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4-3 contradictions solved!
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A lot of people complain about how 4-3 has some ridiculous contradictions. I'm going to eliminate these one by one.
First, they arrested Machi despite the fact that he was unharmed. He should have had a dislocated shoulder from firing the murder weapon. However, there are 2 quotes from the game that destroy this assumption, both from the Judge, neither of which anyone objected to.
The first is "We must assume that the killer was adept at the weapon's use." There are 2 key words here: assume and adept. Assume speaks for itself. Adept is a bit more complicated, but basically it suggests that to avoid a dislocated shoulder requires skill, not strength. This suggestion is backed further by the other quote, which was in response to Klavier's claim that Daryan's playing was affected by his firing the revolver. "The killer might not have been holding the revolver correctly when he fired!" This pretty much confirms that the shooter's size has little to do with whether or not their shoulder is injured.
Next, how did the victim know to name the siren as a witness? The solution to this contradiction is... more contradictions! If you look at the diagram of the crime scene, you might find something suspicious. Namely, if LeTouse fell without moving, the bullets would go through the partition. This suggests that he moved before he fell. This is likely, as it wasn't the gushot itself that killed him, but the blood loss from the wound. Now, what if he saw Lamiroir's brooch fall? With our new understanding of the situation, this is possible. As he likely knew that Lamiroir would 'disappear'
Next, why didn't the victim write a description of his shooter instead of his interpol number, when he had a VERY distinguishing feature
? Well... he probably read the case files of State vs. Fey or State vs. Byrde. The defendant's name was written, but someone else was the killer. It's very easy to plant a piece of evidence like that, so he gave a clue as to the killer's motive. Only two people had that motive, but he only knew of one. Furthermore, if they didn't know he was an Interpol agent they wouldn't have given the replica a second thought. Also, Daryan didn't try to erase the writing before it was done beacuse he was off getting firecrackers. It's not like people carry firecrackers with them at all times!
Re: 4-3 contradictions solved!
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GigaHand wrote:
Next, why didn't the victim write a description of his shooter instead of his interpol number, when he had a VERY distinguishing feature ? Well... he probably read the case files of State vs. Fey or State vs. Byrde. The defendant's name was written, but someone else was the killer. It's very easy to plant a piece of evidence like that, so he gave a clue as to the killer's motive. Only two people had that motive, but he only knew of one. Furthermore, if they didn't know he was an Interpol agent they wouldn't have given the replica a second thought. Also, Daryan didn't try to erase the writing before it was done beacuse he was off getting firecrackers. It's not like people carry firecrackers with them at all times!
? Well... he probably read the case files of State vs. Fey or State vs. Byrde. The defendant's name was written, but someone else was the killer. It's very easy to plant a piece of evidence like that, so he gave a clue as to the killer's motive. Only two people had that motive, but he only knew of one. Furthermore, if they didn't know he was an Interpol agent they wouldn't have given the replica a second thought. Also, Daryan didn't try to erase the writing before it was done beacuse he was off getting firecrackers. It's not like people carry firecrackers with them at all times!> If he knew who the shooter was, he could've just told Apollo "the killer is
I don't think there that are many contradictions in 4-3... what bothers me more is that in order for the plot to work, the characters have to be complete idiots.
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Last edited by Ping' on Sat Jul 11, 2009 9:19 am, edited 2 times in total.
Re: 4-3 contradictions solved!
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Other than that, you do have some good points. I agree with most of them.
What
Re: 4-3 contradictions solved!
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OuenTobaye wrote:
About the gun, um, no. Those are quotes, but still make just as much sense as the rest of the case. A gun is a gun. No matter how you hold it, it'd still have backfire, and the weaker you are, the more damage there'd be. And unless guns are a common theme in Borginia, enough so that they let a child practice them, he'd have no skill with guns.
Other than that, you do have some good points. I agree with most of them.
Other than that, you do have some good points. I agree with most of them.
"A gun is a gun"... this is true, but depending on how you hold it, the backfire would go in a different direction (did that make sense?). Depending on how you hold it, it might do less damage. In theory, it could also be avoided by manipulating your arm just after you shoot.
And very little is known about Machi, as well as the fact that he is an international musician. He could have learned anywhere... but most likely it was before he met Lamiroir, therefore it would be in Borginia... But there's no evidence against it and that's what counts in this case.
EDIT
Ping' wrote:
GigaHand wrote:
Next, why didn't the victim write a description of his shooter instead of his interpol number, when he had a VERY distinguishing feature ? Well... he probably read the case files of State vs. Fey or State vs. Byrde. The defendant's name was written, but someone else was the killer. It's very easy to plant a piece of evidence like that, so he gave a clue as to the killer's motive. Only two people had that motive, but he only knew of one. Furthermore, if they didn't know he was an Interpol agent they wouldn't have given the replica a second thought. Also, Daryan didn't try to erase the writing before it was done beacuse he was off getting firecrackers. It's not like people carry firecrackers with them at all times!
? Well... he probably read the case files of State vs. Fey or State vs. Byrde. The defendant's name was written, but someone else was the killer. It's very easy to plant a piece of evidence like that, so he gave a clue as to the killer's motive. Only two people had that motive, but he only knew of one. Furthermore, if they didn't know he was an Interpol agent they wouldn't have given the replica a second thought. Also, Daryan didn't try to erase the writing before it was done beacuse he was off getting firecrackers. It's not like people carry firecrackers with them at all times!> If he knew who the shooter was, he could've just told Apollo "the killer is
I don't think there that are many contradictions in 4-3... what bothers me more is that in order for the plot to work, the characters have to be complete idiots.
It hardly warrants saying that wouldn't go over well in court.
Re: 4-3 contradictions solved!
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Ping' wrote:
GigaHand wrote:
Next, why didn't the victim write a description of his shooter instead of his interpol number, when he had a VERY distinguishing feature ? Well... he probably read the case files of State vs. Fey or State vs. Byrde. The defendant's name was written, but someone else was the killer. It's very easy to plant a piece of evidence like that, so he gave a clue as to the killer's motive. Only two people had that motive, but he only knew of one. Furthermore, if they didn't know he was an Interpol agent they wouldn't have given the replica a second thought. Also, Daryan didn't try to erase the writing before it was done beacuse he was off getting firecrackers. It's not like people carry firecrackers with them at all times!
? Well... he probably read the case files of State vs. Fey or State vs. Byrde. The defendant's name was written, but someone else was the killer. It's very easy to plant a piece of evidence like that, so he gave a clue as to the killer's motive. Only two people had that motive, but he only knew of one. Furthermore, if they didn't know he was an Interpol agent they wouldn't have given the replica a second thought. Also, Daryan didn't try to erase the writing before it was done beacuse he was off getting firecrackers. It's not like people carry firecrackers with them at all times!> If he knew who the shooter was, he could've just told Apollo "the killer is
I don't think there that are many contradictions in 4-3... what bothers me more is that in order for the plot to work, the characters have to be complete idiots.
Incoming wall of text.
You also have to consider that the games as a whole refer little to what characters look like. You have to consider that in both of his disguises no one recognised Tigre, despite his skin being red the first thing people would notice. Similarly, no one references how ridiculous Daryan's hair is, which Letouse could have told Apollo about to save him a whole lot of trouble.
I think it points to the cases being written when character design was only in it's most basic stages, ie. Tigre is just some tough guy who looks like Phoenix, Daryan is just a young, attractive band member. Looking at the characters in concept while ignoring their actual appearance gets rid of quite a few of contradictions, such as this one, Tigre and the whole spirit channeling (ie. People thinking Pearl is the one channeling, despite the fact that in game channeled people retain the channeler's hair and eye colours) and the whole twin swap hair colour fiasco of 3-5.
Re: 4-3 contradictions solved!
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GigaHand wrote:
Ping' wrote:
GigaHand wrote:
Next, why didn't the victim write a description of his shooter instead of his interpol number, when he had a VERY distinguishing feature ? Well... he probably read the case files of State vs. Fey or State vs. Byrde. The defendant's name was written, but someone else was the killer. It's very easy to plant a piece of evidence like that, so he gave a clue as to the killer's motive. Only two people had that motive, but he only knew of one. Furthermore, if they didn't know he was an Interpol agent they wouldn't have given the replica a second thought. Also, Daryan didn't try to erase the writing before it was done beacuse he was off getting firecrackers. It's not like people carry firecrackers with them at all times!
? Well... he probably read the case files of State vs. Fey or State vs. Byrde. The defendant's name was written, but someone else was the killer. It's very easy to plant a piece of evidence like that, so he gave a clue as to the killer's motive. Only two people had that motive, but he only knew of one. Furthermore, if they didn't know he was an Interpol agent they wouldn't have given the replica a second thought. Also, Daryan didn't try to erase the writing before it was done beacuse he was off getting firecrackers. It's not like people carry firecrackers with them at all times!> If he knew who the shooter was, he could've just told Apollo "the killer is
I don't think there that are many contradictions in 4-3... what bothers me more is that in order for the plot to work, the characters have to be complete idiots.
It hardly warrants saying that wouldn't go over well in court.
"Hmmm... I could tell him who the witness is by identifying a prominent feature of his... but that probably wouldn't work well in court. I'll just tell him the witness is the siren."
Anyway, there is still recoil, and that gun has a ton of recoil. Considering Machi and Romein's heights, and that Romein was shot in the shoulder, Machi would had to have pointed the gun up--and the backfire would've gone right down, either hurling the gun into his stomach or ripping his arm off. Also, a gun fires pretty quickly. You'd need to adjust your grip really fast to avoid recoil. And Machi probably wouldn't have had any experience with guns, especially those given only to Interpol (I think... Don't remember exactly ^^').
Also, that explanation for why he wrote his Interpol number and not anything about Daryan does not resolve anything at all. Okay, so writing the Interpol number makes sense in that light. But why could he not write both? He was alive for a good time after he was shot... He had plenty of time when Daryan wasn't there.
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Re: 4-3 contradictions solved!
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Re: 4-3 contradictions solved!
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Bad Player wrote:
"Hmmm... I could tell him who the witness is by identifying a prominent feature of his... but that probably wouldn't work well in court. I'll just tell him the witness is the siren."
If you're trying to mock me you're doing a poor job. That's an excellent summary.
Bad Player wrote:
Anyway, there is still recoil, and that gun has a ton of recoil. Considering Machi and Romein's heights, and that Romein was shot in the shoulder, Machi would had to have pointed the gun up--and the backfire would've gone right down, either hurling the gun into his stomach or ripping his arm off. Also, a gun fires pretty quickly. You'd need to adjust your grip really fast to avoid recoil. And Machi probably wouldn't have had any experience with guns, especially those given only to Interpol (I think... Don't remember exactly ^^').
I don't understand what you're trying to say here.
Bad Player wrote:
Also, that explanation for why he wrote his Interpol number and not anything about Daryan does not resolve anything at all. Okay, so writing the Interpol number makes sense in that light. But why could he not write both? He was alive for a good time after he was shot... He had plenty of time when Daryan wasn't there.
He probably was too weak to write any more than that. By that I mean he couldn't move enough to get more blood on his finger.
Re: 4-3 contradictions solved!
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GigaHand wrote:
If you're trying to mock me you're doing a poor job. That's an excellent summary.
no it's notGigaHand wrote:
I don't understand what you're trying to say here.
that what you are saying is impossible
Re: 4-3 contradictions solved!
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Re: 4-3 contradictions solved!
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Some of your explanations are quite interesting... they're just not enough to clear up the things that don't make sense in 4-3.
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Re: 4-3 contradictions solved!
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It’s been said, a lot of stuff that made 4-3 sour wasn’t direct contradictions, but mostly shoddy writing that’ll make you go hurr …
- Machi & the gun
The height difference and angle of penetration was already addressed in the official CR contradictions page—which concluded that it … simply wasn’t addressed at all. Chalk it up to oversight or the writers choosing to ignore the point. As for the recoil problem, Dirty Harry can attest, a .44 magnum is one of the most powerful handguns in the world. Ok, not really, but it still packs quite a punch. Simply being “adept” at shooting isn’t enough for these calibers of guns; you actually do need some physical stature to properly handle them. Use some Google-fu and you can find some videos or articles about it. Given Machi’s size, he would have to be really ripped underneath that white shirt to not sustain some sort of injury, and that’s assuming he had formal training in exotic firearms. Of course we have to suspend a good amount of disbelief when playing these games, considering how the PW world’s police and justice system works (3 days for a murder trial? Come on …). But you can’t just keep attributing every irregularity with “hey its just a game” there comes a point where I do expect the writers to have some standards. Hey, Machi could have been a body-buildan, gun shootan thug … doesn’t really fit does it.
Ok, for their sake, lets assume the police and prosecution knew and understood these oddities, so why did they indict Machi? I haven’t played 4-3 in a while, but I remember Ema mentioning that they knew the case against Machi was weak, but since he was the only person who could of possibly committed the crime (timing, alibis, size of the vent, etc), they had no choice. The police were also under a bit of pressure to finger a suspect—there wasn’t time for an in-depth investigation. Although really unlikely, it was still in the realm of possible, so they decided to run with it. Now you could just say, “stop being terrible at your goddamned job Ema”, but if she went and solved the case correctly what exactly would Apollo be doing? Defending Daryan? I don’t think so.
- The Siren witness
Already covered in the CR page, LeTouse probably knew where Lamiroir was at the time and knew she would of “witnessed” the event.
- Identifying the killer
Eh, attribute it to the writer’s “artistic/dramatic license”. What I mean by that is sometimes you just have to put in little bits of bullshit to move things along, sort of like one of those lame action film scenes where the hero takes on 10 evil henchmen at once. Want a more sensible reason? Well, when you’re lying there bleeding to death you’re probably not in the most coherent state of mind. The dreadful sense of panic and impending doom does a number on common sense, which not a lot of people have to begin with. Although to LeTouse’s credit, writing his Interpol number was a bit clever. It not only identified who he really was to the police, but also would lead them to a motive and suspects once they figured out what he was assigned to do. Well, why didn’t he just write “Dickhair” or something equivalent, or bother telling Apollo? Again, artistic license.
Ok, to review, (sorry for the long post), most of the “contradictions” aren’t true contradictions in the standard sense, its just awkward writing. Use of artistic license is sometimes necessary to promote drama, suspense and other plot points, but overuse leads to things being really cheesy and lame, MASON system anyone?
Re: 4-3 contradictions solved!
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Gozu wrote:
if something has to be explained by "oh he totally read the case files to x case, we didn't mention it though" then that's just poor writing
Not only that, why would he have even read those case files in the first place? They're certainly not big enough to be on Interpol's radar, or even to attract attention on the national level.
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Re: 4-3 contradictions solved!
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Nose wrote:
Ping' wrote:
GigaHand wrote:
Next, why didn't the victim write a description of his shooter instead of his interpol number, when he had a VERY distinguishing feature ? Well... he probably read the case files of State vs. Fey or State vs. Byrde. The defendant's name was written, but someone else was the killer. It's very easy to plant a piece of evidence like that, so he gave a clue as to the killer's motive. Only two people had that motive, but he only knew of one. Furthermore, if they didn't know he was an Interpol agent they wouldn't have given the replica a second thought. Also, Daryan didn't try to erase the writing before it was done beacuse he was off getting firecrackers. It's not like people carry firecrackers with them at all times!
? Well... he probably read the case files of State vs. Fey or State vs. Byrde. The defendant's name was written, but someone else was the killer. It's very easy to plant a piece of evidence like that, so he gave a clue as to the killer's motive. Only two people had that motive, but he only knew of one. Furthermore, if they didn't know he was an Interpol agent they wouldn't have given the replica a second thought. Also, Daryan didn't try to erase the writing before it was done beacuse he was off getting firecrackers. It's not like people carry firecrackers with them at all times!> If he knew who the shooter was, he could've just told Apollo "the killer is
I don't think there that are many contradictions in 4-3... what bothers me more is that in order for the plot to work, the characters have to be complete idiots.
Incoming wall of text.
You also have to consider that the games as a whole refer little to what characters look like. You have to consider that in both of his disguises no one recognised Tigre, despite his skin being red the first thing people would notice. Similarly, no one references how ridiculous Daryan's hair is, which Letouse could have told Apollo about to save him a whole lot of trouble.
I think it points to the cases being written when character design was only in it's most basic stages, ie. Tigre is just some tough guy who looks like Phoenix, Daryan is just a young, attractive band member. Looking at the characters in concept while ignoring their actual appearance gets rid of quite a few of contradictions, such as this one, Tigre and the whole spirit channeling (ie. People thinking Pearl is the one channeling, despite the fact that in game channeled people retain the channeler's hair and eye colours) and the whole twin swap hair colour fiasco of 3-5.
hmmm i think that's a really good point. the best pount I have heard to date about why letouse didn't say "it was the guy with the hair".
i approve this one.
i don't know much about guns but the OPs theory sounded fine to me... that is until people started pointing out that even if machi knew how to shoot that type of gun it'd be very unlikely he won't hurt himself in the recoil. but as for shooting up... there was a couch he could stand on toe reach letouse's shoulder... oh wait he'd be on the wrong side of the room to shoot from on the couch. and then the reocoil will make him fall off too. oh well
never mind then. xD
Re: 4-3 contradictions solved!
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Even if we ignore the fact that Machi couldn't fire the high-caliber gun without inuring himself, how praytell do the police think the 15-year old, legally blind kid, dragged a 6 foot + body down a hallway without being seen, and UP A STINKING LADDER?! Daryan pulling it off was bizarre in itself, but at least more believable then Machi. Yes I'm aware that the police have a reputation of being stupid in Ace Attorney, but this case crossed the line.
I love the excuse of the police being "pressed for time". Yeah, that's why they would incriminate an underage ambassador of a foreign country for shooting an Interpol agent from the same country under the flimsiest amount of evidence. That won't start an international incident or anything.
Oh and they just "assume" Machi knew how to fire the gun. Yeah, no need to do a physical examination or background checks or anything, he's just being charged for murder is all.
Re: 4-3 contradictions solved!
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And it fits badly with Machi being the one who did it. The platform is highly likely remote controlled, the occupants would have a problem hitting the switch to raise the platform and getting up on it in time before it had rised too high to be climbable. Then again Machi could have used a ladder to get up there after it was raised. Of course, it is even less sane to be on said platform if the lyrics doesn't require it. Then again, the lyrics are a bit vague here.
Edit: Also look at what I dug out of the ROM:
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Re: 4-3 contradictions solved!
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Why did the smuggling even happen? Okay, I understand the president's son had... Incuritis... *snicker* but what was Machi and Daryan aiming for? I would think they wanted the money, but aren't they already members of a triple platinum rock band that's considered one of the most popular in the world? Why do they need more money that badly?
For that matter, why was Borginia banning the export of the cocoons? They explain it's because a poison can be made with it. Oh gee, that's just like... multiple other types of medicine that can be used for poison! That philosophy is like banning the selling of knives because someone might try to stab someone else with it.
Also Machi didn't want to be found out as a smuggler because he didn't want to be executed for smuggling the cocoon... ... is he even aware they execute people in Japan/America for MURDER?!
Also, I'm convined Latouse is not only bad at leaving dying messages, but he's literally too dumb to live. If what we understand about the murder is true, then that means Daryan fired the gun, missed, and fired it again before the INTERPOL AGENT could detain him. That means the agent was just standing there after the first shot, allowing Daryan to get the second shot in.
Last edited by DynoStretch on Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: 4-3 contradictions solved!
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Re: 4-3 contradictions solved!
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DarkWobbuffet wrote:
Also, I'm convined Latouse is not only bad at leaving dying messages, but he's literally too dumb to live. If what we understand about the murder is true, then that means Daryan fired the gun, missed, and fired it again before the INTERPOL AGENT could detain him. That means the agent was just standing there after the first shot, allowing Daryan to get the second shot in.
Something like that.
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Re: 4-3 contradictions solved!
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Bad Player wrote:
DarkWobbuffet wrote:
Also, I'm convined Latouse is not only bad at leaving dying messages, but he's literally too dumb to live. If what we understand about the murder is true, then that means Daryan fired the gun, missed, and fired it again before the INTERPOL AGENT could detain him. That means the agent was just standing there after the first shot, allowing Daryan to get the second shot in.
Something like that.
Considering the adrenaline that would be running through Daryan's system at the time, it's possible he didn't notice the major pain until after he'd calmed down a bit, same way you can ignore cuts and scrapes during sports. This way he could have fired two shots quickly without LeTouse interrupting him.
Also my memory is fuzzy, did LeTouse actually know Daryan's name? I can't recall if he did and if not then perhaps he lacked the....verbal familiarity to describe Daryan. He already would seem to have a tenuous grasp of English from "The Witness is Siren" having basic grammatical errors so perhaps he didn't know the term "Dickhead" or even Daryan's name to identify him.
Or you know he was just dying and didn't give two stuffs about grammar...
Either way this thread is quite undead.
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Re: 4-3 contradictions solved!
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Pierre wrote:
Also my memory is fuzzy, did LeTouse actually know Daryan's name? I can't recall if he did and if not then perhaps he lacked the....verbal familiarity to describe Daryan. He already would seem to have a tenuous grasp of English from "The Witness is Siren" having basic grammatical errors so perhaps he didn't know the term "Dickhead" or even Daryan's name to identify him.
That's an interesting point... But even if he didn't have the words, he could've always done a neat little drawing to identify the killer.
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Re: 4-3 contradictions solved!
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Bad Player wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Also my memory is fuzzy, did LeTouse actually know Daryan's name? I can't recall if he did and if not then perhaps he lacked the....verbal familiarity to describe Daryan. He already would seem to have a tenuous grasp of English from "The Witness is Siren" having basic grammatical errors so perhaps he didn't know the term "Dickhead" or even Daryan's name to identify him.
That's an interesting point... But even if he didn't have the words, he could've always done a neat little drawing to identify the killer.
I think a drawing is a little complex for blood too likely to smudge since he needs to make it loop round and meet. Plus he may have not had a good look at his attacker.
Let's face it detective or not Daryan is a bit of a wimp compared to the might of muscle that is LeTouse. Remembering that LeTouse is part of the only competent force in AAverse Interpol it can be assumed he's probably a formidable foe. Odds are assuming the gun was hidden in his coat it wouldn't be easy for Daryan to overpower LeTouse to get it unless he took him by surprise to get the gun. Then LeTouse turns and things get blurry as the shots are fired.
Just a hypothetical, I'm sure there's plenty of reasons why he couldn't draw a human in blood, much less one that is detailed enough to identify a killer.
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Re: 4-3 contradictions solved!
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Re: 4-3 contradictions solved!
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Bad Player wrote:
But there were two shots, so shouldn't there have been time for LeTouse to see Daryan after the first shot?
In threatening situations people tend to focus on the weapon rather than the perpetrator which has caused trouble in eyewitness situations besides as he was dying we know he was focused on the bracelet that fell.
Also I mentioned earlier for Daryan to be able to even get off a second shot without LeTouse punching him to Babahl the shots would have to come close one after the other. I can't remember the details of the murder weapon specifically but I doubt it was an old six-shooter magnum revolver so it could probably shoot reasonably quickly assuming Daryan could ignore the pain long enough.
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Re: 4-3 contradictions solved!
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If we go with the struggle theory then we got a plausible explanation for why there was a miss to begin with, the gun went off by accident during the struggle.
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Re: 4-3 contradictions solved!
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henke37 wrote:
It was never clarified how the actual shooting happened, as in positions and angles of the people. As such we can make up any insane explanation we feel like for what happened in the room.
If we go with the struggle theory then we got a plausible explanation for why there was a miss to begin with, the gun went off by accident during the struggle.
If we go with the struggle theory then we got a plausible explanation for why there was a miss to begin with, the gun went off by accident during the struggle.
Sure does.
Daryan grapples with LeTouse from behind as he is monitoring the room. He reaches an arm around and plucks the gun from inside his jacket. LeTouse swings with a mighty hook punch to level his attacker. Daryan ducks back to position a shot and avoid the blow and as LeTouse is slightly ducking from trying to hit Daryan plus the constant movement Daryan misses. He realligns his shot with the lower LeTouse and pow right in the shoulder.
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Re: 4-3 contradictions solved!
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Odrom wrote:
I remember Ema mentioning that they knew the case against Machi was weak, but since he was the only person who could of possibly committed the crime (timing, alibis, size of the vent, etc), they had no choice.
And there, we have a major contradiction. The size of the air vent was so small, it seems, that only Machi could fit crawling in there. So could SOMEbody explain to me how the same air vent offering circumstantial evidence against Machi was large enough to be used by Lamiroir in her magic trick? Unless this thing exists in the 4th dimension or something, the very foundation of the testimony of the case's main witness is flawed.
Re: 4-3 contradictions solved!
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Quote:
The size of the air vent was so small, it seems, that only Machi could fit crawling in there.
Speaking of which, why didn't they bother to check the gun for fingerprints? If Machi's fingerprints weren't on the gun, then he couldn't had done it. Since his fingerprints were in the air vent, he obviously wasn't wearing gloves.
Oh and here's another thing that's been bugging me. What happened to Machi after the trial? We don't see him again after that, not even in the credits. He's the only defendant in the series we don't see again, aside from Matt Engarde and Zak for obvious reasons. Was he put in solitary confinement? Was he deported back to his home country and executed? Tell us something, game!!
Re: 4-3 contradictions solved!
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Also the ending made it obvious that Machi would go on trial in America so he would not receive the death sentence,
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Re: 4-3 contradictions solved!
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Re: 4-3 contradictions solved!
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Quote:
They could easily have said Machi donned gloves for the shooting then discarded them afterwards.
But why would he discard the gloves before supposedly moving the body and gun? If he brought gloves then that means he was planning to not get caught, then why get rid of said gloves before moving the evidence?
Quote:
Also the ending made it obvious that Machi would go on trial in America so he would not receive the death sentence,
But why don't we see him in the epilogue/credits then? As I said, we've seen every other defendant in the series during the credits (aside from Matt and Zak of course) even the ones that get jail-time afterwards. Machi is the only one we don't see.
Re: 4-3 contradictions solved!
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Quote:
But why don't we see him in the epilogue/credits then? As I said, we've seen every other defendant in the series during the credits (aside from Matt and Zak of course) even the ones that get jail-time afterwards. Machi is the only one we don't see.
Ok Zak of course makes sense. Matt? I don't get why's he's of course. Just because he ain't shown in the credits don't mean he's dead there's nothing to suggest that.
Quote:
But why would he discard the gloves before supposedly moving the body and gun? If he brought gloves then that means he was planning to not get caught, then why get rid of said gloves before moving the evidence?
Well he could simply have not used gloves for the body and discarded them after the shooting the prosecution could claim.
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Re: 4-3 contradictions solved!
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Pierre wrote:
Ok Zak of course makes sense. Matt? I don't get why's he's of course. Just because he ain't shown in the credits don't mean he's dead there's nothing to suggest that.
I don't think he meant that Matt was dead; it's more about the fact that bad guys / murderers never appear in the credits.
Re: 4-3 contradictions solved!
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Jozerick wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Ok Zak of course makes sense. Matt? I don't get why's he's of course. Just because he ain't shown in the credits don't mean he's dead there's nothing to suggest that.
I don't think he meant that Matt was dead; it's more about the fact that bad guys / murderers never appear in the credits.
Awww Zak's not a bad guy....he's dead is a more explanation that he didn't appear. I just don't think it's mandatory for surviving defendants to appear in credit narratives.
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Re: 4-3 contradictions solved!
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Pierre wrote:
Awww Zak's not a bad guy....he's dead is a more explanation that he didn't appear.
I didn't mean that Zak was a bad guy. I meant Zak doesn't appear in the credits because he's dead, and Matt doesn't appear because he's a bad guy. Both reasons are obvious, but different.
In any case, I do think it's strange that Machi doesn't appear in the credits. I guess they just forgot about him?
Re: 4-3 contradictions solved!
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Jozerick wrote:
I didn't mean that Zak was a bad guy. I meant Zak doesn't appear in the credits because he's dead, and Matt doesn't appear because he's a bad guy. Both reasons are obvious, but different.
Yeah, that's what I meant. Matt is considered a villain in the series, and Phoenix of course wouldn't exactly be keen on wanting to visit people he had put away for murder. Sorry if I didn't word it right. :x
Quote:
Well he could simply have not used gloves for the body and discarded them after the shooting the prosecution could claim.
I'm not seeing any sense in this. If he had gloves, why only use them for wielding the gun? He could had been wearing them in the air duct so his fingerprints wouldn't show up on it, and I doubt he would want his fingerprints to be found on the victim's body.
And again, I still consider the fact that we're discussing this to be bonkers in itself, trying to make sense of the police's bizarre accusation that Machi was the killer. As I've said, the police have been rather dim in the past, but the writers of this game just pushed it too far.
Re: 4-3 contradictions solved!
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Quote:
And again, I still consider the fact that we're discussing this to be bonkers in itself, trying to make sense of the police's bizarre accusation that Machi was the killer. As I've said, the police have been rather dim in the past, but the writers of this game just pushed it too far.
That's one way to look at it. I prefer to think the police had their hands tied about who to bring to the stand, with no one else having appeared to commit the crime they had to charge Machi as a suspect. I don't hate the writers.
Besides there are other ways fingerprints can be wiped from a gun, perhaps they did look for fingerprints and found none. Additionally considering how Machi was also unconscious when they found he had moved the body I'd say it's highly likely that Daryan moved him and LeTouse there but once again lack of evidence and suspicious circumstances led to Machi being charged.
I think the lowest I've heard of a kid committing murder is 12 so...being young don't just mean innocence. I'm sure the police in AA universe may have had a case or two like that in their time.
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