Court Records :: Klavier isn't a very good prosecutor... (spoilers) : The Hydeout (GS4)

Of course they wouldn't put everything there in one game.

But they didn't put *ANYTHING* there. Klavier in 4-4 is the same as he is in 4-2. You don't learn any more about his motivations, *why* he's so interested in the truth, why he became a prosecutor, etc. Franziska and Godot both get more development and fleshing out as characters than Klavier does, and he PALES in comparison to Edgeworth.

Best prosecutor in the series is 2-4 Edgeworth. No exceptions.

kristophlover967 wrote:

One question, I'll raise is, "How exactly is Klavier lacking in development?"

4-2 Klavier = 4-4 Klavier. He stays exactly the same through the entire game, other than the short tiff with his brother at the very end of 4-4.

Lovely edit is lovely.

I move to keep the topic this way past groovy potato.

Writer, revealing parts of Klavier's personality throughout the game isn't the same as changing.

I think that the main reason people see Gavin as being weak for a prosecutor isn't his fault. Rather, it's because the game lacks a main villain.

In the other AA games, usually the villain was the prosecutor in the middle cases, and the killer for the final case (1-4 actually does both). In AJ, Klavier doesn't fit the role of "villain" at all, so it's up to the killers to take that part. Unfortunately, aside from 4-4, none of the killers really seem like a major villain.

Spoiler: 4-4 spoilers

So, there's really not a main villain for 4-2 and 4-3. Since the prosecutor has taken on the role of villian in most cases before this, the lack of any villain hurts the prosecutor more than anything else.

I'm fine with having a helpful prosecutor. The game just needs to have a strong villain elsewhere (example: Matt Engarde, Damon Gant, or Dahlia), and it needs to not cheapen your victory over the villain by giving the main "credit" to someone else (see: 4-4)

I didn't like Klavier because his character was so... unrealistic. Even for AA standards. The dude taunts his friend and coworker without missing a beat after discovering the truth about him, and barely shows any internal conflict through most of the final trial in 4-4 (besides some perfunctory "AAGH THIS DARKNESS IN ME" tripe), which would absolutely floor any realistic character. I never felt like I was in danger of losing to him like I did in the first 3 games. It always seemed like he was on my side, and not in a good 2-4 kind of way.

I thought Klavier was the perfect prosecuter, to be honest. He wasn't out to screw you at every turn, making it feel more like a game of "You vs. Witness" rather than "You vs. Prosecuter." I like his style. :rock'n:

I think we'll learn more about him in the next game.

Yeah, not a whole lot to add to the argument, but hey.

maybe he just handles the truth (and is open to the truth) better, calmer, faster, and less emo than the others - - i believe those people DO exist.

what does he need, a breakdown or some really cooly designed and yet literally meaningless words to be realistic or even be a not-flat character? - -

In addition, why is he so upset that Kristoph forged evidence and tricked him? He knew that his brother was a murderer- and as far as he knew, his brother had killed "Shadi Smith" for absolutely no reason. That isn't just unrealistic- it's out of character, especially because he showed no sign that he gave a crap about his brother being a killer.

Seether wrote:

I think we'll learn more about him in the next game.

Yeah, not a whole lot to add to the argument, but hey.

Well, like I said in my other post, I'm fine with a nice prosecutor. But in order for it to be a good story, there needs to be some kind of antagonist. (And remember, this game's got nothing other than story to hook people with, unlike more action-oriented games.) The witnesses in this game just aren't "evil" enough.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, in order for the story to be interesting, the antagonist(s) have to be enough trouble for the protagonist (Apollo) to worry about. In these games, the antagonists are the witnesses/killer and the prosecutor. In the PW games, in most of the cases the prosecutors did enough to be a serious antagonist, and for the cases where they weren't, it was usually necessary because they were working with you to an extent (mainly 1-5 and 2-4), and the witness/killer took up the role of major antagonist. That's where AJ fails in this regard, and since traditionally it's been the prosecutors that were the major villain, it's the new prosecutor that fails to live up to his predecessor's hype, so to speak.

Turn and face the strain...

He doesn't need "meaningless words"- we, the audience, need to feel that he has an appropriate response to tragic situations.
Not every person upset about a major upheaval in their lives is emo- some things warrant large responses.

Discovering that one of your good friends is a murderer and having absolutely no emotional response beyond a trite "I don't believe any of this"- which can barely be considered an emotional response in any case- is unrealistic.

I got the feeling that Klavier saw his brother as a rival, or at least as someone who is better than him and he has to measure up to, which is especially evident when Trucy makes a comment on how nervous Klavier seems during Kristoph's cross-examination.

diagram1234 wrote:

Why do people keep saying Klavier and Daryan were "friends"? Everybody is saying this, and I don't know why; they were bandmates, but they were most certainly not on good terms. You know the whole "You missed a cue" thing? And Daryan's "Tell him I said hi and 'screw you' " comment? Considering that Daryan brutally attacked a defenseless blind woman (whom Klavier wrote a song with), I think it's perfectly reasonable that Klavier would be a little pissed off at him. Also, "I don't believe any of this" is probably one of the most realistic responses to finding out something huge like that. It's shock. That's natural. Have you ever heard someone say, in real life, something along the lines of "No. No, it can't be. All this time, you've...NOOOOO!" ?

After all the stuff that happened and Daryan's completely over-the-top breakdown, it makes perfect sense that everyone in the courtroom would be speechless, just saying "Uh..."

Writer Awakened wrote:

diagram1234 wrote:

It is possible that Daryan and Klavier were never friends despite working and playing with each other for years, but Klavier's remarks that Daryan was the first detective he worked with (or something to that effect) indicate at least some affection and familiarity, possibly similar to when Phoenix described Larry as "...never close, but yeah, I know him."
Mabye it's just me, but it's hard to picture Phoenix playing air guitar and saying "Thanks for the memories, Butz," if Larry committed murder and had a major breakdown in court. Of course, Phoenix wouldn't cover for him, because truth is his number one priority, but there would be at least some regret/ sadness after the fact, as with Godot, if not a deep emotional response. Klavier shows nothing of the sort.

"And Klavier doesn't seem the type to get surprised by much, which makes the circumstances under which he learns his trusted brother was controlling him all along so emotionally powerful to watch"

If you're saying that Klavier was only surprised to find that his "trusted brother"- who Klavier knew to be a murderer by this point- was controlling him all along, then you're saying that Klavier, a man who "doesn't seem the type to get surprised by much," was more surprised about Kristoph tricking him than Kristoph killing a man in cold blood. And perhaps he was- he talked jokingly about his brother's incarceration and possible death sentence (we don't find out what his sentence was) with Apollo, after all, while being tricked by Kristoph creates an "emotionally powerful" moment. That's either a shocking lack of priority on Klavier's part, or a contradiction- ridden character.

We don't know much about how Klaiver reacted to 4-1, but in 4-4, doesn't he say to Kristoph something like "You're being accused..again..by him...again."? I got an impression from that that Klaver WAS upset about 4-1.

And the whole second half of the court phase of 4-4 was about Klavier's internal strife, what are you talking about? :meekins:

Klavier's reaction to his brother's guilt is completely different than his response to Daryan's, and there was the whole control-dynamic between him and his brother. That's absolutely realistic.

Author:	Mia_Fey [ Mon Mar 31, 2008 5:52 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Klavier isn't a very good prosecutor... (spoilers)
CantFaketheFunk wrote: Of course they wouldn't put everything there in one game. But they didn't put ANYTHING there. Klavier in 4-4 is the same as he is in 4-2. You don't learn any more about his motivations, why he's so interested in the truth, why he became a prosecutor, etc. Franziska and Godot both get more development and fleshing out as characters than Klavier does, and he PALES in comparison to Edgeworth. I don't disagree that Klavier needed more development and I hope that he gets more in the coming games (I don't think he came out as hollow as you make him out to be though. I love Franziska, but I found her to have had less development by the end of the second game then Klavier had by the end of this game), but they did go into some about why Klavier's so interested in the truth. You don't see that same devotion to truth from Klavier in Phoenix's final case. There he does seem to have a thing, at least partly, about besting Phoenix. Then we find out that he always suspected something was wrong with that trial and that its been haunting him ever since. I think living with a very serious suspicion that you had screwed up several peoples lives would be enough to cause a change in anyone. That seems to have been behind a lot of his devotion to putting the truth before everything else in the game. He has spent seven years being haunted by uncertainty and all he wants by now is the truth,

Author:	Pengy737 [ Mon Mar 31, 2008 7:23 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Klavier isn't a very good prosecutor... (spoilers)
Despite the myth that static characters are useless and uninteresting, I find them refreshing and usually the most entertaining characters. Nothing's wrong with a character having an epiphany, of course, but it isn't required to make a character interesting. @CFTF; Klavier is an extremely likable and entertaining character, in my opinion, and if you don't like him, that's fine. It's completely useless to fight over whether he's a good character or not. But you obviously aren't willing to have a prosecutor that isn't a villain/antagonizing (the struggle in this game focused around Kristoph), and you also obviously refuse to admit that your opinion isn't always right. I mean, you've started with the argument that Klavier wasn't a good prosecutor, and now you've dropped that (to an extent) and gone on to complain about his character, which is completely fine, if not a relief to me, since I've had enough of the same laughably 'antagonizing' prosecutors. I really don't think you care what you're arguing about, as long you can feel like you've won the argument.

Author:	CantFaketheFunk [ Mon Mar 31, 2008 7:57 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Klavier isn't a very good prosecutor... (spoilers)
Franziska has tremendously more development than Klavier. We learn about her motivations--her constantly chasing after Edgeworth, trying to live up to her father's impossible ideals, the fact that her reason for coming to America wasn't to take revenge on Phoenix Wright for her father, but to find Edgeworth and set him straight. That's more character establishment/depth than Klavier ever gets. And she changes as a character, too, as she loses her cases and her perfection, and in the end saves the day to bring Engarde down. Klavier helps Apollo to bring Kristoph down in 4-4... ...when he helped Apollo to bring Alita down in 4-2. And Daryan down in 4-3. @Pengy: You couldn't be farther from the truth. I would have loved a 'good guy' prosecutor if they'd done it right. Hell, two of my favorite prosecutors in the series are 2-4 Edgeworth and 3-5 Franziska, and in those cases they're both not villains or even really antagonists. But 2-4 is a special circumstance and Franziska is still fundamentally Franziska, and so the cases are exciting, not dull. Hell, before the game came out, I was really looking forward to a 'nice guy' prosecutor as a welcome change. But my issue is again, with his execution. He's bland in court despite his air guitaring, he's never exciting to go against, he makes the game feel 'easy' and doesn't feel like a very skilled prosecutor. This is all a result of what I feel is poor execution of the character rather than the concept of a non-antagonist, 'nice guy' prosecutor. And you're perfectly able to like Klavier, to find him entertaining and likable; I completely see why people would do that. Hell, for what it's worth, he amused me if nothing else. You're totally entitled to your opinion. I just think that as a character, he's criminally underdeveloped (as are all the leads in the game) and a letdown in execution rather than concept.

Author:	Pengy737 [ Mon Mar 31, 2008 8:52 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Klavier isn't a very good prosecutor... (spoilers)
Eh, sorry. It seemed to me that you pretty much didn't want him to be a 'fair' prosecutor, if only because you complained about the challenge level during tirals. This would include him supporting ridiculous theories for the sake of winning, as past prosecutors have. A fair prosecutor wouldn't go to such extremes, and Klavier is definietly that type of prosecutor. Also, I'm pretty sure the easiness of the game was intentional, as a way to up the challenge level in future AJ games. The fact that Apollo had usually easy cases (there could have been plausible theories for Klavier to argue if they were in the game) seems more of a result of the execution of the cases, not a result of Klavier's character. I still maintain my opinion that a static character is nothing to be afraid of. Really, it's kind of annoying that lack of 'development' is often used as a reason why a character is not good. Not every character must develop to be a good character, and not every developing character in a good character. Other than those couple of points, I have no problem with you not liking Klavier. I just think you might be judging his character a little to harshly, and that you were expecting a prosecutor reminiscent of the ones in the past (with a big backstory and drama).

Author:	RazeTora [ Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:40 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Klavier isn't a very good prosecutor... (spoilers)
Well, after my bland statement, and realizing grown men were coming out with better arguments on video game characters than me, I've decided to come back. I disliked Klavier. Or, that is to say, I didn't like him as much as I WANTED to. I think, frankly, I expected too much from the guy. That edge, that fierce attitude that I'd commonly associate with a character of his personality. Don't get me wrong, he had substance and just as I had fun running into Edgey, I enjoyed a conversation or two with his Apollo Justice successor. But I just felt something was missing. He seemed just a bit too unbreakable to me. Yes, Edgey was a man of emotionality. But, like Klavier, he had a darkness, living with the fear that he shot his own father, a man he admired more than anyone, and wanted to be like. In court, he'd flaw. He'd break. Whether it was a tinge of annoyance making him flustered, or something coming back to haunt him, he had his moments. Yes, Klavier can be VERY human, as shown in instances of his behavior, primarily (IMO) in case three, where he gets bothered about his "random" streak of bad luck. OUTSIDE of court. The ONLY instance I really saw some fragility in him in court was Spoiler: 4-4 When Kristoph was messing with the poor guy's head. . Other than that, nothing could shake the guy. NOW, that's not to say it's a bad thing. When you're enforcing the law, it's most likely rather important to not be an emotional basket case (Don't ask me, I'm not Tails.) But, y'know, Apollo and Phoenix had those moments of "SHIT SHIT SHIT what now?" Then again, Klavier had the maturity and intelligence to make it through law school in his teens. So that's just my opinion. Layman's terms? A bit too cool for my tastes. I DO hope that he returns in GS5,though. He had his charm about him.

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Author:	flames05 [ Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:49 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Klavier isn't a very good prosecutor... (spoilers)
i think, that for society's sake, Klavier is the best prosecuter. Unlike Edgeworth and Fransciska, he's less likely to send innocent people to jail, wouldn't resort to creating false evidence, and has a geniune care for the truth, which is what the society is after. ruthlessness and doing-no-matter-what-to-get-a-guilty-verdict doesn't make a good prosecuter, it makes a fierce one, but not necessarily a good one. I feel as if he's more realistic and caring than the other prosecuters, and more prosecuters like him could bring genuine goodness to the society. he did not crack under the defense, first of all the main character is the defense so anyone opposing "should" lose eventually, but most of all, he pushed for the truth more than anyone else. the prosecutor's job is to prosecute criminals, not indiscriminately try to put everybody in jail. I don't know what you guys' definintion of a good prosecutor is, but if a good prosecutor is good at putting the real criminals in jail, then Klavier is, in my opinion, the best prosecutor.

Author:	CantFaketheFunk [ Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Klavier isn't a very good prosecutor... (spoilers)
Best prosecutor in the series is 2-4 Edgeworth. No exceptions. And I see nothing wrong with a static character. I see problems with a FLAT character. And Klavier is both.

Author:	flames05 [ Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Klavier isn't a very good prosecutor... (spoilers)
look how long it took edgeworth to become un-flat O.o he's got 3 games and stories in every one of the three. klavier got one game...I don't think you're being fair to judge him so far. besides, I don't think Klavier is flat. just because he's not so apparently towards one specific trait (like tsundere for Edgeworth) doesn't make him flat, I think he's got a very colorful personality, it's just because he's not the dark emo type that some would think he's flat, but he's not, he's sunny, feels just like a normal human without going towards any extremes.

Author:	Pengy737 [ Tue Apr 01, 2008 2:01 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Klavier isn't a very good prosecutor... (spoilers)
CantFaketheFunk wrote: Best prosecutor in the series is 2-4 Edgeworth. No exceptions. Ha, the most celebrated are the rehabilitated? Klavier's wan't what I would call flat. He did have more composure and signifigantly less drama than previous prosecutors, but if his congeniality makes him flat, his diva tendencies should counter that.

Author:	Writer Awakened [ Tue Apr 01, 2008 4:10 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Klavier isn't a very good prosecutor... (spoilers)
XD. But Klavier is a great funkmaster... (Ha ha, I see what you did thar, Croik. :P No 3dgeworth for us, eh? :P And no ApolIo either? Wow.) Franzise Deauxnim wrote: kristophlover967 wrote: One question, I'll raise is, "How exactly is Klavier lacking in development?" 4-2 Klavier = 4-4 Klavier. He stays exactly the same through the entire game, other than the short tiff with his brother at the very end of 4-4. Wrong. Klavier in 4-2, Klavier in 4-3, flashback Klavier, and Klavier at the resolution of 4-4 are all very different. 4-2 introduces us to his easygoing side, 4-3 highlights his love of music and his dedication to his craft, and how much of a role music and touring play in his life, flashback Klavi shows a younger, cockier Klavier, and at the end of 4-4 we see him finally realize how his brother has been pulling his strings and how much he wants to know the truth. We learn about his personality without breaking the flow of the game. Maybe they didn't waste as much time with telling us how "DL6 screwed with 3dgeworth lawl let's show twenty flashbacks" (now we get twenty flashbacks to the concert, ugh >_<) but we get to know exactly enough about Klavier not to drag the game down, and exactly the right amount of development for a character that's going to return in future games...and he will. Why would they throw Klavier's life story at you in the first game if there's going to be (presumably) two more games in the ApolIo arc? If you think about it that way, it makes a lot of sense. PW1 was intended to stand alone...which is why 3dgeworth apparently had a kitchen sink in his backstory So, 4-4 was an anticlimactic, short mess, and the worst finale case in the series IMO...but that had nothing to do with Klavier. Present-day Klavier barely even showed up...which I think was part of the problem. But by the end of the game, we know a lot more about Klavier than we do in the beginning, a lot more about what makes him tick, a lot more about what his life's like. So saying that Klavier stayed "exactly the same", is just laughable, even if it is April Fool's Day today.

Author:	Millini [ Tue Apr 01, 2008 4:17 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Klavier isn't a very good funkmaster... (spoilers)
Lovely edit is lovely. I move to keep the topic this way past April Fools.

Author:	FdrlPrsctrTails [ Tue Apr 01, 2008 4:18 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Klavier isn't a very good funkmaster... (spoilers)
Millini wrote: Lovely edit is lovely. I move to keep the topic this way past groovy potato. I hear Pandora's Box creaking open...

Author:	Franzise Deauxnim [ Tue Apr 01, 2008 4:22 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Klavier isn't a very good funkmaster... (spoilers)
Writer, revealing parts of Klavier's personality throughout the game isn't the same as changing.

Author:	shira_mish [ Tue Apr 01, 2008 7:07 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Klavier isn't a very good funkmaster... (spoilers)
I also think Klavier doesn't develop much throughout the game (he is no Edgey...) he came very certain in his opinions and it doesn't change much. Yet he is interesting because there is a lot he's hiding, leaving a lot to the imagination and to the next game. I'm not sure he'll ever develop as a character but, I'm sure we'll find out more and more about him in time Spoiler: (Also about his relationship with Kristoph and the "devil") Besides, he's amazing he doesn't have to develop :-)

Author:	Emperor Ing [ Wed Apr 02, 2008 2:32 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Klavier isn't a very good funkmaster... (spoilers)
Well, here's my opinion as far as Klavier goes: I was dissapointed with him in 4-2, mainly because he didn't really do anything. He was only (in my eyes) clever like a prosecutor at two different points in the trial. And he went around with his Euro-trash rock-star attitude a bit too much (though that's to be accepted, I guess, since this was his intro case). I would rather see him put up a little bit more of a fight, even if he was a genuinly funky and groovy guy. He got a whole lot better in 4-3, where he actually seemed like he wanted Apollo to lose. And as such, his prosecutor skills increased exponentially, making the case more fun. Plus, it was fun hearing him bitch about a missed cue so much. At 4-4, he was still at the same level he was at 4-3, but Klavier was even better in the past case, because he was so much of a dick (a 17 year-old prick; isn't it wonderful), and I found myself easily agreeing with Phoenix with his barbs at Young Klavier during the trial. I liked how he got all Von Karma on us when Kristoph took the stand, but then just got fed up with his bitch crother belittling him and decided it was enough of that rubbish. If the final day would've lasted a bit longer, it would have been my favorite case... I would like to see him again, mainly because I would like to more about his past, and he has some genuinely good lines. I can already see the things he will say when Capcom recycles his animations in the next game: "The blood of a musician flows through my veins, ja? I could never forget something like that., Herr Forehead."

Author:	The Pie [ Thu Apr 03, 2008 12:10 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Klavier isn't a very good prosecutor... (spoilers)
I always figured that as long as they're easy enough to draw, then it's all good for me. /thumbs up

Author:	Sethala [ Fri Apr 04, 2008 3:08 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Klavier isn't a very good prosecutor... (spoilers)
I think that the main reason people see Gavin as being weak for a prosecutor isn't his fault. Rather, it's because the game lacks a main villain. In the other AA games, usually the villain was the prosecutor in the middle cases, and the killer for the final case (1-4 actually does both). In AJ, Klavier doesn't fit the role of "villain" at all, so it's up to the killers to take that part. Unfortunately, aside from 4-4, none of the killers really seem like a major villain. Spoiler: 4-4 spoilers For 4-4, the ending seemed more of a gimmick than anything else, you didn't really feel like -you- beat the villain, instead Phoenix did. Also, the killer was only really revealed because Drew Misham ate poison that had been sitting there for 7 years, making the whole thing pretty anticlimactic. So, there's really not a main villain for 4-2 and 4-3. Since the prosecutor has taken on the role of villian in most cases before this, the lack of any villain hurts the prosecutor more than anything else. I'm fine with having a helpful prosecutor. The game just needs to have a strong villain elsewhere (example: Matt Engarde, Damon Gant, or Dahlia), and it needs to not cheapen your victory over the villain by giving the main "credit" to someone else (see: 4-4)

Author:	Writer Awakened [ Fri Apr 04, 2008 3:33 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Klavier isn't a very good prosecutor... (spoilers)
Sethala wrote: I think that the main reason people see Gavin as being weak for a prosecutor isn't his fault. Rather, it's because the game lacks a main villain. In the other AA games, usually the villain was the prosecutor in the middle cases, and the killer for the final case (1-4 actually does both). In AJ, Klavier doesn't fit the role of "villain" at all, so it's up to the killers to take that part. Unfortunately, aside from 4-4, none of the killers really seem like a major villain. Spoiler: 4-4 spoilers For 4-4, the ending seemed more of a gimmick than anything else, you didn't really feel like -you- beat the villain, instead Phoenix did. Also, the killer was only really revealed because Drew Misham ate poison that had been sitting there for 7 years, making the whole thing pretty anticlimactic. So, there's really not a main villain for 4-2 and 4-3. Since the prosecutor has taken on the role of villian in most cases before this, the lack of any villain hurts the prosecutor more than anything else. I'm fine with having a helpful prosecutor. The game just needs to have a strong villain elsewhere (example: Matt Engarde, Damon Gant, or Dahlia), and it needs to not cheapen your victory over the villain by giving the main "credit" to someone else (see: 4-4) ^ THIS. Quoted for truth.

Author:	Whodi [ Fri Apr 04, 2008 5:17 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Klavier isn't a very good prosecutor... (spoilers)
I didn't like Klavier because his character was so... unrealistic. Even for AA standards. The dude taunts his friend and coworker without missing a beat after discovering the truth about him, and barely shows any internal conflict through most of the final trial in 4-4 (besides some perfunctory "AAGH THIS DARKNESS IN ME" tripe), which would absolutely floor any realistic character. I never felt like I was in danger of losing to him like I did in the first 3 games. It always seemed like he was on my side, and not in a good 2-4 kind of way.

Author:	flames05 [ Fri Apr 04, 2008 5:20 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Klavier isn't a very good prosecutor... (spoilers)
maybe he just handles the truth (and is open to the truth) better, calmer, faster, and less emo than the others - - i believe those people DO exist. what does he need, a breakdown or some really cooly designed and yet literally meaningless words to be realistic or even be a not-flat character? - -

Author:	Writer Awakened [ Fri Apr 04, 2008 5:26 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Klavier isn't a very good prosecutor... (spoilers)
Whodi wrote: I didn't like Klavier because his character was so... unrealistic. Even for AA standards. The dude taunts his friend and coworker without missing a beat after discovering the truth about him, and barely shows any internal conflict through most of the final trial in 4-4 (besides some perfunctory "AAGH THIS DARKNESS IN ME" tripe), which would absolutely floor any realistic character. I never felt like I was in danger of losing to him like I did in the first 3 games. It always seemed like he was on my side, and not in a good 2-4 kind of way. Klavier and Daryan weren't exactly the best of friends. In fact, I always had the impression that Klavier thought Daryan was a jerk, and when he found out about the murder, Klavi essentially went "I should have known you'd stoop this low". And the whole second half of the court phase of 4-4 was about Klavier's internal strife, what are you talking about? Klavier's reaction to his brother's guilt is completely different than his response to Daryan's, and there was the whole control-dynamic between him and his brother. That's absolutely realistic. Much more realistic than Edgeworth's scripted "You'll find out what it really means to be a defense attorney" bullshit. Compare Edgeworth's dialogue to Klavier's and you'll see a difference between how natural each one sounds.

Author:	Jacques Portsman [ Fri Apr 04, 2008 6:15 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Klavier isn't a very good prosecutor... (spoilers)
I thought Klavier was the perfect prosecuter, to be honest. He wasn't out to screw you at every turn, making it feel more like a game of "You vs. Witness" rather than "You vs. Prosecuter." I like his style. I think we'll learn more about him in the next game. Yeah, not a whole lot to add to the argument, but hey.

Author:	Sethala [ Fri Apr 04, 2008 6:39 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Klavier isn't a very good prosecutor... (spoilers)
Seether wrote: I thought Klavier was the perfect prosecuter, to be honest. He wasn't out to screw you at every turn, making it feel more like a game of "You vs. Witness" rather than "You vs. Prosecuter." I like his style. I think we'll learn more about him in the next game. Yeah, not a whole lot to add to the argument, but hey. Well, like I said in my other post, I'm fine with a nice prosecutor. But in order for it to be a good story, there needs to be some kind of antagonist. (And remember, this game's got nothing other than story to hook people with, unlike more action-oriented games.) The witnesses in this game just aren't "evil" enough. I guess what I'm trying to say is, in order for the story to be interesting, the antagonist(s) have to be enough trouble for the protagonist (Apollo) to worry about. In these games, the antagonists are the witnesses/killer and the prosecutor. In the PW games, in most of the cases the prosecutors did enough to be a serious antagonist, and for the cases where they weren't, it was usually necessary because they were working with you to an extent (mainly 1-5 and 2-4), and the witness/killer took up the role of major antagonist. That's where AJ fails in this regard, and since traditionally it's been the prosecutors that were the major villain, it's the new prosecutor that fails to live up to his predecessor's hype, so to speak.

Author:	diagram1234 [ Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:44 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Klavier isn't a very good prosecutor... (spoilers)
flames05 wrote: maybe he just handles the truth (and is open to the truth) better, calmer, faster, and less emo than the others - - i believe those people DO exist. what does he need, a breakdown or some really cooly designed and yet literally meaningless words to be realistic or even be a not-flat character? - - He doesn't need "meaningless words"- we, the audience, need to feel that he has an appropriate response to tragic situations. Not every person upset about a major upheaval in their lives is emo- some things warrant large responses. Discovering that one of your good friends is a murderer and having absolutely no emotional response beyond a trite "I don't believe any of this"- which can barely be considered an emotional response in any case- is unrealistic. In addition, why is he so upset that Kristoph forged evidence and tricked him? He knew that his brother was a murderer- and as far as he knew, his brother had killed "Shadi Smith" for absolutely no reason. That isn't just unrealistic- it's out of character, especially because he showed no sign that he gave a crap about his brother being a killer. It's possible to argue that he showed his sorrow outside of our view, but this argument doesn't hold up that well when we consider that anything we want to infer off screen must go along with Klavier's character- which this interpretation does not.

Author:	Rizuchan [ Fri Apr 04, 2008 12:06 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Klavier isn't a very good prosecutor... (spoilers)
diagram1234 wrote: In addition, why is he so upset that Kristoph forged evidence and tricked him? He knew that his brother was a murderer- and as far as he knew, his brother had killed "Shadi Smith" for absolutely no reason. That isn't just unrealistic- it's out of character, especially because he showed no sign that he gave a crap about his brother being a killer. I rather thought differently about that scene. I got the feeling like there was more to Kristoph/Klavier's relationship than meets the eye, pardon the cliche. When Klavier is talking about the case with Phoenix he tells Kristoph that that case was supposed to be him vs. his brother and was rather upset about it. I got the feeling that Klavier saw his brother as a rival, or at least as someone who is better than him and he has to measure up to, which is especially evident when Trucy makes a comment on how nervous Klavier seems during Kristoph's cross-examination. I don't mean that Klavier was happy that his brother was convicted, but rather it was sort of a load off his shoulders; he didn't have to worry about measuring up to big bro anymore, who was probably never all that nice to him in the first place. The argument could be made that Klavier was much more successful than Kristoph ever was... but then, who knows how young Kristoph was when he became a defense attorney. You know Germany, after all, he was probably like 8 or something.

Author:	Ringman [ Fri Apr 04, 2008 12:39 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Klavier isn't a very good prosecutor... (spoilers)
I wouldn't call Klavier a bad prosecutor. I mean, he figured out every case before Apollo. He simply doesn't care whether or not he wins (and is more concerned with finding the truth).

Author:	Allan's Aokage [ Fri Apr 04, 2008 6:21 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Klavier isn't a very good funkmaster... (spoilers)
Writer Awakened wrote: Turn and face the strain... Is that a Bowie Reference I see?

Author:	Writer Awakened [ Sat Apr 05, 2008 4:55 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Klavier isn't a very good prosecutor... (spoilers)
diagram1234 wrote: He doesn't need "meaningless words"- we, the audience, need to feel that he has an appropriate response to tragic situations. Not every person upset about a major upheaval in their lives is emo- some things warrant large responses. Discovering that one of your good friends is a murderer and having absolutely no emotional response beyond a trite "I don't believe any of this"- which can barely be considered an emotional response in any case- is unrealistic. Why do people keep saying Klavier and Daryan were "friends"? Everybody is saying this, and I don't know why; they were bandmates, but they were most certainly *not* on good terms. You know the whole "You missed a cue" thing? And Daryan's "Tell him I said hi and 'screw you' " comment? Considering that Daryan brutally attacked a defenseless blind woman (whom Klavier wrote a song with), I think it's perfectly reasonable that Klavier would be a little pissed off at him. Also, "I don't believe any of this" is probably one of the most realistic responses to finding out something huge like that. It's shock. That's *natural*. Have you ever heard someone say, in real life, something along the lines of "No. No, it can't be. All this time, you've...NOOOOO!" ? After all the stuff that happened and Daryan's completely over-the-top breakdown, it makes perfect sense that everyone in the courtroom would be speechless, just saying "Uh..." And Klavier doesn't seem the type to get surprised by much, which makes the circumstances under which he learns his trusted brother was controlling him all along so emotionally powerful to watch (and hence why he's so worked up then)

Author:	diagram1234 [ Sun Apr 06, 2008 6:20 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Klavier isn't a very good prosecutor... (spoilers)
Rizuchan wrote: I got the feeling that Klavier saw his brother as a rival, or at least as someone who is better than him and he has to measure up to, which is especially evident when Trucy makes a comment on how nervous Klavier seems during Kristoph's cross-examination. Your interpretation about Klavier seeing his brother as a rival is possible, however, his behavior towards constantly helping Apollo indicates an honest drive towards the truth without making it personal and selfish, much like early!Edgeworth and Godot. After all, Apollo is much more of a threat to him than his brother, who presumeably is already serving a life sentence in prison.

Author:	diagram1234 [ Sun Apr 06, 2008 6:42 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Klavier isn't a very good prosecutor... (spoilers)
Writer Awakened wrote: diagram1234 wrote: He doesn't need "meaningless words"- we, the audience, need to feel that he has an appropriate response to tragic situations. Not every person upset about a major upheaval in their lives is emo- some things warrant large responses. Discovering that one of your good friends is a murderer and having absolutely no emotional response beyond a trite "I don't believe any of this"- which can barely be considered an emotional response in any case- is unrealistic. Why do people keep saying Klavier and Daryan were "friends"? Everybody is saying this, and I don't know why; they were bandmates, but they were most certainly *not* on good terms. You know the whole "You missed a cue" thing? And Daryan's "Tell him I said hi and 'screw you' " comment? Considering that Daryan brutally attacked a defenseless blind woman (whom Klavier wrote a song with), I think it's perfectly reasonable that Klavier would be a little pissed off at him. Also, "I don't believe any of this" is probably one of the most realistic responses to finding out something huge like that. It's shock. That's *natural*. Have you ever heard someone say, in real life, something along the lines of "No. No, it can't be. All this time, you've...NOOOOO!" ? After all the stuff that happened and Daryan's completely over-the-top breakdown, it makes perfect sense that everyone in the courtroom would be speechless, just saying "Uh..." It is possible that Daryan and Klavier were never friends despite working and playing with each other for years, but Klavier's remarks that Daryan was the first detective he worked with (or something to that effect) indicate at least some affection and familiarity, possibly similar to when Phoenix described Larry as "...never close, but yeah, I know him." Mabye it's just me, but it's hard to picture Phoenix playing air guitar and saying "Thanks for the memories, Butz," if Larry committed murder and had a major breakdown in court. Of course, Phoenix wouldn't cover for him, because truth is his number one priority, but there would be at least some regret/ sadness after the fact, as with Godot, if not a deep emotional response. Klavier shows nothing of the sort. "And Klavier doesn't seem the type to get surprised by much, which makes the circumstances under which he learns his trusted brother was controlling him all along so emotionally powerful to watch" If you're saying that Klavier was only surprised to find that his "trusted brother"- who Klavier knew to be a murderer by this point- was controlling him all along, then you're saying that Klavier, a man who "doesn't seem the type to get surprised by much," was more surprised about Kristoph tricking him than Kristoph killing a man in cold blood. And perhaps he was- he talked jokingly about his brother's incarceration and possible death sentence (we don't find out what his sentence was) with Apollo, after all, while being tricked by Kristoph creates an "emotionally powerful" moment. That's either a shocking lack of priority on Klavier's part, or a contradiction- ridden character.

Author:	Emperor Ing [ Sun Apr 06, 2008 8:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Klavier isn't a very good prosecutor... (spoilers)
diagram, what was that line? I don't remember it through the playthrough... As far as things go, 4-3, albeit confusing, was the case that present Klavier got to shine, not only because he did a exponentially better job than in 4-2, and Daryan was a genuinely big enough dick (trying to kill a blind woman? What an ass!) to make me want to take him out. 4-4's Young Klavier is awesome, mainly because he is the prosecutor that we want: A ginormous dick that puts up a fight. Adding Kristoph as the villain and you got a good combo right there, with the first phase being about the prosecutor standing in your way (which was the focus of the Phoenix arc) to ending it the Apollo way (with the Witness being your main enemy). Now that I think about it, though it's too early to name a trend, that description is accurate, with the Phoenix games focusing on an evil prosecutor trying to take you down, while Apollo Justice's cases have some criminal mastermind trying to outwit you. If they can really up the difficulty of the cross-examinations (although some were already really tough), and make breaking these guys Hell-on-Earth, i think the fans will be happy and not notice a "weaker" prosecutor.

Author:	Superninfreak [ Sun Apr 06, 2008 8:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Klavier isn't a very good prosecutor... (spoilers)
diagram1234 wrote: Writer Awakened wrote: diagram1234 wrote: He doesn't need "meaningless words"- we, the audience, need to feel that he has an appropriate response to tragic situations. Not every person upset about a major upheaval in their lives is emo- some things warrant large responses. Discovering that one of your good friends is a murderer and having absolutely no emotional response beyond a trite "I don't believe any of this"- which can barely be considered an emotional response in any case- is unrealistic. Why do people keep saying Klavier and Daryan were "friends"? Everybody is saying this, and I don't know why; they were bandmates, but they were most certainly *not* on good terms. You know the whole "You missed a cue" thing? And Daryan's "Tell him I said hi and 'screw you' " comment? Considering that Daryan brutally attacked a defenseless blind woman (whom Klavier wrote a song with), I think it's perfectly reasonable that Klavier would be a little pissed off at him. Also, "I don't believe any of this" is probably one of the most realistic responses to finding out something huge like that. It's shock. That's *natural*. Have you ever heard someone say, in real life, something along the lines of "No. No, it can't be. All this time, you've...NOOOOO!" ? After all the stuff that happened and Daryan's completely over-the-top breakdown, it makes perfect sense that everyone in the courtroom would be speechless, just saying "Uh..." It is possible that Daryan and Klavier were never friends despite working and playing with each other for years, but Klavier's remarks that Daryan was the first detective he worked with (or something to that effect) indicate at least some affection and familiarity, possibly similar to when Phoenix described Larry as "...never close, but yeah, I know him." Mabye it's just me, but it's hard to picture Phoenix playing air guitar and saying "Thanks for the memories, Butz," if Larry committed murder and had a major breakdown in court. Of course, Phoenix wouldn't cover for him, because truth is his number one priority, but there would be at least some regret/ sadness after the fact, as with Godot, if not a deep emotional response. Klavier shows nothing of the sort. "And Klavier doesn't seem the type to get surprised by much, which makes the circumstances under which he learns his trusted brother was controlling him all along so emotionally powerful to watch" If you're saying that Klavier was only surprised to find that his "trusted brother"- who Klavier knew to be a murderer by this point- was controlling him all along, then you're saying that Klavier, a man who "doesn't seem the type to get surprised by much," was more surprised about Kristoph tricking him than Kristoph killing a man in cold blood. And perhaps he was- he talked jokingly about his brother's incarceration and possible death sentence (we don't find out what his sentence was) with Apollo, after all, while being tricked by Kristoph creates an "emotionally powerful" moment. That's either a shocking lack of priority on Klavier's part, or a contradiction- ridden character. We don't know much about how Klaiver reacted to 4-1, but in 4-4, doesn't he say to Kristoph something like "You're being accused..again..by him...again."? I got an impression from that that Klaver WAS upset about 4-1.

Author:	diagram1234 [ Mon Apr 07, 2008 12:33 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Klavier isn't a very good prosecutor... (spoilers)
Superninfreak wrote: We don't know much about how Klaiver reacted to 4-1, but in 4-4, doesn't he say to Kristoph something like "You're being accused..again..by him...again."? I got an impression from that that Klaver WAS upset about 4-1. Well, if he was, he got over really quickly, as by the second case he talking to Apollo (with a grin on his face) about facing the guy who bested his brother... or something like that. Almost like its all a game to him.

Author:	Whodi [ Mon Apr 07, 2008 12:41 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Klavier isn't a very good prosecutor... (spoilers)
Writer Awakened wrote: And the whole second half of the court phase of 4-4 was about Klavier's internal strife, what are you talking about? Klavier's reaction to his brother's guilt is completely different than his response to Daryan's, and there was the whole control-dynamic between him and his brother. That's absolutely realistic. I don't buy that. Like I said, its inclusion was perfunctory. He's a little more tenacious than usual, but nothing beyond that besides some sweating. Remember the part in 2-4 where Edgeworth rested his case? You knew Edgeworth was going through tremendous strife on the other side of the courtroom because he had a weighty moral decision to make, and he made the choice most people totally didn't expect him to make. He compromises his stalwart sense of justice because he can't allow Maya to die. Meanwhile, Kristoph is a hair away from admitting his guilt, and Klavier decides that some air guitar would be an appropriate response. I would've liked to see him try to fake some evidence or actually try to pursue his case rather than standing there for the whole trial saying "DAMN APOLLO YOU'RE RIGHT, THIS IS WACKY" I got excited when Klavier pointed out that you just proved that Phoenix Wright had the strongest motive for murder. Pursuing that thread of logic would've been exciting. But then the court says "Oh, isn't that quaint?" and moves on.