Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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The MASON System just doesn't seem like anything other than a supplementary feelings gauge to me - none of the other suggestions brought forward seem to fit. Plus in retrospect I thought the MASON System was exceptionally well-written and it's going over people's heads, but I really have to replay 4-4 to refresh my memory. There's no way anyone could get their heads round the amount of content dumped into 4-4 in one playthrough and it's damn confusing the first time round. You spend the first five minutes wondering what the hell's going on.
CFTF wrote:
Let's base our trials on things that didn't actually happen!
...yeah... >_>
...yeah... >_>
/facepalm
Suggest an alternative, then. How would you inform a jury of the details of a case to the same level of depth as the MASON System and also guarantee perfect accuracy?
For the record, I'm of the opinion that it's better to convict innocents than to let guilty people go free, except when capital punishment is involved. I'm aware that such a stance is problematic, but so is the opposite view.
Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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Asura Velotix wrote:
/facepalm
Suggest an alternative, then. How would you inform a jury of the details of a case to the same level of depth as the MASON System and also guarantee perfect accuracy?
Suggest an alternative, then. How would you inform a jury of the details of a case to the same level of depth as the MASON System and also guarantee perfect accuracy?
How about, with real evidence, real testimony, all of those witnesses (with the exception of Zak, Vera [who in the planning stages of this should have been expected to be there], and her father) could have been called in, and Phoenix could have given Apollo the evidence he needed to re-crack them if they clamed up. What the was aiming to show was that common sense could prevail if every sign pointed that way, even without decisive proof, not “Ooh! Shiny exposition orbs with questionable accuracy will bias the jury to bring justice!” Almost anything found in the Mason System could have been brought up in court, giving both sides a chance to have their say about it, heck, you could even argue that Phoenix’s last talk with Zak fell under the Dying declaration rule (not in real life, but in AA-world it could work).
Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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I concede that there are indeed alternative systems that have a degree of credibility in allowing a jury to make an objective and reasoned opinion on a case, but I still feel the MASON System is the most ingenious idea for running a trial I've ever seen, even if it needs refinement.
The one big sticking point for the people complaining about the MASON System is that because it's not a flawless recollection of events, it's useless as a way to persuade a jury to make the "right" decision. Neither is evidence in a trial; all evidence can do is present objective, context-free facts, which places the interpretation of the scenario in the hands of people who did not experience the ordeal - the lawyers. This is also why Apollo and Klavier were not exposed to the MASON System. Having trial evidence, trial theories and the MASON System working as a cohesive whole, you get a better "feel" for the case as a juror and can make a more informed decision.
Fundamentally, the important fact about the events portrayed in the MASON System is constantly being misinterpreted. IT IS NOT, NOR WAS IT EVER MEANT TO BE, AN ACCURATE RECOLLECTION OF FACTS - A TRIAL CAN DO THAT FOR YOU JUST FINE. The MASON System portrays a person's train of thought; in this case, Phoenix's seven-year-long investigation into the State vs Gramarye trial, the events surrounding it, the current State vs Misham trial and how they all fit together according to Phoenix. All that is important (and is stated repeatedly in-game) is that this is how Phoenix believes it all fits together. Whether it actually does is up to the jury to decide. That's the whole point. How exactly do you fake a point of view?
You don't. If the MASON System was meant to portray the facts, you wouldn't need a trial at all. It's a feelings gauge, and nothing more. This aspect of the environment a case takes place in cannot be expressed by evidence, is why the legal system in Ace Attorney doesn't work properly and why the MASON System is so important in correcting this flaw.
You can't forge a point of view, so it's impossible to forge anything on the MASON System. The issue then is not, nor should it have ever been, "forged evidence? ohnoes" like we've pointlessly rambled about for a page. Here's the big question, boys and girls.
Is a point of view valid as a form of reaching a verdict in a trial? Whichever way you feel, why do you feel this way?
Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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Asura Velotix wrote:
Although that's a good system, it still pales in comparison to actually living out an (albeit simplified) experience a person had, like the MASON System permits the jury to do.
And therein, my new friend, lies the problem.
From the moment the system was shown to the jury, nothing in the trial could compare to it. I’ll take your explanation of it being Phoenix’s perspective on the event, however my problem with the system is still, as it has always been, thus
1. It was shown to the jury without deliberation or even knowledge by the two legal councils involved.
2. It’s biased, highly biased.
3. It was presented without an equivalent presentation by the other side.
Totally get rid of one (or more) of those things, and I think I would be okay with the MASON system as a method of informing the jury, or as a new form of testimony, provided EVERY witness got something equivalent.
I liked it as a story telling mechanic (I think it could have been so much better), but I did not like how the system itself was used in legal proceedings.
You give the prosecution and defense each a chance to construct as MASON scenario to present to the jury (with rules to how close you have to stick to fact and how far into “what if’ you can go of course), that comes close to being fair, I still wouldn’t like that as a RL trial system, but for a fictional world it seems like it would be fair enough. If the two attorneys work together to construct a MASON to give the Jury a total understanding of the stipulated facts of the case, that’s perfectly fine as well. But when the head of a jury, who himself picked the case to work on because of his personal involvement, creates a scenario explaining exactly what happens, according to his own personal perspective, and presents it without giving either side a chance to respond, that doesn’t sit right with me.
I think Phoenix thought he was doing the right thing, maybe he even thought his system was without bias, it was just what happened. But there have been a few other times in the games (case 2-4 for example) where his and my senses of what’s proper for a “fair trial” have not agreed. Although I still like Hobo and regular Phoenix, I just disagree with him on this point.
Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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Asura Velotix wrote:
It's pretty obvious that the MASON System is going to feature heavily in AA5.
God I hope not >_<
I'll admit that it was kinda fun to play. But, IMO, even without the legal issues, the MASON System is made of fail because it doesn't make sense in the game's context. It was just a really postmodern, overwrought piece of science-fiction mumblejumble that poses a lot more questions than it solves. It was a good idea in principle, but the developers should have really reconsidered inserting a bit of GitS: SAC cyber-shell into our AA. Especially since they couldn't seem to decide whether it was just a "simulation case" to be used as a training tool, a fourth-wall narrative device, a series of video tapes, or purely a computerized jury-interface system. It's fitting that it's called the "Mason" system because it's about as secret.
Which brings me to my final opinion, my thesis statement: No canon character- or factual judgments can be made based on events portrayed solely in the MASON System, because the MASON System itself was poorly designed and explained by the developers themselves.
Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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Writer Awakened wrote:
Which brings me to my final opinion, my thesis statement: No canon character- or factual judgments can be made based on events portrayed solely in the MASON System, because the MASON System itself was poorly designed and explained by the developers themselves.
Normally, I'd disagree, just based on the principle that unless you're writing a fanfic, you can't just pick and chose what continuity you use (and if it is a fanfic, it better be done as part of, or an effect of the fanfic's premise.). However, based on the presentation of the system, I do in fact see it as reasonable to say the “facts” stand, but nothing else can be determined with just the MASON as your basis. As should be obvious as I just re-phrased your statement, I agree.
Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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Putting aside the concept of forgery for a minute, who did the Mason System hurt, other than the concept of "fair trial" itself? Kristoph was not on trial - nothing in the Mason System was used to convict him. He was already in prison, even. Even if Kristoph *was* tried for Drew's murder, the only decisive evidence that could be used to convict him were Vera's testimony, Klavier's testimony, and the stamp recovered from Kristoph's jail cell. In a way, the Mason System would be totally ineffective in attacking Kristoph, if it were used in HIS trial. Its only purpose, and the only thing it succeeded in doing, was saving an innocent women from a guilty verdict.
And that's what Phoenix wanted. He wanted Vera safe, and he wanted Kristoph punished, even if it wasn't as direct a punishment as him getting a second sentence slapped on him.
I agree that if the Mason System were continued to be used, it could easily become a tool for corruption very quickly. But because it was only used once, by Phoenix, for a case that he already knew intimately, it was (in the context of the game) a success.
And if Phoenix's biggest crime comitted through the Mason System was misrepresentation of the facts, it's not as if Phoenix has never done that before. Phoenix has always used whatever means he can to free his client when he believed them to be innocent. In 1-2 he happily went along with Mia's blackmail. In 1-3 he accused Oldbag of the murder just to stall for time, even knowing she was innocent. In 1-3 again he and Mia conspired to hide the fact that Cody had witnessed the murder, thus preventing him from testifying. And of course, in 3-3, the most damning example, he lied in open court to trick Tigre into confessing. In just about every case Phoenix steals evidence from the crime scene, or a person's room or office or whatever, and presents it to court without anyone bothering to check his facts. And because the decisive evidence is usually saved for the end, Phoenix has pointed his GUILTY finger at quite a few suspects before he was 100% positive they had done it. Or at least, before he could prove it.
If Phoenix had abused the Mason Sytem, displaying things that weren't true, then yes, he could potentially cause a lot of havoc and a lot of damage. But Phoenix has always had the opportunity for that. When he presented Engarde's video tape to de Killer, he didn't KNOW what was on it, but his bluff (illegal as it was) saved Maya's life. When Phoenix presented the Mason System to the jury, he KNEW it was the truth, even if it wasn't perfectly recreated, and it saved Vera's life. Are these things really that different?
Is it worse to present the truth in imperfect form than to present a lie you *want* to be the truth? If both are means for saving a life? No one argues that when Phoenix broke the law to save Maya's life he was tainting the legal system horribly. The Mason System is a lot more extreme but in the end it's the same: Phoenix presenting what he believes is the truth in order to save lives.
Whether you *like* it or not is up to you, of course, but those are my thoughts on it.
(Having nothing to do with the bloody ace btw)
Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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Croik wrote:
Putting aside the concept of forgery for a minute, who did the Mason System hurt, other than the concept of "fair trial" itself?
Isn't that enough?
The mere fact that Phoenix has done so many of the shady things you listed is why he needs to be balanced by an opposing force--someone that isn't going to let him get away with "presenting one side". Otherwise you might as well not even have a trial. "Phoenix Wright chose to defend this person--guess they're innocent!"
Croik wrote:
In just about every case Phoenix steals evidence from the crime scene, or a person's room or office or whatever, and presents it to court without anyone bothering to check his facts.
No one ever has an issue with this, so I'd assume it's perfectly legal. Otherwise half his evidence would be thrown out. (Do not get me started on that damn wiretap. I STILL "sldjkasldjaslkdjasd" over that.
)Croik wrote:
And because the decisive evidence is usually saved for the end, Phoenix has pointed his GUILTY finger at quite a few suspects before he was 100% positive they had done it. Or at least, before he could prove it.
So...how does it follow that we should let him point the finger at whoever he wants without challenging his statements?
Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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CantFaketheFunk wrote:
Making sense of the Mason System:
1.) Phoenix forging evidence (manipulating the video)
and
2.) Crappy writing
....it's solved! :D
1.) Phoenix forging evidence (manipulating the video)
and
2.) Crappy writing
....it's solved! :D
Oh so it's a parody on the Matrix...okay I was lost until you said crappy writing.
Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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Oh, that just won the thread! XD
musouka wrote:
Croik wrote:
who did the Mason System hurt, other than the concept of "fair trial" itself?
Isn't that enough?No, because the AA trials were never fair to begin with.
Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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Also, recall the background of the Mason system is that strange computer like one, but after you save and he does start talking to the jury, the screen is black with nothing behind it. I assume they allow you to switch between the past and present to make things a bit harder. After all, the more places you can go, the harder it will be to figure out what you need to do (although he guides you pretty well). And recall that there is a period between them were you save and then there is another intro screen as we shift parts and view points.
If the Mason system were in fact a forgery it is the worst one I've ever seen. It's clearly contradictory and obviously abridged. We can't do this here until I speak to this person who I couldn't have met yet. I understand that there are stupid people in the game, but no one is that stupid. It works though if it was meant as a game for us so that we could better understand Phoenix's situation and go through the process of collecting the evidence (so we also know the relevance of it all). It doesn't make sense that it was ever meant for anybody but the player. Besides, if it was taken as simple evidence, then there wouldn't have been any point in having the trial would there and it wouldn't drag on like it did. We see clearly in the Mason system that Kristoph has the yellow letter covered with poison and we learn that Kristoph gave it to Vera. If the jury had seen that and believed it then there was no point in having an extended trial because the answer is clear. Since the trial does go on for a while and there is never any reference to the Mason system as proving anything at all, I think its clear that it was never meant for anyone but the player. It's a cheap, poor-written plot-device to try to explain an overly complex story line which was put off until the last minute that was fun to play as long as you could suspend disbelief.
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Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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Writer Awakened wrote:
But don't forget, Phoenix worked on the MASON System with the courts and the judge. That was his "secret mission". He didn't just make a computer program, go to the court and say "hay guys I gots evidence!" He specifically stated that he worked in conjunction with the courts, and the judge had complete knowledge of it. Seriously, do you really think that the bar association would let someone whom they obviously distrusted have complete control of the law? As someone mentioned, that's silly. But the law board isn't stupid. They knew everything that was going on, and they had Phoenix help because they knew that he knew what he was talking about. The court knew exactly what constituted the MASON System. There were no secrets.
Personally, a legal association that would put a lawyer who was disbarred in disgrace for forging evidence in charge of overhauling their courts is already looking like a bunch of mouthbreathing idiots. So no telling how much Phoenix was supervised.
And the court knew? If by the court you mean MAYBE the Judge but certainly not either of the two attorneys, sure. And ergo, there were secrets.
It still doesn't change the fact that Phoenix should not have been allowed to present directly to the Jury without the attorneys being there to counterargue. Sure, they (idiotically) trusted him... just like they presumably trust the prosecution to make its case. But there's still a defense to counter in case the prosecution is wrong.
Where was the 'defense' to counter in case Phoenix was wrong?
Hell, given Phoenix's investment in the case, he should have been prevented from choosing it due to conflict of interest.
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Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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musouka wrote:
Isn't that enough?
The mere fact that Phoenix has done so many of the shady things you listed is why he needs to be balanced by an opposing force--someone that isn't going to let him get away with "presenting one side". Otherwise you might as well not even have a trial. "Phoenix Wright chose to defend this person--guess they're innocent!"
The mere fact that Phoenix has done so many of the shady things you listed is why he needs to be balanced by an opposing force--someone that isn't going to let him get away with "presenting one side". Otherwise you might as well not even have a trial. "Phoenix Wright chose to defend this person--guess they're innocent!"
But it's not as if Klavier didn't have a chance to counter the most important points of the Mason System - in the end, Apollo still had to use the evidence Phoenix gave him in court, against Klavier and Kristoph. Even without the Mason System Apollo was able to explain the stamp, and the nail polish, and the connection it all had to Kristoph. The Mason System had a lot of extra data that wasn't *necessary* to solve the case, but it gave it context (like Thalassa's accident, the history of Troupe Gramarye, etc). The only thing the Mason System used that was really damaging that wasn't accepted to trial was the final piece of evidence: the yellow envelope. Everything else that was really effective comes up in court, and even when Klavier does have the chance to fight back, he doesn't because by then he's already seen the truth.
If Phoenix had simply explained to Apollo the history of the case, without any Mason System, things would have ended the same way - Kristoph would have still flipped out in front of the Jury, thus sparing Vera a guilty verdict. The Mason System just provided a lot of context and backstory to help make it make more sense.
And I agree that if the Mason System were a common occurrence, an attorney could do some serious manipulation. But I don't think that's what happened in this case, because in the end it's Phoenix doing everything he can to tell the *truth* and nothing else.
Also...I don't buy that Phoenix's actions through the first three games were legal, in reference to him stealing evidence from the scenes of crimes. Just about every time Gumshoe forks over an autopsy report he says, "I shouldn't be doing this." Every time Gumshoe says "Don't talk to the witness" and Phoenix does it anyway. Their law system is heavy skewed in the prosecution's favor, and in some cases Phoenix has to break the law just to reach a state of fairness. That's the way it's always been, so I still think it's understandable when Phoenix continues that trend in AJ.
(Again, not counting the ace.)
Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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Quote:
But it's not as if Klavier didn't have a chance to counter the most important points of the Mason System - in the end, Apollo still had to use the evidence Phoenix gave him in court, against Klavier and Kristoph.
He didn't.
Remember, it's a jury trial. Fuck 'evidence,' it's all about 'feelings.' Since Phoenix was allowed to make his Mason presentation to the jury without the prosecutor being there, the fact that Apollo still had to use the evidence in court is ultimately irrelevant due to the very principle behind the implementation of the Jurist system.
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Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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Asura Velotix wrote:
I still think people would be moaning about the MASON System a lot less if they'd bothered to explain it properly rather than just drop you in it out of the blue.
Definitely true. I've said it before, but the MASON System really reminds me of those last two episodes of Neon Genesis Evangelion, where you're dropped into...something...and aren't quite sure what, the whole thing's confusing, and you're never actually told what it was.Then again, I'm still not convinced that he was necessarily showing it to the jury. My original impression was that he was breaking the fourth wall. But of course, they never bothered to TELL you anything, so we're left uncertain.
Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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Have the developers made any comments at all on what the MASON System really is or if it's going to be a gameplay mechanic in GS5? Because Benjamin Franklin is rolling in his grave right about now.
Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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RadLink5 wrote:
Apollo Justice as a whole is not as well thought out as the other games, so I think the best way to describe the MASON system is like this. Everything we did in the MASON system happened one way or another, and we just aren't given information as to how it happened. For instance, Phoenix found out about the nail polish somehow, it just wasn't seven years in the future that he figured it out. He may have learned about it in the past when he first met Kristoph and taken a guess upon seeing it in the art studio. Phoenix had always suspected Kristoph after all apparently. Regardless, when he takes the nail polish in the solitary cell in the future, he had already figured out that it was the lucky charm seven years ago. As for presenting Shadi the picture, in reality he cracked Shadi without the picture, it's just that the game designers wanted to make us talk to Brushel. So I guess I should have mentioned I don't necessarily believe he presented every piece of evidence they had us present, he may have gotten some information out of the people he spoke to slightly differently, but they're really small differences that don't make any impact on the events.
AJ did feel a bit lazy in terms of pacing and plot development, yeah. The MASON system is clearly meant to be a fourth-wall breaking plot device, which may or may not take you out of the enjoyment.
Actually, all this talk of MASON being a huge fabrication system is silly; Phoenix plainly stated from the start that he was going to make this a game for the player, making the facts presented in a non-linear fashion. It was most definitely not how it was told to the jury; If I was in the jury and this guy wants me to 'play a game' to find the truth I'd go "screw this" and go home. No, the jury would get all the facts in a video presentation (without all the evidence-traveling-through-time shenanigans) of sorts, but we get to do it differently. Because it will be highly boring otherwise to press 'A' continuously for 30+ minutes without making any choices.
I did enjoy it even if it wasn't such an example of the pacing problems in AJ. I joked with my friends that I was playing Attorney's Creed.
Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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I understand that The Mason System was supposed to be a (possibly) interactive "game" for the jurors to discover what Phoenix knows. The problem I have here is WHY is Phoenix's account of the story relevant?
Phoenix never took the stand in the final case. His information was never presented until AFTER the events of the Mason System chapter. In fact, Apollo simply says, after the Mason Chapter, that "Mr. Wright told me everything" and suddenly, Apollo has everything he needs to tie up the case nicely.
As opposed to the other cases, where it seems the Defense or Prosecution has physical evidence in their possession, Apollo doesn't even have the Yellow Envelope. In fact, the only reason we know about it, is because Phoenix claims to have evidence of it, which Kris points out, is kind of pointless. Phoenix is, as far as the average juror knows, an ex-attorney, current faux-piano player who had forged evidence in the past.
So why is Phoenix's take on the events relevant and furthermore, why is his evidence even being taken into consideration when he clearly has a motive and ties to the case at hand?
Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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I really think that nobody should have paid any heed to
at all in the final case. He's a disgraced attorney and a forger, and a startlingly unhinged shell of a man. (Except during the MASON system where he suddenly turns into a very upset, but still hopeful . He speaks completely differently when talking to Trucy, Meekins, Vera, Zak, Kristoph, Valant, Brushel and himself than he does to Apollo throughout the game and the jurists and player at the end of the game)
I really am the guy from the Objection! website, y'know! :(
Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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AmIDoinItRite wrote:
Long Time Lurker, First Time Poster, etc.
I understand that The Mason System was supposed to be a (possibly) interactive "game" for the jurors to discover what Phoenix knows. The problem I have here is WHY is Phoenix's account of the story relevant?
Phoenix never took the stand in the final case. His information was never presented until AFTER the events of the Mason System chapter. In fact, Apollo simply says, after the Mason Chapter, that "Mr. Wright told me everything" and suddenly, Apollo has everything he needs to tie up the case nicely.
As opposed to the other cases, where it seems the Defense or Prosecution has physical evidence in their possession, Apollo doesn't even have the Yellow Envelope. In fact, the only reason we know about it, is because Phoenix claims to have evidence of it, which Kris points out, is kind of pointless. Phoenix is, as far as the average juror knows, an ex-attorney, current faux-piano player who had forged evidence in the past.
So why is Phoenix's take on the events relevant and furthermore, why is his evidence even being taken into consideration when he clearly has a motive and ties to the case at hand?
I understand that The Mason System was supposed to be a (possibly) interactive "game" for the jurors to discover what Phoenix knows. The problem I have here is WHY is Phoenix's account of the story relevant?
Phoenix never took the stand in the final case. His information was never presented until AFTER the events of the Mason System chapter. In fact, Apollo simply says, after the Mason Chapter, that "Mr. Wright told me everything" and suddenly, Apollo has everything he needs to tie up the case nicely.
As opposed to the other cases, where it seems the Defense or Prosecution has physical evidence in their possession, Apollo doesn't even have the Yellow Envelope. In fact, the only reason we know about it, is because Phoenix claims to have evidence of it, which Kris points out, is kind of pointless. Phoenix is, as far as the average juror knows, an ex-attorney, current faux-piano player who had forged evidence in the past.
So why is Phoenix's take on the events relevant and furthermore, why is his evidence even being taken into consideration when he clearly has a motive and ties to the case at hand?
I'm not sure I understand the question. What happened to Phoenix is completely tied into the case in 4-4 as it was all started seven years ago and the motive for the murder is based on that forged evidence. The nail polish and the stamp were both poisoned by Kristoph seven years before and they simply didn't go off until much later (much to his dismay). The whole motive behind the poisoning was hiding that Kristoph was the one who ordered the forgery. After the Mason system is complete, Phoenix and Apollo clearly talked which is when Apollo gets all that evidence. I still think that the Mason system was simply a plot device to tell us (the player) what happened to Phoenix. We need to know what happened seven years ago because it does play a direct role in the present day case (besides they can't take away Phoenix's badge and not explain what happened). We also need to see where that evidence he hands over comes from so that we know the significance of each piece (certainly better than simply having him hand all that over). The back story they give Phoenix is very complex and they simply put off telling us what happened for too long so they had to do something like this to explain what happened. Everything was started seven years before and finally ended with this trial.
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Fanfics Updated-12/25
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Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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boboho wrote:
It was most definitely not how it was told to the jury
It's exactly how it was told to the jury. Phoenix is addressing Lamiroir, and it's by her hand that we pretty the "guilty" or "not guilty" option.
Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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Mr.D wrote:
I'm pretty sure that Phoenix shouldn't be going around reassuring jurists that they need only worry if they contributed to the development of the case.
I really think that nobody should have paid any heed to at all in the final case. He's a disgraced attorney and a forger, and a startlingly unhinged shell of a man. (Except during the MASON system where he suddenly turns into a very upset, but still hopeful . He speaks completely differently when talking to Trucy, Meekins, Vera, Zak, Kristoph, Valant, Brushel and himself than he does to Apollo throughout the game and the jurists and player at the end of the game)
I really think that nobody should have paid any heed to
at all in the final case. He's a disgraced attorney and a forger, and a startlingly unhinged shell of a man. (Except during the MASON system where he suddenly turns into a very upset, but still hopeful . He speaks completely differently when talking to Trucy, Meekins, Vera, Zak, Kristoph, Valant, Brushel and himself than he does to Apollo throughout the game and the jurists and player at the end of the game)Now, hold on. I don't think it's fair to call Phoenix a "forger". Here's how I see it: He didn't forge Magnifi's diary page, obviously. And if Phoenix never explicitly stated that the bloody ace he had was the same as the one at the crime scene (I don't remember if anyone said that exactly), then the ace wouldn't be a forgery either; it would be a mock-up. It would only be a forgery if it was meant to imitate the real bloody ace (i.e. the one at the crime scene). If Apollo were to show the ace and use it as evidence of a hypothetical to explain the defense's position (as a visual aid), it would be perfectly acceptable subterfuge to be used as demonstrative evidence in PW-land at least (someone used the bottle of "poison" as an example before, another bit of demonstrative evidence that was also a cunning bluff). I don't recall if they actually made the claim that it was the same ace, but if they did, then that would be Phoenix having a lapse of utter stupidity; the "bloody ace" by itself is not a forgery unless it's explicitly claimed to be something it's not, regardless of what Hobonix says it is.
Let me put it this way: If Phoenix had not used the phrase "forged evidence" to refer to the bloody ace, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
As for Hobonix's personality, I think it's a defense mechanism. Seven years of being away from law, and he creates a different persona for himself. The old Phoenix hasn't died, he's just locked it away because he's a new person now, a piano player and a poker master. We know that the old Phoenix is still there, because we can see flashes of it during 4-1 and in the present-day MASON System. I'd be willing to bet money that if Phoenix became a legitimate full-time defense attorney again he would be more Nick than Hobo because he would return to being who he really is (playing poker is not Phoenix's true calling; We all know the defense bench calls out to him)
Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
It's me!
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Quote:
Now, hold on. I don't think it's fair to call Phoenix a "forger".
You're right, that's inaccurate.
He's on the record as being a user of forgeries to distort the judicial system. Everything he says in the coutroom outside of his defendant testimony in Case 1 should be definitively void with regards to the record. He most certainly shouldn't be allowed to fiddle with the nature of the system, nor advise a jury (particularly because he's been supplying (questionable) evidence(?) to the defence).
Oh, right, MASON system. Umm... that. I think that's just Phoenix's way of describing his investigation to Apollo. The same way that Phoenix once looked at Mia's old case files in T&T Case 3.
I really am the guy from the Objection! website, y'know! :(
Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
Lifesmith
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Mia_Fey wrote:
I'm not sure I understand the question. What happened to Phoenix is completely tied into the case in 4-4 as it was all started seven years ago and the motive for the murder is based on that forged evidence. The nail polish and the stamp were both poisoned by Kristoph seven years before and they simply didn't go off until much later (much to his dismay). The whole motive behind the poisoning was hiding that Kristoph was the one who ordered the forgery. After the Mason system is complete, Phoenix and Apollo clearly talked which is when Apollo gets all that evidence. I still think that the Mason system was simply a plot device to tell us (the player) what happened to Phoenix. We need to know what happened seven years ago because it does play a direct role in the present day case (besides they can't take away Phoenix's badge and not explain what happened). We also need to see where that evidence he hands over comes from so that we know the significance of each piece (certainly better than simply having him hand all that over). The back story they give Phoenix is very complex and they simply put off telling us what happened for too long so they had to do something like this to explain what happened. Everything was started seven years before and finally ended with this trial.
I understand WHY the game took this path. But, your description more or less shows why it was told this way in terms of game design.
I might have worded my question oddly, I had gone out for drinks this evening after finishing the game. Personally, Mia, I'm with you. I believe that Phoenix was more or less explaining the back story via the Mason System concept. I also think it was an attempt to break the fourth wall.
I also agree with the others, however, in the belief that what we saw via the Mason System was shown to the Jurors. I think this theory has quite a bit of evidence...regardless..
My initial question was something like this.
If the events shown to us via the Mason System were also shown to the Jurors in some way shape or form, they contradict the events of the courtroom. Information, names, places and events that were previously unknown in the first act of the trial are delivered to Apollo in almost Deus Ex Machine fashion by Phoenix after we complete the Mason chapter and are only explained, loosely to the courtroom. (as to avoid redundancy in the game as we just played through those stories). As far as we know, the Jurors ONLY understand how this information was given to the the Defense via the Mason System.
HOWEVER. We also know that this information was discovered by Phoenix.
My point is.
Why would the Jurors believe Phoenix has any credibility?
It's been discussed in other threads, but for all the jurors know, Phoenix could have altered that information quite a bit. We only know it to be the true story, because the game tells us so.
Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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musouka wrote:
boboho wrote:
It was most definitely not how it was told to the jury
It's exactly how it was told to the jury. Phoenix is addressing Lamiroir, and it's by her hand that we pretty the "guilty" or "not guilty" option.
Ah, but that's only your assumption. Who's to say he wasn't talking to us during Mason, and then addressed Lamiroir on the day of the trial?
I'm still of the opinion that the Mason system, as presented in the game, is For The Player's Eyes Only. Just how much of that sequence was actually relevant to the current (State vs Vera) case? The visit to Kristoph's cell, and both visits to Drew studio. Take out everything else, and the final trial can still proceed without a hitch. All the rest is only about Phoenix trying to make sense of the Gramarye case 7 years ago. There's no need to show the jury about Zak's disappearance and reappearance, for instance. Or Valant's claim to inheritance.
As for why the higher-ups in the judicial system trusts him explicitly, to the point of making him in charge of the jurist system.. who knows? He might have gotten help from old pals Edgeworth, Lana, Fran, etc. Or he might simply have a witness/notary with him on those interviews. Or the beanie camera was connected to a live feed with witnesses watching. There are many possible reasons.
Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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The fact Phoenix IS in charge of such an important upgrade/change to the very fabric of the legal system given his disgraced status (and not even addressing it) is just one of the big plot holes in AJ which I sincerely hope is addressed in 5.
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Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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boboho wrote:
I'm still of the opinion that the Mason system, as presented in the game, is For The Player's Eyes Only.
This is how I took it as well. I didn't like it, but I didn't take it as anything other than a cheap gameplay mechanic.
The main thing that pointed that out to me: the nailpolish that has everyone so upset.
If you examine the bottle in the past, Drew reacts enough that I think it's perfectly reasonable for past!Phoenix to figure it out then. What he doesn't have is evidence tying that to Kristoph, which is what they need in the future. Also, it'd be less interesting from a gameplay point-of-view if they just let the PLAYER (not Phoenix) figure it out from there.
My preference, for that particular scene, would have been that you see the bottle in the past, with the existing reactions, then you see the future scene with Gavin, and then if you go back and re-examine the past bottle, you don't get an OMG Gavin had that, but you get Phoenix wondering more about the charm and taking down the information. Like he's done in the old games when you have to re-examine something or restart a conversation after getting more information, even when the player knows what's what -- MC Bomber comes to mind...
Also, a lot of the time, the evidence in the court record isn't ACTUALLY things Phoenix (or Apollo, or any other POV character) is actually carting about -- it's just things they know about.
Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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Writer Awakened wrote:
Just because Phoenix Wright was involved in a forgery scandal 7 years prior doesn't mean that the court wouldn't call him in as a special adviser. He's still a legendary defense attorney (the judge even comments on how extraordinary Phoenix was as a lawyer) and he's a brilliant law mind (we know this from the first three games). Seven years later, I think it's fair to give Phoenix a "second chance" at helping the legal system he obviously cares so strongly about. He ended up getting a complicated case a happy ending. How quickly we forget how to forgive...
Called in to consult? Well, I highly doubt that, but even running with that line of thinking, I don't see how you could say his role in the Mason System was anything close to an "advisor"...
Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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musouka wrote:
Writer Awakened wrote:
Just because Phoenix Wright was involved in a forgery scandal 7 years prior doesn't mean that the court wouldn't call him in as a special adviser. He's still a legendary defense attorney (the judge even comments on how extraordinary Phoenix was as a lawyer) and he's a brilliant law mind (we know this from the first three games). Seven years later, I think it's fair to give Phoenix a "second chance" at helping the legal system he obviously cares so strongly about. He ended up getting a complicated case a happy ending. How quickly we forget how to forgive...
Called in to consult? Well, I highly doubt that, but even running with that line of thinking, I don't see how you could say his role in the Mason System was anything close to an "advisor"...
Well, we know he wasn't in charge of the trial itself; in the end, the judge and the jury have the final say. Phoenix really only acted as one of the intermediaries between the courtroom and the jury, to explain their role and to present the video evidence. Also, he was involved with the process of implementing the trial-by-jury system...that was his "secret mission". The game states this multiple times. So he was advising the court in a fashion.
Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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TheRedPriest wrote:
Phoenix's role was still very large in the new test case/system though. And he wasn't involved in a "forgery scandle", he openly admitted to forging evidence. In the eyes of the court, he knowingly and willingly did it. Once you step over that line, genius lawyer or not, you have lost the trust of the court and it makes no sense to entrust such a major reboot to such a person.
Um...except he didn't forge the diary page. He "admitted" it to help protect Zak. And again, seven years. No forgiveness seems a bit harsh, especially since every witness in PW-land commits perjury at some point and is never held accountable, the prosecution changes and withholds evidence, etc. The court system respected his law mind; obviously that respect was still there even after the charges brought against him.
Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
Bitter Old Man
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Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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Of course, after 4-4 it's revealed that Phoenix was actually innocent, so in retrospect the law board made the correct decision. I see that decision as a show of goodwill on their part. It probably wasn't the most popular move amongst the law community at the time (which is probably why it was so "secret" XD) but the court put their faith in Phoenix's desire for the truth (obviously with the knowledge that they were watching him closely.)
Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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Don't PUT HIM IN CHARGE OF OVERHAULING YOUR COURT SYSTEM.
Face it--shitty writing is shitty writing.
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