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Klavier isn't a very good prosecutor... (spoilers)
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Author:  Superninfreak [ Mon Apr 07, 2008 1:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Klavier isn't a very good prosecutor... (spoilers)
diagram1234 wrote:
Superninfreak wrote:
We don't know much about how Klaiver reacted to 4-1, but in 4-4, doesn't he say to Kristoph something like "You're being accused..again..by him...again."? I got an impression from that that Klaver WAS upset about 4-1.


Well, if he was, he got over really quickly, as by the second case he talking to Apollo (with a grin on his face) about facing the guy who bested his brother... or something like that. Almost like its all a game to him.


Maya sort of got over Mia's death quickly, same thing. She shows essentially no sadness about Mia's death in the 1st game after case 2.
Author:  Writer Awakened [ Mon Apr 07, 2008 1:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Klavier isn't a very good prosecutor... (spoilers)
To preface this: I agree that AJ was incredibly anticlimactic. However, I submit to the court that this wasn't Klavier's fault. Rather, it was the fault of the writers for not giving the actual villains themselves more of a fight. I was disappointed how easily Daryan and Kristoph went down, among other things. There were at least two different points Daryan could have used to cast doubt on himself, but the writers apparently didn't bite on this. And Klavier at least knew well enough that, um, it wasn't his job to defend anyone. Edgeworth, von Karma, and Godot all had a strange habit of defending the real murderers, which was...a dick move, to say the least.

Whodi wrote:
Remember the part in 2-4 where Edgeworth rested his case? You knew Edgeworth was going through tremendous strife on the other side of the courtroom because he had a weighty moral decision to make, and he made the choice most people totally didn't expect him to make. He compromises his stalwart sense of justice because he can't allow Maya to die.


Stalwart sense of justice? EDGEWORTH?! Klavier has more sense of justice in his left nut than Edgey has in his whole body! Until 2-4, Edgeworth cared about nothing but getting the W, and even in 2-4, he was more concerned about "teaching Phoenix a lesson" about how everything he had been doing up until that point wasn't "real defense attorney stuff". Edgeworth spent all of AA1 and a lot of 2-4 angsting it up, and I liked how Klavier didn't drama the whole thing up unnecessarily (he even says "I'm tired of all this youthful angst scene, anyway"). Klavier spends the entire game trying to find the truth, not the W. And again, there's that character development, the change from 17-year old "success at all costs" in the flashback case to 24-year old "uphold the law" for the rest of the game.

Let me put it this way: Everybody has a different way of coping with tragedy. So you're saying that Klavier's calm acceptance of reality is...wrong? There's something to be said about moving on.

Whodi wrote:
I would've liked to see him try to fake some evidence or actually try to pursue his case rather than standing there for the whole trial saying "DAMN APOLLO YOU'RE RIGHT, THIS IS WACKY"


Fake evidence?!? Sure, I'd like to see someone do something completely out of character for the sake of prolonging a case, too. :shoe: Glad you seem to have a high opinion on what a Prosecutor's moral standards should be. I really can't argue with this; if you guys want douchebag prosecutor #21, that's cool. That's fine. I just want something, you know...unique.
Author:  RazeTora [ Mon Apr 07, 2008 2:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Klavier isn't a very good prosecutor... (spoilers)
EDGEWORTH GIVE US YOUR LUNCH MONEY NAO!
In all seriousness, I didn't realize Edgey was so.....um..disliked.
I think the whole reason I'm not so much into Klavier is because I was so partial to Edgeworth. Transgressing from an emotional, orderly, rough-around-the-edges prosecutor to a guy who almost always smiles, speaks in random German phrases, bends over to patronize me, and would most likely RickRoll me every now and then was kind of bumpy for me. I get attached to characters, and I liked Edgey a lot. Then, suddenly:
HELLLL~O NURSE KLAVIER!
...Don't get me wrong, he's an okay character overall. But...he was missing something IMO.
No, I don't want Klavier to be an emo. Or overly-emotional. He's already been established as the somewhat arrogant but (I suppose) good-at-heart guy he is. I would not change him.
But I want some more depth to the guy. He's got the pizazz, now give him something else.
I like his integrity. I appreciate his lack of "you are inferior GTFO" (even though I get some vibes of that).
But, like I said, I'd like more fragility. Not a lot. Just a bit more.
Author:  Writer Awakened [ Mon Apr 07, 2008 2:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Klavier isn't a very good prosecutor... (spoilers)
Well, see, that's the thing: Edgeworth isn't "so disliked". Everybody likes Edgeworth. Hey, I don't dislike him. But when Edgey is the same as Manfred is the same as Fran is the same as Godot...

Well, I like a breath of fresh air. If they go two games with an easygoing prosecutor and then bring back a hard-edged mean prosecutor, I would be cool with that...
Author:  Anders [ Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Klavier isn't a very good prosecutor... (spoilers)
The thing about Klavier that I liked (career and personality-wise) is that he actually seems like the most grown-up from an emotional standpoint out of every prosecutor we've seen so far. Edgeworth starts off as every bit the patronizing ass that Manfred and Franziska are, and once that's really pointed out to him by Phoenix he jets off to Europe to "find himself" and only reappears under major circumstances. I at least give him credit for developing as the series goes on.

That aside though, every other prosecutor gets so wrapped up in everything but the case itself (you had Edgeworth's history with Phoenix, Manfred's perfect win record, Franziska's hunt for revenge, and Godot's needless antagonizing) that it becomes hard to really take them seriously. Klavier deals with his losses gracefully but puts enough fight into his cases to make them worthwhile. When Edgeworth, Franzie, and Godot are confronted about their baggage, they all tended to lash out and become defensive. You see in 4-4 how Klavier is willing to tackle his ghosts head-on, even at the risk of his own reputation.

The downside of this is that, well, he's totally clean now. He doesn't hold any grudges against Apollo and unless the writers pull something out of left field there isn't any other drama he could undergo. Unlike the past prosecutors there doesn't seem to be any more room for Klavier to develop, so there's no way I can see him being a major adversary to Apollo the way Edgeworth was to Phoenix.
Author:  diagram1234 [ Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Klavier isn't a very good prosecutor... (spoilers)
Superninfreak wrote:
diagram1234 wrote:
Superninfreak wrote:
We don't know much about how Klaiver reacted to 4-1, but in 4-4, doesn't he say to Kristoph something like "You're being accused..again..by him...again."? I got an impression from that that Klaver WAS upset about 4-1.


Well, if he was, he got over really quickly, as by the second case he talking to Apollo (with a grin on his face) about facing the guy who bested his brother... or something like that. Almost like its all a game to him.


Maya sort of got over Mia's death quickly, same thing. She shows essentially no sadness about Mia's death in the 1st game after case 2.


Maya mentions missing her sister several times during the third game.
In addition, Mia's death is a total fake-out. She keeps coming back. I mean, she's channeled to give morale boosting speeches, to help Phoenix in court, and to help Maya in desperate situations. It's hard to take her death too seriously.
The fact that dead!Mia constantly plays a role in Phoenix and Maya's lives, and yet Maya still shows more sadness over Mia's death than Klavier is in fact more evidence that he is either badly written or a very cold person.

Also, I really don't think comparing Mia and Maya to the Gavins is appropriate. I can't see Maya going to Redd White and laughing about facing the man that killed her sister.

Other characters in Apollo Justice don't show appropriate emotional responses either. The fact that Vera can function after her father's death is strange- she is agrophobic, and this man is her only company and source of love for her entire life since her mother left/ died (can't remember which). I would imagine her to be completely devestated.
Trucy's father abandons her, and this eight year old girl immedietly and cheerfully goes about accepting her new father and decorating his office. After the death of her real father, she shows no sadness, and instead says that at least she has another father.
People in the Phoenix Wright games, however, do for the most part show approprate emotional responses. Even Max showed regret at the passing of Mr. Berry.

This is important to mention, because Klavier fits in with the other characters in terms of his unrealistic reponses to important emotional events.
Author:  diagram1234 [ Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Klavier isn't a very good prosecutor... (spoilers)
Writer Awakened wrote:
And the whole second half of the court phase of 4-4 was about Klavier's internal strife, what are you talking about? :meekins: Klavier's reaction to his brother's guilt is completely different than his response to Daryan's, and there was the whole control-dynamic between him and his brother. That's absolutely realistic.


You're right. Klavier's actions in the final case would have been realistic- had Klavier's reaction to his brother's guilt to tricking him corresponded with his reaction to his brother murdering a man for no reason (as far as Klavier knew). Yes, I'm aware that we don't get to see this reaction, but we see that a few days/ weeks after his brother's sentencing, he is joking around with the man he believes is responsible for his brother's incarceration.
Do you think that Klavier will be joking about Kristoph's trickery of him in a few days time?
Honestly, I can't tell if he's supposed to be such a contradictory character or if he's just badly written.
Author:  Mia_Fey [ Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Klavier isn't a very good prosecutor... (spoilers)
diagram1234 wrote:
Maya mentions missing her sister several times during the third game.
In addition, Mia's death is a total fake-out. She keeps coming back. I mean, she's channeled to give morale boosting speeches, to help Phoenix in court, and to help Maya in desperate situations. It's hard to take her death too seriously.
The fact that dead!Mia constantly plays a role in Phoenix and Maya's lives, and yet Maya still shows more sadness over Mia's death than Klavier is in fact more evidence that he is either badly written or a very cold person.

Also, I really don't think comparing Mia and Maya to the Gavins is appropriate. I can't see Maya going to Redd White and laughing about facing the man that killed her sister.

Other characters in Apollo Justice don't show appropriate emotional responses either. The fact that Vera can function after her father's death is strange- she is agrophobic, and this man is her only company and source of love for her entire life since her mother left/ died (can't remember which). I would imagine her to be completely devestated.
Trucy's father abandons her, and this eight year old girl immedietly and cheerfully goes about accepting her new father and decorating his office. After the death of her real father, she shows no sadness, and instead says that at least she has another father.
People in the Phoenix Wright games, however, do for the most part show approprate emotional responses. Even Max showed regret at the passing of Mr. Berry.

This is important to mention, because Klavier fits in with the other characters in terms of his unrealistic reponses to important emotional events.


Off topic for just a second. We do see instances of Trucy's pain, but she is resilient and has had seven years to cope with losing her father (and more for losing her mother). The fact that still see that it really does hurt strikes me as very realistic. No, after seven years I wouldn't expect Trucy to be falling over at the mere mention of her father. The fact that she accepts Phoenix so quickly as her father is a mixture of her own personality (she clearly becomes attached to people quickly which is a real trait some people have) and her own resilience (she may miss her father, but she has to push on as best she can. Her father has told her that she can trust Phoenix and that he would return, so she trusts her father's words as many little kids would do). I'd also throw in bad writing from the Mason System which is clearly abridged to just give us an idea of what happened in Phoenix's past. She has had time to deal with her grief which is very different from Maya's reaction to her sister's death.

Only a month afterward, Maya seems to show nothing about her sister's death. The fact that she does mention it in later games can't be used against the characters from this game. Maya does not mention it in the first game and, in particular, only a month after Mia's death. As close as we know they were (even in that game), that seems very strange and unrealistic. Also, comparing a character developed over the course of three games with characters who haven't had that opportunity doesn't work. If you want to truly compare them then it has to be on a one game's worth of development basis because that is all the time the new characters have had. Not to mention that the set up for at least the first PW game was as a stand alone game, while this one was created with the knowledge that there will be a GS5 so the set up is purposely different. Its clear that further development is planned. I must say that I found both Trucy's and Klavier's reactions pretty realistic.

Okay, I'm done ranting now. Being back on topic is a good thing. I'll behave now. <_< If we want to continue this, then it should be taken to another topic. This one is about Klavier.
Author:  diagram1234 [ Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Klavier isn't a very good prosecutor... (spoilers)
Writer Awakened wrote:

Edgeworth spent all of AA1 and a lot of 2-4 angsting it up, and I liked how Klavier didn't drama the whole thing up unnecessarily (he even says "I'm tired of all this youthful angst scene, anyway"). Klavier spends the entire game trying to find the truth, not the W. And again, there's that character development, the change from 17-year old "success at all costs" in the flashback case to 24-year old "uphold the law" for the rest of the game.

Let me put it this way: Everybody has a different way of coping with tragedy. So you're saying that Klavier's calm acceptance of reality is...wrong? There's something to be said about moving on.



Klavier's "calm acceptance of reality" is not contradictory in and of itself (though it is extremely strange. I have never met anyone who would joke about their brother's death sentence, no matter how evil he happens to be. However, this point is not a basis for concrete debate).

What I have the biggest problem with is that his character is inconsistant, as I have already said several times. While he laughs about his murderous brother with Apollo Justice , suddenly the possibility that his brother may have tricked him seven years ago causes "darkness in his heart." So did he care about his brother or not? If he did, he would have been upset about his brother's murder of "Shadi Smith", also making his sadness in the 4th case appropriate. If he didn't he shouldn't have been upset about his brother giving him false information seven years ago, but making his lack of sadness about his brother bring a murderer an approprate reaction. Either way, he's a contradictory character.

Also, I'm not certain that having a character with the main goal of upholding justice and truth for 3/4 of the game and then showing a short flashback of him during the last case being more driven to win than his current self (Despite what you claim, there is no proof that Klavier was determined to "succeed at all costs"- just that he was more confident interested in winning) counts as significant character development.

It's like claiming that since Mia was shown to have once been a nervous rookie in a flashback, she's had significant character development. After all, she develops from a nervous young woman to a confident older woman. (Not that I'm complaining- Mia's a static character, but she's still a well-written character)
Author:  Whodi [ Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Klavier isn't a very good prosecutor... (spoilers)
Writer Awakened wrote:
Stalwart sense of justice? EDGEWORTH?! Klavier has more sense of justice in his left nut than Edgey has in his whole body! Until 2-4, Edgeworth cared about nothing but getting the W, and even in 2-4, he was more concerned about "teaching Phoenix a lesson" about how everything he had been doing up until that point wasn't "real defense attorney stuff". Edgeworth spent all of AA1 and a lot of 2-4 angsting it up, and I liked how Klavier didn't drama the whole thing up unnecessarily (he even says "I'm tired of all this youthful angst scene, anyway"). Klavier spends the entire game trying to find the truth, not the W. And again, there's that character development, the change from 17-year old "success at all costs" in the flashback case to 24-year old "uphold the law" for the rest of the game.


OK, so if he was just concerned about getting the guilty verdict, why did he accept losing the case to save Maya? The entire presentation of Edgeworth in 2-4 shows how he's matured and changed his opinion on justice while he was away.

Writer Awakened wrote:
Let me put it this way: Everybody has a different way of coping with tragedy. So you're saying that Klavier's calm acceptance of reality is...wrong? There's something to be said about moving on.


It's the inconsistency that bothers me. He goes from the darkness speech to some air guitar and flippant comments. I wasn't impressed by his dialogue with Kristoph, either. It takes weight away from the situation when he doesn't act much differently when bantering with Ema or Apollo outside the courtroom, and finding out that his brother is a sociopath and a murderer.

Writer Awakened wrote:
Fake evidence?!? Sure, I'd like to see someone do something completely out of character for the sake of prolonging a case, too. :shoe: Glad you seem to have a high opinion on what a Prosecutor's moral standards should be. I really can't argue with this; if you guys want douchebag prosecutor #21, that's cool. That's fine. I just want something, you know...unique.


Such a change would have added another layer of depth to his character simply because it would be so uncharacteristic. See Edgeworth's uncharacteristic throwing of the trial in 2-4. It reveals a tremendous amount about him with just a few lines and one uncomfortable animation.

There's a saying that good writing shows ideas rather than telling them. We get a lot of "telling" about Klavier's experience in the game but very little "showing." There's plenty of times where he talk about how painful this case is, but it's meaningless in the face of how he acts most of the time. This whole game is about turnabouts, but there's never a turnabout in his personality. I didn't find anything about his character particularly engaging. He was along for the ride.
Author:  Aevitas [ Thu Apr 10, 2008 5:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Klavier isn't a very good prosecutor... (spoilers)
I did think that Klavier had too many smiling sprites during the game, so when 4-4 started to get really serious, and they reused those sprites with him smiling, it takes away from the seriousness of his character. For example, when he does his pointing pose, he's always smirking. It doesn't always work in the situations in the game, and I kind of wished the animators picked up on that. Or when he, Kristoph, and Apollo were duking it out, his static pose always has him smiling. And then switching to his sweating pose changes the mood a little too abruptly. Might be why lots of people get confused with his personality.
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