The change is absurb to me because I can't believe that his friends would allow it to happen under the circumstances it did. Had it been done in a different way or for a different reason, I might have been able to swallow it easier.

It's not absurd at all. He's no longer a lawyer and he's got a rather changed view on many things, but that's credible enough with seven years of extra experience. He's still a pretty awesome character.

But notice that in the flashback case Maya isn't there. She's probably hasn't come back to him either after hearing about the "fact (because he didn't know it was forged- it was innocently handed to him by )" that he used forged evidence in that flashback case (which chronologically speaking should have been case 3-6). Same with most of his other friends, most likely (except for , apparently)

That wouldn't explain the fact that the game hints that Maya sent him a present when he was in Hospital. I think she just went back to Kurain and became the master after 3-5. She probably kept in contact with him through letters (Unless Kurain got a mobile phone mast :F)

And, again, I can't imagine that any of his friends would actually believe he forged evidence and just break off contact because of it. Especially when it's implied that Maya didn't. Edgeworth chartered a jet in 3-5 when Phoenix needed his help, I'm expected to believe he did nothing in these circumstances?

Also, okay, Phoenix changed. I still don't want a guy that has no problem using poor rookie Odoroki the same way he was used to return as a lawyer. Find something else to do, hypocrite.

So it was Maya that sent him all those Steel Samurai mangas?

Out of curiosity- what do you mean by the last line? How was Odoroki used by Phoenix (and how does that resemble the way Phoenix was used -I imagine you mean how Dahlia used him to hide her bottle of poison from the police for her-)?

I don't have an issue with the idea of Phoenix v2.0 changing into Phoenix v3.0. It's the execution that rings false to me. Before I played the game, I wasn't saying anything about how "that can't be Phoenix, he would NEVER change into a hobo!" But playing the game, there's just a huge disconnect that I just can't reconcile. (I also find him far from lovable. Rather repulsive, actually, but that's just me.)

I'm referring to handing Odoroki falsified evidence in Odoroki's first trial.

Oh right- the bloody card. I found it strange that Garyuu accused it of being fake if he supposedly had no connection to the crime when I played through it (and didn't understand enough to completely figure out the post-trial conversation). So he was right, then. At least Odoroki's career wasn't suddenly cut short because of that unlike Phoenix's.


Interesting coincidence- in both cases Minuki was the one who handed over the fake evidence.

Wouldn't that fake piece of evidence have the purpose of actually bringing the truth forth? After all, Garyuu's pointing out revealed he actually had something to do with the case.

Hey, you're right. I do suppose that this is a case of "the ends justify the means" (at least more so than in Phoenix's case).

I don't quite see how you can justify Phoenix, even outside of the ethical implications of forging evidence, deceiving and using Odoroki, risking his career, in order to further his own revenge--and never expressing any guilt for it. If Odoroki had been in on it, that would have been one thing. But he wasn't. Phoenix used him.

Phoenix isn't a defense attorney anymore. Phoenix has changed. Yes, yes, we know. What about Odoroki? What if they had been found out? Odoroki was expendable as collateral damage? What about the fact that he trusted Phoenix? What about Phoenix doing the exact same thing to an innocent kid that Garyuu is villified so much for doing to him? That doesn't strike you as just a bit callous and hypocritical? Even with all of that, it would have sat much better with me had Phoenix not essentially laughed it off and "justified" it with the most self-centered reason imaginable when Odoroki actually found out and--gasp--got upset.

I really... just don't think there justification for what Phoenix did. If it's acceptable to forge and twist evidence to further "the truth", if the "ends justify the means", what was wrong with what Lana and Gant did in SL-9? What was wrong with what Edgeworth was doing for the first four years of his career? Hey, they knew Joe Darke was guilty, and Edgeworth had made up his mind that all the people he was prosecuting were guilty. If Phoenix's actions in fabricating evidence were a-okay, then so were theirs.

Gants prediction was correct, but to the wrong person. It wasn't Edgey that began to think 'the ends justify the means, it was Phoenix. And like Gant, we also see the spite and revenge in him

Right- and if Odoroki tried to solely go by the evidence he had, who knows- Phoenix might be convicted of murder at best, and at worst Garyuu would push Odoroki to convict Masaka because he knows that he was the guilty one (come on- he wouldn't turn himself in, would he?). At least, the world of Phoenix Wright seems to never allow someone to go "not guilty" without finding the true guilty party. And leaving Phoenix to get convicted would lead to even greater consequences- Minuki and Odoroki would be parentless (remember who told Lamiroir about her past as Odoroki and Minuki's mother).

Also, if it was such a great thing for Odoroki, why not tell him up front? Why let him risk his entire career and put a man he deeply respected in jail because he was manipulated into doing it.

he probably was still steaming mad about the loss of his own career and old wounds were brought up recently(this new case that attempted to pin him for murdering his client from 7 years ago) so he decided to take it out on someone connected to Garyuu under the pretense of it being a "good thing". He obviously couldn't try anything on Garyuu himself because Garyuu would figure out that Phoenix isn't exactly happy with what he did. One thing, though- I don't get how Phoenix figured out that Garyuu was the person who was the source of the faked evidence when it was Minuki that handed it to him. I didn't completely understand the pre-trial conversation there so it may have been explained there.

I was being way too optimistic about Phoenix having good intentions

...But everyone else testified in that favor. Perhaps the false evidence charge has to be deeply investigated for someone to go to jail because of it?
Phoenix losing his job for it instead of going to jail would be explained by this one here, as the evidence law in AA lets anything enter if it has relevancy (or appears to be relevant), anything goes, anyone goes. What if someone else falsified it?

Plus: Garyuu's attempt to put Hobohodo in jail would make him also look guilty of that one, as well. After all, the only thing needed was to point out the connection, and if Garyuu hadn't COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY SCREWED UP LOLOLOLOLOL, the connection would have been brought out later... maybe by Garyuu himself. Who knows.

It had to look convincing. If Odoroki couldn't put PASSION on the forged evidence piece, Payne himself would have had noticed, and pointed it out. Making the whole thing useless.

Besides, Odoroki wouldn't have used it if told up front it was fake, no matter what the reasons. And that would have been a terrible thing for Hobohodo, Odoroki, Minuki, and perhaps for Kyouya, Lamiroir, and others too. He had to be tricked in order to pull such a feat off.

He had to take a shortcut through criminal lane for the greater good. And in the end, he was rewarded for it, didn't he?

Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but wasn't the entire point of the card that it was fake? From what I understand, Kirihito slipped because he knew the card was fake, and he knew this because he was the murderer, which is how he was caught. Of course, I could have that entirely wrong.

Exactly. Again, he used Odoroki, and basically laughed in his face when Odoroki showed how upset he was later in the case. If Phoenix had shown any hesitance or guilt on using unethical means and putting Odoroki on the line and dirtying his hands without his consent, it still would have been wrong, but it would have been far easier to swallow. Instead Phoenix just comes off as reprehensible for it, to me.

And again, if Phoenix "taking a shortcut through the criminal lane for the greater good" is okay, what was wrong with Lana and Gant's actions, what was wrong with Edgeworth's actions? If Lana and Gant hadn't forged that SL-9 evidence, Joe Darke would have gotten away again. Clearly, it's for the greater good. Edgeworth was certain in his mind that everyone he was prosecuting was guilty. Clearly, his manipulating evidence and testimonies was fine, he was putting criminals away and off the streets, it was a shortcut to the greater good!

I find this to be an incredibly terrifying mindset. If this is how Phoenix thinks now, what's going to stop him from "taking a shortcut" every other time he's "sure" that someone else committed the murder? It's for the greater good, right? What if he had tampered evidence to ensure Adrian's guilt in 2-4 when he was certain she was the killer, and walked away happy with his "good results" of convicting a murderer, freeing his client, and saving Maya? Phoenix gets to decide arbitrarily outside of the system who's a murderer and who isn't, now?

It doesn't matter if it had good results. It was the wrong thing to do, it was an incredibly selfish thing to do, and if he had been unlucky and gotten caught, it would have been Odoroki taking the fall. But that, apparently, didn't stop this Phoenix.

I think you're letting your like of Nick to overshadow the point that we're not supposed to swallow it. We're supposed to be on Orodoki's side, and I'm glad Orodoki punched him. He certainly needed it. His life got screwed up but instead of being like Edgey and sort himself, he did a Godot and ended up like Gant.

I suppose I'm a sucker for turnabouts. If Nick didn't become reprihensible, we wouldn't care about him being cleared at the end because he'd learn nothing.

One thing- could anyone explain what was said during the post-trial conversation in 4-1? I didn't really understand it and that's probably why I put too much faith into Phoenix at least having a little bit of his old self left. Jeez- and he plans to become a lawyer again. Nope- it's time for Phoenix to step down if he really did push forged evidence on someone else without even having any regret for it.

...First of all: What Lana did was indeed NOT good, because even if Darke was a murderer, a dangerous one, the true guilty faction was Gant. Later on, she accepted her punishment, because she knew she did wrong.
Gant's doings were CRIMINAL, for criminal reasons, as he wanted power.
Edgeworth's doings are wrong, because he was fooling himself all along, and he knew there was a chance he was putting an innocent on the chair.
What Adrian did wasn't good either, because, even if Matt was to blame for hiring deKiller, she didn't frame him because of that. She framed him on personal accounts, being this a criminal action, and for that reason she accepted her punishment.

However, what Phoenix did is unethical, yes, but it wasn't wrong. Because, in the end, he knew what had happened. He knew what could set the whole thing off and reveal the truth. And even if he didn't know, he could have jumped in to save Odoroki by going "I handed that evidence in" and taking the rightful blame if something went wrong. After all, Phoenix IS responsible for Odo.

He just needed to dirty his hands. He wasn't doing anything criminal per se, even if the methods used were wrong. But if he hadn't jumped the gun, the case would have remained unsolved, or he would have gotten the Guilty verdict. Thus diminishing the chance of catching the real guilty faction.

I havn't got into that part of the translation yet...but basically Naruhodo invited Odoroko to his office, but mentioned that he no longer qualify to stand in court as a defense attorney, then cut off the topic to ask if Odoroki felt anything was faked during the trial, and Odoroki said he felt the blooded Ace was faked. Naruhodo admitted that he forged this card, because the real card was taken by the criminal, so only the real killer could realize that was a fake card.

Odoroki said a lawyer can not do this, but Naruhodo said " I' m no longer a lawyer." This gave Odoroki an impression that 7 years ago Naruhodo did forge evidence and got his badge revoked. Naruhodo told him "now, it does not matter any more. It's time for your story to begin." Which left Odoroki speechless. After that Odoroki supposed yelled at him with Take That ...so I guess this is where the mentioned punch goes? Naruhodo smiled and walked out with good-bye.

That's about all the conversation part in the end of 4-1.

To me it was a 50-50, as Naruhodo said himself, Garyuu had all his rights to point out that it was a fake, but for obvious reasons, he could not do it. No matter the card was faked or real, Garyuu was meant to be convicted. The card served as a bait...not the final evidence, the final evidence was that bottle with 5 of the Hearts inside. However for Odoroki this was way too risky and illegal and that is why he was speechless in the end.

But I have to point out, based on Evidence Law introduced in 1-5, Odoroki should not take that card as evidence in the first place. He bears his own fault if that card was to be pointed out by Garyuu as a fake. Odoroki was a pawn in this through and through, first for Garyuu, later for Naruhodo...either way he would end up being cheated.

The entire Case 1 was there to build up a semi-false image of Naruhodo and cause people to think of the obvious on the 7-yr-old case. A bit of over-done maybe, but don't compare him to Gant, Gant went as far as commiting capital crimes to forge evidence - he killed Marshall and Goodman.

Evidence law doesn't really have a place, even in GS4. I mean, if it did, it would have come up in 4-2 obviously.

As for the punch, it comes up after another bit regarding the locket (that I find rather creepy in retrospect)--I'm pretty sure--and Odoroki doesn't say "Take that", Phoenix tells him that's what he would have said if he'd been punching someone.

Those are minor issues, but the point is that Odoroki obviously felt completely betrayed by Phoenix. And for good reason. Yes, it was a set up to make us believe that Phoenix would be capable of forging evidence seven years ago, but that's pointless in the long run because even if he didn't seven years ago, he does it with no qualms NOW.

He does have an excuse: no longer a lawyer. Like I said, it is totally up to you to evaluate his moral at this point. Yes, he used Odoroki and let him bear such a huge risk, but to me it does not matter that much, because all I care is a good story.

But the game leaves off with him planning to become one again.

That raise a fun question -what will he do in the future? (Which I doubt we will get the chance to see much. Poor Odoroki...bad enough he had to face him most of the times in this one.) Judging from that, the makers of the game don't think he has a big problem, unlike a few of us here. (Asian cultures don't take gray area as seriously as western cultures do, and none of my friends had problems with his change, so I guess none of the makers had either.)

One ironic fact is that although he used the illegal way this time, he did find out the truth. Can't wait for Edgeworth to comment on it.

Ok...admittedly, I haven't played the game. I'm working off of spoilers here.

While Phoenix did seem to use forged evidence here...I think it was done in a way that was a little more forgivable than Gant/Lana, and Adrian.

One key difference between those situations and Phoenix seems to be this: Phoenix let the guilty party hang himself. Phoenix used fake evidence...but not for the purpose of replacing the lack of real evidence. Instead, he uses it as a logical trap (somewhat similar to what he did to Gant at the end of 1-5), luring Kirihito into making a slip up and admitting something that only a person at the crime scene would know. In other words, he played a hard bluff in order to get Garyuu to admit to being at the scene.

And while it would have been bad for Odoroki, it seems like Phoenix lets the onus of blame lay on himself...and this gives Odoroki plausible denial as far as the evidence, which Phoenix didn't have 7 years ago. The assumption was that Phoenix purposely used false evidence then thanks to Kirihito's trap. Here, Phoenix admits that he himself provided the false evidence, and didn't tell Orodoki it was false, so Odo again has plausible deniability. It's playing fast and loose with the rules with risky consequences, but I don't think he was as reckless with Odoroki's career as some are making it out to be. The only question is why the need for it.

Perhaps Phoenix felt that if Garyuu wasn't caught then and there, he could have used Masaka as his scapegoat, let her take the fall, and escape. Even if new evidence was brought up later, they HAD the 'killer'. It'd be hard to revisit the case and admit that the killer they had before was wrong. This, I feel, might have been even worse for Odoroki's career if it came to light than what DID happen. Because then it'd be the BAD END of 2-4 for Odoroki: he put away someone innocent of murder. Even if he didn't prosecute her case specifically, his actions would have led to her prosecution and conviction.

Phoenix, I feel, thought this out well, and I think he did it in a way that minimized the risk for Odoroki.

Again, though I could be wrong, I haven't played the game, so I'm working off the spoilers I've read on the board to piece things together.

The problem with your idea is that Phoenix doesn't put the onus on himself. Phoenix only admits the evidence was faked after the trial was over. He didn't hand it to Odoroki himself, he used his fifteen year old daughter as a buffer.

When Odoroki confronts him about it, Phoenix is unapologetic over the impact of his actions on Odoroki and self-pitying.

There is a reason the makers had Odoroki punch Phoenix in the face; he deserved it.

It's not really fake evidence in the literal sense because it isn't proof in itself that Kirihito did it, it's a trap that causes Kirihito to let slip that he did it. Like Kryptik said, it's a lot like how the cloth was used in 1-5 against Gant - the cloth itself could not prove who the murderer was, being faked, but what Gant said about the cloth made him be found guilty. It's the same thing here - the card itself didn't prove who the murderer was, but what Garyuu said about the card made him be found guilty. The only difference is, Gant faked the cloth to pin the blame on Ema, while Phoenix faked the card to make Kirihito trip up. I guess it depends on if you think the entire idea of faking evidence is wrong, whatever the reason, or if there are certain circumstances in which it is acceptable.

There's a ton of stuff in 1-5 that parallels with GS4, probably intentionally.

There are several key differences.

1. The cloth was not forged evidence. Phoenix didn't slap a couple of prints on Neil's jacket to make Gant slip up.
2. It was Phoenix's own trial. If Phoenix wants to take those risks, he is more than allowed. Manipulating someone else into doing it for him when he knows they wouldn't have wanted to is something completely different.

You can't ignore Odoroki's feelings in this. The fact that Phoenix used someone else without consent is what changes this from a "hah, good trick!" ala 3-3 into something wrong.