I'll reiterate that I could have given Phoenix a pass if he had just expressed any guilt or concern over what he had done. "I know it was wrong to use you, but I couldn't just let Garyuu walk away." THAT would have been forgivable--in fact, I probably would have loved Phoenix all the more for it. Instead, when Odoroki calls him on it? He whines about losing his badge. His sheer self-centeredness in the whole thing is what really leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

...Maybe we haven't seen everything on Phoenix's past.

What if there's some really dark thing going on, that nobody has told us yet, that forced Phoenix to act like this?

Besides, Naruhodou had nothing to apologize about, as he made the truth be found out. He did the right thing.

Plus, he knew the punch was coming to him, and he took it like a man. That was his punishment, and he accepted it. Plus, he added his brand line humour to it: "Next time you gonna hit someone, don't forget the 'Kurae'."

Yes, he had to use Odoroki. To prevent him from being used by Kirihito right then and later on to allow crimes and illegal moves. Perhaps Phoenix thought that if Odo had to lose his job, it was way better than to later on beinng found an accomplice to his master... and end up in jail.

But knowing Garyuu as he really is, how do we know he wouldn't have done the same, or worse, to Odoroki? I suppose we can just say that at this point that this is definitely an evil thing to do, but maybe letting Garyuu go free would be even more evil (in other words, lesser of two evils). ...Maybe there should have been an option in the game to have a different plot arc by having Odoroki, say, refuse the fake evidence on a strange feeling and to go with Garyuu's method of defense (he still seemed like he wanted to defend Phoenix up until suspicion was cast on him- but he may have handed Odoroki something else that would make, say, Masaka guilty, thus following the tradition of 1-1, 2-1, and 3-1) to see how Odoroki's career would go with Garyuu as mentor.

Here's the thing about that: you don't know. And neither did Phoenix - it's basically pulling conjecture out of thin air, and there is nothing indicating anything like this ever entered Phoenix's reasoning in the first place. When he was prompted, the excuses he gave were entirely self-centered. You can reason that what Phoenix did had good results for Odoroki in the long run, but Phoenix never indicates that this was ever a real concern to him. And that is the issue here.

Additionally, I don't see anyone noting Lana forging evidence against Darke was the "lesser of two evils" - if she hadn't, a serial killer would have been let go and her little sister branded a killer - and her motives in that were arguably more justified in that than Phoenix's here. And at least she did express regret for what she had done and acknowledged how she had wronged the people involved.

Let's look at hobo-Phoenix in Case 1, did he really have any options there? Garyuu wanted him to die, otherwise he would not pin him on the crime. Odoroki was such a rookie, Garyuu was completely controlling him. He would intentionally make Odoroki losing this case and give him death sentence as a farewell gift. And if Phoneix dies, nobody will ever find out the truth , and what happened 7 years ago. So for him , it is a cheat-or-die extreme situation.

He will end up either like Phoenix-ala-7-years-ago, Lana-the-puppet, or a corrupted lawyer just like his mentor.

So because Lana has a title, she's operating on such a radically different moral scale that if she acts on the principle of "committing the lesser evil" (which is the issue being discussed here) it's unforgivable, but if Phoenix does it, it's acceptable? And again, PHOENIX may not have been an executioner of law anymore, but ODOROKI was, and it's Odoroki's hands Phoenix dirtied to accomplish his goal.

And why didn't Phoenix have the choice of "trying it another way", moreso than Lana? He couldn't turn down Garyuu as his attorney? He couldn't approach Odoroki beforehand to warn him? He couldn't, oh, I don't know, not deliberately tamper with the crime scene to cast more suspicion on himself to further weave his own trap?

Maybe it would have been better for Odoroki to lose his badge instead of continue working under Garyuu. No one can make that choice for Odoroki but Odoroki, and Phoenix took that from him for his own purposes with little more than a shrug of the shoulders and a dash of self-pity thrown in the mix.

If we can start reading scenes and characters this way, Naila, then we can literally pull any motivation out of anyone or anything. If we're allowed to assume Phoenix secretly had some concern for Odoroki amidst all this, but just happened to never give any indication of it, ever - then why can't I assume that Manfred secretly had fluffy bunny love for Miles and merely set up 1-4 as an elaborate way for him to discover the real truth about DL-6? That's the result it had, after all, and hey, Manfred doesn't always speak his mind either. There's no basis for either claim.

Would it have been that mind-bogglingly unthinkable to throw in something along the lines of "I don't have my badge anymore, and besides, it's better this way than for you to keep working under a murderer". That's all it would have taken for Phoenix to come off as something besides entirely selfish.

I don't know. Phoenix didn't seem to be particularly fearful of his own death when he refused to testify at the very beginning as to what happened in a way that would have EASILY cleared his name. Maybe that's just me, though.

You could argue either way. Even if he DID testify, you have Masaka's testimony. If they didn't match up, Payne would've called for the trial to end, and the judge probably would've agreed. Then there's his personal bitterness and revenge. He had more to gain by being quiet, and so did Orodoki.

Except Odoroki didn't know that he was working under a murderer, and Odoroki would never have found out if Phoenix hadn't faked that card. Any decisions Odoroki could have made about Kirihito prior to discovering his true nature would have been misinformed.

Point being, he never, at ANY point, acted as though he was in fear for his life. Because he never was. He wanted to get Kirihito just as much as Kirihito wanted to get him. It wasn't Phoenix acting in self defense, it was Phoenix using a chance to get Kirihito.

Point being that it was hardly the only way to inform Odoroki. Personally, I thought Kirihito knowing the colors of the cards was more suspicious than the fake evidence. In fact, it took me a little while to even understand what Phoenix was getting at when he said that only the murderer would know if the evidence was faked or not. It could have been Kirihito making an accusation based on Phoenix's "past".

He never found out beforehand because Phoenix went straight for using him as a pawn without even trying to be fair to him or consider his role in the entire plot beyond his use. And even "misinformed" (because Phoenix apparently didn't think it necessary to inform him), Odoroki had a right to decide whether he wanted to take that huge risk for himself and his own career or not, period. He has a right to decide for himself whether or not he thinks using forged evidence, is acceptable.

Phoenix was quite confident that Odoroki could turn things around by himself, provided with valid contradictions and without Garyuu's interference. This is proven in Case 4.

If he really thinks forging evidence is no big deal, he would not bring that one up to Odoroki at all. Instead he threw it in his face and letting himself get punched. The only one he lied to was probably Garyuu.

He asked for Garyuu's help, but refused to let Garyuu actually represent him. Also, the way they talked to one another before Garyuu was put on the stand makes it clear they both knew what was going on. But you are misrepresenting Raelle's argument. You said he had no choice in the matter. That is not technically true. If all he wanted to do was save himself from Kirihito's attacks, he had a number of ways of dodging them all together. If he wanted to get Kirihito, there was no way of knowing absolutely that working towards the truth in an ethical way wouldn't do the trick.

He could have told Odoroki when Odoroki began getting suspicious. Instead, all he tells him is that Odoroki is a vital part of his strategy. There is a certain point in the trial where Odoroki would have been willing to listen if Phoenix came out with the truth. He already called Kirihito to testify based on Phoenix, if I recall correctly. The entire point was that Odoroki trusted him and Phoenix betrayed that trust.

Which makes the fact that Phoenix put such risk on Odoroki's shoulders even worse. But I suppose if we agree what Phoenix did was ethically unacceptable, that's enough.

Lifting things off the victim's body? Putting the hat on the victim? Refusing to testify?

I'm sorry, but this doesn't make taking the choice away any better. Phoenix didn't even give him a chance. And again - he shows utterly no regret for his actions. Odoroki had a right to be angry.

Like I said, if he shows no regret, why create a big fat chance to get Odoroki angry and take the punch?
Odoroki probably will not figure it out if Phoenix not bringing it up first.

1. Garyuu is after him, even if he escape this case there will be another one coming;
2. The only one who could "see through" Garyuu was Odoroki, who happened to be Garyuu's apprentice. Psych-lock does not work on Garyuu. And to get Odoroki as his lawyer, he had to ask Garyuu.
3. If he was convicted in this case, revenge on Garyuu will not be possible - can not risk the chance. )

Which is better? tell him during court, which may takes a long time, or may be interrupted by the Judge as excessive talking,
or not saying anything, and let him find out on his own, and allow him to see-through Garyuu?


Plus when Garyuu yelled that card was fake... He did NOT deny it. What he did is to move the focus so nobody noticed it was in fact faked.

How could he have testified to clear his name? No one's really going to believe you if you say that one of the guys on the defense bench was the real murderer and it would probably be seen as backstabbing (and we'd be all complaining about that instead). It was safer and more sensible for him to wait until the evidence (and Odoroki) introduced the possibility that what really happened actually did.

Or tell him at one of the recesses. He had a chance to do it, don't pretend like the beginning and middle of court were his only options.

I believe the original point we were arguing was that Phoenix had "no choice" to do what he did if he wanted to save his life. The fact was that doing these things and not testifying cast more danger on his own life, because that's not what Phoenix was concerned with. He was concerned with getting Garyuu. And he made the choice to set things up, choosing to put more risk on his life, to acheive that.

Sorry, I really did not see this as a sign of guilt or regret - he didn't seem to see the punch coming, and the smug attitude and self-centered comments otherwise sort of cast doubt for me on any benevolent intentions he had in, er, getting punched. But I suppose opinions will vary on that.

Which is better? Being honest with Odoroki and not using him as a pawn is better, of course. Not manipulating Odoroki into taking ridiculous risk upon himself because he trusted you is better. Using Odoroki got faster, more assured results. But it was wrong.

And the key word in this is the 'may' - doing things the other way may have gone wrong, and Phoenix might have been screwed over for it. But the same applies with Phoenix's manipulations - they MAY have also gone wrong, and if they did? Odoroki would have been going down with him. Which strikes you as the more selfish?

...First of all, NO. You can't blab in the presence of the guy who has you in his claws. Telling Odoroki straight out in a place where Kirihito could hear would have been a FAR GREATER mistake than faking evidence and setting up the crime scene.

Plus, there's the possibility that Odoroki would have stopped trusting in Naruhodou. Then Odo would have fallen into Kirihito's hands, and Kirihito would have gotten away with it.

First strike: Can't speak about it.

...The truth is, people were acting as if Kirihito was still defending. Odoroki's presence made Kirihito go backwards on his pln, however, it would have been really easy to make Masaka go off with the guilt and pursue Naruhodou later.

And there's the second strike, gentlemen: An innocent's life would have been at stake, in addition to his.

Naruhodou faked the evidence and arranged the scene, yes, because there would have been no way for Naruhodou to escape the situation Kirihito had created for him. Masaka was bent on his demise, and Kirihito was trusted.

And there'd be the third strike: The scenery was perfect and ready. He was on a lose-lose situation and nothing could save him.

Therefore, the legal way was out. Next batter, please.

Besides, nobody has considered this: The tampering was made before Odoroki had known the case was his. Odoroki didn't even get close to the scene. Who might have thought HE had done the tampering and that HE had prepared evidence? It's obvious that the only persons able to do so were the ones in the scene. Therefore, a mistake would bring a guilty sentence on... Naruhodou.

Thus protecting the innocent's life, and putting Odoroki out of danger.

So? He wasn't using anyone, or at least, he wasn't using anyone for his own benefit, but by indeed risking it himself. All he wanted was to justice be fulfilled.

Kirihito wasn't there.

I meant it as testifying. Plus, speaking in the recess would have triggered the second option: loss of trust. Phoenix wouldn't have been there as aide. And Masaka would have fallen.

No indication of that. Odoroki was already doing things based on his trust of Phoenix. It could have been as simple as reminding Odoroki that Kirihito knew the colors of the cards before they were actually mentioned, if Odoroki needed proof. As he did later while in court.

And by doing this, the writers would have made Odoroki look not as useful as an attorney. Odoroki had to shine.

Like they did in 4-2 when MINUKI was the one that pointed out the entire flaw with the placement of the panty thief? I thought we were arguing based on characterization, not what the narrative "needed" at the time. There is always a way around narrative "necessity".

And getting at Garyuu is justice deserved.

"Orginially, it should not have existed. Oozing with sin, forged evidence..."

"Oozing with sin" is the key word here. He was provoking Odoroki. He did not know what he will end up getting, but he WANTED Odoroki to get angry at him...and take his reaction as something he deserved.

was letting Odoroki taking that card from Minuki.
And this is where he deserves the punch. He took it.

He had no time to explain at all.

If was only the second half of the court-session Garyuu was suspected. Before that, he was the defendant, Garyuu was right besides Odoroki, had the chance to instruct Odoroki freely. He stood feet away, stranded in his stand, if he explain, Garyuu would hear it and stop him. Whatever he said will be public domain and everyone in court will know. He refused to testify, which directly avoided the chance for Garyuu to find out what he knows, before he can make him a suspect.

And after Garyuu was suspected, there was only one break. During that breaktime, both him and Garyuu were called by the judge to have private talks. None of them had time to show up at the lobby. This is when Minuki rushed in. And immediately following that is court session, which he was not allowed to talk privately since they have Payne, Garyuu and Judge to battle with. How could he possibly have time to explain to him (with a lot of 3rd-person text on the screen to confuse the players)?

You might also want to say maybe he can pull a Minuki ala 4-2, or to let Minuki mock a kidnapping...not possible. He was a suspect under security, Minuki wasn't even on the court as an assistant, his kidnapping is not practical and Minuki's kidnapping will not affect the court.

And I was right about when Odoroki punched Naruhodou, the timing was after the "sinned evidence talk", not after the locket talk.

I'm sorry for my mistake. I did say that I wasn't 100% clear on when it happened. (I did think it was after the locket bit, but probably because that was one of the parts that stuck in my mind because it seemed like a strange thing to bring up, since I had forgotten it until that point.) I don't think it was a major point in argument, but I apologize again.

I also apologize for mixing up the recesses. I was trying to think exactly when Garyuu began to come under suspicion, and it looks like it was later than I remembered. But I feel like this sort of clouds the issue. Even if he didn't have a chance to tell Odoroki his plan, that still doesn't change the fact that his plan was wrong to begin with.

I mean, I keep on thinking back to the fact that the scene was a parallel with what Kirihito did to him. He is paralleled with Kirihito for a reason. The game chose to have him enact his revenge in the exact same manner, using someone else as he was used. There is a VERY strong element of personal vengence to what he did. That is part of the reason it sticks in my craw so strongly. No matter how much you argue that he had no choice--and there is always a choice--the truth of the matter is that Kirihito was right. Phoenix did lie on the stand. Phoenix did forge evidence. He behaved like Kirihito in order to bring him down. I think what we should be asking is what is so different about THIS case? What makes Kirihito worth forging evidence over in a way that all the other criminals he faced weren't?

Phoenix has been in tough situations before, where doing the "right" thing has meant almost certain defeat. Hell, most of his cases are like that. So to me, it doesn't make sense to talk about the odds of winning or losing. Like Edgeworth said, getting the truth out the right way is a struggle, but it's an important one. If that's not an important part of Phoenix's character to you, that's just the way it goes.

But it is to me.

I agree with you on that one. He did it for both: truth and revenge. He did lie to Garyuu in his face to get his reaction, forged evidence and used same way to get even. That is why I called him a gray man. One stone, two birds.

Not really. Garyuu Kirihito knew the system upside down. He knew what to do to properly end the case in his favor. He was the one to tamper the scene. What Phoenix did was to mess with the tampering, to highlight what Kirihito didn't tamper, and what Kirihito wouldn't consider as important. And to make him SCREW UP XDDDDD

...Indeed. Phoenix is pursuing justice. He couldn't get the killer out of his hands, specially when an innocent's life (Masaka) was in danger. Let's remember Phoenix now operates to serve truth before anything.

Get his license revoked and receiving an attack from someone he cared about?

Phoenix did not get his license revoked for what he did in 4-1. Please don't confuse the subject. He plans on becoming a lawyer again, despite the methods he's adopted, at the end of the game.

In the entire "did he have a choice?" argument going back and forth, people have been arguing about Phoenix's chances; how Garyuu had set him up in a bad way, how if he hadn't done what he had done the truth may not have come out and things would have been even worse; outlining all the ways the theoretical alternate plans could have ended in disaster and brushing aside the fact that the plan he DID enact was also incredibly risky, simply because he was lucky enough that it worked.

This doesn't erase the fact that he had a choice, and he chose to resort to the ruthless, unethical route to get himself out of the situation. And that choice was motivated at least partially by vengeance.

Yes, Phoenix was in a bad situation. Garyuu had set him up and, at the beginning, had his own attorney under his thumb. Yes, fabricating evidence, setting up the crime scene, and manipulating Odoroki minimalized the danger of those nasty coulds, mights, and ifs that were, to be fair, threatening his life.

And?

This is nothing that hasn't happened to Phoenix before. In 1-2, Phoenix was put in the position of fighting for his life again in an unfair situation. Redd White had influence over the entire court, including the judge. von Karma was a prosecutor who had made a sport out of crushing defense attorneys for forty years, and could also control the judge. Phoenix worked out the truth before stepping into court in those cases as well. Would it have been acceptable for him to fake evidence then in order to uncover it, in the face of his ridiculous opposition and his minimal to nonexistent chances of success?

It might be just me. I have a hard time buying that Phoenix's methods were acceptable simply because he got lucky this time and they worked. Whether you think Lana's title somehow changes everything or not, we have had characters in the past games performing similar actions in she and Adrian. Even if they had worked, even if Adrian's tampering had been what led to the conviction of a murderer, the actions still would have been wrong, from my perspective. And it's the same for Phoenix.

So sympathize with GS4 Phoenix if you like; there's nothing wrong with that. He WAS put in a bad situation. Perhaps bad enough that his actions could be arguably justified. But by arguing "he had no choice", that's... basically whitewashing his actions, removing all responsibility from his shoulders, and taking power from the script, trying to show the fact that he had changed and how he had changed. This is the setup for the entire story arc - us wondering what could have happened to affect Phoenix so that he resorts to methods now he never would have before. He has walked into situations in the past just as, if not more hopeless, than the one in 4-1, and kept his hands clean. So what changed here?

The only thing I can think of is that he had a personal grudge to settle with Garyuu. And that, to me, doesn't exactly reflect well on him.

The revoked license thing was on the case 7 years ago, when Garyuu did the thing that got Phoenix bent on revenge.

On those cases, Phoenix had the staff against him. On this case, Phoenix had both the staff AND THE EVIDENCE against him. Had he not done what he did in the crime scene, Masaka would have been convicted. (And that's just because he told Kirihito to defend him.)

We're not talking about the case seven years ago. We are talking about 4-1, and the consequences Phoenix had for his actions in 4-1. Phoenix was blameless for what happened seven years ago. We all know that.

You can argue that Phoenix was justified in not being up front about everything from the very beginning. He did have to tread carefully, it was a dangerous situation.

The part that isn't justified is from the moment Minuki hands Odoroki that card. Why? Because that is the most dangerous part for Odoroki, and also the least justified. Because that part is Phoenix's revenge. He can't just take down Kirihito, he has to do it the EXACT same way Kirihito did to him. He wants Kirihito to know this.

The card is where Phoenix throws away justification. That is where he steps over the line.

So, yes, you can make a case that part of Phoenix's actions were justified. The actions that got Kirihito on the stand. I don't see how you can justify Phoenix putting Odoroki's career in jeopardy just for the self-sastifaction of knowing Kirihito got taken down by using another person the way Phoenix himself was used, though.

And, he should have been punished for messing with the crime scene, in my opinion. Everyone else that has done that previously, has had good, emotional reasons for doing so. They took their punishments for it.

Naila, if you've been reading what we've been saying, you should know we never said anything about "letting Odoroki be his lawyer". We took issue with his manipulating Odoroki into doing something that was not only against Odoroki's own principles, but put Odoroki himself at risk.

The same way, if you want to defend him, you have to have valid reasons. His motives were not pure. You've said yourself that personal revenge was a huge factor in why Phoenix went about things the way he did, and we have to take that into account.

I think his motivation is weak. When I played through the first case without knowing what the full game was like, I was really really excited. I thought there was a good, emotional reason behind what he did. The case seven years ago did not live up to my expectations. Lana and Adrian, they messed around with crime scenes--in part--for their loved ones. I could pity and like them even if I still thought their actions were wrong.

Phoenix throws away his moral system about evidence for what? Did anything happen to his friends? No, he got fired from a job. Weak motivation. It leaves a sour taste in my mouth. I don't want to believe Phoenix falls morally, when he held strong in so many situations where his loved ones were in trouble, simply because he lost his badge.

A badge is a hunk of metal, I might feel bad for him, but I can't see it as justification for his "vengence". Not when we've had genuinely tragic characters like Lana, Adrian, Edgeworth and Godot, who have fallen because of their love for other people.