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Phoenix's Change in PersonalityTopic%20Title
OfflineSuspect Fri Apr 20, 2007 4:47 am
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I've read various complaints on GS4 for the fact that Phoenix's personality is so dramatically different that it is unrealistic. So I was wondering if this is really true. I mean, seven years is a very long time for someone like Phoenix to become Hobohodo . Or is the change that absurd that even the time gap does not account for it enough?
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Re: Phoenix's Change in PersonalityTopic%20Title
OfflineProsecutor Fri Apr 20, 2007 4:56 am
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Spoiler:
The change is absurb to me because I can't believe that his friends would allow it to happen under the circumstances it did. Had it been done in a different way or for a different reason, I might have been able to swallow it easier.
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Re: Phoenix's Change in PersonalityTopic%20Title
OfflineScanlator Fri Apr 20, 2007 8:40 am
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Phil wrote:
I've read various complaints on GS4 for the fact that Phoenix's personality is so dramatically different that it is unrealistic. So I was wondering if this is really true. I mean, seven years is a very long time for someone like Phoenix to become Hobohodo . Or is the change that absurd that even the time gap does not account for it enough?

Spoiler:
It's not absurd at all. He's no longer a lawyer and he's got a rather changed view on many things, but that's credible enough with seven years of extra experience. He's still a pretty awesome character.
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Re: Phoenix's Change in PersonalityTopic%20Title
OfflineProsecutor Fri Apr 20, 2007 9:33 am
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Phoenix is just going down the same route Mia Fey did. Only this time, Phoenix is poor.

In GS3, Mia Fey was just as quirky and inexperienced as Phoenix in the first three games, but she matured and grew into the independent Mia Fey that Phoenix turns to. Now it's Phoenix's turn to take a walk down matureness avenue, and support Housuke.
Spoiler: Do a nice thing today,
Give your computer some love. <3
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Re: Phoenix's Change in PersonalityTopic%20Title
OfflineDecisive Witness Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:08 pm
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musouka wrote:
Spoiler:
The change is absurb to me because I can't believe that his friends would allow it to happen under the circumstances it did. Had it been done in a different way or for a different reason, I might have been able to swallow it easier.


Spoiler: major case 4-4 spoiler
But notice that in the flashback case Maya isn't there. She's probably hasn't come back to him either after hearing about the "fact (because he didn't know it was forged- it was innocently handed to him by Minuki )" that he used forged evidence in that flashback case (which chronologically speaking should have been case 3-6). Same with most of his other friends, most likely (except for Older Ema , apparently)
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Re: Phoenix's Change in PersonalityTopic%20Title
OfflineAdmin Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:43 pm
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Spoiler: But then... (4-2)
That wouldn't explain the fact that the game hints that Maya sent him a present when he was in Hospital. I think she just went back to Kurain and became the master after 3-5. She probably kept in contact with him through letters (Unless Kurain got a mobile phone mast :F)
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Re: Phoenix's Change in PersonalityTopic%20Title
OfflineProsecutor Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:46 pm
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jamar wrote:
Spoiler: major case 4-4 spoiler
But notice that in the flashback case Maya isn't there. She's probably hasn't come back to him either after hearing about the "fact (because he didn't know it was forged- it was innocently handed to him by Minuki )" that he used forged evidence in that flashback case (which chronologically speaking should have been case 3-6). Same with most of his other friends, most likely (except for Older Ema , apparently)



Spoiler: 3-5, 4-4
And, again, I can't imagine that any of his friends would actually believe he forged evidence and just break off contact because of it. Especially when it's implied that Maya didn't. Edgeworth chartered a jet in 3-5 when Phoenix needed his help, I'm expected to believe he did nothing in these circumstances?

Also, okay, Phoenix changed. I still don't want a guy that has no problem using poor rookie Odoroki the same way he was used to return as a lawyer. Find something else to do, hypocrite.
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Re: Phoenix's Change in PersonalityTopic%20Title
OfflineAdmin Fri Apr 20, 2007 2:06 pm
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I can't comment on GS4 Phoenix, but I just want to point out what a whiney, spastic little dork Phoenix was in GS3-1 (yet remaining lovable). If he can go from that to to Super Lawyer over the course of roughly 6 years, it's not so hard to believe he could change just as much another 6 years later.

Phoenix is a man in progress...still discovering himself...searching for the mysteries of life...!!!

/rambling
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Re: Phoenix's Change in PersonalityTopic%20Title
OfflineProsecutor Fri Apr 20, 2007 3:24 pm
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Gerkuman wrote:
Spoiler: But then... (4-2)
That wouldn't explain the fact that the game hints that Maya sent him a present when he was in Hospital. I think she just went back to Kurain and became the master after 3-5. She probably kept in contact with him through letters (Unless Kurain got a mobile phone mast :F)



Spoiler:
So it was Maya that sent him all those Steel Samurai mangas? Sal


I'm pretty sure Phoenix was/is still in contact with his friends, but they could only do so much in their power to help him.
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Re: Phoenix's Change in PersonalityTopic%20Title
OfflineDecisive Witness Fri Apr 20, 2007 3:27 pm
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musouka wrote:
jamar wrote:
Spoiler: major case 4-4 spoiler
But notice that in the flashback case Maya isn't there. She's probably hasn't come back to him either after hearing about the "fact (because he didn't know it was forged- it was innocently handed to him by Minuki )" that he used forged evidence in that flashback case (which chronologically speaking should have been case 3-6). Same with most of his other friends, most likely (except for Older Ema , apparently)



Spoiler: 3-5, 4-4
And, again, I can't imagine that any of his friends would actually believe he forged evidence and just break off contact because of it. Especially when it's implied that Maya didn't. Edgeworth chartered a jet in 3-5 when Phoenix needed his help, I'm expected to believe he did nothing in these circumstances?

Also, okay, Phoenix changed. I still don't want a guy that has no problem using poor rookie Odoroki the same way he was used to return as a lawyer. Find something else to do, hypocrite.

Spoiler:
Out of curiosity- what do you mean by the last line? How was Odoroki used by Phoenix (and how does that resemble the way Phoenix was used -I imagine you mean how Dahlia used him to hide her bottle of poison from the police for her-)?
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Re: Phoenix's Change in PersonalityTopic%20Title
OfflineProsecutor Fri Apr 20, 2007 4:08 pm
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Croik wrote:
I can't comment on GS4 Phoenix, but I just want to point out what a whiney, spastic little dork Phoenix was in GS3-1 (yet remaining lovable). If he can go from that to to Super Lawyer over the course of roughly 6 years, it's not so hard to believe he could change just as much another 6 years later.


Spoiler:
I don't have an issue with the idea of Phoenix v2.0 changing into Phoenix v3.0. It's the execution that rings false to me. Before I played the game, I wasn't saying anything about how "that can't be Phoenix, he would NEVER change into a hobo!" But playing the game, there's just a huge disconnect that I just can't reconcile. (I also find him far from lovable. Rather repulsive, actually, but that's just me.)


His change from 3-1 to current day was believable to me within the game because we also saw glimpses of the man he would become. Retcons are usually pretty good about that. :p

jamar wrote:
Spoiler:
Out of curiosity- what do you mean by the last line? How was Odoroki used by Phoenix (and how does that resemble the way Phoenix was used -I imagine you mean how Dahlia used him to hide her bottle of poison from the police for her-)?



Spoiler: 4-1
I'm referring to handing Odoroki falsified evidence in Odoroki's first trial.
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Re: Phoenix's Change in PersonalityTopic%20Title
OfflineAdmin Fri Apr 20, 2007 5:50 pm
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In that case, I'll shut up for now. Gregory
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Re: Phoenix's Change in PersonalityTopic%20Title
OfflineDecisive Witness Fri Apr 20, 2007 6:43 pm
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musouka wrote:
Croik wrote:
I can't comment on GS4 Phoenix, but I just want to point out what a whiney, spastic little dork Phoenix was in GS3-1 (yet remaining lovable). If he can go from that to to Super Lawyer over the course of roughly 6 years, it's not so hard to believe he could change just as much another 6 years later.


Spoiler:
I don't have an issue with the idea of Phoenix v2.0 changing into Phoenix v3.0. It's the execution that rings false to me. Before I played the game, I wasn't saying anything about how "that can't be Phoenix, he would NEVER change into a hobo!" But playing the game, there's just a huge disconnect that I just can't reconcile. (I also find him far from lovable. Rather repulsive, actually, but that's just me.)


His change from 3-1 to current day was believable to me within the game because we also saw glimpses of the man he would become. Retcons are usually pretty good about that. :p

jamar wrote:
Spoiler:
Out of curiosity- what do you mean by the last line? How was Odoroki used by Phoenix (and how does that resemble the way Phoenix was used -I imagine you mean how Dahlia used him to hide her bottle of poison from the police for her-)?



Spoiler: 4-1
I'm referring to handing Odoroki falsified evidence in Odoroki's first trial.

Spoiler:
Oh right- the bloody card. I found it strange that Garyuu accused it of being fake if he supposedly had no connection to the crime when I played through it (and didn't understand enough to completely figure out the post-trial conversation). So he was right, then. At least Odoroki's career wasn't suddenly cut short because of that unlike Phoenix's.


Interesting coincidence- in both cases Minuki was the one who handed over the fake evidence.
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Re: Phoenix's Change in PersonalityTopic%20Title
OfflineDesk Jockey Fri Apr 20, 2007 11:14 pm
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jamar wrote:
musouka wrote:
Spoiler: 4-1
I'm referring to handing Odoroki falsified evidence in Odoroki's first trial.


Spoiler:
Oh right- the bloody card. I found it strange that Garyuu accused it of being fake if he supposedly had no connection to the crime when I played through it (and didn't understand enough to completely figure out the post-trial conversation). So he was right, then. At least Odoroki's career wasn't suddenly cut short because of that unlike Phoenix's.


Interesting coincidence- in both cases Minuki was the one who handed over the fake evidence.


...But...

Spoiler:
Wouldn't that fake piece of evidence have the purpose of actually bringing the truth forth? After all, Garyuu's pointing out revealed he actually had something to do with the case.
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Re: Phoenix's Change in PersonalityTopic%20Title
OfflineDecisive Witness Sat Apr 21, 2007 4:57 am
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Spoiler:
Hey, you're right. I do suppose that this is a case of "the ends justify the means" (at least more so than in Phoenix's case).
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Re: Phoenix's Change in PersonalityTopic%20Title
OfflineDecisive Witness Sat Apr 21, 2007 5:16 am
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Spoiler: 4-1
I don't quite see how you can justify Phoenix, even outside of the ethical implications of forging evidence, deceiving and using Odoroki, risking his career, in order to further his own revenge--and never expressing any guilt for it. If Odoroki had been in on it, that would have been one thing. But he wasn't. Phoenix used him.

Phoenix isn't a defense attorney anymore. Phoenix has changed. Yes, yes, we know. What about Odoroki? What if they had been found out? Odoroki was expendable as collateral damage? What about the fact that he trusted Phoenix? What about Phoenix doing the exact same thing to an innocent kid that Garyuu is villified so much for doing to him? That doesn't strike you as just a bit callous and hypocritical? Even with all of that, it would have sat much better with me had Phoenix not essentially laughed it off and "justified" it with the most self-centered reason imaginable when Odoroki actually found out and--gasp--got upset.

I really... just don't think there justification for what Phoenix did. If it's acceptable to forge and twist evidence to further "the truth", if the "ends justify the means", what was wrong with what Lana and Gant did in SL-9? What was wrong with what Edgeworth was doing for the first four years of his career? Hey, they knew Joe Darke was guilty, and Edgeworth had made up his mind that all the people he was prosecuting were guilty. If Phoenix's actions in fabricating evidence were a-okay, then so were theirs.
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Re: Phoenix's Change in PersonalityTopic%20Title
OfflineAdmin Sat Apr 21, 2007 7:47 am
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Spoiler: The irony is...(1-5)
Gants prediction was correct, but to the wrong person. It wasn't Edgey that began to think 'the ends justify the means, it was Phoenix. And like Gant, we also see the spite and revenge in him


If anything, this makes me want to play the game more rather than less :F
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Re: Phoenix's Change in PersonalityTopic%20Title
OfflineDecisive Witness Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:53 am
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Raelle wrote:
Spoiler: 4-1
I don't quite see how you can justify Phoenix, even outside of the ethical implications of forging evidence, deceiving and using Odoroki, risking his career, in order to further his own revenge--and never expressing any guilt for it. If Odoroki had been in on it, that would have been one thing. But he wasn't. Phoenix used him.

Phoenix isn't a defense attorney anymore. Phoenix has changed. Yes, yes, we know. What about Odoroki? What if they had been found out? Odoroki was expendable as collateral damage? What about the fact that he trusted Phoenix? What about Phoenix doing the exact same thing to an innocent kid that Garyuu is villified so much for doing to him? That doesn't strike you as just a bit callous and hypocritical? Even with all of that, it would have sat much better with me had Phoenix not essentially laughed it off and "justified" it with the most self-centered reason imaginable when Odoroki actually found out and--gasp--got upset.

I really... just don't think there justification for what Phoenix did. If it's acceptable to forge and twist evidence to further "the truth", if the "ends justify the means", what was wrong with what Lana and Gant did in SL-9? What was wrong with what Edgeworth was doing for the first four years of his career? Hey, they knew Joe Darke was guilty, and Edgeworth had made up his mind that all the people he was prosecuting were guilty. If Phoenix's actions in fabricating evidence were a-okay, then so were theirs.


Spoiler:
Right- and if Odoroki tried to solely go by the evidence he had, who knows- Phoenix might be convicted of murder at best, and at worst Garyuu would push Odoroki to convict Masaka because he knows that he was the guilty one (come on- he wouldn't turn himself in, would he?). At least, the world of Phoenix Wright seems to never allow someone to go "not guilty" without finding the true guilty party. And leaving Phoenix to get convicted would lead to even greater consequences- Minuki and Odoroki would be parentless (remember who told Lamiroir about her past as Odoroki and Minuki's mother).


Oops- forgot spoiler tag
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Last edited by jamar on Sat Apr 21, 2007 6:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Phoenix's Change in PersonalityTopic%20Title
OfflineProsecutor Sat Apr 21, 2007 4:32 pm
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jamar wrote:
Spoiler:
Right- and if Odoroki tried to solely go by the evidence he had, who knows- Phoenix might be convicted of murder at best, and at worst Garyuu would push Odoroki to convict Masaka because he knows that he was the guilty one (come on- he wouldn't turn himself in, would he?). At least, the world of Phoenix Wright seems to never allow someone to go "not guilty" without finding the true guilty party.



So why did Lana go to jail again? Seems like she was doing a service by tampering with evidence as long as it lead to Darke being put away. Look, just because something has a good result doesn't mean that tampering with evidence is okay. That is why everyone else that has falsified evidence has gone to jail in the series.

Spoiler:
Also, if it was such a great thing for Odoroki, why not tell him up front? Why let him risk his entire career and put a man he deeply respected in jail because he was manipulated into doing it.
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Re: Phoenix's Change in PersonalityTopic%20Title
OfflineDecisive Witness Sat Apr 21, 2007 7:09 pm
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I see then. In that case
Spoiler:
he probably was still steaming mad about the loss of his own career and old wounds were brought up recently(this new case that attempted to pin him for murdering his client from 7 years ago) so he decided to take it out on someone connected to Garyuu under the pretense of it being a "good thing". He obviously couldn't try anything on Garyuu himself because Garyuu would figure out that Phoenix isn't exactly happy with what he did. One thing, though- I don't get how Phoenix figured out that Garyuu was the person who was the source of the faked evidence when it was Minuki that handed it to him. I didn't completely understand the pre-trial conversation there so it may have been explained there.
I do have to admit it when my theories are completely screwed up and sociopathic -
Spoiler:
I was being way too optimistic about Phoenix having good intentions
, it seems.
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Re: Phoenix's Change in PersonalityTopic%20Title
OfflineDesk Jockey Sat Apr 21, 2007 7:39 pm
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musouka wrote:
jamar wrote:
Spoiler:
Right- and if Odoroki tried to solely go by the evidence he had, who knows- Phoenix might be convicted of murder at best, and at worst Garyuu would push Odoroki to convict Masaka because he knows that he was the guilty one (come on- he wouldn't turn himself in, would he?). At least, the world of Phoenix Wright seems to never allow someone to go "not guilty" without finding the true guilty party.



So why did Lana go to jail again? Seems like she was doing a service by tampering with evidence as long as it lead to Darke being put away. Look, just because something has a good result doesn't mean that tampering with evidence is okay. That is why everyone else that has falsified evidence has gone to jail in the series.


Spoiler:
...But everyone else testified in that favor. Perhaps the false evidence charge has to be deeply investigated for someone to go to jail because of it?
Phoenix losing his job for it instead of going to jail would be explained by this one here, as the evidence law in AA lets anything enter if it has relevancy (or appears to be relevant), anything goes, anyone goes. What if someone else falsified it?

Plus: Garyuu's attempt to put Hobohodo in jail would make him also look guilty of that one, as well. After all, the only thing needed was to point out the connection, and if Garyuu hadn't COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY SCREWED UP LOLOLOLOLOL, the connection would have been brought out later... maybe by Garyuu himself. Who knows.


musouka wrote:
Spoiler:
Also, if it was such a great thing for Odoroki, why not tell him up front? Why let him risk his entire career and put a man he deeply respected in jail because he was manipulated into doing it.



Spoiler:
It had to look convincing. If Odoroki couldn't put PASSION on the forged evidence piece, Payne himself would have had noticed, and pointed it out. Making the whole thing useless.

Besides, Odoroki wouldn't have used it if told up front it was fake, no matter what the reasons. And that would have been a terrible thing for Hobohodo, Odoroki, Minuki, and perhaps for Kyouya, Lamiroir, and others too. He had to be tricked in order to pull such a feat off.

He had to take a shortcut through criminal lane for the greater good. And in the end, he was rewarded for it, didn't he?
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Re: Phoenix's Change in PersonalityTopic%20Title
OfflineProsecutor Sat Apr 21, 2007 7:57 pm
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El Huesudo II wrote:
Spoiler:
Besides, Odoroki wouldn't have used it if told up front it was fake, no matter what the reasons.



Exactly. And that's why what he did was wrong.
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Re: Phoenix's Change in PersonalityTopic%20Title
OfflineMedium-in-training Sat Apr 21, 2007 8:08 pm
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Spoiler: Case 4-1
Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but wasn't the entire point of the card that it was fake? From what I understand, Kirihito slipped because he knew the card was fake, and he knew this because he was the murderer, which is how he was caught. Of course, I could have that entirely wrong.
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Re: Phoenix's Change in PersonalityTopic%20Title
OfflineDecisive Witness Sat Apr 21, 2007 8:19 pm
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Quote:
Spoiler:
It had to look convincing. If Odoroki couldn't put PASSION on the forged evidence piece, Payne himself would have had noticed, and pointed it out. Making the whole thing useless.

Besides, Odoroki wouldn't have used it if told up front it was fake, no matter what the reasons. And that would have been a terrible thing for Hobohodo, Odoroki, Minuki, and perhaps for Kyouya, Lamiroir, and others too. He had to be tricked in order to pull such a feat off.

He had to take a shortcut through criminal lane for the greater good. And in the end, he was rewarded for it, didn't he?


Spoiler: 4-1
Exactly. Again, he used Odoroki, and basically laughed in his face when Odoroki showed how upset he was later in the case. If Phoenix had shown any hesitance or guilt on using unethical means and putting Odoroki on the line and dirtying his hands without his consent, it still would have been wrong, but it would have been far easier to swallow. Instead Phoenix just comes off as reprehensible for it, to me.

And again, if Phoenix "taking a shortcut through the criminal lane for the greater good" is okay, what was wrong with Lana and Gant's actions, what was wrong with Edgeworth's actions? If Lana and Gant hadn't forged that SL-9 evidence, Joe Darke would have gotten away again. Clearly, it's for the greater good. Edgeworth was certain in his mind that everyone he was prosecuting was guilty. Clearly, his manipulating evidence and testimonies was fine, he was putting criminals away and off the streets, it was a shortcut to the greater good!

I find this to be an incredibly terrifying mindset. If this is how Phoenix thinks now, what's going to stop him from "taking a shortcut" every other time he's "sure" that someone else committed the murder? It's for the greater good, right? What if he had tampered evidence to ensure Adrian's guilt in 2-4 when he was certain she was the killer, and walked away happy with his "good results" of convicting a murderer, freeing his client, and saving Maya? Phoenix gets to decide arbitrarily outside of the system who's a murderer and who isn't, now?

It doesn't matter if it had good results. It was the wrong thing to do, it was an incredibly selfish thing to do, and if he had been unlucky and gotten caught, it would have been Odoroki taking the fall. But that, apparently, didn't stop this Phoenix.
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Re: Phoenix's Change in PersonalityTopic%20Title
OfflineAdmin Sat Apr 21, 2007 8:29 pm
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Spoiler: Opinions
I think you're letting your like of Nick to overshadow the point that we're not supposed to swallow it. We're supposed to be on Orodoki's side, and I'm glad Orodoki punched him. He certainly needed it. His life got screwed up but instead of being like Edgey and sort himself, he did a Godot and ended up like Gant.

I suppose I'm a sucker for turnabouts. If Nick didn't become reprihensible, we wouldn't care about him being cleared at the end because he'd learn nothing.
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Re: Phoenix's Change in PersonalityTopic%20Title
OfflineDecisive Witness Sun Apr 22, 2007 4:00 am
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Raelle wrote:
Quote:
Spoiler:
It had to look convincing. If Odoroki couldn't put PASSION on the forged evidence piece, Payne himself would have had noticed, and pointed it out. Making the whole thing useless.

Besides, Odoroki wouldn't have used it if told up front it was fake, no matter what the reasons. And that would have been a terrible thing for Hobohodo, Odoroki, Minuki, and perhaps for Kyouya, Lamiroir, and others too. He had to be tricked in order to pull such a feat off.

He had to take a shortcut through criminal lane for the greater good. And in the end, he was rewarded for it, didn't he?


Spoiler: 4-1
Exactly. Again, he used Odoroki, and basically laughed in his face when Odoroki showed how upset he was later in the case. If Phoenix had shown any hesitance or guilt on using unethical means and putting Odoroki on the line and dirtying his hands without his consent, it still would have been wrong, but it would have been far easier to swallow. Instead Phoenix just comes off as reprehensible for it, to me.

And again, if Phoenix "taking a shortcut through the criminal lane for the greater good" is okay, what was wrong with Lana and Gant's actions, what was wrong with Edgeworth's actions? If Lana and Gant hadn't forged that SL-9 evidence, Joe Darke would have gotten away again. Clearly, it's for the greater good. Edgeworth was certain in his mind that everyone he was prosecuting was guilty. Clearly, his manipulating evidence and testimonies was fine, he was putting criminals away and off the streets, it was a shortcut to the greater good!

I find this to be an incredibly terrifying mindset. If this is how Phoenix thinks now, what's going to stop him from "taking a shortcut" every other time he's "sure" that someone else committed the murder? It's for the greater good, right? What if he had tampered evidence to ensure Adrian's guilt in 2-4 when he was certain she was the killer, and walked away happy with his "good results" of convicting a murderer, freeing his client, and saving Maya? Phoenix gets to decide arbitrarily outside of the system who's a murderer and who isn't, now?

It doesn't matter if it had good results. It was the wrong thing to do, it was an incredibly selfish thing to do, and if he had been unlucky and gotten caught, it would have been Odoroki taking the fall. But that, apparently, didn't stop this Phoenix.

Spoiler:
One thing- could anyone explain what was said during the post-trial conversation in 4-1? I didn't really understand it and that's probably why I put too much faith into Phoenix at least having a little bit of his old self left. Jeez- and he plans to become a lawyer again. Nope- it's time for Phoenix to step down if he really did push forged evidence on someone else without even having any regret for it.
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Re: Phoenix's Change in PersonalityTopic%20Title
OfflineDesk Jockey Sun Apr 22, 2007 4:11 am
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Raelle wrote:
Quote:
Spoiler:
It had to look convincing. If Odoroki couldn't put PASSION on the forged evidence piece, Payne himself would have had noticed, and pointed it out. Making the whole thing useless.

Besides, Odoroki wouldn't have used it if told up front it was fake, no matter what the reasons. And that would have been a terrible thing for Hobohodo, Odoroki, Minuki, and perhaps for Kyouya, Lamiroir, and others too. He had to be tricked in order to pull such a feat off.

He had to take a shortcut through criminal lane for the greater good. And in the end, he was rewarded for it, didn't he?


Spoiler: 4-1
Exactly. Again, he used Odoroki, and basically laughed in his face when Odoroki showed how upset he was later in the case. If Phoenix had shown any hesitance or guilt on using unethical means and putting Odoroki on the line and dirtying his hands without his consent, it still would have been wrong, but it would have been far easier to swallow. Instead Phoenix just comes off as reprehensible for it, to me.

And again, if Phoenix "taking a shortcut through the criminal lane for the greater good" is okay, what was wrong with Lana and Gant's actions, what was wrong with Edgeworth's actions? If Lana and Gant hadn't forged that SL-9 evidence, Joe Darke would have gotten away again. Clearly, it's for the greater good. Edgeworth was certain in his mind that everyone he was prosecuting was guilty. Clearly, his manipulating evidence and testimonies was fine, he was putting criminals away and off the streets, it was a shortcut to the greater good!

I find this to be an incredibly terrifying mindset. If this is how Phoenix thinks now, what's going to stop him from "taking a shortcut" every other time he's "sure" that someone else committed the murder? It's for the greater good, right? What if he had tampered evidence to ensure Adrian's guilt in 2-4 when he was certain she was the killer, and walked away happy with his "good results" of convicting a murderer, freeing his client, and saving Maya? Phoenix gets to decide arbitrarily outside of the system who's a murderer and who isn't, now?

It doesn't matter if it had good results. It was the wrong thing to do, it was an incredibly selfish thing to do, and if he had been unlucky and gotten caught, it would have been Odoroki taking the fall. But that, apparently, didn't stop this Phoenix.


Spoiler:
...First of all: What Lana did was indeed NOT good, because even if Darke was a murderer, a dangerous one, the true guilty faction was Gant. Later on, she accepted her punishment, because she knew she did wrong.
Gant's doings were CRIMINAL, for criminal reasons, as he wanted power.
Edgeworth's doings are wrong, because he was fooling himself all along, and he knew there was a chance he was putting an innocent on the chair.
What Adrian did wasn't good either, because, even if Matt was to blame for hiring deKiller, she didn't frame him because of that. She framed him on personal accounts, being this a criminal action, and for that reason she accepted her punishment.

However, what Phoenix did is unethical, yes, but it wasn't wrong. Because, in the end, he knew what had happened. He knew what could set the whole thing off and reveal the truth. And even if he didn't know, he could have jumped in to save Odoroki by going "I handed that evidence in" and taking the rightful blame if something went wrong. After all, Phoenix IS responsible for Odo.

He just needed to dirty his hands. He wasn't doing anything criminal per se, even if the methods used were wrong. But if he hadn't jumped the gun, the case would have remained unsolved, or he would have gotten the Guilty verdict. Thus diminishing the chance of catching the real guilty faction.
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Re: Phoenix's Change in PersonalityTopic%20Title
OfflineDesk Jockey Sun Apr 22, 2007 5:09 am
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jamar wrote:
Raelle wrote:
Quote:

Spoiler:
One thing- could anyone explain what was said during the post-trial conversation in 4-1? I didn't really understand it and that's probably why I put too much faith into Phoenix at least having a little bit of his old self left. Jeez- and he plans to become a lawyer again. Nope- it's time for Phoenix to step down if he really did push forged evidence on someone else without even having any regret for it.



Spoiler:
I havn't got into that part of the translation yet...but basically Naruhodo invited Odoroko to his office, but mentioned that he no longer qualify to stand in court as a defense attorney, then cut off the topic to ask if Odoroki felt anything was faked during the trial, and Odoroki said he felt the blooded Ace was faked. Naruhodo admitted that he forged this card, because the real card was taken by the criminal, so only the real killer could realize that was a fake card.

Odoroki said a lawyer can not do this, but Naruhodo said " I' m no longer a lawyer." This gave Odoroki an impression that 7 years ago Naruhodo did forge evidence and got his badge revoked. Naruhodo told him "now, it does not matter any more. It's time for your story to begin." Which left Odoroki speechless. After that Odoroki supposed yelled at him with Take That ...so I guess this is where the mentioned punch goes? Naruhodo smiled and walked out with good-bye.

That's about all the conversation part in the end of 4-1.


How to think of Naruhodo in this matter is totally up to personal opinion.


Spoiler:
To me it was a 50-50, as Naruhodo said himself, Garyuu had all his rights to point out that it was a fake, but for obvious reasons, he could not do it. No matter the card was faked or real, Garyuu was meant to be convicted. The card served as a bait...not the final evidence, the final evidence was that bottle with 5 of the Hearts inside. However for Odoroki this was way too risky and illegal and that is why he was speechless in the end.

But I have to point out, based on Evidence Law introduced in 1-5, Odoroki should not take that card as evidence in the first place. He bears his own fault if that card was to be pointed out by Garyuu as a fake. Odoroki was a pawn in this through and through, first for Garyuu, later for Naruhodo...either way he would end up being cheated.

The entire Case 1 was there to build up a semi-false image of Naruhodo and cause people to think of the obvious on the 7-yr-old case. A bit of over-done maybe, but don't compare him to Gant, Gant went as far as commiting capital crimes to forge evidence - he killed Marshall and Goodman.


Me? I don't really care about his personality change as long as there is a good story behind. Grossburg
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Re: Phoenix's Change in PersonalityTopic%20Title
OfflineProsecutor Sun Apr 22, 2007 5:33 am
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Spoiler:
Evidence law doesn't really have a place, even in GS4. I mean, if it did, it would have come up in 4-2 obviously.

As for the punch, it comes up after another bit regarding the locket (that I find rather creepy in retrospect)--I'm pretty sure--and Odoroki doesn't say "Take that", Phoenix tells him that's what he would have said if he'd been punching someone.

Those are minor issues, but the point is that Odoroki obviously felt completely betrayed by Phoenix. And for good reason. Yes, it was a set up to make us believe that Phoenix would be capable of forging evidence seven years ago, but that's pointless in the long run because even if he didn't seven years ago, he does it with no qualms NOW.
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Re: Phoenix's Change in PersonalityTopic%20Title
OfflineDesk Jockey Sun Apr 22, 2007 6:29 am
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musouka wrote:
Spoiler:
Evidence law doesn't really have a place, even in GS4. I mean, if it did, it would have come up in 4-2 obviously.



（Prosecutor Garyuu, you disappoint me...) Larry
It was supposed to be brought up somewhere indirectly in Case 4, but GS4 has too many plot holes I would not be surprised of Mr. Surprise continues to do so.

musouka wrote:
Spoiler:
As for the punch, it comes up after another bit regarding the locket (that I find rather creepy in retrospect)--I'm pretty sure--and Odoroki doesn't say "Take that", Phoenix tells him that's what he would have said if he'd been punching someone.



So that is why Naruhodo said that...I need to replay it to find out exactly where Odoroki did it. My mind did not register it upon first play.

Quote:
Spoiler:
Those are minor issues, but the point is that Odoroki obviously felt completely betrayed by Phoenix. And for good reason. Yes, it was a set up to make us believe that Phoenix would be capable of forging evidence seven years ago, but that's pointless in the long run because even if he didn't seven years ago, he does it with no qualms NOW.


Spoiler:
He does have an excuse: no longer a lawyer. Like I said, it is totally up to you to evaluate his moral at this point. Yes, he used Odoroki and let him bear such a huge risk, but to me it does not matter that much, because all I care is a good story.


Without that card, there won't be the rest of the game. I'd rather let him play naughty for once to get the plot going on. I found the that more ironic and dramatic as well...more like real life, to some degree.
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Re: Phoenix's Change in PersonalityTopic%20Title
OfflineProsecutor Sun Apr 22, 2007 6:32 am
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Naila wrote:
Spoiler:
He does have an excuse: no longer a lawyer.



Spoiler:
But the game leaves off with him planning to become one again.
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Re: Phoenix's Change in PersonalityTopic%20Title
OfflineAce Attorney Sun Apr 22, 2007 7:02 am
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Re: Phoenix's Change in PersonalityTopic%20Title
OfflineDesk Jockey Sun Apr 22, 2007 7:17 am
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musouka wrote:
Spoiler:
But the game leaves off with him planning to become one again.



Spoiler:
That raise a fun question -what will he do in the future? (Which I doubt we will get the chance to see much. Poor Odoroki...bad enough he had to face him most of the times in this one.) Judging from that, the makers of the game don't think he has a big problem, unlike a few of us here. (Asian cultures don't take gray area as seriously as western cultures do, and none of my friends had problems with his change, so I guess none of the makers had either.)


This new Phoenix may be gray enough to make you want to throw things at him, but he is way more interesting. From that perspective I welcome the change.

Spoiler:
One ironic fact is that although he used the illegal way this time, he did find out the truth. Can't wait for Edgeworth to comment on it.
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Re: Phoenix's Change in PersonalityTopic%20Title
OfflineAce Attorney Sun Apr 22, 2007 4:09 pm
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People's personality change as they grow up.
Let us dye the world in despair, and bring a dismal end to this fairy tale.
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Re: Phoenix's Change in PersonalityTopic%20Title
OfflineDecisive Witness Sun Apr 22, 2007 5:36 pm
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Raelle wrote:
Spoiler: 4-1
I find this to be an incredibly terrifying mindset. If this is how Phoenix thinks now, what's going to stop him from "taking a shortcut" every other time he's "sure" that someone else committed the murder? It's for the greater good, right? What if he had tampered evidence to ensure Adrian's guilt in 2-4 when he was certain she was the killer, and walked away happy with his "good results" of convicting a murderer, freeing his client, and saving Maya?


Don't we see the result of that in the "game over" of 2-4? Of course, that was when he knew she was innocent. I think that the result would be similar in one way, though- Maya would have never returned to him for what he did because she would know that Adrian was innocent.

EDIT- didn't read completely through post
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Re: Phoenix's Change in PersonalityTopic%20Title
OfflineDecisive Witness Sun Apr 22, 2007 6:28 pm
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Spoiler: My Thoughts, quite quite QUITE spoilery
Ok...admittedly, I haven't played the game. I'm working off of spoilers here.

While Phoenix did seem to use forged evidence here...I think it was done in a way that was a little more forgivable than Gant/Lana, and Adrian.

One key difference between those situations and Phoenix seems to be this: Phoenix let the guilty party hang himself. Phoenix used fake evidence...but not for the purpose of replacing the lack of real evidence. Instead, he uses it as a logical trap (somewhat similar to what he did to Gant at the end of 1-5), luring Kirihito into making a slip up and admitting something that only a person at the crime scene would know. In other words, he played a hard bluff in order to get Garyuu to admit to being at the scene.

And while it would have been bad for Odoroki, it seems like Phoenix lets the onus of blame lay on himself...and this gives Odoroki plausible denial as far as the evidence, which Phoenix didn't have 7 years ago. The assumption was that Phoenix purposely used false evidence then thanks to Kirihito's trap. Here, Phoenix admits that he himself provided the false evidence, and didn't tell Orodoki it was false, so Odo again has plausible deniability. It's playing fast and loose with the rules with risky consequences, but I don't think he was as reckless with Odoroki's career as some are making it out to be. The only question is why the need for it.

Perhaps Phoenix felt that if Garyuu wasn't caught then and there, he could have used Masaka as his scapegoat, let her take the fall, and escape. Even if new evidence was brought up later, they HAD the 'killer'. It'd be hard to revisit the case and admit that the killer they had before was wrong. This, I feel, might have been even worse for Odoroki's career if it came to light than what DID happen. Because then it'd be the BAD END of 2-4 for Odoroki: he put away someone innocent of murder. Even if he didn't prosecute her case specifically, his actions would have led to her prosecution and conviction.

Phoenix, I feel, thought this out well, and I think he did it in a way that minimized the risk for Odoroki.

Again, though I could be wrong, I haven't played the game, so I'm working off the spoilers I've read on the board to piece things together.
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Re: Phoenix's Change in PersonalityTopic%20Title
OfflineMedium-in-training Sun Apr 22, 2007 6:53 pm
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I just found it really dissapointing. It blew the whole great storyline. Yeah, he's still in it, but what happened just kinda wrecked it to me.
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Re: Phoenix's Change in PersonalityTopic%20Title
OfflineProsecutor Sun Apr 22, 2007 8:36 pm
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Kryptik:

Spoiler:
The problem with your idea is that Phoenix doesn't put the onus on himself. Phoenix only admits the evidence was faked after the trial was over. He didn't hand it to Odoroki himself, he used his fifteen year old daughter as a buffer.

When Odoroki confronts him about it, Phoenix is unapologetic over the impact of his actions on Odoroki and self-pitying.

There is a reason the makers had Odoroki punch Phoenix in the face; he deserved it.
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Re: Phoenix's Change in PersonalityTopic%20Title
OfflineMedium-in-training Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:50 pm
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Spoiler: More 4-1 goodness, and some 1-5
It's not really fake evidence in the literal sense because it isn't proof in itself that Kirihito did it, it's a trap that causes Kirihito to let slip that he did it. Like Kryptik said, it's a lot like how the cloth was used in 1-5 against Gant - the cloth itself could not prove who the murderer was, being faked, but what Gant said about the cloth made him be found guilty. It's the same thing here - the card itself didn't prove who the murderer was, but what Garyuu said about the card made him be found guilty. The only difference is, Gant faked the cloth to pin the blame on Ema, while Phoenix faked the card to make Kirihito trip up. I guess it depends on if you think the entire idea of faking evidence is wrong, whatever the reason, or if there are certain circumstances in which it is acceptable.

There's a ton of stuff in 1-5 that parallels with GS4, probably intentionally.
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Re: Phoenix's Change in PersonalityTopic%20Title
OfflineProsecutor Sun Apr 22, 2007 11:32 pm
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Guess_Who wrote:
Spoiler: More 4-1 goodness, and some 1-5
It's not really fake evidence in the literal sense because it isn't proof in itself that Kirihito did it, it's a trap that causes Kirihito to let slip that he did it. Like Kryptik said, it's a lot like how the cloth was used in 1-5 against Gant - the cloth itself could not prove who the murderer was, being faked, but what Gant said about the cloth made him be found guilty. It's the same thing here - the card itself didn't prove who the murderer was, but what Garyuu said about the card made him be found guilty. The only difference is, Gant faked the cloth to pin the blame on Ema, while Phoenix faked the card to make Kirihito trip up. I guess it depends on if you think the entire idea of faking evidence is wrong, whatever the reason, or if there are certain circumstances in which it is acceptable.



Spoiler: 4-1, 1-5 even 3-3
There are several key differences.

1. The cloth was not forged evidence. Phoenix didn't slap a couple of prints on Neil's jacket to make Gant slip up.
2. It was Phoenix's own trial. If Phoenix wants to take those risks, he is more than allowed. Manipulating someone else into doing it for him when he knows they wouldn't have wanted to is something completely different.

You can't ignore Odoroki's feelings in this. The fact that Phoenix used someone else without consent is what changes this from a "hah, good trick!" ala 3-3 into something wrong.
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