of Trucy by association before we formed attachment to her! That's how much Zak is known to the writers to be a JERK.
And the fact that hid identity isn't comfirmed till the END case, and that initially he is portrayed as an unattached mystery JERK, just confirms this deliberate portrayal. If we knew he was Trucy's father, it would negatively impact our view of Trucy by association before we formed attachment to her! That's how much Zak is known to the writers to be a JERK.
I think his introduction was to portray him as more mysterious than a mystery JERK.
Also since Trucy was only really introduced at the end of case 1 it's impossible for us to know he was really Trucy's father in case 1 as we don't even know who she was. Therefore the writers hadn't included the fact Shadi was her father because it would make her seem like a jerk but because it wouldn't make sense to reveal that fact first case, especially when they were pulling the shock "Phoenix Wright's daughter!" thing on us.
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Yeah right.
Did he leave her money? Did he leave her with people to care for her? Zak had no idea Phoenix would adopt Trucy. It's the kind of plot point of convinience which still leaves us incredulous.
If he'd cared at ALL, he would have at least left her money, resources and proper arrangements 7 YEARS AGO.
And the alternative was not 'death'. Zak was not guilty of murder, so it was possible the courts may find him innocent, with a different lawyer. He wasn't found guilty.
Did he leave her money? Did he leave her with people to care for her? Zak had no idea Phoenix would adopt Trucy. It's the kind of plot point of convinience which still leaves us incredulous.
If he'd cared at ALL, he would have at least left her money, resources and proper arrangements 7 YEARS AGO.
And the alternative was not 'death'. Zak was not guilty of murder, so it was possible the courts may find him innocent, with a different lawyer. He wasn't found guilty.
For all you know he could have left her money and a person (Brushel) to look after her. Also he claims you can learn a lot about a man through a game of poker and he learned that Phoenix was someone he could trust. It might not seem like much but it was enough for Zak to tell Trucy that this man would care for her.
And the charge was murder and are you really implying that another lawyer could do a better job than Phoenix? When the tides are turned against you and your lawyer presents his trump card....only it turns out to be fake and he gets disbarred leaving you essentially looking guilty on your own....if the death sentence is the punishment for outright murder then I think Zak was justified in assuming he would get declared guilty and pre-empting his verdict with his escape route.
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Confirming that Zak is the type of nasty individual who spends great time and effort on an evil reputation-destroying plan to 'thank' that guy who looked after HIS DAUGHTER, rather than it just being an isolated jerkish/loss of temper moment.
His profile says he is supposedly a good guy but deadly competitive. Losing is his one critical weakpoint other than that he is a pleasent individual and since he'd lost to Phoenix before he was taking precautions. It's not like Phoenix doesn't cheat, bringing Trucy to matches to psychically read his opponent's minds? Yeah....that's fair.
Also I suggest you treat Phoenix_Justice with a tad more respect Icer.
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Midnight Jasper wrote:
Whoa, pretty spirited debate going on here. I just want to point out that about the hitting Olga thing, although we don't know about how he hit Brushel (Brushel said the hits were sometimes pretty hard but he didn't really seem to mind), it's not the same as punching or shoving someone out of anger like Apollo and Phoenix have done - that's still bad, but I'm sure everyone's gotten mad and shoved someone at some point in their lives. Zak actually grabbed a glass bottle off the table and hit her over the head - as someone said before, a blow strong enough to kill her. That's like Sahwit panicking and hitting Cindy Stone with the statue in the first case (note I'm not comparing Zak to Sahwit or anything like that, just the attack). Olga was lucky that she 'only' had a concussion. There's no way that Zak was oblivious to the amount of damage that could've been caused - either he was conscious of it, or he was blinded with rage to really dangerous levels.
or he wasn't angry enough to hit her really hard,or he wasn't madly in rage but then was able to control his hit to only making her fall unconcious
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Phoenix_Justice wrote:
Midnight Jasper wrote:
Whoa, pretty spirited debate going on here. I just want to point out that about the hitting Olga thing, although we don't know about how he hit Brushel (Brushel said the hits were sometimes pretty hard but he didn't really seem to mind), it's not the same as punching or shoving someone out of anger like Apollo and Phoenix have done - that's still bad, but I'm sure everyone's gotten mad and shoved someone at some point in their lives. Zak actually grabbed a glass bottle off the table and hit her over the head - as someone said before, a blow strong enough to kill her. That's like Sahwit panicking and hitting Cindy Stone with the statue in the first case (note I'm not comparing Zak to Sahwit or anything like that, just the attack). Olga was lucky that she 'only' had a concussion. There's no way that Zak was oblivious to the amount of damage that could've been caused - either he was conscious of it, or he was blinded with rage to really dangerous levels.
or he wasn't angry enough to hit her really hard,or he wasn't madly in rage but then was able to control his hit to only making her fall unconcious
That's what he's saying, lets not forget Zak is a relatively strong man, stronger than Kristoph and Sawhit I reckon, either managed to hold back or was as I think absolutely out of control with fury.
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Pierre wrote:
That's what he's saying, lets not forget Zak is a relatively strong man, stronger than Kristoph and Sawhit I reckon, either managed to hold back or was as I think absolutely out of control with fury.
Well, he's pretty well-built, but for all we know he was sissy wrists and punches like a girl.
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Icarus wrote:
Pierre wrote:
That's what he's saying, lets not forget Zak is a relatively strong man, stronger than Kristoph and Sawhit I reckon, either managed to hold back or was as I think absolutely out of control with fury.
Well, he's pretty well-built, but for all we know he was sissy wrists and punches like a girl.
True the mantastic picture kinda emphasises his buffness but Brushel says he can hit pretty well.
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Pierre wrote:
Phoenix_Justice wrote:
Midnight Jasper wrote:
Whoa, pretty spirited debate going on here. I just want to point out that about the hitting Olga thing, although we don't know about how he hit Brushel (Brushel said the hits were sometimes pretty hard but he didn't really seem to mind), it's not the same as punching or shoving someone out of anger like Apollo and Phoenix have done - that's still bad, but I'm sure everyone's gotten mad and shoved someone at some point in their lives. Zak actually grabbed a glass bottle off the table and hit her over the head - as someone said before, a blow strong enough to kill her. That's like Sahwit panicking and hitting Cindy Stone with the statue in the first case (note I'm not comparing Zak to Sahwit or anything like that, just the attack). Olga was lucky that she 'only' had a concussion. There's no way that Zak was oblivious to the amount of damage that could've been caused - either he was conscious of it, or he was blinded with rage to really dangerous levels.
or he wasn't angry enough to hit her really hard,or he wasn't madly in rage but then was able to control his hit to only making her fall unconcious
That's what he's saying, lets not forget Zak is a relatively strong man, stronger than Kristoph and Sawhit I reckon, either managed to hold back or was as I think absolutely out of control with fury.
You have a point, but it's still not exactly normal - to get angry enough to grab something dangerous to hit her with, but calm enough to hold back his anger? Either he wasn't fully in control of his actions, or he knew what he was doing and hit her with a weapon that was potentially very dangerous. That's kinda like getting mad and thunking someone over the head with a dictionary - but holding back so they don't die. Like I said, it's not really... normal behaviour
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I can think of situations where I've got mad and held back.
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Midnight Jasper wrote:
I know, but if he didn't really want to injure her he wouldn't have used a bottle in the first place, right?
as i said before,what matter's more than the hit method is the damage.
for example,spiderman has superhuman strength in which one strong punch would be fatal for a human receaver,say a thieve,so despite spiderman knowing that his fists at full strength would result in murder,he greatly pull's his punches to avoid bloodshed.
same goes here,zak know's the bottle hit at full strength would result in death,yet he can avoid the bloodshed,by a much lighter,yet really hard bottle hit.
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Oh, by the hood you were talking about the hood on his coat, not his beanie hat. My apologies, I was confused.
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rydus65 wrote:
^I don't think Olga intentionally screwed Zak. If she wanted to do that, she either would of not planted the card at all, or she would of planted a card on Zak instead.
Oh, by the hood you were talking about the hood on his coat, not his beanie hat. My apologies, I was confused.
Oh, by the hood you were talking about the hood on his coat, not his beanie hat. My apologies, I was confused.
Yes thats true but think about how it appeared to Zack. Olga in her russian persona says she'll plant a card. Accepts payment up front.
Zak goes to collect the planted card finds it not there. Russian Olga shrugs not knowing what the deal is, she can easily keep up the barmaid persona and get off clean.
To Zak there's nothing to suggest she wasn't screwing him.
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Pierre wrote:
rydus65 wrote:
^I don't think Olga intentionally screwed Zak. If she wanted to do that, she either would of not planted the card at all, or she would of planted a card on Zak instead.
Oh, by the hood you were talking about the hood on his coat, not his beanie hat. My apologies, I was confused.
Oh, by the hood you were talking about the hood on his coat, not his beanie hat. My apologies, I was confused.
Yes thats true but think about how it appeared to Zack. Olga in her russian persona says she'll plant a card. Accepts payment up front.
Zak goes to collect the planted card finds it not there. Russian Olga shrugs not knowing what the deal is, she can easily keep up the barmaid persona and get off clean.
To Zak there's nothing to suggest she wasn't screwing him.
Zak sacrifices the moral high ground because he was using Olga in order to screw someone else.
Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Icarus wrote:
Pierre wrote:
rydus65 wrote:
^I don't think Olga intentionally screwed Zak. If she wanted to do that, she either would of not planted the card at all, or she would of planted a card on Zak instead.
Oh, by the hood you were talking about the hood on his coat, not his beanie hat. My apologies, I was confused.
Oh, by the hood you were talking about the hood on his coat, not his beanie hat. My apologies, I was confused.
Yes thats true but think about how it appeared to Zack. Olga in her russian persona says she'll plant a card. Accepts payment up front.
Zak goes to collect the planted card finds it not there. Russian Olga shrugs not knowing what the deal is, she can easily keep up the barmaid persona and get off clean.
To Zak there's nothing to suggest she wasn't screwing him.
Zak sacrifices the moral high ground because he was using Olga in order to screw someone else.
He expects a paid professional to at least have standards. Besides in his eyes he was also giving him great wealth.
Made by Chesu+Zombee
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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I'd think a better resturant example would be Tres Bien and Armstrong. I can already see Zak's reaction if he'd ever tasted Armstrong's overpriced, bad food. I'd definently think Zak would either punch Armstrong or hit him with one of his aromatherapy bottles. Because Zak is a jerk like that. Of course, some of the few people who like Zak like him for the jerkness. And a lot of people hate or dislike Armstrong as well, myself included.
Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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rydus65 wrote:
Now that I think about it, Olga would have to have some skill to be a swindler. If she didn't, no one would ever hired her in the first place. I'd doubt Zak Gramerye would have hired a novice/rookie/etc. for the job. Olga couldn't have faked her reputation(maybe overplayed it a little/some/a lot, but not faked it), unlike Luke Atmey, who could get away with faking his reputation because he was the mastermind behind Mask Demasque's heights except the first. Though I think Luke was a detective even before Ron's stole the jewel and Atmey found the costume.
I'd think a better resturant example would be Tres Bien and Armstrong. I can already see Zak's reaction if he'd ever tasted Armstrong's overpriced, bad food. I'd definently think Zak would either punch Armstrong or hit him with one of his aromatherapy bottles. Because Zak is a jerk like that. Of course, some of the few people who like Zak like him for the jerkness. And a lot of people hate or dislike Armstrong as well, myself included.
I'd think a better resturant example would be Tres Bien and Armstrong. I can already see Zak's reaction if he'd ever tasted Armstrong's overpriced, bad food. I'd definently think Zak would either punch Armstrong or hit him with one of his aromatherapy bottles. Because Zak is a jerk like that. Of course, some of the few people who like Zak like him for the jerkness. And a lot of people hate or dislike Armstrong as well, myself included.
I'd liken people who punch Armstrong to Saints.
Tis why I love and praise Tigre.
Still in this case scenario Zak would go to the restaurant pay for high quality food and receive a plate of cardboard. He's not just been charged ridiculous amounts for sub-par service, he's also been cheated.
Made by Chesu+Zombee
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
I feel violated... and crispy...
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Zak, on the other hand, seems to ENJOY being a selfish jerk. He abandons his daughter, then laughs about it to Phoenix years later. He causes Phoenix to lose his badge because he couldnt just GIVE PHOENIX THE REAL EVIDENCE FOR SOME REASON. Nope, too busy planning some big escape.
And then his random acts of violence. Zak seems like he's normally a fun guy who loves to laugh, but then just has these terrifying moments of violence. Just... wow. He could have killed Olga. Over what? A rigged card game? To best a man who had lost everything to help him AND was raising his daughter?
It worries me a little to think of how he must've treated his wife. Eeesh. Poor Thalassa. Come to think of it, I wouldn't be surprised at all if he shot her.
Don't get me wrong, I love Zak! I love his character as the HUGE jerk he is! XD
I know who Apollo's real father is, and I have evidence...
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
justice is always wright ;)
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pleadingeyes wrote:
To me Valant just seemed like he was vain but harmless, and all the years of being belittled and Zak beating him at everything, and then Magnifi's dying threat just pushed him over the edge. And he was deeply ashamed after.
Zak, on the other hand, seems to ENJOY being a selfish jerk. He abandons his daughter, then laughs about it to Phoenix years later. He causes Phoenix to lose his badge because he couldnt just GIVE PHOENIX THE REAL EVIDENCE FOR SOME REASON. Nope, too busy planning some big escape.
And then his random acts of violence. Zak seems like he's normally a fun guy who loves to laugh, but then just has these terrifying moments of violence. Just... wow. He could have killed Olga. Over what? A rigged card game? To best a man who had lost everything to help him AND was raising his daughter?
and the card game would only have lost wright his reputation as a poker player,something wright deserves since he cheated,yet won't couse money problems due to giving trucy the rights.
It worries me a little to think of how he must've treated his wife. Eeesh. Poor Thalassa. Come to think of it, I wouldn't be surprised at all if he shot her.
Don't get me wrong, I love Zak! I love his character as the HUGE jerk he is! XD
Zak, on the other hand, seems to ENJOY being a selfish jerk. He abandons his daughter, then laughs about it to Phoenix years later. He causes Phoenix to lose his badge because he couldnt just GIVE PHOENIX THE REAL EVIDENCE FOR SOME REASON. Nope, too busy planning some big escape.
And then his random acts of violence. Zak seems like he's normally a fun guy who loves to laugh, but then just has these terrifying moments of violence. Just... wow. He could have killed Olga. Over what? A rigged card game? To best a man who had lost everything to help him AND was raising his daughter?
and the card game would only have lost wright his reputation as a poker player,something wright deserves since he cheated,yet won't couse money problems due to giving trucy the rights.
It worries me a little to think of how he must've treated his wife. Eeesh. Poor Thalassa. Come to think of it, I wouldn't be surprised at all if he shot her.
Don't get me wrong, I love Zak! I love his character as the HUGE jerk he is! XD
I'll be happy to repeat myself,zak didn't give wright the paper couse wright would have won which would have coused valant being arrested as the murderer,and he's not the one that coused wright to lose his badge,that was kristof's foult.
as for valant being innocent and incapable,incompetence and inabilaty by itself doesn't determine if a person is good hearted,zak was simply better than valant at magic,and other than that,valant betrayed zak by framing him for murder for the rights,i am not gonna say he planned murder couse he later overcame the devil,but later the devil overcame him into framing zak for murder and manupilating the crime scene.
as for zak loughing about leaving his doughter,as pierre had shown,zak had said words of concern and worry(or something like that)
as for how he could have killed olga,i'll say it as many times as you like,what matter's more than the method is the damage dealt,i am sure superman is fully knowing of how a full powered punch from him could lead a human being to death,yet he knock's out burglers by weaker punches,same for zak,the bottle could inflict death,but with less force,would inflict only loss of consciousness.
Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
I feel violated... and crispy...
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Phoenix_Justice wrote:
as for how he could have killed olga,i'll say it as many times as you like,what matter's more than the method is the damage dealt,i am sure superman is fully knowing of how a full powered punch from him could lead a human being to death,yet he knock's out burglers by weaker punches,same for zak,the bottle could inflict death,but with less force,would inflict only loss of consciousness.
Thaaaat's a pretty lousy justification for assault, wouldn't you say?
"Yeah, he COULD have killed you, but he didn't. Nevermind he still KNOCKED YOU OUT WITH A BOTTLE, and could have caused you brain injury regardless, the point is he didn't KILL you!"
Yeah, sorry, but what Zak did could still be considered attempted murder. If you hold a knife to someone's throat, even if you don't actually slit their throat open, you can STILL get charged! If you assault someone in a way that could kill them, it is STILL considered intent to murder in a court of law.
Sorry, but the "he could of but he held back" excuse just doesn't fly. The point remains, he used a weapon which had the ability to be deadly--especially in the hands of someone as well-built as Zak--and assaulted a woman over a card game.
I know who Apollo's real father is, and I have evidence...
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