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Re: Luke's Fate?Topic%20Title
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I'm going to take a guess here, I don't know much about the US legal system which the PW games are (very very very) loosely based. If I remember the case correctly, the murder was pre-mediated, with a motive and everything, which I'm pretty sure amounts to First-Degree Murder. Don't forget that he comitted theft and perjury (and probably a few other offences in the process of doing so) as well. I feel that he'd get Life Imprisonment - I'm not sure if what he did would be seen as serious enough to get Life Imprisonment, but maybe I'm wrong.

I could imagine him wriggling out of this by admitting to Insanity though. I hope he makes a re-appearance in a future Apollo Justice game or something, he was a fun character for sure.
Re: Luke's Fate?Topic%20Title
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Adnan wrote:
I don't know much about the US legal system which the PW games are (very very very) loosely based.


Ace Attorney is based on the Japanese legal sytem, not the American one.

Quote:
Don't forget that he comitted theft and perjury


The crime of perjury pretty much doesn't exist in the AA universe, seeing as everyone lies on the witness stand, yet gets away scot free. Also, he didn't actually steal anything, he just told Ron to steal [insert valuable item here] and provided Ron with building plans and security details.
Re: Luke's Fate?Topic%20Title
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NinjaMonkey wrote:
Quote:
Don't forget that he comitted theft and perjury


The crime of perjury pretty much doesn't exist in the AA universe, seeing as everyone lies on the witness stand, yet gets away scot free. Also, he didn't actually steal anything, he just told Ron to steal [insert valuable item here] and provided Ron with building plans and security details.


He stole the urn and was about to be convicted for that as his alibi.
Hmmm... Grand larceny and homicide? Luke's got quite a sentence to serve.
(Assuming he did get convicted of the former after the murder trial)
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NinjaMonkey wrote:
Adnan wrote:
I don't know much about the US legal system which the PW games are (very very very) loosely based.


Ace Attorney is based on the Japanese legal sytem, not the American one.

Quote:
Don't forget that he comitted theft and perjury


The crime of perjury pretty much doesn't exist in the AA universe, seeing as everyone lies on the witness stand, yet gets away scot free. Also, he didn't actually steal anything, he just told Ron to steal [insert valuable item here] and provided Ron with building plans and security details.


My bad. I remembered that the games take place in America (right?) so I thought it was the US system, forgetting it was a Japanese game :payne:

And good point about perjury.
Re: Luke's Fate?Topic%20Title
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Blak The Great wrote:
He stole the urn and was about to be convicted for that as his alibi. Hmmm... Grand larceny and homicide? Luke's got quite a sentence to serve.


Two points:

1) I don't believe that stealing that old pot constitutes Grand Larcency (more like petty theft, as, from a financial point of view, the urn isn't worth anything).

2) Murderers in the AA universe get the death penalty (see Dahlia Hawthorne and Manfred von Karma).
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NinjaMonkey wrote:
Blak The Great wrote:
He stole the urn and was about to be convicted for that as his alibi. Hmmm... Grand larceny and homicide? Luke's got quite a sentence to serve.


Two points:

1) I don't believe that stealing that old pot constitutes Grand Larcency (more like petty theft, as, from a financial point of view, the urn isn't worth anything).

2) Murderers in the AA universe get the death penalty (see Dahlia Hawthorne and Manfred von Karma).


Ehh. Such a party pooper. I like to believe that Godot is still alive...
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Re: Luke's Fate?Topic%20Title
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Blak The Great wrote:
I like to believe that Godot is still alive...


So do I (and I'd claim what Godot did was justified self-defense - which includes defense of others).

Luke on the otherhand, has no such claim.
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I'd say it hinges on whether he can qualify as legally insane. Considering that, in addition to lesser crimes, he committed premeditated murder, I'd think it safe to assume that, if he isn't acquitted by reason of insanity, he will spend the rest of his life in prison--I don't know for sure whether said life would end by means of execution or natural causes, but, having looked over articles on capital punishment, my guess is that he would be sentenced to death, unless being blackmailed by the victim qualifies as a mitigating circumstance.
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Blak The Great wrote:

Ehh. Such a party pooper. I like to believe that Godot is still alive...


Godot pretty much only continued living to 'avenge' Mia, and even then it was evident that he was exactly the picture of health anyway. By the end of the game, didn't he openly state that there was nothing left/nobody waiting for him? That, along with him being pictures alongside the deceased Mia Fey and Misty Fey in the credits, I'm pretty sure he's dead...I think he might've gotten a Death Sentence, unless they GS2 SPOILER:
Spoiler:
"went easy on him" like with what was impied with Acro.
But even then I could imagine Godot 'putting himself to sleep'. By that point I don't think living really meant much to him anymore.

Maybe I really just don't want Luke Atmey to die. (this is probably the case for nearly everyone here lol) He could try pleading insanity, but I assume that'd have to be tested and everything - he seems more eccentric than insane. He's committed a pre-mediated murder, and he's definitely a threat to society...
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We know that murderers can get the death penalty; we don't know if they must. The only actual example is Dahlia, who really did have a lot to answer for; we don't even know for sure that Manfred von Karma died (though the phrasing does suggest it), let alone whether he would have been executed or died of other causes. There's no mention of Kristoph being given the death penalty that I recall, just solitary. And doesn't Phoenix say at the end of 3-5 that he sent Godot "to prison"?

However, I don't really see the insanity angle for Luke, since he was clearly putting on an act when he was "exposed" as the thief in Ron's first trial. He's establishing himself as a madman so people don't dig deeper into why he'd steal the urn and give him his conviction for theft. His reprise of that act when he's exposed as a murderer may be him snapping then at the failure of his plans, but his original plan and its execution were quite sane. Not that he's lacking for loose screws, but I don't think they're enough to establish him as legally insane at the time he committed the murder. Of course, the AA-verse is not exactly sane either.

I'm a little surprised at how much some people like him as a character, as he was kind of a nails-on-chalkboard sort to me.
Re: Luke's Fate?Topic%20Title
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Too bad. Waluigi Time.

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How dare you peoples put me to death?! How dare you?! I like to think he either got a few years and some rehabilitation for that insanity complex, but he'd still be his same old self, or he bailed himself seeing as someone who dresses like that would have to be rich. I prefer the second one, seeing as that gets him out of trouble. :godot:

Ace Detective, away! :inspect:

P.S. This is me if he gets death: :headbang: Why?! Why?! Why?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!
Re: Luke's Fate?Topic%20Title
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Alunissage wrote:
We know that murderers can get the death penalty; we don't know if they must. The only actual example is Dahlia, who really did have a lot to answer for; we don't even know for sure that Manfred von Karma died (though the phrasing does suggest it), let alone whether he would have been executed or died of other causes. There's no mention of Kristoph being given the death penalty that I recall, just solitary. And doesn't Phoenix say at the end of 3-5 that he sent Godot "to prison"?


Well, Manfred was described as being "gone from this world," so I'm pretty sure that means he's dead. For whatever reason.

Phoenix didn't mention anything about sending Godot to prison, but he did voice to Mia his disappointment in not being able to "save" him. And Godot appears in a picture at the end with Misty and Mia, both deceased, so it is possible he has died. Not definite, but possible.

But it's true, it doesn't seem to be a rule that all convicted murderers must die.
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_Krystal_ wrote:
There are a few characters who had been the murderers who I thought would get pretty light jail time (Acro and Dee Vasquez, for example),


Dee Vasquez killed someone in self-defense, but then got herself in big trouble for trying to kill two other people to cover it up, right in front of a detective. She's going to get some substantial time for that.

Though, in my state, the penalty for any attempted class-A (super-serious) felony is 5-15 years, so two counts of that wouldn't be the end of the world. Except she's also guilty of evidence tampering, perjury in a murder trial, and mob stuff.
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Adrian in black wrote:
Alunissage wrote:
We know that murderers can get the death penalty; we don't know if they must. The only actual example is Dahlia, who really did have a lot to answer for; we don't even know for sure that Manfred von Karma died (though the phrasing does suggest it), let alone whether he would have been executed or died of other causes. There's no mention of Kristoph being given the death penalty that I recall, just solitary. And doesn't Phoenix say at the end of 3-5 that he sent Godot "to prison"?


Well, Manfred was described as being "gone from this world," so I'm pretty sure that means he's dead. For whatever reason.

Phoenix didn't mention anything about sending Godot to prison, but he did voice to Mia his disappointment in not being able to "save" him. And Godot appears in a picture at the end with Misty and Mia, both deceased, so it is possible he has died. Not definite, but possible.

But it's true, it doesn't seem to be a rule that all convicted murderers must die.

I just kinda assumed they all died, seeing as nearly every villain has been a FUCKING DOUCHEBAG. *I'm looking at you, Wellington*
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Re: Luke's Fate?Topic%20Title
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I agree with the assessment of Wellington's character, but it wasn't premeditated, which might save him legally even with his framing attempt.
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I doubt he will get the death penalty.
Spoiler:
GK2 spoiler rules are in effect so I can't back up my point right now. :spload:
Re: Luke's Fate?Topic%20Title
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But it is stated that murder is a capital offense in the AA universe, so I don't see how...
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Too bad. Waluigi Time.

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Sorry for sorta necro-post, but how about a cell, neighboring or shared, with the Penguin and the Joker?
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The following post is based on real-life law, primarily California law.

It's safe to say that Bullard's death, like most murders in AA, was first-degree murder (the most serious form of murder; usually refers either to premeditated murder or "felony murder" committed during the course of a dangerous felony like robbery or kidnapping). Now for the sentence:

California penal code:

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displ ... le=187-199
Quote:
Every person guilty of murder in the first degree shall be
punished by death, imprisonment in the state prison for life without
the possibility of parole, or imprisonment in the state prison for a
term of 25 years to life.


Spoiler: Special Incriminating Circumstances which raise the minimum to life without parole
190.2. (a) The penalty for a defendant who is found guilty of
murder in the first degree is death or imprisonment in the state
prison for life without the possibility of parole if one or more of
the following special circumstances has been found under Section
190.4 to be true:
(1) The murder was intentional and carried out for financial gain.
(2) The defendant was convicted previously of murder in the first
or second degree. For the purpose of this paragraph, an offense
committed in another jurisdiction, which if committed in California
would be punishable as first or second degree murder, shall be deemed
murder in the first or second degree.
(3) The defendant, in this proceeding, has been convicted of more
than one offense of murder in the first or second degree.
(4) The murder was committed by means of a destructive device,
bomb, or explosive planted, hidden, or concealed in any place, area,
dwelling, building, or structure, and the defendant knew, or
reasonably should have known, that his or her act or acts would
create a great risk of death to one or more human beings.
(5) The murder was committed for the purpose of avoiding or
preventing a lawful arrest, or perfecting or attempting to perfect,
an escape from lawful custody.
(6) The murder was committed by means of a destructive device,
bomb, or explosive that the defendant mailed or delivered, attempted
to mail or deliver, or caused to be mailed or delivered, and the
defendant knew, or reasonably should have known, that his or her act
or acts would create a great risk of death to one or more human
beings.
(7) The victim was a peace officer, as defined in Section 830.1,
830.2, 830.3, 830.31, 830.32, 830.33, 830.34, 830.35, 830.36, 830.37,
830.4, 830.5, 830.6, 830.10, 830.11, or 830.12, who, while engaged
in the course of the performance of his or her duties, was
intentionally killed, and the defendant knew, or reasonably should
have known, that the victim was a peace officer engaged in the
performance of his or her duties; or the victim was a peace officer,
as defined in the above-enumerated sections, or a former peace
officer under any of those sections, and was intentionally killed in
retaliation for the performance of his or her official duties.
(8) The victim was a federal law enforcement officer or agent who,
while engaged in the course of the performance of his or her duties,
was intentionally killed, and the defendant knew, or reasonably
should have known, that the victim was a federal law enforcement
officer or agent engaged in the performance of his or her duties; or
the victim was a federal law enforcement officer or agent, and was
intentionally killed in retaliation for the performance of his or her
official duties.
(9) The victim was a firefighter, as defined in Section 245.1,
who, while engaged in the course of the performance of his or her
duties, was intentionally killed, and the defendant knew, or
reasonably should have known, that the victim was a firefighter
engaged in the performance of his or her duties.
(10) The victim was a witness to a crime who was intentionally
killed for the purpose of preventing his or her testimony in any
criminal or juvenile proceeding, and the killing was not committed
during the commission or attempted commission, of the crime to which
he or she was a witness; or the victim was a witness to a crime and
was intentionally killed in retaliation for his or her testimony in
any criminal or juvenile proceeding. As used in this paragraph,
"juvenile proceeding" means a proceeding brought pursuant to Section
602 or 707 of the Welfare and Institutions Code.
(11) The victim was a prosecutor or assistant prosecutor or a
former prosecutor or assistant prosecutor of any local or state
prosecutor's office in this or any other state, or of a federal
prosecutor's office, and the murder was intentionally carried out in
retaliation for, or to prevent the performance of, the victim's
official duties.
(12) The victim was a judge or former judge of any court of record
in the local, state, or federal system in this or any other state,
and the murder was intentionally carried out in retaliation for, or
to prevent the performance of, the victim's official duties.
(13) The victim was an elected or appointed official or former
official of the federal government, or of any local or state
government of this or any other state, and the killing was
intentionally carried out in retaliation for, or to prevent the
performance of, the victim's official duties.
(14) The murder was especially heinous, atrocious, or cruel,
manifesting exceptional depravity. As used in this section, the
phrase "especially heinous, atrocious, or cruel, manifesting
exceptional depravity" means a conscienceless or pitiless crime that
is unnecessarily torturous to the victim.
(15) The defendant intentionally killed the victim by means of
lying in wait.
(16) The victim was intentionally killed because of his or her
race, color, religion, nationality, or country of origin.
(17) The murder was committed while the defendant was engaged in,
or was an accomplice in, the commission of, attempted commission of,
or the immediate flight after committing, or attempting to commit,
the following felonies:
(A) Robbery in violation of Section 211 or 212.5.
(B) Kidnapping in violation of Section 207, 209, or 209.5.
(C) Rape in violation of Section 261.
(D) Sodomy in violation of Section 286.
(E) The performance of a lewd or lascivious act upon the person of
a child under the age of 14 years in violation of Section 288.
(F) Oral copulation in violation of Section 288a.
(G) Burglary in the first or second degree in violation of Section
460.
(H) Arson in violation of subdivision (b) of Section 451.
(I) Train wrecking in violation of Section 219.
(J) Mayhem in violation of Section 203.
(K) Rape by instrument in violation of Section 289.
(L) Carjacking, as defined in Section 215.
(M) To prove the special circumstances of kidnapping in
subparagraph (B), or arson in subparagraph (H), if there is specific
intent to kill, it is only required that there be proof of the
elements of those felonies. If so established, those two special
circumstances are proven even if the felony of kidnapping or arson is
committed primarily or solely for the purpose of facilitating the
murder.
(18) The murder was intentional and involved the infliction of
torture.
(19) The defendant intentionally killed the victim by the
administration of poison.
(20) The victim was a juror in any court of record in the local,
state, or federal system in this or any other state, and the murder
was intentionally carried out in retaliation for, or to prevent the
performance of, the victim's official duties.
(21) The murder was intentional and perpetrated by means of
discharging a firearm from a motor vehicle, intentionally at another
person or persons outside the vehicle with the intent to inflict
death. For purposes of this paragraph, "motor vehicle" means any
vehicle as defined in Section 415 of the Vehicle Code.
(22) The defendant intentionally killed the victim while the
defendant was an active participant in a criminal street gang, as
defined in subdivision (f) of Section 186.22, and the murder was
carried out to further the activities of the criminal street gang.
(b) Unless an intent to kill is specifically required under
subdivision (a) for a special circumstance enumerated therein, an
actual killer, as to whom the special circumstance has been found to
be true under Section 190.4, need not have had any intent to kill at
the time of the commission of the offense which is the basis of the
special circumstance in order to suffer death or confinement in the
state prison for life without the possibility of parole.
(c) Every person, not the actual killer, who, with the intent to
kill, aids, abets, counsels, commands, induces, solicits, requests,
or assists any actor in the commission of murder in the first degree
shall be punished by death or imprisonment in the state prison for
life without the possibility of parole if one or more of the special
circumstances enumerated in subdivision (a) has been found to be true
under Section 190.4.
(d) Notwithstanding subdivision (c), every person, not the actual
killer, who, with reckless indifference to human life and as a major
participant, aids, abets, counsels, commands, induces, solicits,
requests, or assists in the commission of a felony enumerated in
paragraph (17) of subdivision (a) which results in the death of some
person or persons, and who is found guilty of murder in the first
degree therefor, shall be punished by death or imprisonment in the
state prison for life without the possibility of parole if a special
circumstance enumerated in paragraph (17) of subdivision (a) has been
found to be true under Section 190.4.


There is no Special Incriminating Circumstance in there that definitively applies, since Bullard probably invited Atmey into his office (eliminating burglary-murder and lying in wait), Atmey didn't directly steal anything from Bullard (possibly eliminating financial gain as a motive, although preventing financial loss from blackmail could be considered financial gain), and Bullard had not actually agreed to testify as a witness against Atmey (possibly eliminating the Special Incriminating Circumstance of witness-killing). It's iffy, since killing a blackmailer probably involves either a financial motive or an "eliminating a witness who could act against him" motive. If any of those 22 circumstances apply, the minimum is life in prison without possibility of parole (except by act of the governor). I'm guessing that none of the special factors would be ruled to apply, since the burden of proof is on the prosecution:

Spoiler: prosecutor's duty to prove Special Incriminating Circumstances
In case of a reasonable doubt as to whether a special circumstance
is true, the defendant is entitled to a finding that is not true.
The trier of fact shall make a special finding that each special
circumstance charged is either true or not true. Whenever a special
circumstance requires proof of the commission or attempted commission
of a crime, such crime shall be charged and proved pursuant to the
general law applying to the trial and conviction of the crime.


It would appear that, in the absence of one of the special incriminating circumstances, the sentence cannot be death or life without parole, and is instead 25 years to life.

In the event that one of the Special Incriminating Circumstances is found to be true, the following aggravating and mitigating factors are considered when determining whether to impose a death penalty:

Spoiler: Factors that determine life without parole vs. death if there is a special incriminating circumstance
In determining the penalty, the trier of fact shall take into
account any of the following factors if relevant:
(a) The circumstances of the crime of which the defendant was
convicted in the present proceeding and the existence of any special
circumstances found to be true pursuant to Section 190.1.
(b) The presence or absence of criminal activity by the defendant
which involved the use or attempted use of force or violence or the
express or implied threat to use force or violence.
(c) The presence or absence of any prior felony conviction.
(d) Whether or not the offense was committed while the defendant
was under the influence of extreme mental or emotional disturbance.
(e) Whether or not the victim was a participant in the defendant's
homicidal conduct or consented to the homicidal act.
(f) Whether or not the offense was committed under circumstances
which the defendant reasonably believed to be a moral justification
or extenuation for his conduct.
(g) Whether or not defendant acted under extreme duress or under
the substantial domination of another person.
(h) Whether or not at the time of the offense the capacity of the
defendant to appreciate the criminality of his conduct or to conform
his conduct to the requirements of law was impaired as a result of
mental disease or defect, or the affects of intoxication.
(i) The age of the defendant at the time of the crime.
(j) Whether or not the defendant was an accomplice to the offense
and his participation in the commission of the offense was relatively
minor.
(k) Any other circumstance which extenuates the gravity of the
crime even though it is not a legal excuse for the crime.
After having heard and received all of the evidence, and after
having heard and considered the arguments of counsel, the trier of
fact shall consider, take into account and be guided by the
aggravating and mitigating circumstances referred to in this section,
and shall impose a sentence of death if the trier of fact concludes
that the aggravating circumstances outweigh the mitigating
circumstances. If the trier of fact determines that the mitigating
circumstances outweigh the aggravating circumstances the trier of
fact shall impose a sentence of confinement in state prison for a
term of life without the possibility of parole.


Last edited by Tifforo on Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Luke's Fate?Topic%20Title
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prosecuting never looked so good ;)

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Tifforo wrote:
The following post is based on real-life law, primarily California law.

It's safe to say that Bullard's death, like most murders in AA, was first-degree murder (the most serious form of murder; usually refers either to premeditated murder or "felony murder" committed during the course of a dangerous felony like robbery or kidnapping). Now for the sentence:

California penal code:

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displ ... le=187-199
Quote:
Every person guilty of murder in the first degree shall be
punished by death, imprisonment in the state prison for life without
the possibility of parole, or imprisonment in the state prison for a
term of 25 years to life.


Spoiler: Special Incriminating Circumstances which raise the minimum to life without parole
190.2. (a) The penalty for a defendant who is found guilty of
murder in the first degree is death or imprisonment in the state
prison for life without the possibility of parole if one or more of
the following special circumstances has been found under Section
190.4 to be true:
(1) The murder was intentional and carried out for financial gain.
(2) The defendant was convicted previously of murder in the first
or second degree. For the purpose of this paragraph, an offense
committed in another jurisdiction, which if committed in California
would be punishable as first or second degree murder, shall be deemed
murder in the first or second degree.
(3) The defendant, in this proceeding, has been convicted of more
than one offense of murder in the first or second degree.
(4) The murder was committed by means of a destructive device,
bomb, or explosive planted, hidden, or concealed in any place, area,
dwelling, building, or structure, and the defendant knew, or
reasonably should have known, that his or her act or acts would
create a great risk of death to one or more human beings.
(5) The murder was committed for the purpose of avoiding or
preventing a lawful arrest, or perfecting or attempting to perfect,
an escape from lawful custody.
(6) The murder was committed by means of a destructive device,
bomb, or explosive that the defendant mailed or delivered, attempted
to mail or deliver, or caused to be mailed or delivered, and the
defendant knew, or reasonably should have known, that his or her act
or acts would create a great risk of death to one or more human
beings.
(7) The victim was a peace officer, as defined in Section 830.1,
830.2, 830.3, 830.31, 830.32, 830.33, 830.34, 830.35, 830.36, 830.37,
830.4, 830.5, 830.6, 830.10, 830.11, or 830.12, who, while engaged
in the course of the performance of his or her duties, was
intentionally killed, and the defendant knew, or reasonably should
have known, that the victim was a peace officer engaged in the
performance of his or her duties; or the victim was a peace officer,
as defined in the above-enumerated sections, or a former peace
officer under any of those sections, and was intentionally killed in
retaliation for the performance of his or her official duties.
(8) The victim was a federal law enforcement officer or agent who,
while engaged in the course of the performance of his or her duties,
was intentionally killed, and the defendant knew, or reasonably
should have known, that the victim was a federal law enforcement
officer or agent engaged in the performance of his or her duties; or
the victim was a federal law enforcement officer or agent, and was
intentionally killed in retaliation for the performance of his or her
official duties.
(9) The victim was a firefighter, as defined in Section 245.1,
who, while engaged in the course of the performance of his or her
duties, was intentionally killed, and the defendant knew, or
reasonably should have known, that the victim was a firefighter
engaged in the performance of his or her duties.
(10) The victim was a witness to a crime who was intentionally
killed for the purpose of preventing his or her testimony in any
criminal or juvenile proceeding, and the killing was not committed
during the commission or attempted commission, of the crime to which
he or she was a witness; or the victim was a witness to a crime and
was intentionally killed in retaliation for his or her testimony in
any criminal or juvenile proceeding. As used in this paragraph,
"juvenile proceeding" means a proceeding brought pursuant to Section
602 or 707 of the Welfare and Institutions Code.
(11) The victim was a prosecutor or assistant prosecutor or a
former prosecutor or assistant prosecutor of any local or state
prosecutor's office in this or any other state, or of a federal
prosecutor's office, and the murder was intentionally carried out in
retaliation for, or to prevent the performance of, the victim's
official duties.
(12) The victim was a judge or former judge of any court of record
in the local, state, or federal system in this or any other state,
and the murder was intentionally carried out in retaliation for, or
to prevent the performance of, the victim's official duties.
(13) The victim was an elected or appointed official or former
official of the federal government, or of any local or state
government of this or any other state, and the killing was
intentionally carried out in retaliation for, or to prevent the
performance of, the victim's official duties.
(14) The murder was especially heinous, atrocious, or cruel,
manifesting exceptional depravity. As used in this section, the
phrase "especially heinous, atrocious, or cruel, manifesting
exceptional depravity" means a conscienceless or pitiless crime that
is unnecessarily torturous to the victim.
(15) The defendant intentionally killed the victim by means of
lying in wait.
(16) The victim was intentionally killed because of his or her
race, color, religion, nationality, or country of origin.
(17) The murder was committed while the defendant was engaged in,
or was an accomplice in, the commission of, attempted commission of,
or the immediate flight after committing, or attempting to commit,
the following felonies:
(A) Robbery in violation of Section 211 or 212.5.
(B) Kidnapping in violation of Section 207, 209, or 209.5.
(C) Rape in violation of Section 261.
(D) Sodomy in violation of Section 286.
(E) The performance of a lewd or lascivious act upon the person of
a child under the age of 14 years in violation of Section 288.
(F) Oral copulation in violation of Section 288a.
(G) Burglary in the first or second degree in violation of Section
460.
(H) Arson in violation of subdivision (b) of Section 451.
(I) Train wrecking in violation of Section 219.
(J) Mayhem in violation of Section 203.
(K) Rape by instrument in violation of Section 289.
(L) Carjacking, as defined in Section 215.
(M) To prove the special circumstances of kidnapping in
subparagraph (B), or arson in subparagraph (H), if there is specific
intent to kill, it is only required that there be proof of the
elements of those felonies. If so established, those two special
circumstances are proven even if the felony of kidnapping or arson is
committed primarily or solely for the purpose of facilitating the
murder.
(18) The murder was intentional and involved the infliction of
torture.
(19) The defendant intentionally killed the victim by the
administration of poison.
(20) The victim was a juror in any court of record in the local,
state, or federal system in this or any other state, and the murder
was intentionally carried out in retaliation for, or to prevent the
performance of, the victim's official duties.
(21) The murder was intentional and perpetrated by means of
discharging a firearm from a motor vehicle, intentionally at another
person or persons outside the vehicle with the intent to inflict
death. For purposes of this paragraph, "motor vehicle" means any
vehicle as defined in Section 415 of the Vehicle Code.
(22) The defendant intentionally killed the victim while the
defendant was an active participant in a criminal street gang, as
defined in subdivision (f) of Section 186.22, and the murder was
carried out to further the activities of the criminal street gang.
(b) Unless an intent to kill is specifically required under
subdivision (a) for a special circumstance enumerated therein, an
actual killer, as to whom the special circumstance has been found to
be true under Section 190.4, need not have had any intent to kill at
the time of the commission of the offense which is the basis of the
special circumstance in order to suffer death or confinement in the
state prison for life without the possibility of parole.
(c) Every person, not the actual killer, who, with the intent to
kill, aids, abets, counsels, commands, induces, solicits, requests,
or assists any actor in the commission of murder in the first degree
shall be punished by death or imprisonment in the state prison for
life without the possibility of parole if one or more of the special
circumstances enumerated in subdivision (a) has been found to be true
under Section 190.4.
(d) Notwithstanding subdivision (c), every person, not the actual
killer, who, with reckless indifference to human life and as a major
participant, aids, abets, counsels, commands, induces, solicits,
requests, or assists in the commission of a felony enumerated in
paragraph (17) of subdivision (a) which results in the death of some
person or persons, and who is found guilty of murder in the first
degree therefor, shall be punished by death or imprisonment in the
state prison for life without the possibility of parole if a special
circumstance enumerated in paragraph (17) of subdivision (a) has been
found to be true under Section 190.4.


There is no Special Incriminating Circumstance in there that definitively applies, since Bullard probably invited Atmey into his office (eliminating burglary-murder and lying in wait), Atmey didn't directly steal anything from Bullard (possibly eliminating financial gain as a motive, although preventing financial loss from blackmail could be considered financial gain), and Bullard had not actually agreed to testify as a witness against Atmey (possibly eliminating the Special Incriminating Circumstance of witness-killing). It's iffy, since killing a blackmailer probably involves either a financial motive or an "eliminating a witness who could act against him" motive. If any of those 22 circumstances apply, the minimum is life in prison without possibility of parole (except by act of the governor). I'm guessing that none of the special factors would be ruled to apply, since the burden of proof is on the prosecution:

Spoiler: prosecutor's duty to prove Special Incriminating Circumstances
In case of a reasonable doubt as to whether a special circumstance
is true, the defendant is entitled to a finding that is not true.
The trier of fact shall make a special finding that each special
circumstance charged is either true or not true. Whenever a special
circumstance requires proof of the commission or attempted commission
of a crime, such crime shall be charged and proved pursuant to the
general law applying to the trial and conviction of the crime.


It would appear that, in the absence of one of the aggravating factors, the sentence cannot be death or life without parole, and is instead 25 years to life.

In the event that one of the Special Incriminating Circumstances is found to be true, the following aggravating and mitigating factors are considered when determining whether to impose a death penalty:

Spoiler: Factors that determine life without parole vs. death if there is a special incriminating circumstance
In determining the penalty, the trier of fact shall take into
account any of the following factors if relevant:
(a) The circumstances of the crime of which the defendant was
convicted in the present proceeding and the existence of any special
circumstances found to be true pursuant to Section 190.1.
(b) The presence or absence of criminal activity by the defendant
which involved the use or attempted use of force or violence or the
express or implied threat to use force or violence.
(c) The presence or absence of any prior felony conviction.
(d) Whether or not the offense was committed while the defendant
was under the influence of extreme mental or emotional disturbance.
(e) Whether or not the victim was a participant in the defendant's
homicidal conduct or consented to the homicidal act.
(f) Whether or not the offense was committed under circumstances
which the defendant reasonably believed to be a moral justification
or extenuation for his conduct.
(g) Whether or not defendant acted under extreme duress or under
the substantial domination of another person.
(h) Whether or not at the time of the offense the capacity of the
defendant to appreciate the criminality of his conduct or to conform
his conduct to the requirements of law was impaired as a result of
mental disease or defect, or the affects of intoxication.
(i) The age of the defendant at the time of the crime.
(j) Whether or not the defendant was an accomplice to the offense
and his participation in the commission of the offense was relatively
minor.
(k) Any other circumstance which extenuates the gravity of the
crime even though it is not a legal excuse for the crime.
After having heard and received all of the evidence, and after
having heard and considered the arguments of counsel, the trier of
fact shall consider, take into account and be guided by the
aggravating and mitigating circumstances referred to in this section,
and shall impose a sentence of death if the trier of fact concludes
that the aggravating circumstances outweigh the mitigating
circumstances. If the trier of fact determines that the mitigating
circumstances outweigh the aggravating circumstances the trier of
fact shall impose a sentence of confinement in state prison for a
term of life without the possibility of parole.

:zaviaar: :zaviaar: :zaviaar: :zaviaar: :zaviaar: :zaviaar: :zaviaar: :zaviaar: :zaviaar: :zaviaar: :zaviaar: :zaviaar: :zaviaar: :zaviaar: :zaviaar: :zaviaar: :zaviaar: :zaviaar: :zaviaar: :zaviaar: :zaviaar: :zaviaar: :zaviaar: :zaviaar: :zaviaar: :zaviaar: :zaviaar: :flowsers: :flowsers: :flowsers: :flowsers: :flowsers: :flowsers: :flowsers: :flowsers: :spload: :spload: :spload: :spload: :spload: :spload: :spload: :spload: :spload: :spload:

DAMN THATS SOME GOOD SLEUTHING Tifforo! You must really hate atmey to dig up alllllll this legal info :gant:

But i think i found something to convict Atmey in the incriminating circumstances box (yes i read them all) which was where it says

"(5) The murder was committed for the purpose of avoiding or
preventing a lawful arrest, or perfecting or attempting to perfect,
an escape from lawful custody."

Would this apply to the double jeopardy rule that atmey tried to exploit, or would it apply to the implication of Ron being the criminal rather than him due him adorning the persona of Mask*demasque?
When life gives you lemons, leave them and get a lollipop instead.

CHOO CHOO! ALL ABOARD THE HYPE EXPRESS!
Re: Luke's Fate?Topic%20Title

Gender: Male

Rank: Desk Jockey

Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:48 pm

Posts: 121

Thanks to a series of Supreme Court decisions starting in 1964, ALL U.S. States that use a death penalty have to have a separate sentencing phase of death penalty trials after the guilty / not guilty phase. In order for a death penalty to be imposed, a jury must rule that it has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt that the aggravating factors outweigh the mitigating factors. Each of the 36 states with a death penalty has its own list of what the aggravating and mitigating factors are.

A death penalty would be unlikely, since even if he's convicted of first-degree murder and a special incriminating circumstance is found to be true (thus making him eligible for a death sentence), few of the aggravating factors apply. The only one that applies is "The presence or absence of criminal activity by the defendant
which involved the use or attempted use of force or violence or the
express or implied threat to use force or violence" for assaulting Ron. I don't think Ron ever hurt anyone during the DeMasque heists, but if he did, that also counts as violent crime that Atmey is responsible for. If they prosecute for the DeMasque heists before they prosecute for murder, which is unlikely, they might be also get him on "The presence or absence of any prior felony conviction," though I'm not sure whether the other felony conviction has to be "prior" to the murder itself or only the murder conviction. On the flip side, if they don't get him on those things, he could claim the absence of prior convictions as mitigating. He also has a very weak case for " Whether or not the offense was committed under circumstances
which the defendant reasonably believed to be a moral justification
or extenuation for his conduct." Being blackmailed over a series of major crimes isn't a strong justification, especially since he was a blackmailer too, but he might try to claim that as extenuating. I think that claiming it was justified might actually make him seem remorseless and backfire, but it might be worth a shot. You can always find something to argue as mitigating under "any other circumstance which extenuates the gravity of the crime," too.

The downside for Luke is that, even if he ends up in the "25 to life" category for first-degree murder without a special incriminating circumstance, and he gets off really easy with 25 years for murder, he still has to do time for planning most of the DeMasque heists if prosecutors decide that whatever sentence he got for murder wasn't enough and want to hit him with more charges. He can also be charged with perjury, blackmail, assaulting Ron, that "Atmey Virus" thing he was making...

The upside for Luke is that:
A. In order to even get him for first-degree murder, they have to prove not just that he killed Bullard, but that it was first-degree. It clearly was (with the whole "steal the urn first as a fake alibi" and "invite Ron to frame him" thing), but that's an extra thing they would have to prove.
B. In a country where almost 90% of criminal cases are decided on plea bargains, he could get a reduced sentence in exchange for pleading guilty. He could even plea bargain it down to second-degree murder (which is less serious than first-degree murder). California's sentence for second-degree murder, as long as it's not a cop killing or drive-by and there are no prior murder convictions, is 15 years to life. I'm not sure whether guilty pleas exist in AA, but I'm basing these posts on real California law.

zachariah Von-Karma wrote:
But i think i found something to convict Atmey in the incriminating circumstances box (yes i read them all) which was where it says

"(5) The murder was committed for the purpose of avoiding or
preventing a lawful arrest, or perfecting or attempting to perfect,
an escape from lawful custody."

Would this apply to the double jeopardy rule that atmey tried to exploit, or would it apply to the implication of Ron being the criminal rather than him due him adorning the persona of Mask*demasque?


I think that Atmey did the urn heist to cover for the murder, rather than the other way around. You could claim that he killed Bullard in order to avoid or prevent for the DeMasque heists (or, again, the witness-killing one that's #10), although that one appears to be based more on killing someone in order to escape when someone is trying to arrest you. In fact, I'd say it's more like killing Bullard INCREASED his chances of being arrested for the DeMasque heists, so I think there's more than reasonable doubt on that one.


EDIT: Someone earlier suggested an insanity defense. Even if an insanity defense failed, mental instability could be argued as a mitigating factor against the death penalty, under mitigating factors d, g, h, and/or k.

Spoiler: Mitigating factors d, g, h, and k
(d) Whether or not the offense was committed while the defendant
was under the influence of extreme mental or emotional disturbance.
(g) Whether or not defendant acted under extreme duress or under
the substantial domination of another person.
(h) Whether or not at the time of the offense the capacity of the
defendant to appreciate the criminality of his conduct or to conform
his conduct to the requirements of law was impaired as a result of
mental disease or defect, or the affects of intoxication.
(k) Any other circumstance which extenuates the gravity of the
crime even though it is not a legal excuse for the crime.
Re: Luke's Fate?Topic%20Title
User avatar

prosecuting never looked so good ;)

Gender: Male

Location: spain (UK origin)

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Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:17 pm

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Tifforo wrote:
Thanks to a series of Supreme Court decisions starting in 1964, ALL U.S. States that use a death penalty have to have a separate sentencing phase of death penalty trials after the guilty / not guilty phase. In order for a death penalty to be imposed, a jury must rule that it has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt that the aggravating factors outweigh the mitigating factors. Each of the 36 states with a death penalty has its own list of what the aggravating and mitigating factors are.

A death penalty would be unlikely, since even if he's convicted of first-degree murder and a special incriminating circumstance is found to be true (thus making him eligible for a death sentence), few of the aggravating factors apply. The only one that applies is "The presence or absence of criminal activity by the defendant
which involved the use or attempted use of force or violence or the
express or implied threat to use force or violence" for assaulting Ron. I don't think Ron ever hurt anyone during the DeMasque heists, but if he did, that also counts as violent crime that Atmey is responsible for. If they prosecute for the DeMasque heists before they prosecute for murder, which is unlikely, they might be also get him on "The presence or absence of any prior felony conviction," though I'm not sure whether the other felony conviction has to be "prior" to the murder itself or only the murder conviction. On the flip side, if they don't get him on those things, he could claim the absence of prior convictions as mitigating. He also has a very weak case for " Whether or not the offense was committed under circumstances
which the defendant reasonably believed to be a moral justification
or extenuation for his conduct." Being blackmailed over a series of major crimes isn't a strong justification, especially since he was a blackmailer too, but he might try to claim that as extenuating. I think that claiming it was justified might actually make him seem remorseless and backfire, but it might be worth a shot. You can always find something to argue as mitigating under "any other circumstance which extenuates the gravity of the crime," too.

The downside for Luke is that, even if he ends up in the "25 to life" category for first-degree murder without a special incriminating circumstance, and he gets off really easy with 25 years for murder, he still has to do time for planning most of the DeMasque heists if prosecutors decide that whatever sentence he got for murder wasn't enough and want to hit him with more charges. He can also be charged with perjury, blackmail, assaulting Ron, that "Atmey Virus" thing he was making...

The upside for Luke is that:
A. In order to even get him for first-degree murder, they have to prove not just that he killed Bullard, but that it was first-degree. It clearly was (with the whole "steal the urn first as a fake alibi" and "invite Ron to frame him" thing), but that's an extra thing they would have to prove.
B. In a country where almost 90% of criminal cases are decided on plea bargains, he could get a reduced sentence in exchange for pleading guilty. He could even plea bargain it down to second-degree murder (which is less serious than first-degree murder). California's sentence for second-degree murder, as long as it's not a cop killing or drive-by and there are no prior murder convictions, is 15 years to life. I'm not sure whether guilty pleas exist in AA, but I'm basing these posts on real California law.

zachariah Von-Karma wrote:
But i think i found something to convict Atmey in the incriminating circumstances box (yes i read them all) which was where it says

"(5) The murder was committed for the purpose of avoiding or
preventing a lawful arrest, or perfecting or attempting to perfect,
an escape from lawful custody."

Would this apply to the double jeopardy rule that atmey tried to exploit, or would it apply to the implication of Ron being the criminal rather than him due him adorning the persona of Mask*demasque?


I think that Atmey did the urn heist to cover for the murder, rather than the other way around. You could claim that he killed Bullard in order to avoid or prevent for the DeMasque heists (or, again, the witness-killing one that's #10), although that one appears to be based more on killing someone in order to escape when someone is trying to arrest you. In fact, I'd say it's more like killing Bullard INCREASED his chances of being arrested for the DeMasque heists, so I think there's more than reasonable doubt on that one.


EDIT: Someone earlier suggested an insanity defense. Even if an insanity defense failed, mental instability could be argued as a mitigating factor against the death penalty, under mitigating factors d, g, h, and/or k.

Spoiler: Mitigating factors d, g, h, and k
(d) Whether or not the offense was committed while the defendant
was under the influence of extreme mental or emotional disturbance.
(g) Whether or not defendant acted under extreme duress or under
the substantial domination of another person.
(h) Whether or not at the time of the offense the capacity of the
defendant to appreciate the criminality of his conduct or to conform
his conduct to the requirements of law was impaired as a result of
mental disease or defect, or the affects of intoxication.
(k) Any other circumstance which extenuates the gravity of the
crime even though it is not a legal excuse for the crime.


Thanks for clearing that up for me. this :gant: is really good info. i can use this in my Law studies, so thanks once agian
When life gives you lemons, leave them and get a lollipop instead.

CHOO CHOO! ALL ABOARD THE HYPE EXPRESS!
Re: Luke's Fate?Topic%20Title

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Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:48 pm

Posts: 121

I erroneously said that the Supreme Court decision requiring the death penalty to be approved by a jury was from the 1960s. It was actually Furman v. Georgia, 1972.


EDIT:

Detective Luke Atmey wrote:
How dare you peoples put me to death?! How dare you?! I like to think he either got a few years and some rehabilitation for that insanity complex, but he'd still be his same old self, or he bailed himself seeing as someone who dresses like that would have to be rich. I prefer the second one, seeing as that gets him out of trouble. :godot:


Bail only keeps him out of jail while he's on trial. Bail means that you're free while preparing for your trial and can go home during court recesses. It doesn't let you go free after a major conviction.
Re: Luke's Fate?Topic%20Title
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Doesn't scream into DS microphones.

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I do sincerely hope he gets the death penalty. He was so annoying.

At the very least, send him to spend the rest of his life in a cell with Kristoph Gavin.
"I can't go to hell, little weirdo. I'm all out of vacation days."
Re: Luke's Fate?Topic%20Title

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To add to the above summary of real California law:

California's homicide statutes are complicated. Whereas Missouri's statutory definition of first-degree murder is one sentence (basically murder after consideration/reflection on the matter), California statutes spend several paragraphs defining different levels of it.

To summarize, though, there are six main levels of criminal homicide in California. From most to least serious:

1. First-degree murder with one of 22 special incriminating factors.
2. "Plain" first-degree murder.
3. Second-degree murder.
4. Voluntary manslaughter.
5. Vehicular manslaughter.
6. Involuntary manslaughter.

Murder is killing someone intentionally or with depraved recklessness or during a felony. Voluntary manslaughter is killing in a sudden quarrel or heat of passion. Non-voluntary manslaughter is killing someone with ordinary recklessness or gross negligence or through a non-felony crime or violation of safety law.

First-degree murder (both levels) includes premeditated murder, as well as murder by means of poison or lying in wait (which is pretty much guaranteed to be premeditated). There's also the first-degree felony murder rule, which states that any death resulting from certain dangerous felonies like robbery, burglary, or kidnapping is first-degree murder.

It may not surprise people that a person who deliberately becomes an accomplice (rather than a mere accessory) to the murder itself, like a certain person from 2-2, is guilty of murder. However, the felony murder rule states that if someone is killed during a robbery, even by accident, every accomplice to the robbery is guilty of first-degree murder.

The punishments, not including fines and the like or the possibility of a suspended sentence are as follows:

1. First degree murder with special incrim. circumstance: life without parole or death.
2. "Plain" first-degree murder: life in prison with eligibility for parole after 25 years.
3. Second-degree murder: life in prison with eligibility for parole after 15 years. However, the penalty is greater if the victim was a peace (police) officer or the person has other murder convictions.
4. Voluntary manslaughter: 3, 6, or 11 years in prison.
5. Vehicular manslaughter: depends on the circumstances; the worst form can get up to 10 years plus an extra 5 for fleeing the scene.
6. Involuntary manslaughter: sixteen months or 2, 3, or 4 years in prison.

There are 22 special incriminating circumstances that can bump up the penalty for first-degree murder, one of which is a special version of the first-degree felony murder rule. Within the latter, there are 15 felonies that can make a defendant guilty of first degree murder with a special circumstance. The special circumstances include killing an on-duty police officer, killing for financial gain, killing a witness to another crime, poison, lying in wait, and having more than one murder conviction. The eligible felonies include robbery, arson, burglary, kidnapping, escape from custody, and various major sex crimes.

In order to be guilty of first-degree murder with a special incriminating circumstance, the defendant must have been either
1. The actual killer,
2. An accomplice who intended for someone to die, or
3. In a special first-degree felony murder rule case, a major participant in the underlying felony who acted with a reckless disregard for human life.

With regard to number 3 above, in order for someone who is guilty solely because of the felony murder rule and did not kill or intend death, to be sentenced to death, the U.S. Supreme court has said that their recklessness must be to an extent that shows extreme indifference to human life.
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