Changing the face of Justice forever? (spoilers)

Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:52 pm

Pierre

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As we all know due to Justice's actions, now we have to use a Jurist system in order to decide who's innocent or guilty.

It worked against Kristoph in the final case but how will it work in future systems?

After all in almost every other case you can win through decisive evidence or via pressuring the witness/suspect to breaking point but now with this system in place will it help or hinder the process in GS5?

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Re: Changing the face of Justice forever? (spoilers)

Sun Jul 20, 2008 5:34 am

Katana

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I think this has been discussed in another topic already.
The games won't necessarily be more or less difficult as a result of the jurist system. I don't think it'll even really affect gameplay. It just means you don't quite need a "legally binding" not guilty verdict.

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Re: Changing the face of Justice forever? (spoilers)

Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:08 pm

major_pw_fan

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i think it will play the same but instead of the judge giving the verdict it wud be the jury and that is case 4-4 the player picking the result was just a one off

OBJECTION " i objection this is objectionable"

OBJECTION " i object to the witnesses talkitiveness"

Re: Changing the face of Justice forever? (spoilers)

Sun Jul 20, 2008 8:17 pm

Pierre

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Yeah but shouldn't it make it a little too easy?

After all most of the time thats all the prosecution has to defend it's claims...evidence. Without the need for decisive evidence it shouldn't be too hard for Phoenix or Apollo to sway the jury with very likely possibilities.

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Re: Changing the face of Justice forever? (spoilers)

Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:00 am

TheSteelSamurai

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The topic title made me thing that would be a perfect title for one of the next two games. Apollo Justice: Justice Forever!

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Re: Changing the face of Justice forever? (spoilers)

Thu Jul 24, 2008 3:29 am

Magnus Orion

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Well, technically the verdict reached with the jurist system was different than it would have been without. Since it was a test trial, and the verdict was different than it normally would have been, doesn't that mean that the jurist's common sense may interfere with the law, scientifically speaking? :sassy:

Perhaps they threw it out after the case?

Re: Changing the face of Justice forever? (spoilers)

Thu Jul 24, 2008 3:56 am

Greeny

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I think it won't change anything. It'll probably just be Judge Fickle times six.
And it's not like the possibilities the defense claim are ever likely. xD

Re: Changing the face of Justice forever? (spoilers)

Thu Jul 24, 2008 4:01 am

Mystic Mina

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It's probably going to be gone by GS5... Somehow it will. Maybe it'll be unsuccessful? Maybe they'll see that the people's common sense isn't enough for the law?

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Re: Changing the face of Justice forever? (spoilers)

Thu Jul 24, 2008 4:01 am

TheSteelSamurai

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Well, case 4-4 was just a test, so first they have to decide to go with it. That will take time, and then it will take even more time to finally start using it. And who knows, maybe we'll even have to deal with some corruption on the jury.

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Re: Changing the face of Justice forever? (spoilers)

Thu Jul 24, 2008 4:06 am

jkiddingXD

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Yea, i doubt the jurist system will stay. I thought that was only there for

Spoiler: 4-4

Re: Changing the face of Justice forever? (spoilers)

Thu Jul 24, 2008 4:23 am

Superninfreak

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jkiddingXD wrote:

Yea, i doubt the jurist system will stay. I thought that was only there for

Spoiler: 4-4

It's there because Capcom required them to show a positive view of a jury system.

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Re: Changing the face of Justice forever? (spoilers)

Thu Jul 24, 2008 5:26 am

Shiki Tohno

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Superninfreak wrote:

It's there because Capcom required them to show a positive view of a jury system.

Exactly. The Jury System is about to be (or was recently) implemented in japanese law, so Capcom wanted to introduce the system to gamers as well in a positive light, so general adoption doesn't come off as painful.

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Re: Changing the face of Justice forever? (spoilers)

Thu Jul 24, 2008 8:08 am

Pierre

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If they get rid of it it's gonna look bad as it'll be just like :garyuu:

was saying- theres no place for common feelings in the law, I'd think they'd have to keep it.

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Re: Changing the face of Justice forever? (spoilers)

Fri Jul 25, 2008 2:12 pm

Croik

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They could easily preserve the normal gameplay by just saying, "It turns out that jurists are just as hard to convince as the Judge!" We can easily assume that it was Kristoph freaking out like a monster that proved to the jury that mayyyybe Vera was innocent. In 4-4 it was the introduction of the jury itself that caused him to blow up, but if the system is implimented that will never throw a suspect again. In fact, witnesses on the stand may become even more cunning, acting as friendly as possible since they know they're playing to an audience. They could become harder to expose than ever.

Imagine if in GS5 Apollo ended up with... someone like Will Powers as his client, and the guilty party was a celebrity hottie like Matt Engarde. He would still have to get "Matt" to expose himself if he wanted a guaranteed Not Guilty verdict, and like most cases before, he would have to do it with evidence. There's no change to the procedure and it could be even harder than ever.

GS5 has plenty of options with the jury system and I think it'll work out fine.

Re: Changing the face of Justice forever? (spoilers)

Fri Jul 25, 2008 5:19 pm

Greeny

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Yup, that's what I said. Basically. Although I'm not sure about the 'harder' part.
I mean, I know the Judge has no common sense but even so, he was fooled by
all the witnesses all the same. It's because the hard evidence is there.

...And maybe also because there's a 'kick me' sign stuck to the defense's bench.

Re: Changing the face of Justice forever? (spoilers)

Fri Jul 25, 2008 5:32 pm

Cobblepotter

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I highly doubt you'll have to decide the verdict like 4-4. I think the only reason that was, was because you were seeing the court through the eyes of another key character.

Spoiler:

I think the Judge's verdict dialog will simply change to say "The Jurors have made their verdict." or something along those lines.

Spoiler: Do a nice thing today,

Re: Changing the face of Justice forever? (spoilers)

Sat Jul 26, 2008 5:50 pm

Zukhramm

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Changing the face of Justice forever:

Re: Changing the face of Justice forever? (spoilers)

Sat Jul 26, 2008 7:18 pm

Shiki Tohno

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Zukhramm wrote:

Changing the face of Justice forever:

LOL, genius. XD

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Re: Changing the face of Justice forever? (spoilers)

Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:10 am

grim_tales

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So the Jury System is sort of real? I didnt know that (not for Japan anyway), of course I know how a jury works but in the manual they always put that all legal stuff in the game is made up...

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Re: Changing the face of Justice forever? (spoilers)

Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:41 pm

Szabu

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If case 2-4 had the jurist system, the miracle would never have happen.

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Re: Changing the face of Justice forever? (spoilers)

Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:06 pm

Pierre

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Hmm remind me what was the miracle in 2-4 my memory fails me.

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Re: Changing the face of Justice forever? (spoilers)

Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:22 pm

Bad Player

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Herr Blondie wrote:

Hmm remind me what was the miracle in 2-4 my memory fails me.

Spoiler: 2-4

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Re: Changing the face of Justice forever? (spoilers)

Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:16 am

Pierre

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Well you could take his major breakdown at the end as a confession though right?

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Re: Changing the face of Justice forever? (spoilers)

Sat Aug 02, 2008 1:59 am

Bloodroot Godot

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You know how many jokes they could fit in?

Jury duty, jury duty, blackmail, eviction notice, pink slip, jury duty, jury duty, jury duty!
Virtual cookies to whoever gets the reference!

Re: Changing the face of Justice forever? (spoilers)

Sat Aug 02, 2008 4:05 am

kerobi11

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Meh. I think they made that jurist system on GS4 just to add to the already dramatic case on the way to epiphany. I also think the it will be less focused by GS5 and will probably just assume that the jurists already voted for innocence and whatnot. As for every other case, it will live on decisive evidence and testimonies since these two are the fundamentals in the trial anyway.

Til I see or read a confirmation on how GS5's gonna be and if it will actually make use if the jurist system, I'll conclude that it is just comparable on how the use of Maya's Magatama was removed from the series (with exception to 4-4 of course but represented in a different way, instead of the traditional presentation of the Magatama on individuals.).

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Re: Changing the face of Justice forever? (spoilers)

Sat Aug 02, 2008 10:49 pm

Katana

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Croik wrote:

In fact, witnesses on the stand may become even more cunning, acting as friendly as possible since they know they're playing to an audience.

Aaack. Now THIS, I wouldn't like. Isn't it just awesome in those tense moments when the murderer knows you need solid evidence?

Spoiler: previous games

See, things like that being said in court would make a jury think "He's probably the guy. I sound like Monk, don't I?" And I wouldn't want that....

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Re: Changing the face of Justice forever? (spoilers)

Sun Aug 03, 2008 3:20 pm

Peenix_Wright

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Zukhramm wrote:

Changing the face of Justice forever:

. That was hilarious.

But yeah, I don't think it'll make much of an effect on gameplay. I just think it'll be the same, but your presenting your case to jurists, not the judge.

Re: Changing the face of Justice forever? (spoilers)

Sun Aug 03, 2008 8:26 pm

DramaticaXIV2

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Zukhramm wrote:

Changing the face of Justice forever:

I love you.

It'd be pretty much the same, I think. Just six Judges. Personality identical.

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Re: Changing the face of Justice forever? (spoilers)

Tue Jan 05, 2010 8:47 pm

shadowofedgeworth

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Even if the gameplay itself does not change much (and I don't think it will, but then again, we know literally NOTHING about GS5), we're still left with the fact that the series, at least in terms of its dominant narrative themes, has changed ENTIRELY. The one recurring theme that has totally and completely defined the series up to now is the struggle against a broken system that requires nothing less than decisive evidence to convict someone. But when that central theme is erased...what happens next?

It's been mentioned in other threads, but I'd say that jury corruption is a major possibility for a new overarching theme of the narrative. Please check out http://gamesforjames.blogspot.com/2009/09/verdict-of-forgiveness-jurist-system.html and tell me what you think!

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Re: Changing the face of Justice forever? (spoilers)

Tue Jan 12, 2010 6:08 am

Karmi-Sempai

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If you ask me, the Jury System does make me wonder... (And no; I don't wanna call it the Jurist System because the name is contradictory to itself.)
AA follows the Inquisitive System wherein the judge doesn't hold biases against the defendant and asks questions to unravel the truth. This is also how witnesses are allowed to repeat and revise their testimonies. This is ideal for AA because the courts hold a simple Bench Trial, wherein nobody but the judge is allowed to contribute to the verdict.
However, the purpose of a jury is to render judgment based on the feelings and the wisdom of the common people. Therefore, a Jury System shall be used, and not an Inquisitive one. In conducting Jury Trials, a lawyer can catch a witness lying in pretty much the same way Phoenix does. However, revising testimonies isn't allowed since it doesn't work that way. Plus, the very act of lying is enough for the jury to discredit or to hold some sort of bias against the witness. The way real-life lawyers influence the verdict is through giving their own interpretations of the evidence or through swaying emotions.
Ergo, if the game truly holds Jury Trials, there should be no need for an Inquisitive System.

However, AA gives a modified version of this, so I believe this new "Jurist System" will be a combination of the Inquisitive System and of the Jury System. Meaning, the game play would basically stay the same but without so much of a dire need for decisive evidence. In fact, circumstantial bases might suffice. Besides, it wouldn't be as fun. :)

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Re: Changing the face of Justice forever? (spoilers)

Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:36 am

Colonel Olrik

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I think it'll be along the lines of "Oh no! The Jury are just as difficult as the judge to convince!" route.

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Jury duty, jury duty, blackmail, eviction notice, pink slip, jury duty, jury duty, jury duty!
Virtual cookies to whoever gets the reference!

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Re: Changing the face of Justice forever? (spoilers)

Tue Jan 12, 2010 3:50 pm

Ping'

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As some others said, the jurist system doesn't make the game easier at all.
Basically, if:
- your client looks suspicious (which is often the case)
- there is solid (sometimes even decisive) evidence against him, that needs to be interpreted in a different, somewhat farfetched, way, to innocent him (pretty frequent as well)
- the real culprit doesn't look the part (think Dahlia, or Matt)
You will still need either decisive evidence or a confession to get a "not guilty" verdict.

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Re: Changing the face of Justice forever? (spoilers)

Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:48 pm

Pierre

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Ping' wrote:

As some others said, the jurist system doesn't make the game easier at all.
Basically, if:
- your client looks suspicious (which is often the case)
- there is solid (sometimes even decisive) evidence against him, that needs to be interpreted in a different, somewhat farfetched, way, to innocent him (pretty frequent as well)
- the real culprit doesn't look the part (think Dahlia, or Matt)
You will still need either decisive evidence or a confession to get a "not guilty" verdict.

I thought they didn't need need decisive evidence OR a confession, that was Kristoph's downfall right? Plus openly insulting the entire jury crew.

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Re: Changing the face of Justice forever? (spoilers)

Wed Jan 13, 2010 7:49 pm

grim_tales

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Interesting about the jury system, I just heard an item on the news the other day in the UK about people being called up for jury duty etc, how difficult it is and how judges still have the rule of law, or something like that.

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Re: Changing the face of Justice forever? (spoilers)

Wed Jan 13, 2010 9:17 pm

Colonel Olrik

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In the UK, Juries are used in cases heard in the Crown Court. They decide the verdict, and the judge decides the sentence. The judge can point out and direct a facet of law to the jury, but they are not allowed to directly pressure, threaten or influence them. In civil cases (such as defamation), they can also decide the damages paid by the losing party.

I'm taking my Law Exam tommorow, so I have to know these things =D

Re: Changing the face of Justice forever? (spoilers)

Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:06 pm

Greener223

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dude judges can also dismiss facts and evidence as he/she pleases

and the prosecution for something in the UK is called the Crown, since he represents the monarchy or state or province or england or queen or i don't care im canadian not british

and you remember when apollo, trucy and klavier looked at the player when they mentioned that the jury saw everything by camera to kristoph?

Spoiler: All AA games