Garyuu

Please read more carefully. I was presenting that as an alternate option to the entire route of manipulating Odoroki/forging evidence Phoenix took. Neither of us said anything about whether his decision on taking Odoroki on in the first place was right or wrong, which is what you accused us of.

Not what we said. "If Phoenix forging evidence to convict a killer is okay, what was wrong with Lana forging evidence to convict a killer?" This is miles away from saying he was just like them.

How did Phoenix put Odoroki's career at stake?

And while people are saying how wrong it was for him to do that, did Phoenix KNOW that Odoroki was honest? I mean, the guy was training under the man he knows framed him, so how could he have possibly known Odoroki was not in on it too?

Look at what happened to all the other people that messed with crime scenes. They got put away in jail. Although this isn't quite the same thing (in Phoenix's case he had fake evidence passed to him- I still don't know how he knew Garyuu did it, I had to have missed something there; case 4-1 is almost an exact repeat of the flashback case minus the loss of employment) it is still a serious crime that could cost Odoroki his badge just like Phoenix. I can't seem to firmly stay on one side or the other of this issue- while I still want to believe that Phoenix had good intentions, his actions seem to say otherwise, especially risking Odoroki's career (then we'd have 2 hoboes instead of one and Garyuu going free when he really doesn't deserve such a thing). You do bring up an interesting point, though- especially since parts of the case do seem strange (especially accusing your own mentor of the crime-how do we know this wasn't an elaborate set-up?). As people can see, my optimistic (and some people would say dumb) side shows up more strongly on this issue.

Phoenix lost his badge because he unknowingly accepted fake evidence and got caught using it. In his revenge on Kirihito, he pawned fake evidence off on Odoroki in the exact same way it was done to him when he lost his badge. That is how he risked Odoroki's career.

As for how Phoenix knew Odoroki was honest, I guess Phoenix was willing to take that risk based on what he knew about Odoroki and his "ability".

Thing is...I'm wondering, was Odoroki's badge really at stake?

From what I can tell, Phoenix's disbarment came from the charge that he willfully and intentionally used false evidence as a lawyer. This is a serious charge, yes.

However...what about Edgeworth? While we know he didn't purposely use false evidence, he did use it as it was given to him, and it was later revealed that the evidence was false. So, if this is the case, why wasn't he given any charges? His problem came from the rumors and reputation it gave him, as well as his own conscience.

Odoroki, here, from what I've heard and what I can tell, was given evidence. He used it, it was contended as false. Did Odoriki know it was false? Did he use it despite possible knowledge it was false? Both those questions are imperative to whether or not he was in serious legal trouble for using it, from my stance. Again, as I stated before, there was the plausible deniability that Odoroki had as far as using the false evidence. That's just my stance on it.

Phoenix accidentally used false evidence handed to him by someone else, and it cost him his badge.

In the old case, Naruhodo could not properly explain the source of the evidence, since it was handed by Minuki and actually made by Garyuu. Urafushi had no part in the forging.

In the new case, as the defendant Naruhodo stated it was him who found the card in court, so if it was found as a fake, the first target is him forging evidence, not Odoroki. Odoroki might be charged with a "using faked evidence unknowingly" if they turn a blind eye on evidence law.

There was never any direct comparison made between Phoenix and Gant/Lana, as I explained to you earlier. No one ever said Phoenix was "just like them". I brought up their names, but for the same reason as the Manfred example we dealt with earlier: as an illustrative point. Someone attempted to defend Phoenix's actions as falling under the principle of "the ends justify the means". In order to illustrate the flaws in that reasoning, I brought up other instances throughout the series where that same principle could be invoked.

I honestly do not understand how you can say that. Forging evidence is a crime. Phoenix forged evidence. Other instances of someone else forging evidence in the series has resulted in them being sent to prison. The only reason Phoenix was not sent to prison was that he was not caught.

It's all right if you sympathize with Phoenix's reasoning. I don't, for basically the same reasons musouka discussed above, but opinions will vary. But I just cannot wrap my head around whitewashing talking points like "he isn't a criminal" and "he had no choice".

Naila, I understand that you can acknowledge Phoenix did something shady and unethical, and that's fine. I'm glad you're able to do that. Phoenix in this game is interesting, as you keep reiterating, because he is gray, and we can discuss the implications of his actions. But it is frustrating when arguments are put forth that he did nothing wrong or criminal to begin with.

Not entirely true, see: Adrian Andrews.

Adrian was sent to prison. For at least six months.

Sure as hell wasn't for too long, seeing as she popped right back up in GS3, which doesn't take place even a year after GS2.

Yes. As I said, at least half a year. Still doesn't negate the fact that everyone that has forged evidence has had to, and been willing to pay for that crime by accepting their prison sentences.

I don't recall the games ever saying she actually went to prison, could you refresh my memory here?

She showed up in jail in the credits. The last part of 2-4 concerning her also mentions it.

• 1-2, No motive was proven in why Maya or Phoenix would kill Mia; doesn't stop a judging.
• 1-2, Phoenix swiped evidence from April May's room and used it in court.
• 1-2, Edgeworth was leading the witness (Redd White) when he got him to "confess" about the wire tap.
• 1-2, The judge believes April May that it was Maya, then believes Redd White that it was Phoenix. The very obvious contradiction is never taken into serious thought.

• 1-3, Even though Will Powers is proved to have no motive, photographic evidence shows that the Steel Samurai went somewhere else than where Will could have killed Jack, that it was proven that Will was drugged during the murder time, and a very possible solution of manslaughter on Dee Vasquez's part is brought to light, Will Powers can still be found Guilty of murder.
• 1-3, Phoenix brings in the Sleeping Pill bottle without checking with the police force first, and it's classified as evidence. :)

• 1-4 and 1-5, Edgeworth and Ema were only children when they supposedly murdered the victim. In the game, multiple people claim this to be "murder." It's not "murder," it's manslaughter.
• 1-4, A very obvious point, Von Karma controls the judge and tells him what to do. Not legal in any way.
• 1-4, Manfred claims that Edgeworth simply "wiped" the fingerprints from his left hand off and replaced them with his right. Why would he do that?
• 1-4, If Phoenix claims that Gregory Edgeworth's murderer took the bullet from the crime scene, von Karma argues that the murderer would have taken the bullet from Gregory too. This is a quite disturbing accusation, as this would mean the murderer would have to dig into Gregory's dead body and leave the scene with blood all over his hands and possible DNA evidence. And it's not like they cannot prove a man died of a bullet wound even if there's no bullet.

• 1-5, Officer Meekins is arrested for a supposed murder. They could not find a body, and there was a video of Meekins being viciously attacked. Not to mention he had already been treated for his knife wound, and other officers were there to wake him from his dazed state.
• 1-5, There was no traces of blood on the knight's armor or his sword, at all. But there was still a large trace where the bodies had been moved.

• Cases 2 and 3, Franziska von Karma whipping the judge, defense, and witnesses is QUITE illegal. By PW2, you're fairly aware that the justice system allows prosecutors more power than they should have.
• 2-1, When it's proven that Maggey was framed, and that Wellington has poor eyesight, Maggey can still be found Guilty of murder.
• 2-2, If Maya Wright had been channeling Mimi Miney and Mimi committed murder, then Maya is not responsible for the murder, Mimi is. Even von Karma admits that the medium takes the form of the deceased and the deceased controls their body, so Maya could not be the murderer, Mimi would be.
• 2-2, Ini and Fransizka claim that the murder plan Phoenix proposes is too complex, and the judge agrees in a heartbeat. There are two reasons why Phoenix's idea was much stronger than "too complex": one, it leaves someone else framed for the murder, and two, it suits ALL of the evidence brought to light.
• 2-2, Fransizka withheld evidence and forced a witness (Lotta) to lie (yes lie, not saying facts about a case is lying). She wasn't penalized at all.
• 2-3, Fransizka again forced a witness (Moe) to lie. No punishment at all.
• 2-4, Phoenix and Gumshoe find evidence and use it, as does Edgeworth. Since Gumshoe at that point is no longer a member of the force, Phoenix and Edgeworth both could be accused of forging evidence.
• 2-4, In a most ironic turn, the ONLY time Phoenix's words are taken for the truth, whole truth, nothing but the truth, is when they're used against him! ("I can't believe that the assassian was his butler.")

• 3-1, After Phoenix swallows the pendant and isn't showing signs of illness, the judge completely dismisses everything Mia has proposed to be the truth. Then he goes on to say if Mia cannot prove Dahlia guilty, he'll force her to revoke her badge. This is gross favoritism of the prosecutor, mainly because the defense can have such punishments, but we never see... you know... a prosecutor put in such a situation!
• 3-2, Phoenix has to prove that Aigo is the real murderer immediately, or he will never be tried on the accusation at all. That's not how the law works.

Odoroki was simply put into a position by Phoenix that Mr. Wright had been in multiple times. And considering how many times Phoenix did swipe evidence like a detective and used it in court kind of makes you wonder how it's any different here, except that someone else is using it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is how it seems to be:
Phoenix - *hands fake evidence* Here, use this.
Odoroki - Umm... okay! TAKE THAT!
Kirihito - That's fake evidence.
Odoroki - Yes, but how do YOU know that?!

Also, you can argue that Phoenix was doing was wrong, and in a way, it was. But Odoroki was better off in the long run. He may have risked his career, but hey, with the way these cases go, he'll have to get used to that. And it was worth it to expose a true deceiver and a murder, one was using him too; it'd be like learning Mia Fey framed an innocent man to make him lose his job, and also murdered someone to frame him further.

We all hate Manfred von Karma for murdering Edgeworth's dad and then trying to frame him. Why is it that people don't like Phoenix for exposing Kirihito as the criminal and murderer he was?

Franziska forced Adrian (taking advantage of her codependency) to plead the fifth when things were getting out of control. This IS misleading, and Franziska should have been gotten contempt of court for it, if not for all the times she whipped any member of the court at any given time, EVEN THE WITNESSES AND THE JUDGE, and the fact that she rendered Phoenix unconscious ON COURT. ...Franziska wouldn't last a second in another courtroom fiction, let alone real life.

Plus, the judge himself is illegal. Sure, he makes things interesting, but someone so senile to work is unsuited for working on law.

And all Phoenix does is hand Odoroki a fake evidence piece, which instead of misleading, it practically LEADS THE WHOLE CASE TO THE TRUTH, and you're bashing him already.

Besides, it was pointed out that Phoenix said he had found the card and that he introduced it to the evidence, so Odoroki's chances of losing his job or his freedom would be nil. Phoenix would have gotten jail for both fraud and murder if it hadn't been Garyuu who pointed it out. Odoroki? Perhaps he would have gotten a slight penalty, but not the loss of his badge or jail time, as he had nothing to do with this.

I guess the question I want to ask is this is there anything of the old Phoenix left since the seven years that his badge has been taken from him?

Is he like Gant said even though he didn't say it to Phoenix.

"You're just like me, you'll find a way to take on the criminals alone. You'll see."

Or something like that. So is Phoenix more like Gant in that his motive is he'll find a way to convict the guilty criminal no matter if the way he goes about it is unethical or not. In the end he feels no remorse for his actions the ends justify the means if the bad guy wasn't caught now then surely he would have caused more damage down the line then if he wasn't like maybe Joe Drake for example.

I really don't want to believe that Nick wants to convict the guilty party even if it turns out that the accused wasn't the real criminal in the first place. That he'll go so far as to use forged evidence to get the verdict that he wants. Even though, yeah, that's what happens in this case, unfortunately.

So do you think that there is nothing of the old Phoenix Wright left? That he abandoned everything he stands for since he lost that case seven years ago and now an individual that is jaded about life and anything that he does now is only to further his own personal goals like revenge for the guy that made him lose his badge.

I never thought Phoenix was that nice of a person anyhow. The only reason he caved in in GS3-1 multiple times was because he couldn't handle all the pressure he was placed in. Not to mention he contradicted himself multiple times. Not to mention he probably actually got very few cases but accepted even fewer because he just wasn't "involved" with those cases.

We should note that in GS2-1 Phoenix accepted the case solely because he thought Maggey was innocent. But from the amnesia he suffers throughout the case we can easily tell he doesn't think very highly of others, even his friends, at all.

From GS2-4 itself I could also tell that Phoenix did not respond to pressure well, as every time a day in the case ended Phoenix was like "Maya! No.... NOOOOOOOOOO!" only to be given another chance, which is but a sad but honestly Wrightful truth.

So it's likely, that since Maya wasn't around in GS4's Flashback case, Wright had no one to go to for support (no Mia to tell him to calm down) and the pressure more than likely broke him when his badge was taken from him.

So given Wright's personality, I personally think that Odoroki's going to be misled. GREATLY misled. That passionate heart burning red may turn his reputation red as well. Odoroki fits as more of a prosecutor type to me anyhow.

It sounds kind of silly, but whenever I saw this sprite, I couldn't help but think that yes, this is still our same Phoenix:



He just looks so sweet.

We do get glimpses of Phoenix as he used to be. He still cares deeply about those close to him. He still cares about finding the truth (it took him seven years to nail Kirihito, I don't think he would have forged evidence against him if he wasn't positive Kirihito was guilty. It's not like he's running around trying to get people convicted willy nilly). He's still rather laid back and has a sarcastic sense of humor--just now, he's so laid back he's barely working, and his inner monologue has beome outright teasing. The Defense Lobby already had the "what if Phoenix spoke his thoughts out loud?" topic. Well, now we know.

He's not a hero, no. But Phoenix was never really a hero anyway. They never gave the impression that Phoenix went out and looked for cases to take because he was chomping at the bit to save innocent people from a cruel fate. There was always Maya around to haul him off his ass. But then there's Odoroki, who seems to have an honest passion for the law and his work (even after everything that happened in 4-1 he was itching to go to court at the first mention of a client, even though it was a complete stranger, in 4-2).

I hope that Odoroki fights Phoenix a little in the next game. I'd love to see him call Phoenix out on his cynicism, or take a case that Phoenix thinks he can't win. That's the kind of conflict I live for.

He better be the prosecutor. How awesome would that be? Come up ageanst The Phoenix?

When Edgeworth covered for Phoenix when he got sick trying to save Maya in case 3-5 he at least had some knowledge of how a defense attorney does his job- his dad was a defense attorney. Not so much for Phoenix.

So deeply about the two kids he supposedly now lives for that he'll use an eight-year-old little girl he kidnapped, err, "adopted" to cheat at poker in a seedy dive (and to hand over forged evidence when she's older), and her older brother as an unwitting part of his "strategy" to take down the guy that stole his badge. And then he'll be alternately smug and self-pitying about it afterwards.

And his old friends? What old friends? Oh, you mean that chick that sent him all that Tonosaman shit?

Maybe if Phoenix had been the type of guy to talk about how much he cared about Maya, then threw her in front of von Karma's taser as a human shield, I'd agree, but this Phoenix risks the "people close to him" without blinking. The game telling me "Oh, he cares about Odoroki and Minuki. No, really! We swear!" lacks any impact if he doesn't show it.

Despite the above, it's not that I can't see Phoenix in the circumstances he's in in this game. Phoenix was never a saint, as other have pointed out. He's always been sort of a selfish jerk, but in a game where I don't get the feeling a single character really cares about any other character, he doesn't exactly stand out as someone with that deep connection to his friends and loved ones.

In his mind, he was protecting Minuki from her crazy family by taking her in. It's horrible parental judgement to use Minuki for his poker, but she's good at it, there's nothing illegal involved, and it's helping support them financially. They still have a very easy and affectionate relationship in the game.

I already talked about Odoroki in another thread, and how what Phoenix did to him in the first case was callous. But I don't think Phoenix himself sees it this way. I think he honestly wants Odoroki to be a good lawyer, giving him a trial by fire the way he was tested as a rookie. He's going about it wrong, which is why I hope there's some friction between the two of them in GS5. But I think this poor judgement comes from him being too self-centered to consider the big picture, instead of an intentional desire to toy with or hurt Odoroki.

Odoroki couldn't stay under the wing of Kirihito. He'd get his "I'm perfect and what I say is the law" vibes. Which would drive him to do the exact same thing he did: killing a man just because he thought he was evil, and dragging innocents with him.