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Case 4-3 Loose ends.... *spoilers*
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Author:  thatgamerguy [ Tue Feb 26, 2008 3:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Case 4-3 Loose ends.... *spoilers*
If the Lamiroir on the stage with Gavin was the Graymere then where did he go? He was on top of a platform, he couldn't just vanish.

Also once the court agrees the murder took place during the 2nd act, isn't Machi then instantly innocent?

Why did Romein steal Gavin's keys?

How did Daryan get the body and Machi (who can see) on the platform so quickly?
Author:  Gerkuman [ Tue Feb 26, 2008 3:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Case 4-3 Loose ends.... *spoilers*
Quote:
Why did Romein steal Gavin's keys?

To get to Klavy's guitar before he was able to use it. Either that, or he hoped that since Klavy wasn't able to get it open he'd use another guitar. Unfortunately for him, Klavy never let it out of his sight, and broke the lock off.

Also, Valant is clever. He'd be able to get off the platform like that if he wanted to. :)
Author:  TheRedPriest [ Tue Feb 26, 2008 3:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Case 4-3 Loose ends.... *spoilers*
Sadly, they never went into it, choosing to focus on when he killed her agent. That part of the case was pretty much just ignored, which kind of makes me sad, and made 4-3 feel a bit... sloppy. But then overall, I felt AJ was a bit sloppier than the last 3 games. Still good, but just... a bit off the mark. It's hard to really pin point.
Author:  Dilbert719 [ Tue Feb 26, 2008 4:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Case 4-3 Loose ends.... *spoilers*
thatgamerguy wrote:
Also once the court agrees the murder took place during the 2nd act, isn't Machi then instantly innocent?


Not according to the law in place in the game, which bears no resemblance to our own. The best I can explain is that, if even the slightest objection to the defense's version of events can be upheld, barring a confession from the actual criminal, the prosecution's version of events is the one held to be true.
Author:  Xero Wright [ Tue Feb 26, 2008 5:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Case 4-3 Loose ends.... *spoilers*
Quote:
How did Daryan get the body and Machi (who can see) on the platform so quickly?


I would guess he got Machi to help him with the body (Even if he's 14, I bet that he could offer a bit of assistance). Even if not, the next thing he would have done was knock out Machi, put him on the platform with Romein (and put the guitar on top of him), and then finally raise the platform into the air.

Remember, we have no idea when the body disappeared. I'm guessing that it happened right after Apollo first went to talk to Lamiroir. For all we know, that conversation lasted about five or six minutes. And Machi went out of the room shortly after you began talking to her. So it's very plausible.


Quote:
Also once the court agrees the murder took place during the 2nd act, isn't Machi then instantly innocent?


Guilty until proven innocent.

Even when it was agreed that it took place during the 2nd act, there was no actual evidence to prove it until Daryan was dragged onto the witness stand. Once that happened, of course, both Apollo and Klavier wanted one thing: The truth. And it happened to come right out of Daryan's mouth. "...Please! Don't taaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaalk!"


Quote:
Why did Romein steal Gavin's keys?


I thought Daryan did?
Author:  WhiteElephant [ Tue Feb 26, 2008 8:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Case 4-3 Loose ends.... *spoilers*
thatgamerguy wrote:
If the Lamiroir on the stage with Gavin was the Graymere then where did he go? He was on top of a platform, he couldn't just vanish.

He vanished, of course xB The vanishing act was never really explained, but we can even assume that Valant could have created an illusion of Lamiroir as well. ITS MAGIC PEOPLE D:!! And Phoenix Wright/Apollo Justice world logic is an incredible contradiction itself.

thatgamerguy wrote:
Also once the court agrees the murder took place during the 2nd act, isn't Machi then instantly innocent?

They agreed it took place during the second act but there is no real proof of that. Thus why Phoenix said that Apollo would have to peg down Daryan using unconventional means (i.e.: Calling on Daryan to testify and then calling on Machi to testify again (which he would do now since the only reason he wouldn't tell Daryan did it was because he would be called out on taking the cocoon which equals death in his country)).

thatgamerguy wrote:
Why did Romein steal Gavin's keys?

Romein wanted to, because he realized that was the only way the cocoon could have been sneaked out (since it was never checked). But Daryan got to the guitar first, took out the cocoon and then placed in the igniter, so that any evidence of the cocoon being inside it would be burned away with the carrying case (aka: the guitar)

thatgamerguy wrote:
How did Daryan get the body and Machi (who can see) on the platform so quickly?

After we found out Lamiroir could actually speak English Machi excused himself from the room. Machi is still bound to listening to Daryan because if he doesn't then he would be executed for stealing the cocoon. Klavier was gone away (most likely with Ema) and Apollo, Trucy and Lamiroir were talking for what could have been ten minutes. Daryan is estimated to be about as tall as Romein, and with Machi he could have hauled away the body (remember- Daryan knows for a fact that Machi can see). While Machi propped Romein onto the platform Daryan probably knocked him out (Machi is a small kid after all), put his 'missing' guitar on Romein and then lifted the platform up (he knows how to since he is a part of the band).
Author:  Gerkuman [ Tue Feb 26, 2008 9:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Case 4-3 Loose ends.... *spoilers*
Actually, the lighter was put in by Machi, not Daryan. The cacoon never got out of the guitar before it was burnt up.
Author:  RadLink5 [ Tue Feb 26, 2008 9:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Case 4-3 Loose ends.... *spoilers*
-Valant is a master magician, disappearing like that was probably the easiest part of the illusion for him. I mean he was even standing on a trap door, which I'm sure led somewhere despite the tower being raised. The part that got me was them "switching" Lamiroir with Valant. But again, grand magician and whatnot.

-The fact that that's not the case is the "problem with the legal system" the Judge was talking about at the end of the case I assume.

-Daryan stole the keys to try to get to Klavier's guitar, which was housing the cocoon. Romein just managed to wrestle the keys away from him during the struggle.

EDIT: To those saying the igniter was put into the guitar later, the igniter was in the guitar for as long as the cocoon was. It was their insurance. No one except Klavier touched the guitar after they sealed it up in Borginia anyway. They couldn't because it was sealed up tight and it'd obviously raise suspicion of the guitar was unsealed when Klavier got to it.

-I doubt it was "so quick". Ema was gone forever, and Apollo was probably chatting with Lamiroir for quite a while. I mean yeah, it seems a bit strange, but it's not impossible.
Author:  Aevitas [ Tue Feb 26, 2008 9:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Case 4-3 Loose ends.... *spoilers*
thatgamerguy wrote:
Why did Romein steal Gavin's keys?


I always thought it was Daryan who stole the keys? I pictured that Daryan stole the keys so he could get the coccoon from the guitar, only to find it was wrapped up right until the performance. LeTouse found out about it and tried to wrestle the keys from Daryan to retrieve the coccoon at which point Daryan killed him.

I do recall Apollo saying "There's something in LeTouse's hand.. maybe something he grabbed from the killer?"
Author:  Writer Awakened [ Tue Feb 26, 2008 9:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Case 4-3 Loose ends.... *spoilers*
What I'm wondering about is actually simpler than that. It's not a contradiction, but it is a wtf moment. What the heck is up with the prosecution bringing charges against FOURTEEN-YEAR OLD Machi Tobaye? :Maki: I honestly thought that they were joking at first when they suggested it. Here's why:


1. They make a point to say that LeTouse lost his .45 revolver in a struggle. Okay. A thirty-something year old GIANT of a man (a bodyguard and a trained Interpol agent, no less!) has his side arm wrestled away from him by a fourteen-year old?!? Klavier, wtf? And Udgey, wtf?!? :udgy:

2. They also make a point to say that the .45 revolver had an extremely powerful kickback, and that it was fired twice. Um, if tiny Machi had really fired the revolver, if it was such a high-power make, then wouldn't he have broken or cracked something after the first shot?

3. Let's consider what would happen if Machi did somehow fire those two shots. LeTouse was shot in the shoulder and bled to death. Machi is much shorter than Romein LeTouse, so for him to shoot LeTouse in the shoulder, Machi would have to fire with an upward trajectory, which would mean that the two bullet holes would be somewhere on the ceiling, NOT on the opposite wall!

4. The last one happened after the murder, when the prosecution claims that Machi moved LeTouse's body from the dressing room to the tower. This was the point I stopped suspending my disbelief. Machi is fourteen years old, and tiny. LeTouse is...well, we've seen him. He's HUGE. He's the Borginian Giant. If Machi committed the crime, and did it alone as the prosecution alleged...how the heck did he move the body? XD


Of course, we know that the facts of the crime make perfect sense when we know that Daryan (a tall and strong young man) did it. But the prosecution brought the case against a fourteen year old piano player? And you don't even have the option of pointing this out?!? Apollo?!? This case wouldn't even make it to trial! It would be thrown out and Klavier would be smacked over the head with a guitar for suggesting it! :rock'n: XD

Did anyone else notice this?
Author:  Aevitas [ Tue Feb 26, 2008 10:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Case 4-3 Loose ends.... *spoilers*
I noticed that too. But they kept taking the direction back to him being the only person who could fit in the air vent =_=" I would've started looking for a secret passage or something before I stated for sure that the killer used the vent to exit the room. And I do remember Apollo bringing up the fact that Machi was tiny and using such a huge gun wasn't likely, but for some reason they didn't address it. Strange case indeed where no one's logic made sense. And they never even talked about the body being moved after Ema scolded Apollo for not watching the crime scene :<.
Author:  WhiteElephant [ Tue Feb 26, 2008 10:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Case 4-3 Loose ends.... *spoilers*
Writer Awakened wrote:
What I'm wondering about is actually simpler than that. It's not a contradiction, but it is a wtf moment. What the heck is up with the prosecution bringing charges against FOURTEEN-YEAR OLD Machi Tobaye? :Maki: I honestly thought that they were joking at first when they suggested it. Here's why:


1. They make a point to say that LeTouse lost his .45 revolver in a struggle. Okay. A thirty-something year old GIANT of a man (a bodyguard and a trained Interpol agent, no less!) has his side arm wrestled away from him by a fourteen-year old?!? Klavier, wtf? And Udgey, wtf?!? :udgy:

2. They also make a point to say that the .45 revolver had an extremely powerful kickback, and that it was fired twice. Um, if tiny Machi had really fired the revolver, if it was such a high-power make, then wouldn't he have broken or cracked something after the first shot?

3. Let's consider what would happen if Machi did somehow fire those two shots. LeTouse was shot in the shoulder and bled to death. Machi is much shorter than Romein LeTouse, so for him to shoot LeTouse in the shoulder, Machi would have to fire with an upward trajectory, which would mean that the two bullet holes would be somewhere on the ceiling, NOT on the opposite wall!

4. The last one happened after the murder, when the prosecution claims that Machi moved LeTouse's body from the dressing room to the tower. This was the point I stopped suspending my disbelief. Machi is fourteen years old, and tiny. LeTouse is...well, we've seen him. He's HUGE. He's the Borginian Giant. If Machi committed the crime, and did it alone as the prosecution alleged...how the heck did he move the body? XD


Of course, we know that the facts of the crime make perfect sense when we know that Daryan (a tall and strong young man) did it. But the prosecution brought the case against a fourteen year old piano player? And you don't even have the option of pointing this out?!? Apollo?!? This case wouldn't even make it to trial! It would be thrown out and Klavier would be smacked over the head with a guitar for suggesting it! :rock'n: XD

Did anyone else notice this?

Your case is very plausible. But you forget one thing:

PHOENIX WRIGHT AND APOLLO JUSTICE LOGIC DEFIES ALL REALISTIC COMMON SENSE AND PHYSICS!!

Seriously, if Phoenix can fall of a burning bridge with a fifty foot distance above a raging river and survive with just a bad fever/cold, and if Maya can channel dead spirits and
Spoiler: Spoil for ending of 4-4
And if Thalassa could survive being shot (twice?) and only go blind and lose her memory

then why can't a little 14 year old boy shoot a giant WITHOUT EVEN GETTING INJURED.

:spit:

8D -shot for life-
Author:  Wrestler Hatman [ Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Case 4-3 Loose ends.... *spoilers*
The biggest loose end is...

Who's gonna end up as the rhythm guitar/bass guitar for Garyuu Wave/Gavinneers.
Author:  Writer Awakened [ Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Case 4-3 Loose ends.... *spoilers*
Attorney Hatman wrote:
The biggest loose end is...

Who's gonna end up as the rhythm guitar/bass guitar for Garyuu Wave/Gavinneers.


Spoiler: Endgame
The Gavinners break up after the end of the game, according to Klavier. So the real question is, what will be :rock'n:'s next step up?
Author:  WhiteElephant [ Wed Feb 27, 2008 1:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Case 4-3 Loose ends.... *spoilers*
Writer Awakened wrote:
Attorney Hatman wrote:
The biggest loose end is...

Who's gonna end up as the rhythm guitar/bass guitar for Garyuu Wave/Gavinneers.


Spoiler: Endgame
The Gavinners break up after the end of the game, according to Klavier. So the real question is, what will be :rock'n:'s next step up?


.....Rock and Roll Magician >;D! -shot-
Author:  Wrestler Hatman [ Wed Feb 27, 2008 2:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Case 4-3 Loose ends.... *spoilers*
Writer Awakened wrote:
Attorney Hatman wrote:
The biggest loose end is...

Who's gonna end up as the rhythm guitar/bass guitar for Garyuu Wave/Gavinneers.


Spoiler: Endgame
The Gavinners break up after the end of the game, according to Klavier. So the real question is, what will be :rock'n:'s next step up?

I didn't exactly check those out, was busy with something else. Let's just say I had an idea that is oh so wrong yet oh so hilarious involving said band with said lack of a member.

It involves someone not of Capcom origin, however, but he HAS been in a Capcom game before. Two, to be precise.
Author:  Poltergust [ Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Case 4-3 Loose ends.... *spoilers*
Spoiler: Vanishing Trick
There is still one thing that bothers me...

How the HECK is Valant supposed to look like Lamiroir!? I know that he was the Lamiroir up on the stage originally, but... well... he's a man. And Lamiroir is a woman. This game loves to trick me... :meekins:
Author:  thatgamerguy [ Wed Feb 27, 2008 5:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Case 4-3 Loose ends.... *spoilers*
Ok but if Machi went up the air vent after the murder during the 3rd act why don't you see him? You enter the room where Machi is supposedly hiding. THe air vent is by the door.

Also with the guilty til proven innocent:

Machi has no motive but Daryan's motive is a huge problem. Then you have to prove Daryan did it because PROVING MACHI INNOCENT ISNT ENOUGH!
Author:  RadLink5 [ Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Case 4-3 Loose ends.... *spoilers*
Quote:
1. They make a point to say that LeTouse lost his .45 revolver in a struggle. Okay. A thirty-something year old GIANT of a man (a bodyguard and a trained Interpol agent, no less!) has his side arm wrestled away from him by a fourteen-year old?!? Klavier, wtf? And Udgey, wtf?!? :udgy:


They didn't see any possibility for anyone but Machi to do it, so I guess they decided a struggle never happened if Machi managed to get his hands on the gun. After all, they don't even mention the likelihood of a struggle until Daryan becomes the prime suspect.

Quote:
2. They also make a point to say that the .45 revolver had an extremely powerful kickback, and that it was fired twice. Um, if tiny Machi had really fired the revolver, if it was such a high-power make, then wouldn't he have broken or cracked something after the first shot?


Indeed, and this got me too. Honestly though, I guess they just wanted to take care of the case quickly like Klavier said and had no other real suspects.

Quote:
3. Let's consider what would happen if Machi did somehow fire those two shots. LeTouse was shot in the shoulder and bled to death. Machi is much shorter than Romein LeTouse, so for him to shoot LeTouse in the shoulder, Machi would have to fire with an upward trajectory, which would mean that the two bullet holes would be somewhere on the ceiling, NOT on the opposite wall!


He stood on a chair of some kind? I don't know, that's what I felt like Klavier would have said if they would have let me bring that up. In fact at one point I thought they were hinting I'd finally get to bring it up, but no such luck.

Quote:
4. The last one happened after the murder, when the prosecution claims that Machi moved LeTouse's body from the dressing room to the tower. This was the point I stopped suspending my disbelief. Machi is fourteen years old, and tiny. LeTouse is...well, we've seen him. He's HUGE. He's the Borginian Giant. If Machi committed the crime, and did it alone as the prosecution alleged...how the heck did he move the body? XD


Kid eats his vegetables.

Seriously though, I guess it again comes down to a lack of any other "possible" suspects. I guess it was just "Well sure it's highly HIGHLY unlikely a kid that small could drag a body that big, but it's downright impossible for anyone else to have done it".

Quote:
And you don't even have the option of pointing this out?!?


Hence why the legal system in Ace Attorney is so messed up, even the Judge admits that common sense doesn't count for anything in court.
Spoiler: Case 4 ending
Hence the Jurist System. Like the Judge says, the Jurist System lets common people with common sense make the decision instead of abiding strictly to the law, in which case the no-talky girl who liked to draw would have been found guilty.
Author:  Escargotage [ Wed Feb 27, 2008 1:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Case 4-3 Loose ends.... *spoilers*
Was the Chief Justice's son ever cured? That's all I care to know. :acro:
Author:  Wrestler Hatman [ Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Case 4-3 Loose ends.... *spoilers*
RadLink5 wrote:
Hence why the legal system in Ace Attorney is so messed up, even the Judge admits that common sense doesn't count for anything in court.
Spoiler: Case 4 ending
Hence the Jurist System. Like the Judge says, the Jurist System lets common people with common sense make the decision instead of abiding strictly to the law, in which case the no-talky girl who liked to draw would have been found guilty.

Keep in mind that it's more of the former colonial French judicial system of Guilty until proven Innocent, and even then you need a Guilty party.
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