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Phoenix's Change in Personality
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Author:  musouka [ Thu May 24, 2007 10:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phoenix's Change in Personality

El Huesudo II wrote:
Well, it was probably self-satisfaction, yes. But perhaps he thought of the greater good, you know.


Since when has Phoenix thought of "the greater good"? His motivations have always been personal--sometimes to the point of being selfish. He didn't save Edgeworth because Edgeworth could possibly be harming innocent people, he saved him because Edgeworth was important to him. In 2-4, his overwelming concern was with Maya's safety.

Let's not pretend Phoenix is some sort of superhero. He's not and he never has been. He's never been the type to use his loved ones for the "greater good"--until GS4 I guess. This Phoenix..."Maya, I need you to object for me so I can keep this trial going on and save Edgeworth" or "Edgeworth, plead guilty to your father's murder! It's the only way we can nail von Karma!"

EDIT: Oh wait, that's terribly out of character for GS4-Phoenix. He'd find a way to get them to do it without asking. That might let them know what they're in for. Sal

Author:  Croik [ Thu May 24, 2007 11:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phoenix's Change in Personality

Mehhhhhh let's not bring Godot into this. Phoenix is a jerk but at least he's not dumb. Godot

Maybe Phoenix wasn't out to save the world by getting Kirihito behind bars, but it certainly saved his own neck. He wanted Kirihito to pay for his crimes--ALL of them--and he succeeded. He knew the risks, and Minuki probably did, too (Phoenix had to know that if he was caught passing off the evidence to Odoroki, his case would be over instantly and he'd be declared guilty. And there's no way he would have let them blame Minuki for doing what he told her. I don't think even PW court would punish her for doing what her father instructed, if Phoenix insisted she didn't know what it was for).

Author:  musouka [ Thu May 24, 2007 11:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phoenix's Change in Personality

The only difference between Godot and Phoenix is that Phoenix's stupid plan worked. Sal Luckily, Kirihito-the-suposedly-awesome-defense-attorney forgot every lick of common sense (and evidence law) when it came to fighting back against the ridiculously suspicious ace.

As for risk to Minuki, if Phoenix was willing to take all the blame himself, why even go through her as a third party unless he was deliberately using her as a smokescreen. No, I don't think he would have let them cart her off to jail either, but it's still an incredibly selfish move to use her like that, and one that doesn't speak much of his boundless love for her, IMO.

I'm just thinking back to the emphasis Phoenix puts on why Odoroki is important to him--Odoroki's powers. I'm thinking about how he used Minuki like a living lie detector to make a living when he had other options. And then I think back to all the ways love was expressed in the previous games. Was there any indication that Phoenix was risking something for them? If there was, I missed it.

Words aren't enough if I don't buy the actions behind them.

Author:  Croik [ Fri May 25, 2007 12:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phoenix's Change in Personality

musouka wrote:
As for risk to Minuki, if Phoenix was willing to take all the blame himself, why even go through her as a third party unless he was deliberately using her as a smokescreen. No, I don't think he would have let them cart her off to jail either, but it's still an incredibly selfish move to use her like that, and one that doesn't speak much of his boundless love for her, IMO.


He was arrested at the restaurant. If he'd had the ace on him then, it would have been entered into evidence and he'd have no chance of cornering Kirihito in court. He had to pass it off to someone for his plan to work.

I still see GS4 as a "part one," with plenty of space left to grow and develop. It had something the other games did not, and that's the fairly solid knowledge that a sequel was going to follow. Not all the relationships are as deep and dramatic as they were in GS1, but I kind of liked the subtlety, and I'm looking forward to see what happens in GS5. I think that's where we'll really start to see Odoroki take off, and know for sure if Phoenix's ethics are bent for good or if it was mostly because of Kirihito.

...Come to think of it, that's another thing I would have liked to know more about: just what did Kirihito and Phoenix talk about for SEVEN YEARS? It seems like such a strange relationship, especially for someone like Phoenix.

And not in a yaoi way. Detective Gumshoe

Author:  musouka [ Fri May 25, 2007 12:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phoenix's Change in Personality

Croik wrote:
He was arrested at the restaurant. If he'd had the ace on him then, it would have been entered into evidence and he'd have no chance of cornering Kirihito in court. He had to pass it off to someone for his plan to work.


And, again, it was still using his fifteen year old daughter to save his own ass. Can you imagine Phoenix ASKING Pearl or Maya to risk themselves and pass off forged evidence for him? And they're just his friends. Minuki is his daughter; he is responsible for taking care of her. If she's another cog in his master plan for getting Kirihito, then, again, I don't see much "love" there.

There have been times when the situation has been dire, impossibly so. Phoenix still didn't use his loved ones in the way he did Odoroki and Minuki.

Author:  BassForever [ Fri May 25, 2007 12:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phoenix's Change in Personality

Quote:
Since when has Phoenix thought of "the greater good"? His motivations have always been personal--sometimes to the point of being selfish. He didn't save Edgeworth because Edgeworth could possibly be harming innocent people, he saved him because Edgeworth was important to him. In 2-4, his overwelming concern was with Maya's safety.

Let's not pretend Phoenix is some sort of superhero. He's not and he never has been. He's never been the type to use his loved ones for the "greater good"--until GS4 I guess. This Phoenix..."Maya, I need you to object for me so I can keep this trial going on and save Edgeworth" or "Edgeworth, plead guilty to your father's murder! It's the only way we can nail von Karma!"

Part of Phoenix's character is that he believes that his clients are innocent 100%. Isn't that why he does so many "charity" cases thoughout the original series? His actions in GS4 are similar to Lana's from GS1-5, he knew the man was guilty so he made up evidence he knew had to exist somewhere.

Also remember GS2-4, Phoenix almost
Spoiler:
Lets Maya get killed by De Killer to make sure Matt got the guilty verdict he deserved. Now I know there is now way to prove which choice PW would make, but I always assumed it was that one.

Author:  musouka [ Fri May 25, 2007 12:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phoenix's Change in Personality

BassForever wrote:
Part of Phoenix's character is that he believes that his clients are innocent 100%. Isn't that why he does so many "charity" cases thoughout the original series?


This has absolutely nothing to do with the "greater good", though. Phoenix isn't a bad guy, he does want to save his clients. But his motivations for his actions almost always stem from personal feelings for his friends. He wasn't willing to risk Maya's death for the "greater good" in 2-4. Once he found out Matt was guilty, the greater good would have been served by putting the killer behind bars and hoping Maya made it out okay somehow, but he held out until it was possible to do both.

Author:  BassForever [ Fri May 25, 2007 12:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phoenix's Change in Personality

musouka wrote:
BassForever wrote:
Part of Phoenix's character is that he believes that his clients are innocent 100%. Isn't that why he does so many "charity" cases thoughout the original series?


This has absolutely nothing to do with the "greater good", though. Phoenix isn't a bad guy, he does want to save his clients. But his motivations for his actions almost always stem from personal feelings for his friends. He wasn't willing to risk Maya's death for the "greater good" in 2-4. Once he found out Matt was guilty, the greater good would have been served by putting the killer behind bars and hoping Maya made it out okay somehow, but he held out until it was possible to do both.

Is that now what Edgeworth said to Phoenix in 2-4? He's not a hero, he's only human. Other then 2-4 which he took the case to save Maya (and I don't know about 3-2 though 3-5 cause I have yet to play them) but not all his cases stem from personal feelings for his friends. Lets go though the cases quickly

1-1: Yep does it for his friend Larry
1-2: Maya's not really his friend at the time
1-3: Maya forces him to take that case
1-4: Phoenix wanted to take the case, but Edgeworth refused at first
1-5: Phoenix took that case to defend Lana for Ema who he hardly knew
2-1: Seems like he took that case because he wanted to prove Maggy innocent
2-2: Did it to protect his friend Maya
2-3: Maya forced him to again
2-4: Took the case
Spoiler:
to protect Maya

Spoiler:
Flash Back case in 4-4, he took that because he won a poker game


So he really took 4/10 cases to protect his friend. You almost make it sound like all Phoenix wants is a perfect win Records ala Franziska and Edgy .

Author:  musouka [ Fri May 25, 2007 12:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phoenix's Change in Personality

BassForever wrote:
1-1: Yep does it for his friend Larry
1-2: Maya's not really his friend at the time
1-3: Maya forces him to take that case
1-4: Phoenix wanted to take the case, but Edgeworth refused at first
1-5: Phoenix took that case to defend Lana for Ema who he hardly knew
2-1: Seems like he took that case because he wanted to prove Maggy innocent
2-2: Did it to protect his friend Maya
2-3: Maya forced him to again
2-4: Took the case
Spoiler:
to protect Maya

Spoiler:
Flash Back case in 4-4, he took that because he won a poker game


So he really took 4/10 cases to protect his friend. You almost make it sound like all Phoenix wants is a perfect win Records ala Franziska and Edgy .


1-2: Maya is the sister of his mentor, who just got murdered. There are obvious personal reasons.
1-3: Edgeworth was his friend, took it to protect him.
1-5: Took the case because Ema SPECIFICALLY reminded him of Maya, another personal reason.

That ups the score to 7 out of 10.

3-2: Takes of his own free will.
3-3: Takes because Gumshoe made him.
3-5: Takes because of Ayame, personal reason.

Ups the score to 8 out of 13. A majority. And if you add in him taking the cases Maya/Gumshoe asked him to, as a friend, it takes us to 10 out of 13.

Author:  BassForever [ Fri May 25, 2007 1:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phoenix's Change in Personality

When you look at it that way I guess your right, it does seem like he takes his cases for personal reasons.

Author:  Croik [ Fri May 25, 2007 3:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phoenix's Change in Personality

musouka wrote:
3-2: Takes of his own free will.


Not wanting to take Yuusaku's case is a physical impossibility. Who could resist that delicious delicious cinnabun hair. Mareka

Author:  CantFaketheFunk [ Fri May 25, 2007 4:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phoenix's Change in Personality

The question, Croik...


Does it SMELL like fresh cinnabuns?

In which case, he would have no chance to resist whatsoever.

....someone needs to draw Phoenix gnawing on Yuusaku's hair >.>

Author:  Yuu-chan [ Fri May 25, 2007 9:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phoenix's Change in Personality

....I'm up to the challenge.
Besides. 3-2 is such an awesome case~

Author:  CantFaketheFunk [ Fri May 25, 2007 12:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phoenix's Change in Personality

Will be holding you to this, Yuu :P

Author:  BassForever [ Fri May 25, 2007 7:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phoenix's Change in Personality

Umm, not to ask for too many spoilers (or to get a bit off topic) but is 3-2 simply awsome because of the cinnamon roll hair cut or because the case and how it is solved is just awsome (and they introduce Godot as well).

Author:  Croik [ Fri May 25, 2007 7:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phoenix's Change in Personality

3-2 is pretty awesome all around. It's one of my favorite cases (definately my favorite from GS3).

Author:  Tomoshibi Amatsu [ Fri May 25, 2007 10:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phoenix's Change in Personality

CantFaketheFunk wrote:
The question, Croik...


Does it SMELL like fresh cinnabuns?

In which case, he would have no chance to resist whatsoever.

....someone needs to draw Phoenix gnawing on Yuusaku's hair >.>


or at least Maya doing it.

Mmmm cinnabuns...

Author:  Yuu-chan [ Fri May 25, 2007 11:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phoenix's Change in Personality

Image MSN DOODLE FTW.

Author:  Croik [ Sat May 26, 2007 12:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phoenix's Change in Personality

lol, that's so adorable <3

Author:  Yuu-chan [ Sat May 26, 2007 12:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phoenix's Change in Personality

Hee. <3 Thanks~

Author:  CantFaketheFunk [ Sat May 26, 2007 12:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phoenix's Change in Personality

Yuu wins!

Author:  BassForever [ Sat May 26, 2007 1:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phoenix's Change in Personality

Nice drawing for MSN doodle : D

Author:  Yuu-chan [ Mon May 28, 2007 4:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phoenix's Change in Personality

I think I'll attempt Maya doing it......OR NO WAIT. Nick AND Maya gnawing on opposite ends....xD

Author:  Tomoshibi Amatsu [ Wed May 30, 2007 1:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phoenix's Change in Personality

Do it. After all Maya is a bottomless pit and needs her food. XD

Author:  Unisock [ Wed May 30, 2007 9:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phoenix's Change in Personality

I like how this topic went from a discussion of ethics in a video game to eating hair. Yumilicious!

Author:  jamar [ Thu May 31, 2007 12:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phoenix's Change in Personality

Oh, but Yuusaku's cinnabuns are more than hair, I'm almost sure of it.

Author:  Yuu-chan [ Thu May 31, 2007 1:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phoenix's Change in Personality

Image
=o

Author:  Slob_Attorney [ Thu May 31, 2007 1:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phoenix's Change in Personality

I'm rather dissapointed by it...

Author:  Slob_Attorney [ Thu May 31, 2007 1:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phoenix's Change in Personality

Quote:
But you could also say that Minuki's character is such that she is very poor judge of character, and has no problem declaring someone family after a very short time. She lost her mother at a very young age and grew up as an entertainer, after all--she's used to putting on a good face and making others happy. Her eagerness to make friends and keep them isn't that surprising.

I'm sure there are a lot of subtle character inflections you can pull out of a personality like that, but I'd rather wait for her inevitable arrest in GS5 before judging her any more than that. :sal:


Have you heard of Torhu Honda from "Fuits Basket"?
Minuki is nothing compared to her...

Author:  Raven Darkheart [ Thu May 31, 2007 2:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phoenix's Change in Personality

Serene_Polaris wrote:
Quote:
But you could also say that Minuki's character is such that she is very poor judge of character, and has no problem declaring someone family after a very short time. She lost her mother at a very young age and grew up as an entertainer, after all--she's used to putting on a good face and making others happy. Her eagerness to make friends and keep them isn't that surprising.

I'm sure there are a lot of subtle character inflections you can pull out of a personality like that, but I'd rather wait for her inevitable arrest in GS5 before judging her any more than that. :sal:


Have you heard of Torhu Honda from "Fuits Basket"?
Minuki is nothing compared to her...


haha tohru was pretty bad. minuki dosent look that bad compared to her

Author:  Tomoshibi Amatsu [ Mon Jun 04, 2007 1:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phoenix's Change in Personality

jamar wrote:
Oh, but Yuusaku's cinnabuns are more than hair, I'm almost sure of it.


Of course. Her hair could end world hunger.

Author:  Guess_Who [ Mon Jun 04, 2007 2:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phoenix's Change in Personality

Her?

lol wut

Author:  IZSBHR [ Mon Jun 04, 2007 3:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phoenix's Change in Personality

The following post might will sound crazy, but bear with me:

Essentially, Phoenix is the same person, who, IMO, actually did the right thing. He deserved to get punched and he knew it. The only difference between GS1-3 Phoenix and GS4 Phoenix is that he's not the one doing the cases. Therefore, he can afford to be cynical. His thoughts have always been like that, but never displayed on the outside, because he had a job to do. In this game, he essentially WANTED a job to do. It may not seem like the Phoenix we know, but it is. He's just trying to correct the actions of a man, and sometimes you have to do it differently then you want to. Also, I don't think he WANTED to hand over fake evidence. He felt he had too. Although I get the feeling he planned for it to be revealed as fake, because of this line:

"The only one who can prove it's fake is the killer himself."

In other words, I believe he was counting on Kirihoto trying to prove it was fake and revealing himself in the process.

As for him and Minuki, he isn't a bad parent. He took good care of her for over 7 years, no?

Conclusion: Same Phoenix, different environment. Get him his job back and he'll act the same.

P.S. Yuusaku's a girl. I don't care WHAT the writers say, Yuusaku is a girl.

Author:  Tomoshibi Amatsu [ Mon Jun 04, 2007 3:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phoenix's Change in Personality

Guess_Who wrote:
Her?

lol wut


Wow... I feel awkward.

Author:  El Huesudo II [ Mon Jun 04, 2007 8:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phoenix's Change in Personality

I still say Yuu-CHAN is a girl and Mareka is teh lesbian with HER. And nobody can deny that! NOBODY DAMMIT! lol jk

Spoiler:
Besides, if Phoenix didn't care about people, he'd have ignored the fact that Adrian wasn't exactly confessing in GS2-4. Add to the fact that he decided to dismiss his personal wishes to go the extra length and prevent Adrian from being convicted right there.

Author:  Tomoshibi Amatsu [ Tue Jun 05, 2007 9:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phoenix's Change in Personality

Considering that Phoenix always goes the extra mile for people even Minuki. I don't see why people would say his personality is drastically different now. He's the same Phoenix except more badass.

Author:  Croik [ Tue Jun 05, 2007 10:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phoenix's Change in Personality

If nothing else, I still say Hobohodo is a definate improvement over sobbing baby Phoenix from 3-1. >.>

Author:  El Huesudo II [ Thu Jun 07, 2007 8:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phoenix's Change in Personality

Tomoshibi Amatsu wrote:
Considering that Phoenix always goes the extra mile for people even Minuki. I don't see why people would say his personality is drastically different now. He's the same Phoenix except more badass.


He's not necessarily more badass than before. His existance in the plot itself is, however, a lot more badass, now that the writers and director can use him as a plot device and to mess with us foolish fools, driving us to make topics like this one.

Author:  BassForever [ Fri Jun 08, 2007 1:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phoenix's Change in Personality

Croik wrote:
If nothing else, I still say Hobohodo is a definate improvement over sobbing baby Phoenix from 3-1. >.>

This post speaks many truths.

Author:  kaleidostarmoon [ Sat Apr 12, 2008 4:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phoenix's Change in Personality

If any of you noticed, in the mason system (7 years later) he is still the sarcastic guy he was before his badge was removed from him. For example, when he met Zak again, he thought something along the lines of "if you thin about it, this guy kinda ruined my life) and other stuff like that. Even though he has become :hobohodo: , he is still (mostly) :phoenix: on the inside... i think. But i think it was Trucy who made him this way. Phoenix was perhaps trying to be a bit more like Trucy's father, Zak, to make her feel more at home. CLEARLY, Trucy was fine with it. And so phoenix became... :hobohodo: :hobohodo: :hobohodo: :hobohodo: :hobohodo: :hobohodo: :hobohodo: :hobohodo: :hobohodo: :hobohodo: :hobohodo: :hobohodo: .

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