Case 3 of AJ doesn't make much sense to me... Spoilers

Sun Mar 30, 2008 11:30 pm

Superninfreak

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1. Why is there basically no mention of wether the defendent's arm was injured or not? It was a kid that supposedly used a gun that could dislocate an ADULT'S arm. Wether Machi's arm was broken or something would prove wether he did it or not.

2. Why did Valant do the 1st part of Lamiroir's song? He seemed to be on longer than she did, why didn't he run through the thing and do the ending? And why did Lamiroir even run through the thing instead of just waiting on the other side?

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Re: Case 3 of AJ doesn't make much sense to me... Spoilers

Sun Mar 30, 2008 11:40 pm

Mia_Fey

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1) Simply contradictory. There were a few plot holes in that case. Hell, the bigger problem I have is that Machi couldn't have moved the body alone. Oh well *shrugs*
2) Valant was only on stage for a couple of minutes. It's only Valant from when the stage rises until Lamiroir's "disappearance." Remember, the longer they use a double, the more there is a chance for a mistake or that someone might see through the illusion, so it needed to be Lamiroir for as long as they could keep her on stage.

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Re: Case 3 of AJ doesn't make much sense to me... Spoilers

Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:05 am

Superninfreak

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Mia_Fey wrote:

1) Simply contradictory. There were a few plot holes in that case. Hell, the bigger problem I have is that Machi couldn't have moved the body alone. Oh well *shrugs*
2) Valant was only on stage for a couple of minutes. It's only Valant from when the stage rises until Lamiroir's "disappearance." Remember, the longer they use a double, the more there is a chance for a mistake or that someone might see through the illusion, so it needed to be Lamiroir for as long as they could keep her on stage.

2. I think you misunderstood me or something. I thought Valant was "Lamiroir" from a little bit before the song started until the disappearance, and then Lamiroir was only there on top of the tower. And it still doesn't adress why Lamiroir did that run at all and didn't just wait right near the entrance to the tower.

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Re: Case 3 of AJ doesn't make much sense to me... Spoilers

Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:29 am

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Superninfreak wrote:

Mia_Fey wrote:

1) Simply contradictory. There were a few plot holes in that case. Hell, the bigger problem I have is that Machi couldn't have moved the body alone. Oh well *shrugs*
2) Valant was only on stage for a couple of minutes. It's only Valant from when the stage rises until Lamiroir's "disappearance." Remember, the longer they use a double, the more there is a chance for a mistake or that someone might see through the illusion, so it needed to be Lamiroir for as long as they could keep her on stage.

2. I think you misunderstood me or something. I thought Valant was "Lamiroir" from a little bit before the song started until the disappearance, and then Lamiroir was only there on top of the tower. And it still doesn't adress why Lamiroir did that run at all and didn't just wait right near the entrance to the tower.

Don't bother pointing it out, no-one is going to listen. XD Trust me, I've tried. >>

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Re: Case 3 of AJ doesn't make much sense to me... Spoilers

Mon Mar 31, 2008 5:42 am

Mia_Fey

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Superninfreak wrote:

2. I think you misunderstood me or something. I thought Valant was "Lamiroir" from a little bit before the song started until the disappearance, and then Lamiroir was only there on top of the tower. And it still doesn't adress why Lamiroir did that run at all and didn't just wait right near the entrance to the tower.

Ah, I see. I apologize. All I can guess is that Klavier wanted as much of the concert to be as real as possible. He does mention that the reason that she had to continue singing while she did the run instead of using a tape was because his stuff is completely live and he didn't wish to cheapen his concert by using a tape. In this case, he would have had to sacrifice some of that "reality" for Lamiroir to disappear, but perhaps he simply wished to cut back on that as much as possible. Her being off the stage two minutes isn't much. I don't believe its specifically addressed in the game though. Did I address the correct point this time? If not please let me know and I'll give it some more thought. :)

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Re: Case 3 of AJ doesn't make much sense to me... Spoilers

Tue Apr 01, 2008 4:00 am

Superninfreak

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Mia_Fey wrote:

Superninfreak wrote:

2. I think you misunderstood me or something. I thought Valant was "Lamiroir" from a little bit before the song started until the disappearance, and then Lamiroir was only there on top of the tower. And it still doesn't adress why Lamiroir did that run at all and didn't just wait right near the entrance to the tower.

Ah, I see. I apologize. All I can guess is that Klavier wanted as much of the concert to be as real as possible. He does mention that the reason that she had to continue singing while she did the run instead of using a tape was because his stuff is completely live and he didn't wish to cheapen his concert by using a tape. In this case, he would have had to sacrifice some of that "reality" for Lamiroir to disappear, but perhaps he simply wished to cut back on that as much as possible. Her being off the stage two minutes isn't much. I don't believe its specifically addressed in the game though. Did I address the correct point this time? If not please let me know and I'll give it some more thought. :)

But if the song is a little over 2 minutes long.... it's a big deal. And I don't really see what singing had to do with it. She could sing from by the tower that she re-appeared on and just wait to pop up, or better yet, sing under the trap door on the stage tower that she used to disappear and just have Valant be waiting right by where he would come out until his time. The point is, Valant was used more than Lamiroir in the song (as far as seeing them is concerned) when there was no reason too, except for Lamiroir to witness the crime.

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Re: Case 3 of AJ doesn't make much sense to me... Spoilers

Tue Apr 01, 2008 4:38 am

Mia_Fey

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I'm afraid I can't think of a better answer. I like the case, but there are some plot holes in it. There are plenty of worse ones in the case. They needed her to hear the crime. That's the real answer. Besides, people don't always think things out rationally, so that could simply be that situation.

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Re: Case 3 of AJ doesn't make much sense to me... Spoilers

Tue Apr 01, 2008 4:41 am

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I just want to point out that the Prosecution bringing charges against Machi is probably in-game stupidity of the Prosecutor's office and not the developers themselves (though why you can't point out the myriad reasons why it's a bullshit accusation against Machi is beyond me XD)

Yeah, 4-3 had a lot of plotholes, but I loved it anyway :D Actually, AJ in general had a lot of plotholes...

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Re: Case 3 of AJ doesn't make much sense to me... Spoilers

Tue Apr 01, 2008 4:52 am

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Ah, but didn't Klavier say that the higher ups were pushing him to end this case quickly, hence the hasty arrest?

Re: Case 3 of AJ doesn't make much sense to me... Spoilers

Wed Apr 02, 2008 7:35 am

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Ahh, that's a good point, forgot about the "hasty arrest" bit. Not too surprised that haste is used when dealing with foreign countries...

Anyway. Here's what I don't get about the song.

Lamiroir has to go from the raised platform in front to the one in the back. She had some time to do it, because it was really Valant on the raised platform.

What I -don't- get, is why she couldn't just spend the entire performance (minus the bit where she goes on stage) on the back platform, or near it? Someone else mentioned that Valant only took over when the stage was raised, but then I have to wonder how exactly they get swapped mid-song without some fancy "trick".

Re: Case 3 of AJ doesn't make much sense to me... Spoilers

Wed Apr 02, 2008 3:36 pm

Lisabasil1959

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yes, I was a bit put off, if that gun could dislocate an adults arm wouldn't Machi be WITHOUT an arm after firing it TWICE??? :/

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Re: Case 3 of AJ doesn't make much sense to me... Spoilers

Wed Apr 02, 2008 9:08 pm

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The whole case is a mess and totally ruins the game anyway

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Re: Case 3 of AJ doesn't make much sense to me... Spoilers

Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:08 pm

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The only reason they have that case is to introduce Lamiroir.

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Re: Case 3 of AJ doesn't make much sense to me... Spoilers

Wed Apr 02, 2008 11:08 pm

Mia_Fey

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Well, I'm not sure I'd categorize the case as bad simply because it has some plot holes. It's not the first case to suffer from that issue, although I'll concede that this has some rather serious ones. On the other hand, I still rather enjoyed it. Also, the case was there for far more then simply introducing the Lamiroir, although that is part of it. It also completes the set-up for the big problem in the court system that needs to be fixed which has been hinted at a few times in the previous two cases, but the third case is there to really drive this point home so that we are ready to deal with it in the fourth case. Also, I wouldn't be surprised to find that some of the insanity in this case, like the fact that Machi was on trial for murder at all, was intended to further this point. The whole point of the jury system was the introduction of common sense into the court system and that is something this case certainly lacks. According to the evidence, only Machi could have done it (after all, he was the only one who could have escaped from the room at the time before being spotted), but his being the murderer doesn't make much sense. But as is pointed out, the law at that point in time is not effected by common sense. Anyway, we're talking some serious plot development here. They really didn't have a filler case in this game. All the cases were related to the main plot in some way.

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Re: Case 3 of AJ doesn't make much sense to me... Spoilers

Thu Apr 03, 2008 4:48 pm

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Yeah, but most cases don't have plot holes as huge and glaring as this. Also, they were the first that really bothered me.

Why not check for fingerprints on the gun? Case over!

Re: Case 3 of AJ doesn't make much sense to me... Spoilers

Thu Apr 03, 2008 8:41 pm

Mia_Fey

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Well to be fair, when has a lack of fingerprints ever stopped the prosecution? Klavier could simply have argued that Machi wore gloves. He wasn't arrested until a while after the crime, so saying that he wore gloves during the crime and then ditched them somewhere afterward before his arrest is actually not that much of a stretch.

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Re: Case 3 of AJ doesn't make much sense to me... Spoilers

Thu Apr 03, 2008 9:17 pm

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I dunno if this has been mentioned yet, but when Valant and Lamiroir did the disappearing trick, Valant just tossed the cape up and he disappeared, that doesn't make sense, I don't think there was ever a mention of a hole or anything on the stage he could have fallen through, and it would have been noticable on the tape.

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Re: Case 3 of AJ doesn't make much sense to me... Spoilers

Thu Apr 03, 2008 9:36 pm

Mia_Fey

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I could be wrong, but I could swear I remember hearing that there was a little escape exit beneath the tower Klavier and Valant were standing on. I would need to watch the video again, but doesn't Klavier take a little extra time holding on to the cape before pulling it off (I'm pretty positive that Valant doesn't take off the cape. Klavier does.)? I could swear that he stood in front of her for a moment or two holding on to the cape before pulling it off in a big sweep. He would only need to hold it for a extra seconds for Valant to get out of the way and since he was blocking it from view while holding it to a semi-accurate shape (particularly when the audience is a distance away), I can see that working. Remember, Valant is a professional magician even if he didn't have his partner's skills. To do some advanced tricks, he would have to be able to move quickly and silently or risk giving himself away.

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Re: Case 3 of AJ doesn't make much sense to me... Spoilers

Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:08 pm

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Oh yeah, sorry for that, it is Klavier who pulls the cape off. I dunno about the trapdoor escape thing, it's the only logical conclusion, but I don't remember seeing one. It's possible I just missed it though..

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Re: Case 3 of AJ doesn't make much sense to me... Spoilers

Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:45 pm

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I have a question actually. When did Daryan press the switch? I was arguing with my friend about it and he said that he did it on stage but how would he do that? My friend said that it was because he messed up on the guitar but the game explained that he messed up because his hand was hurting because of the recoil on the revolver.

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Re: Case 3 of AJ doesn't make much sense to me... Spoilers

Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:49 pm

AgostonF

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Snafoo wrote:

I have a question actually. When did Daryan press the switch? I was arguing with my friend about it and he said that he did it on stage but how would he do that? My friend said that it was because he messed up on the guitar but the game explained that he messed up because his hand was hurting because of the recoil on the revolver.

IIRC, it was Machi who pressed the switch. On the mixing tape thing it was established that Machi only played with one hand during one of the easier parts of the song and used the other hand to press the switch. You're talking about the switch that lit Klavier's guitar on fire, not the one for the fireworks, right?

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Re: Case 3 of AJ doesn't make much sense to me... Spoilers

Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:57 pm

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AgostonF wrote:

Snafoo wrote:

I have a question actually. When did Daryan press the switch? I was arguing with my friend about it and he said that he did it on stage but how would he do that? My friend said that it was because he messed up on the guitar but the game explained that he messed up because his hand was hurting because of the recoil on the revolver.

IIRC, it was Machi who pressed the switch. On the mixing tape thing it was established that Machi only played with one hand during one of the easier parts of the song and used the other hand to press the switch. You're talking about the switch that lit Klavier's guitar on fire, not the one for the fireworks, right?

Nope, sorry, the other one.

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Re: Case 3 of AJ doesn't make much sense to me... Spoilers

Thu Apr 03, 2008 11:03 pm

Mia_Fey

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You mean to set off the firecrackers? I wouldn't be shocked to find that there was a lull in the music long enough that Daryan could have pushed it. Besides, he's not the only guitar on stage, so we don't know that he was playing the whole time. We just know that he was on stage that whole time. If Klavier ever did a guitar solo (which I find likely if we factor in his personality), Daryan's hands would be free for a couple moments.

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Re: Case 3 of AJ doesn't make much sense to me... Spoilers

Thu Apr 03, 2008 11:11 pm

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Mia_Fey wrote:

You mean to set off the firecrackers? I wouldn't be shocked to find that there was a lull in the music long enough that Daryan could have pushed it. Besides, he's not the only guitar on stage, so we don't know that he was playing the whole time. We just know that he was on stage that whole time. If Klavier ever did a guitar solo (which I find likely if we factor in his personality), Daryan's hands would be free for a couple moments.

Sounds a little too convenient. I'm keeping my eyes on you...

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Re: Case 3 of AJ doesn't make much sense to me... Spoilers

Thu Apr 03, 2008 11:13 pm

AgostonF

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Yeah, during Klavier's solo would be possible. He could have even put it in his shoe and leaned on the button or something.

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Re: Case 3 of AJ doesn't make much sense to me... Spoilers

Fri Apr 04, 2008 1:51 am

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I was a bit surprised when they attributed Darian's missed cue to his arm being messed up. I figured that was when he pressed the switch for the second set of firecrackers.

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Re: Case 3 of AJ doesn't make much sense to me... Spoilers

Fri Apr 04, 2008 3:27 am

AgostonF

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I don't think that's possible, because he was still playing the guitar, he was just sucking at it. It didn't abruptly stop or anything it just messed up.

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Re: Case 3 of AJ doesn't make much sense to me... Spoilers

Fri Apr 04, 2008 4:04 am

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I would like to reiterate: The prosecution stupidly bringing charges against Machi is not a plot hole. It was, as explained by Klavier, a hasty rush to arrest someone whom they honestly believed was the only one to have committed the crime (because of Machi's fingerprints on the air duct, etc.). The DA's office isn't exactly the brightest in the building, so to speak. But it's not a plot hole; the facts of the crime scene fit perfectly when you consider Daryan as the actual murderer.

What didn't make sense, however, was Lamiroir just hanging out in the air duct; also, why Lamiroir, after being struck on the head, could have somehow ran far enough away to get to the dark stage before being struck again. I highly doubt Daryan thought, "Well, I hit her once, so I'm going to wait until she stumbles away into the darkness before I follow her." After striking her on the head, he could have easily hit her again while she was disoriented, especially since she was blind and stumbling around. Besides Daryan being a humongous asshole, it also just doesn't make any sense.

I was disappointed Daryan's cornering was so easily, especially since the developers could have easily made the case fuller and longer by bringing the attack and the weapon used in the assault into the case as proof of Daryan's crimes.

Oh well.

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Re: Case 3 of AJ doesn't make much sense to me... Spoilers

Fri Apr 04, 2008 4:30 am

AgostonF

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Writer Awakened wrote:

What didn't make sense, however, was Lamiroir just hanging out in the air duct

Yeah, they never explain what Lamiroir was doing before she crawled through the duct, I imagine that since she was doing the disappearing act, it would be a better idea for her to wait just below the platform until her cue to come out, instead of being placed somewhere farther away having to run through the duct to make it in time.

I don't remember the other stuff clearly so I don't wanna post something just for the sake of it and mess it up.

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Re: Case 3 of AJ doesn't make much sense to me... Spoilers

Sat Apr 05, 2008 3:30 am

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Mia_Fey wrote:

You mean to set off the firecrackers? I wouldn't be shocked to find that there was a lull in the music long enough that Daryan could have pushed it. Besides, he's not the only guitar on stage, so we don't know that he was playing the whole time. We just know that he was on stage that whole time. If Klavier ever did a guitar solo (which I find likely if we factor in his personality), Daryan's hands would be free for a couple moments.

1. The game says he messed up because he was hurt.
2. Listen to Guilty Love on the Mixing Board, Daryan was playing. Remember? Klaiver got mad at him for messing up? Was there a point where he did nothing?

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Re: Case 3 of AJ doesn't make much sense to me... Spoilers

Sat Apr 05, 2008 3:51 am

Mia_Fey

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We only hear a part of the song and the game doesn't go into how he pushed the button. I have no doubt that Daryan was playing for a large part of the song, but I would say there is a decent possibility that there could have been a really brief period where he didn't have to play (it doesn't take much time to push a button). It's not really an unusual thing to have happen. Hell, he could have even positioned it in a pocket so that he could lean against it to set it off. Remember that he's a smart guy and his life was on the line if he didn't find some way to give himself an alibi, so he probably could have worked something out.

Edit: I don't know why this didn't occur to me sooner. I was just thinking about how you play a guitar. It is true that both hands are used. One hand strums the strings and the other sits at the top to control the sound the strings give off when hit. The trigger itself was rather small and thin, so it would probably have fit easily in a person's hand particularly when that hand was curved like it would be around a guitar's neck. If he held it with his top hand and hid it behind the guitar's neck, he could probably spare one finger while playing to hit the button quickly when needed or even just bump it into the guitar to set it off.

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Re: Case 3 of AJ doesn't make much sense to me... Spoilers

Sat Apr 05, 2008 10:14 am

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Mia_Fey wrote:

I could be wrong, but I could swear I remember hearing that there was a little escape exit beneath the tower Klavier and Valant were standing on.

I watched the video enough times during the case to spot hatches on both platforms at the spots where Lamiroir is and would be.

Re: Case 3 of AJ doesn't make much sense to me... Spoilers

Sat Apr 05, 2008 11:00 am

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Mia_Fey wrote:

Well to be fair, when has a lack of fingerprints ever stopped the prosecution? Klavier could simply have argued that Machi wore gloves. He wasn't arrested until a while after the crime, so saying that he wore gloves during the crime and then ditched them somewhere afterward before his arrest is actually not that much of a stretch.

But it was never brought up at all. Plus, the gunman is shown in the pictures as wearing no gloves, and Daryan is never shown wearing any.

Re: Case 3 of AJ doesn't make much sense to me... Spoilers

Sat Apr 05, 2008 6:46 pm

Mia_Fey

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Tinker wrote:

But it was never brought up at all. Plus, the gunman is shown in the pictures as wearing no gloves, and Daryan is never shown wearing any.

To be fair though, not having any prints on the gun certainly doesn't rule Machi out as a murderer unless someone else's prints had been found and that was unlikely in the circumstances. Daryan would not have left prints on the weapon (he's a cop who would certainly know how to clean his prints off a gun and had plenty of time since the victim wasn't even found until the third act). Think about all the cases where a lack of fingerprints made no difference. In 1-1, Larry's prints aren't on the weapon, but this doesn't matter because of the witness. In 1-2, Maya's prints aren't on the Thinker, but no one cares. In 1-3, Will's print's aren't on the spear, but this doesn't matter. In 2-3, a weapon isn't even found, but this doesn't stop them from almost convicting Max. It goes on, but those are a few examples. A lack of prints doesn't clear anyone particularly since the burden of proof always falls to the defense. Apollo couldn't have proven that Machi hadn't worn gloves, so it was a moot point. Klavier even states something like although there was no decisive evidence left, the fact that killer could escape from the scene without being spotted was, in itself, decisive evidence because only Machi was small enough to fit through the air vent.

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Re: Case 3 of AJ doesn't make much sense to me... Spoilers

Sat Apr 05, 2008 7:58 pm

Writer Awakened

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Yeah, it's true, even if the murderer doesn't wear gloves, it's extremely easy to wipe down a murder weapon, and again, Klavier's superiors at the DA aren't exactly the brightest bulbs in the box :moe-laugh:

My various AA stories (Nick/Maya, Adrian/Celeste, Krissi/Dollie, Klavilami, general stuff, etc). All comments, feedback, and reviews are greatly appreciated! :D

Re: Case 3 of AJ doesn't make much sense to me... Spoilers

Sun Apr 06, 2008 9:27 am

Tinker

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Mia_Fey wrote:

To be fair though, not having any prints on the gun certainly doesn't rule Machi out as a murderer unless someone else's prints had been found and that was unlikely in the circumstances. Daryan would not have left prints on the weapon (he's a cop who would certainly know how to clean his prints off a gun and had plenty of time since the victim wasn't even found until the third act). Think about all the cases where a lack of fingerprints made no difference. In 1-1, Larry's prints aren't on the weapon, but this doesn't matter because of the witness. In 1-2, Maya's prints aren't on the Thinker, but no one cares. In 1-3, Will's print's aren't on the spear, but this doesn't matter. In 2-3, a weapon isn't even found, but this doesn't stop them from almost convicting Max. It goes on, but those are a few examples. A lack of prints doesn't clear anyone particularly since the burden of proof always falls to the defense. Apollo couldn't have proven that Machi hadn't worn gloves, so it was a moot point. Klavier even states something like although there was no decisive evidence left, the fact that killer could escape from the scene without being spotted was, in itself, decisive evidence because only Machi was small enough to fit through the air vent.

I know that, but I'm so accustomed to the series' endless "there's a gun, check for fingerprints", that it bothered me when they didn't even check.

Re: Case 3 of AJ doesn't make much sense to me... Spoilers

Sun Apr 06, 2008 3:40 pm

Mia_Fey

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Tinker wrote:

I know that, but I'm so accustomed to the series' endless "there's a gun, check for fingerprints", that it bothered me when they didn't even check.

But fingerprints only even get a mention in the previous games when it leads to incriminating evidence (ex. 1-4 with Edgeworth's prints on the weapon). If there weren't any prints then it doesn't even usually get a mention in any of the games at trial. They don't usually go out of their way to say "We did the tests, but there weren't any prints." In all the cases I mentioned in my last post, they don't talk about how there were no fingerprints on the weapons, but its assumed because it wasn't mentioned. The police department could easily have done the needed tests and simply not come up with anything which would mean that they wouldn't mention it at trial as is the norm in the games. Besides you could also write that off to the Prosecutor's Office rushing the case to some conclusion which we are told was going on in this case (and certainly happens during high profile cases at times even if it shouldn't).

Proud Supporter of Phoenix/Iris, Ron/Dessie, Klavier/Ema, and Apollo/Vera
Fanfics Updated-12/25

Re: Case 3 of AJ doesn't make much sense to me... Spoilers

Sun Apr 06, 2008 3:56 pm

Sheepshifter

Guilty of being an AA addict

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As to when Darayn pushed the switch, how about during that time in the Guilty Love song where he missed his cue?

Klavier says it was one of the easiest cues in the song, so maybe he missed it because he was pressing the switch?

I will take over Court-Records with my army of Klavier fanboys!

Re: Case 3 of AJ doesn't make much sense to me... Spoilers

Sun Apr 06, 2008 11:55 pm

Shador

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Here's my question - It was an Interpol agent that was wasted, right? So why was this still in a local court?

Re: Case 3 of AJ doesn't make much sense to me... Spoilers

Mon Apr 07, 2008 2:23 am

AgostonF

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Well they didn't find out that it was an Interpol agent until later in the case, right? So.. I dunno they started already.

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