4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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Second, he's supposed to be visiting four places (twice to Krissi's cell, once to Drew Studio, and once to the Sunshine Colleseum) when he's supposed to be keep watch of the prisioners AND prepare the "game" for them to play within a day? How is this possible? It's also implied that they were there all night (evidenced by going right to the Courtroom once the "game" was done), and even still, I doubt it could all be done.
So...this has to be a paradox. Phoenix is supposed to be in two places at once, how?
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Re: 4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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Re: 4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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Spoiler:
There were tons of other examples like that which are clearly impossible unless Phoenix was a time-traveling hobo.
Re: 4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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Litral wrote:
The MASON system is something that must be accepted with a huge amount of salt and loads of suspension of disbelief... Remember how
There were tons of other examples like that which are clearly impossible unless Phoenix was a time-traveling hobo.
Spoiler:
There were tons of other examples like that which are clearly impossible unless Phoenix was a time-traveling hobo.
True, but there is a difference between that example, or using the portrait you get from Brushel to unlock Shadi's psyche-lock to show how the bracelets get into play, and this. It's possible that he may have found these certain items a different way.
HOWEVER, it can't be possible for him to visit three locations, make the game, and keep watch of the jury under twenty-four hours. It just can't be.
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Re: 4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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Re: 4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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et91 wrote:
Phoenix has the master sword. Duh
So easy, so obvious, yet so elusive.
If videogames make murderers, then guns kill people and spoons made Rosie O'Donnell fat.
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Re: 4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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DominicanZero wrote:
et91 wrote:
Phoenix has the master sword. Duh
So easy, so obvious, yet so elusive.Quoted for truth.
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Re: 4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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DominicanZero wrote:
Oh god. More Mason System shenanigans. -_-
I swear to God I'll Pistol Whip the next person that says Shenanigans. But instead of using a Pistol; I'll Whip a Hot cup of Hot Chocolate.
Anyway....... Idk, Those Psycho-locks (As Edgeworth says in GS3) on Klaiver's brother WERE different than the regular Psycho-locks.
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Re: 4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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Visiting Zak was way before 4-4 (it was before 4-1), visiting Krissy's cell was very short, so it leaves the Brushel and Valant conversations, and the editing... in 2 days.
Suppose Phoenix has a pro programmer to help, it's actually quite easy.
And God knows how many more times I have to tell this, but THERE IS NO TIME TRAVELING!
The nail polish was added to the Court Record after the first Krissy episode because Phoenix and co wanted the jury to see / play the events in that order.
It's not like Phoenix says "look, Vera, I have this nail polish with me, I bet your good luck charm is the same."
Instead, it's:
Phoenix: *examines nail polish*
Drew: Please don't touch that, it's very important for my daughter, she doesn't even let me touch it.
(later)
Phoenix: I bet this bottle right there on the table is your good luck charm. *points there*
Re: 4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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((Present Nail Polish))
Phoenix:
*TAKE THAT!*
Phoenix:
This... was what they gave
you, wasn't it?
Vera:
Ah...
Phoenix:
The same bottle's over there
on your desk.
Phoenix:
Your good luck charm... right?
So Phoenix did show Vera the nail polish he took from Kristoph's solitary confinement cell.
Now okay, you may argue that Phoenix wanted everyone to play it like that, but then how did Phoenix actually break Vera if he had no idea who gave her the bottle (since he hadn't seen it himself in Kristoph's cell)? Similarly, how could he have used Trucy's Locket, which he obtained in the first case in the game, to break Valant Gramarye seven years ago - and there are many other examples like this. And supposing he somehow managed to do all that without time traveling, why didn't he just make his game according to what really happened, instead of making himself a time-traveling hobo?
Re: 4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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Re: 4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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Litral wrote:
:/ This is the exact script taken from GameFAQs, by svedka.
((Present Nail Polish))
Phoenix:
*TAKE THAT!*
Phoenix:
This... was what they gave
you, wasn't it?
Vera:
Ah...
Phoenix:
The same bottle's over there
on your desk.
Phoenix:
Your good luck charm... right?
((Present Nail Polish))
Phoenix:
*TAKE THAT!*
Phoenix:
This... was what they gave
you, wasn't it?
Vera:
Ah...
Phoenix:
The same bottle's over there
on your desk.
Phoenix:
Your good luck charm... right?
Well, he probably spied a little on Kristoph before that part of the investigation, and he recorded that as well, but didn't include it in the MASON system because of irrelevancy. But what he recorded, was him going into a shop and buying nail polish.
So Phoenix kept that recording and showed that to Vera (at least a picture).
Re: 4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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Szabu wrote:
Litral wrote:
:/ This is the exact script taken from GameFAQs, by svedka.
((Present Nail Polish))
Phoenix:
*TAKE THAT!*
Phoenix:
This... was what they gave
you, wasn't it?
Vera:
Ah...
Phoenix:
The same bottle's over there
on your desk.
Phoenix:
Your good luck charm... right?
((Present Nail Polish))
Phoenix:
*TAKE THAT!*
Phoenix:
This... was what they gave
you, wasn't it?
Vera:
Ah...
Phoenix:
The same bottle's over there
on your desk.
Phoenix:
Your good luck charm... right?
Well, he probably spied a little on Kristoph before that part of the investigation, and he recorded that as well, but didn't include it in the MASON system because of irrelevancy. But what he recorded, was him going into a shop and buying nail polish.
So Phoenix kept that recording and showed that to Vera (at least a picture).
Then you are using a version of events that is exactly against what the MASON system said it was. That's what I meant. You have to take it with a huge grain of salt. If what you saw in the MASON system actually happened, Phoenix would be a time-traveling hobo - which is what I said.
It's not even easy to create a new version of events that explains everything. Okay, let's check out yours - why would Phoenix spy on Kristoph at all? Phoenix thought Kristoph was his great friend. His first change of mind came in the first case of the game, as he himself said. Oh, and Kristoph couldn't have just bought that at any store... the fact that the bottle was very luxurious and unique was part of the evidence against him.
Re: 4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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Szabu wrote:
Suppose Phoenix has a pro programmer to help, it's actually quite easy.
The MASON System
....is the moment Phoenix realises he is, in fact, trapped in a computer game.
Re: 4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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icer wrote:
Szabu wrote:
Suppose Phoenix has a pro programmer to help, it's actually quite easy.
The MASON System
....is the moment Phoenix realises he is, in fact, trapped in a computer game.
But even if he realizes he's trapped in a computer game, doesn't it not matter because all his lines are already typed out by the programmers and his course of action is controlled by the player, meaning he can't communicate at all with his free will?
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Re: 4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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Re: 4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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Spoiler: saving space
Kristoph:
...You suspected me then as
you still do now, don't you?
Phoenix:
...Honestly, right now, I'm
not sure what I think.
What I think is that Phoenix did suspect Kristoph at the beginning, but as he found nothing for a while, he wasn't sure, until 4-1.
And this is how it happened in my fanfic (but I don't think it really counts as an argument :).
Re: 4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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Bad Player wrote:
icer wrote:
The MASON System
....is the moment Phoenix realises he is, in fact, trapped in a computer game.
....is the moment Phoenix realises he is, in fact, trapped in a computer game.
But even if he realizes he's trapped in a computer game, doesn't it not matter because all his lines are already typed out by the programmers and his course of action is controlled by the player, meaning he can't communicate at all with his free will?
I've heard the theory that game 4 itself was the computer game Phoenix was trapped in. (Implying that he had more 'free will' in games 1-3 or they were 'real' or he simply didn't know before)? And in game 4, he spends a lot of time manipulating the player ['Apollo'] from a distance.
...the MASON System is insane. I wouldn't bother trying to prove that it's possible without 'time travel'. It's never supposed to be an accurate reflection of any possible normal in-game reality or, for that matter, what Phoenix presented to the jury. Let's just leave it at 'inexplicable weird plot device, probably when writers were running out of time.'
Re: 4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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Apollo72 wrote:
Just to note, Phoenix did not create the MASON system, it was created by the fictional ESG Studio and is (I guess) a bit like a case maker because you use it to create your own games. I also second Szabu's theory......and that's it from me!
Where does it say this? Not anywhere in the English game, that's for sure.
Re: 4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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Also, this is from the Ace Attorney Wiki: (http://aceattorney.wikia.com/wiki/MASON_System)
The MASON System is a game program published and developed by the fictional ESG Studio.
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I get it. Phoenix is trapped in the MASON System. It all makes sense now. (Now I understand why some people think the entire game happened in the MASON System.) Then he breaks the 4th wall, manipulates the player via 'Apollo', and induces the 'jurist' player to rule him innocent or guilty. We can't help him escape the MASON System though.
...This is exactly why the writers should have used a more sensible plot device.
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Re: 4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA fo shiz. 
Re: 4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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icer wrote:
*gulp* and it loads at the beginning of 4-4. Does this mean that 4-4 never happened except in the MASON System?
I get it. Phoenix is trapped in the MASON System. It all makes sense now. (Now I understand why some people think the entire game happened in the MASON System.) Then he breaks the 4th wall, manipulates the player via 'Apollo', and induces the 'jurist' player to rule him innocent or guilty. We can't help him escape the MASON System though.
...This is exactly why the writers should have used a more sensible plot device.
I get it. Phoenix is trapped in the MASON System. It all makes sense now. (Now I understand why some people think the entire game happened in the MASON System.) Then he breaks the 4th wall, manipulates the player via 'Apollo', and induces the 'jurist' player to rule him innocent or guilty. We can't help him escape the MASON System though.
...This is exactly why the writers should have used a more sensible plot device.
I'm pretty sure the MASON system was used in the intro video and not the actual case.
Though it would be awesome, I doubt it.
As for the "Short visit" to Krissi's cell, here's my response;
As I'm sure you know, the day's trial broke up around midday when Vera collapsed. He then somehow creates the program (with the help of a programmer, maybe) all the while helping with the jurists, and visiting three totally different places. To use a scale, the series takes place in Los Angles. He first goes to the prision (if he still doesn't drive that is) that is said to be in the central part of the city. He visits with Krissi, and then leaves. He then goes to either Drew Studio or the Sunshine Colloseum to meet with Spark or Valant first, then he goes to the other, and finally back to Krissi's cell.
He then has to (and I forgot this) collect the evidence to give to Apollo, as well as recreate the letter. Again, how is this all possible in less than a day? I doubt he had the whole afternoon free, with the trial and the jurists and all.
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Re: 4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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Phoenix_Apollo wrote:
As I'm sure you know, the day's trial broke up around midday when Vera collapsed. He then somehow creates the program (with the help of a programmer, maybe) all the while helping with the jurists, and visiting three totally different places.
And I think we all know that this is impossible. I don't think we're supposed to see Phoenix actually creating the MASON System in any literal sense. Maybe it's some weird 4th-wall breaker where the actual programmers of the GAME are having a play that they are allowing Phoenix to exploit a game module, but I don't think Phoenix is implied as making the MASON System program in his actual reality. MASON System is (his presentation?) to the PLAYERS which are a defacto 'jury', rather than the literal jury in the game's court system.
Rewatching the case intro... Vera collapses in it. The 'time sequence' is an utter mess.
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... or something.
It makes no sense, that's for sure.
Re: 4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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Re: 4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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But yes, I realized that the "time travel" elements necessary could have been easily produced by pheonix by other methods.
1. Find the picture on his own, might have been a more public shot, since she was famous
2. The bottle was right there in the room. He realized the connection to Kristoph when Kirstoph produced the bottle
However I disagree with several points about the mason system that people bring up.
1. It is shown to the jury.
I ask, where? I assumed, playing the game, that pheonix broke the fourth wall and was talking to the player of the video game. Pheonix has allways done this in previous games, T&T explanations of characters for example, and I see no reason why he can't now. He simply broke the fourth wall and explained an element of the game that was developed for the player by capcom.
2. It was made by pheonix and isn't a simple recording.
Why not? Like I said, it could be capcom's way of making the explanation of the events of the past more interesting.
From my understanding, phoenix simply shows a recording of past events to apollo, which capcom, to avoid boredom, redevelops into a more complex game to prevent boring the players to death. Like how the psyche-locks were meant to make investigation phases for JFA and T&T more interesting.
Re: 4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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The future will change! You've created a time paradox!
.... You can't go changing the future like that!Nick as a time travelling hobo is just another of his awesome powers xD
Bet he's mailed his Fission before too, he's capable of all sortsa crazy tricks.
There's been plotholes and contradictions before, we don't need to explain everyone of them
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Re: 4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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Please don't go down the perfume bottle route.
If you remember, there was a perfume bottle just like Kristoph on Vera's Desk in 7 YA Drew Studio.
So he DIDN'T transport evidence, he just kept the record of it.
Re: 4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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And how else would he explain everything that happened to the jurists?
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Phoenix_Apollo wrote:
Icer, that threoy is shot down because when you're listening to Phoenix "break the forth wall," you're playing as Thalassa. You're playing as a jurist. Therefore, he's talking to the jurists.
And how else would he explain everything that happened to the jurists?
And how else would he explain everything that happened to the jurists?
Which theory, exactly?
The only part where the player is 'Thalassa' is right at the end. Right at the end Phoenix talks to the actual jurists "Choose wisely. Choose well." But in a lot of other times in 4-4 he's addressing the player. It's only his final speech before the verdict that's to the in-game jurists.
The jurists have been watching the trial [on TV screens] and seeing information about the case for the last several days that we didn't see. Boring information, most likely. Things can happen which don't happen onscreen.
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icer wrote:
Phoenix_Apollo wrote:
Icer, that threoy is shot down because when you're listening to Phoenix "break the forth wall," you're playing as Thalassa. You're playing as a jurist. Therefore, he's talking to the jurists.
And how else would he explain everything that happened to the jurists?
And how else would he explain everything that happened to the jurists?
Which theory, exactly?
The only part where the player is 'Thalassa' is right at the end. Right at the end Phoenix talks to the actual jurists "Choose wisely. Choose well." But in a lot of other times in 4-4 he's addressing the player. It's only his final speech before the verdict that's to the in-game jurists.
The jurists have been watching the trial [on TV screens] and seeing information about the case for the last several days that we didn't see. Boring information, most likely. Things can happen which don't happen onscreen.
Exactly!
Re: 4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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Phoenix_Apollo wrote:
Icer, that threoy is shot down because when you're listening to Phoenix "break the forth wall," you're playing as Thalassa. You're playing as a jurist. Therefore, he's talking to the jurists.
And how else would he explain everything that happened to the jurists?
And how else would he explain everything that happened to the jurists?
1. I'd like some proof of that first statement. Its so widely believed that you're playing as Thalassa that I'd like to know why everyone thinks that. Please?
2. Doesn't Apollo, sorta... prove everything in court, while the Jurists are, you know, watching?
Re: 4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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Magnus Orion wrote:
Phoenix_Apollo wrote:
Icer, that threoy is shot down because when you're listening to Phoenix "break the forth wall," you're playing as Thalassa. You're playing as a jurist. Therefore, he's talking to the jurists.
And how else would he explain everything that happened to the jurists?
And how else would he explain everything that happened to the jurists?
1. I'd like some proof of that first statement. Its so widely believed that you're playing as Thalassa that I'd like to know why everyone thinks that. Please?
2. Doesn't Apollo, sorta... prove everything in court, while the Jurists are, you know, watching?
I don't know about your second point but as Thalassa you decide the final verdict, you control her arm while using the mason system to choose Guilty or Not Guilty. Turns out you controlled her while you used the freaky ass mason system that was always my understanding of it.
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So, yeah, especially since Phoenix is talking to the player during the opening, we have no means to determine if he was talking to the jurists or not. If he was talking to the jurists it creates a contradiction in Phoenix's ability to do things at certain rates, so we have a contradiction. That rules out this possiblity, leaving us with "he was not talking to the jurists", which contains no such contradiction.
Err... at least thats how I look at it...
Re: 4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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Magnus Orion wrote:
Phoenix_Apollo wrote:
Icer, that threoy is shot down because when you're listening to Phoenix "break the forth wall," you're playing as Thalassa. You're playing as a jurist. Therefore, he's talking to the jurists.
And how else would he explain everything that happened to the jurists?
And how else would he explain everything that happened to the jurists?
1. I'd like some proof of that first statement. Its so widely believed that you're playing as Thalassa that I'd like to know why everyone thinks that. Please?
2. Doesn't Apollo, sorta... prove everything in court, while the Jurists are, you know, watching?
Regarding the second point, that is not what I mean. I'm saying, how would PHOENIX be able to get the backstory that he apparently told "us" told to the jurists other than the MASON system?
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Whats wrong from the Jurists learning it through the court proceedings via Apollo and his proof?
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