But Olga planted the card on Phoenix before she knew what Phoenix's cards looked like(unless she had already dealt a game with Phoenix in the first place, which could have happened).

The way I had always interpreted Olga's actions was that she had been set up as a fake waitress several days before, during which she did nothing besides serve others borscht and the other various waitress chores. In other words, she would never have had any chance to find out what brand Phoenix's cards were unless she had asked someone who knew, the persons of which likely only included Trucy and the owner of the BBC. Now, unless the restaurant owner was in on the attempt to defame Phoenix as well(which doesn't seem likely since Phoenix states that his Poker playing is a considerable source of income for the club), and Trucy wouldn't have told Olga, even if they had met, it's hard for me to picture an opportunity where Olga would have had an opportunity to learn what Phoenix's cards were on the back.

The idea of a surprise deck on hand does seem like a possibility, but it seems like it would have made Olga's life in terms of acquiring extra cards much easier if she had just gone to the store, bought the red and blue decks, as well as an extra red deck to get the planted card, and then brought those cards to the game under the pretense that she was a waitress that had worked at the club for a while.


I meant the second arrest, when Redd White called Gumshoe to arrest Phoenix.


Klavier didn't. :p I modified a quote of his from 4-4, where he responds to Kristoph's contention that the older Gavin couldn't have murdered Drew Misham because he had no idea when the atroquinine bomb goes off:

"Tell me...it needs to be planned, why?"

It worked pretty well for the point I was trying to make, so I just substituted a few new words in.

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Yeah I had the same impression about Olga's time there but what I'm suggesting is that Olga didn't bring an alternate deck with a matching back and just modified the decks that were in the restaurant (that Phoenix had supplied) and therefore it was no hassle for Phoenix to get a matching forgery because he had spare decks back at the office for Trucy and his own use.

The boss just said "Right we play the occassional game of poker here after hours, no real money being gambled but Phoenix over there is something of an unbeatable legend and that's enough of a draw for people so Phoenix keeps the decks in this drawer, two with different backs to prevent cheating...." etc etc of redundant stuff which Olga already knew being a cardshark herself. Phoenix provided the decks for the place so makes sense the spares at his home would match as indicated by the fact Trucy manages to make a forgery easily.

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Now this brings up a new interesting question altogether...was the owner of the Borscht Bowl Club actually aware that Olga was at the club in the first place?

According to Olga, Zak "planted" her there a few days prior to the card game. From her statement, as well as the fact that Zak didn't come out of hiding whatsoever until the day of the card game/his death, it doesn't seem like Olga ever actually got hired by the boss of the Borscht Bowl Club.

Here's why I say that. Zak clearly had the date as to when he wanted to meet up with Phoenix to get him to sign the notary planned out for a while(he wanted it as close to the 7 year anniversary of his disappearance as possible). If he planted Olga at the club several days prior, that would have left a very small window of opportunity in terms of time that she could have applied for a position and been legitimately hired. It seems like a rather unlikely possibility that A: The club could have been hiring waitresses at the time, and B: That the boss would have hired her at all(considering her life as a professional card dealer, she would have had little to no experience at serving tables).

So this brings up the possibility that Olga was planted there without actually being hired by the BBC. Maybe she only popped in for a few hours when the boss wasn't there and cleaned tables randomly in order to make it appear like she hadn't just come out of nowhere.

And, of course, if she wasn't legitimately hired, she wouldn't have been able to talk to the boss, and thus wouldn't have been able to find out what kind of cards Phoenix used.

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Unless she did some recon work first.
However I think this option is a bit far fetched, sure it's unlikely but I'd say it's more unlikely for Phoenix to allow a complete stranger like Olga (since he would know the waitresses) to sit in on his card games. Plus you assume the boss or other waitresses don't notice this complete stranger as they close up the shop for the night. When the boss is ticking off waitresses on the staff list there's still this anomaly.

No i think she got the job legitimately. Consider how she is a fraudster I wouldn't seem too much of a stretch to consider she forged some credentials to get the job. Perhaps someone close to the boss was bribed to make a good case for Olga playing on the "It's who you know" angle to get Olga the job however I just think it's too far a stretch for them not to notice Olga when closing up the restaurant since the games go on past closing.

Especially since I imagine the owner would be aware of any games going on. Zak would've had to pay during opening hours for the chance to challenge Phoenix at which point I imagine the boss would've assigned a waitress to deal at the game. It hardly looks like a big restaurant I doubt Olga could hide without any of the staff realising.

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As I recall, the decision to let Olga "sit in" was Zak's decision, not Phoenix's(Zak tells Olga to go "prepare the room," in the Mason System flashback of 4-4 without any word from Phoenix). Plus, there's still the possibility of Phoenix having noticed her coming in and doing random faked work and believing she was a new hire.

Or he could have had one of his old Phoenix moments and completely spaced out and missed her.


"Maybe she only popped in for a few hours when the boss wasn't there and cleaned tables randomly in order to make it appear like she hadn't just come out of nowhere."


I was under the impression that the game between Phoenix and Zak was the first game Olga dealt at during her time at the club. She likely would have left long before the boss closed up the place in order to avoid being noticed.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cw8ECSr4Y88
Skip to 5:57.

The boss, for some reason, doesn't ever seem involved in this in the first place. Zak just sort of springs the game on Phoenix, and then tells Olga himself to go prepare the room. The boss is mysteriously...gone.

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Sure Zak told her to but based on the time, the fact Phoenix's services are no longer needed and we hear no mention of any other customers it leads me to believe that for all intents and purposes the restaurant was closed. Olga would have been assigned to be the waitress/dealer for the gentlemen and therefore is the only one left. Phoenix would still know Olga as a waitress for a couple days rather than a brand new person he's never seen before. Furthermore this way she's a person who is approved to work the Hydeout that night.



I work in a food/service environment. You can't repeat that phrase as if it nullifies what I said. Colleagues would notice, there are rotas, lists of employees who should be in that night. In my work the boss (OR NEXT LEADING MANAGER) frequently looks at it to decide when to send people away. Even if the boss was away there would be a head waitress. Plus there'd be communication issues.

"You there....erm....table 4 needs some borscht...."
"Da! *shyly walks off*"
"Y'know Jenny I don't think that girl's on the rota *checks*"

Then some quiet words and asking her to leave and Zak's plan is spoiled.



How could she leave before the boss closed up the place? The games go on past closing! The boss probably gave Phoenix (a trusted employee) a copy of the key so he could lock the door when him Zak and Olga left after the game.



Again I'm gonna say that since the restaurant appears quiet and Phoenix is being allowed time to just chat with a client instead of doing his job that the restaurant has closed by this point. The boss may have left but have already approved the game over the phone (like a booking) Olga may be the last waitress (or at least the assigned waitress) to go deal the cards.

I feel we're treading a lot of the same ground here, and I'm losing track of what the original point behind these arguments is.

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The mention of no other customers isn't that unreasonable, since they likely just didn't feel like spiriting others.

Also, if you'll recall, after Kristoph leaves Phoenix and heads back to his office, Phoenix comments on how he still has "two more hours" left on his shift. If the restaurant was really empty and closed, why would Phoenix's shift run for two hours longer?


I've worked in food environments myself, and if there was no manager there, I think it would be very easy for someone to slip in for five minutes, act like she was doing something, and then slip out just to make herself seem familiar on the night of the game.

It's really more of a "get your image at least somewhat memorable in the back of people's heads" thing as opposed to "convince everyone that you really work there."


I was referring to the nights before the game.

My understanding of how Phoenix's card games work is that these card games are generally randomly sprung on him(in the same fashion that Zak's was), except for the cases of the really big games. Reason for this being that Phoenix openly states that he hopes someone will come by and play cards with him, which gives the inference that the suddenness of Zak's game was not something that was happening for the first time.

My guess is that Phoenix just goes to the boss, tells him there'll be a game there tonight, and the boss gives him a key to lock up with when it's over. The boss would have no reason to ever go anywhere or check on anything, except possibly to acquire payment from Zak. Also, since Phoenix has been working there for seven years, the boss probably trusts him enough to just give him the key and not even inspect the back room, where Olga would be setting up.

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He spent time talking to Zak and waiting for Olga to set up the room.



I'm sorry but you'll never convince me that Olga was just not noticed. If your food environment had no manager then I'm sure the rest of the team would notice someone shouldn't be, and EVEN then it's a terrible thing not to have a senior member or a manager. Canon says she was planted there a couple days before, coincidental it may be but it happened that way. The idea she snuck in is just unfeasible.



Alright so games could be done on the spot or booked, more reason to hire a waitress with some degree of card experience and keep decks on hand in the restaurant.


I'm going to have to stop here man unless you can find a reason how this at all ties back into the main thing? We were talking about the backs of the cards and I'm just not feeling any of this helps towards that.

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Granted, he most definitely did. But it was only about fifteen minutes or so(assuming that Phoenix's Mason System representation is accurate).


Meh. I suppose it really depends on how big the place was.

The place where I worked wasn't a huge place, but it wasn't incredibly small either(probably slightly larger than, say, your average Chick-Fil-A). Since it hired student workers, we had new people in and out of there all the time.

It does seem far fetched, I will agree, but it seems even more far fetched that Zak would have completely based his entire plan to make Phoenix lose on whether some fake Russian waitress who he barely knew could get a job at the club.


I agree with that entirely. I don't think she snuck in on just that one night. My theory was more along the lines of she snuck in during, say, the middle of the day a couple of times, just so that people would at least have her face in their memories, so that when the night of the game came, Phoenix wouldn't think she was a complete stranger that Zak brought along with him.


Which is exactly why Olga wouldn't be hired.

They would have already had someone to deal cards for the games if they were sincerely worried about cheating. If someone had been dealing cards for the entirety/large portion of Phoenix's career at the club, and then all of a sudden, this new Russian waitress comes in for this one game that Zak had already made abundantly clear that he was willing to do anything to win, I think Phoenix would have been very suspicious, very quickly.


Quote:
Also, if you'll recall, after Kristoph leaves Phoenix and heads back to his office, Phoenix comments on how he still has "two more hours" left on his shift. If the restaurant was really empty and closed, why would Phoenix's shift run for two hours longer?


He spent time talking to Zak and waiting for Olga to set up the room.

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I've worked in food environments myself, and if there was no manager there, I think it would be very easy for someone to slip in for five minutes, act like she was doing something, and then slip out just to make herself seem familiar on the night of the game.

It's really more of a "get your image at least somewhat memorable in the back of people's heads" thing as opposed to "convince everyone that you really work there."


I'm sorry but you'll never convince me that Olga was just not noticed. If your food environment had no manager then I'm sure the rest of the team would notice someone shouldn't be, and EVEN then it's a terrible thing not to have a senior member or a manager. Canon says she was planted there a couple days before, coincidental it may be but it happened that way. The idea she snuck in is just unfeasible.

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I was referring to the nights before the game.

My understanding of how Phoenix's card games work is that these card games are generally randomly sprung on him(in the same fashion that Zak's was), except for the cases of the really big games. Reason for this being that Phoenix openly states that he hopes someone will come by and play cards with him, which gives the inference that the suddenness of Zak's game was not something that was happening for the first time.


It is a bit of a long train of thought, probably one of the longest I've ever debated on.

But it goes something like this:

If you'll recall, the original issue that led to this all was whether Phoenix would already have had the cards that were used in the game. This is important because, if he didn't, he would have had to spend a long time describing them in great deal over the phone to Trucy before he was arrested, which he wouldn't have had time to do because he had already called the police several minutes ago.

So, in more scripted terms:

If Olga wasn't hired at the BBC, she couldn't have asked the boss about the cards Phoenix used.
If Olga didn't know the kind of cards being used, she couldn't have known what extra kinds of cards to get in order to put the extra ace/planted card out.
Therefore, Olga would have had to have brought the cards with her.
If Olga brought the cards with her, Phoenix would not have known what design the cards had.
If Phoenix didn't know what design the cards had, he would have likely had great difficulty describing them in enough detail to Trucy over the phone(in the short amount of time he had) to allow her to forge one effectively.
If he couldn't have done this, then he couldn't have ordered Trucy to make the forgery over the phone.

But yeah, this one goes back quite a ways.

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I tried to wrap my head around it but I think I'd need to play the case again. So I thought of this.

The Ace of Spades (the missing ace) says "Vol.8" on the front of the card. This is a far greater identifier than the backs of the cards.

Though I still deny the idea that Olga sneaked in. As I said earlier perhaps she had forged credentials or Zak bribed someone to put in a good word with the boss for her or maybe he 'genuine' russian accent won her the position but she got the job legitly.

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Suppose we'll have to just agree to disagree on that one. I personally can't picture Zak basing his entire plan to defame Phoenix on whether or not a scam artist with a fake Russian accent can land a job, but I suppose there have been stranger things in the AA universe.


Is that from the forged card, or the real card, though?

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*shrugs* Zak had presumably made a bit of money considering he went around winning poker games as Shadi Smith for a while so I assume he could grease the wheels a bit on Olga's application. From my understanding waiting tables and kitchen porters have the highest turnaround in staff due to the stress of the job.

And it's from the forged card.

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There's one problem with that, though, and it's that Shadi Smith never talked to the owner of the club.

If you'll recall from case 1 of Apollo Justice, Winston Payne mentions that "everyone involved with the scene of the crime" was asked as to who Shadi Smith was, and no one had even heard of him before that night. In fact, no one outside of Phoenix's circle of knowledge figured out who he was until Apollo revealed that he was Zak Gramarye in court.

Now, presumably, the owner of the Borscht Bowl Club, who would have been "involved with the scene of the crime" was asked about him. If he hadn't met him...then there's no way he could have "smoothed" Olga into the club.

It's also a safe bet that if Shadi Smith had somehow met with the BBC owner, the BBC owner would have learned that he was a famous, underground Poker player...and the courts didn't know that, either.


Here's the thing, though. What if the ace Kristoph picked up was the ace that was added to the deck? Then the volume number wouldn't have matched the rest of the cards, causing no contradiction there.

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So he could have used an alias over the phone. If he wanted to plant Olga there he probably wouldn't want to use his real name considering how he wanted to cheat with her. That would send alarm bells ringing for anyone and the BBC owner isn't interested in seeing his star poker player lose. Besides I'm more inclined to think he bribed someone close to the BBC owner to put a good word in for her, perhaps an ex-employer or something to get an opinion rather than appearing himself.



I'm sorry I don't see how. What evidence do you have it wouldn't affect the volume number? Volume can apply to a whole range of cards. If Phoenix bought the same time of decks with different backs, likely in the same place (though for some reason it seems more likely to come from a poker gift set in my head) then why would they be any different?.

Besides the forged Ace used WORKED in court as in it got a RESPONSE from Kristoph. Isn't that reason enough to indicate it?

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While the police are incompetent in AA, do keep in mind that they did a background search on Shadi Smith after the case and came up with no one who knew him at all. Considering Olga's shadiness and the fact that she arrived at the club only a few days before, the BBC owner would have almost certainly been asked why she had been hired. Which would have led back to the person/ex-employee who recommended her, which would have led to the bribe from Shadi Smith, which would have led to the revelation that he was a renown black market Poker player.

None of that is known in 4-4, so I'm inclined to believe that did not happen.


I think I'm in your position now, where I'm not sure how this relates to the original topic at hand.

At any rate, going off this argument(even though I'm not sure where it's going), I do not have to prove that it would or wouldn't affect a volume number. It might have the same volume number, and it might not. The faked card could have actually been manufactured long before or long after the cards used at the table. All I'm doing is showing that there is a possibility that the card might not have had the same volume number.

And, if it didn't, then Phoenix wouldn't have to worry about relaying that info to Trucy.


The reason it got a response from Kristoph was because he knew he had taken that card with him. Unless the actual in game courts use some sort of computer system like the AA movie, the card likely never even got close enough to Kristoph for him to examine the volume number in the first place.

I don't think anyone else even bothered to examine that card closely enough to check the volume number, anyway.

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That bold bit seems contradictory. You think their background search would turn anything up? So he bribes someone over the phone and I believe I mighta hinted it earlier but he could easily use another alias. Therefore no one finds out.



Alright I'll accept that, if you drop the ridiculous "She only snuck in" when that is not known in 4-4 and we DO know that she was apparently planted there. Same situation man.



- You were making the argument that the backs would be too specific to describe to Trucy to fake in the time between the police arriving after the call despite the fact that we have no idea on whether they would arrive quickly or not.
- I claimed that Phoenix need only describe the card with it's Volume number to simplify it.
- You brought up some question like "Ah but the forged card or the real card"
- I was like "Wut...." because the fact that it works well enough to fool Kristoph indicates it is a convincing fake if not a copy with a simple paint stain on it.
- You go "Ah but how does this relate?"

That's how I see it. Really I should stop this at the first point, we have no understanding on the positioning of the BBC to the Police station or whether they would arrive on time especially considering Phoenix would have to let them into the building and therefore has plenty of time. The circumstances are too different to the situation of 1-2 to claim the police would be there rapidly.



Would be cool if it worked the way in the movie but point is the card was a convincing enough fake and Phoenix new that so all the talk about the backs possibly being too detailed or something is pointless.

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Well, that was directed towards an employer giving her a referral, but in response to the idea that someone over the phone would have bribed the owner...

"Hey, we've never met before, and there's this person whom you've never met before, and if you hire her, I'll give you some money. Sound good?"

...I don't think any business owner worth his salt would accept that.


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While the police are incompetent in AA, do keep in mind that they did a background search on Shadi Smith after the case and came up with no one who knew him at all. Considering Olga's shadiness and the fact that she arrived at the club only a few days before, the BBC owner would have almost certainly been asked why she had been hired. Which would have led back to the person/ex-employee who recommended her, which would have led to the bribe from Shadi Smith, which would have led to the revelation that he was a renown black market Poker player.


That bold bit seems contradictory. You think their background search would turn anything up? So he bribes someone over the phone and I believe I mighta hinted it earlier but he could easily use another alias. Therefore no one finds out.


There's a difference there, and it's that those questions would have been specifically asked to the people in those situations, and we know the answers to them. The police, whether they asked the BBC owner whether he hired Olga or not, is not known.

However, as stated before, I feel I have good reason to believe that Olga likely was not hired, and, instead, was planned long before to simply make herself appears as any employee.

Consider this: Zak obviously had the date of his game planned out with Phoenix to the day. How do we know this? He intended to appear to Phoenix to have the notary signed and to get his revenge in cards. If he had come any later, he couldn't have done both, as he needed to be "legally alive" in order to have the notary signed.

If Olga was planted at the BBC a few days before, as she states, then we also have to contend with the fact that she had not been working there a long time. In essence, Zak would not have known that she would have been there before.

And yet, he was willing to go through all of this detailed planning and complicated plotting to get a notary signed and to get his revenge on Phoenix, and we're supposed to believe that he left his plan up to whether or not the boss of the club(who he had never met before) could easily be bribed?

I don't buy that at all. That seems much less likely than someone going in, and pretending to be someone, in a universe where people are incredibly blissfully ignorant already. If Furio Tigre could pretend to be a lawyer, and fool everyone, then I have no difficulty imagining that someone could pretend to be a waitress.


Post subject: Re: Who really forged the bloody Ace in Turnabout Trump?
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While the police are incompetent in AA, do keep in mind that they did a background search on Shadi Smith after the case and came up with no one who knew him at all. Considering Olga's shadiness and the fact that she arrived at the club only a few days before, the BBC owner would have almost certainly been asked why she had been hired. Which would have led back to the person/ex-employee who recommended her, which would have led to the bribe from Shadi Smith, which would have led to the revelation that he was a renown black market Poker player.


That bold bit seems contradictory. You think their background search would turn anything up? So he bribes someone over the phone and I believe I mighta hinted it earlier but he could easily use another alias. Therefore no one finds out.

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None of that is known in 4-4, so I'm inclined to believe that did not happen.


Alright I'll accept that, if you drop the ridiculous "She only snuck in" when that is not known in 4-4 and we DO know that she was apparently planted there. Same situation man.

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I think I'm in your position now, where I'm not sure how this relates to the original topic at hand.

At any rate, going off this argument(even though I'm not sure where it's going), I do not have to prove that it would or wouldn't affect a volume number. It might have the same volume number, and it might not. The faked card could have actually been manufactured long before or long after the cards used at the table. All I'm doing is showing that there is a possibility that the card might not have had the same volume number.

And, if it didn't, then Phoenix wouldn't have to worry about relaying that info to Trucy.


Oh, I thought you were going somewhere completely different with the second point on that chart.

At any rate, I'm no card buff, so I can't really elaborate on whether simply mentioning a card brand/volume number would be enough to indicate to someone what kind of card it was.


How are they different at all? Someone phones a murder, the police arrive on the scene. Other than that, the only difference is a matter of who they arrest.


...I'm pretty sure everyone already knows that they were convincing enough fakes...

Where is that argument going?

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I think you messed up the quoting there, I'll try and decipher best as I can but correct me if I mess it up.



Sure no one would accept that because it sounds like an idiot doing it. Olga shows up has a dazzling referral "She's a little shy but she's a fast learner and has good balance and plenty of experience in restaurant X in Russia she can also deal cards for that poker thing you do" now Zak could have bribed a friend or even a waitress since a lot of people get into jobs through friends that way.



Furio Tigre was played for laughs in a no-nothing case and actually has the tiniest bit of resemblance to Phoenix. Give him a blue suit and it'd look like Phoenix went on holiday in the sun. Waiters and waitresses work in small rota-crews they know each other. No newstart would slip on without questions being asked. Besides if she did sneak in she wouldn't know any of the rules or common knowledge that goes on around the workplace she'd stick out like a sore thumb.

Besides look at it this way....since you are such a fan of the police in AA and their checks, don't you think someone would check whether she actually worked at the Borscht Bowl club before she got up on the stand to testify? There's no way she could hide that with no repurcussions especially when it's likely that some of the staff if not the boss would be in the audience at the court, seeing how it involves a friend and their place of business.



Not quite what I was getting at.

"Trucy find the deck where the Ace of Spades had 'Vol.8' written on it and put a drop of paint on it"

Is the kinda simple thing I was meaning.



Phoenix phoned an assault not a murder, April May knew what was going to happen ahead of time meaning she could call faster where as things had to calm down in the Hydeout before Phoenix made a call. Hell April could have called ahead early saying she'd seen a disturbance in the office so the police would be heading early. A calmed down assault is arguably less serious than a murder. We don't know anything about the position of the building relevant to the police station or even Wright Law offices. There's too many unknown variables on top of the fact Phoenix would have to let them in which should be enough to give him time to inform Trucy.



I was under the impression you were insistently trying to debate the real and fake card were different backed or something and didn't get it.

Happens when debates get so winded.

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Perhaps this was just where I worked, but...

Referrals seem to matter much less in the world of food services than in most other careers, especially if it's with a restaurant that the owner can't run a background check on. Saying "she worked well once at a Russian restaurant" does much less for job opportunities than saying "she worked well in engineering in Russia."



Oh, please. With that ridiculous accent of his, the fact that he stands six inches taller, his tan that he would have somehow had to have got over winter, and the fact that he yelled "youse talkin' to me?" whenever he was addressed would somehow be ignored, whereas someone quietly coming in and cleaning tables without making a scene would stick out like a sore thumb?

And besides, the Judge, Maggey, Payne, and(judging from Apollo's and Ema's claims about Phoenix's fame throughout their generation, quite a few people in the stands would have known Phoenix very well.


Sure, I would. Would you expect Payne to bring that fact to light in the court and cast suspicion on his own "decisive witness?" I wouldn't.

Remember, no police ever testified in this case. The only person connected to the police background checks who spoke would have been Winston Payne...and I don't find it hard to believe that he would conceal that fact.


I think he'd have to be a bit more specific than that. There's likely tons of card decks out there with "volume eight" written on them.


How about this then? When Redd White phoned the police to accuse Phoenix Wright of the murder of Mia Fey, the police arrived just as quickly, if not quicker, and there was no murder that had taken place at the scene.

And the police burst into the room on both occasions, so I'd be kind of surprised if they just let Phoenix leisurely chat with someone while they waited outside for him to let them in.

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Ok maybe so but you know what sure as hell works in small restaurants? Knowing someone on the inside. Like I said a waitress coulda been bribed to say "My pal needs a temporary job, she's done waitressing before so just help her out for a couple days" and bam that works. Hell most people at my job are related/knew each other before work/going out as ways they got into it.



Sure I'm not saying he'd be a good disguise but he'd do a damn sight better than a stranger pretending to be a waitress without knowing the mannerisms where to go or the names of any of her colleagues for a couple days.



Of course there would be police watching the case though, some member of law enforcement would be in the stands to contradict that. The second she said "I worked at the Borscht Bowl club" some detective overseeing the case in the crowd would be like "Hold the phone...". She would probably have to pass a background check just to even get up on the stand on the first place.

I'll accept we didn't see a detective testify in the case but it's a tutorial case they tend to be small in scale and it's reasonable to assume that a detective still did all the standard offscreen processing even if they didn't appear to give the information because it's a tutorial case.

Payne wouldn't be the only one in the Courtroom and Olga would probably have to pass a background check before testifying therefore her words about being hired at the BBC are true.



I disagree, remember this is one small cluttered office of a poker shark and a magician. Cards are probably one of the few things kept tidily somewhere. Unless Phoenix goes out his way to buy multiple different kinds of card decks like some kinda collector he probably just grabbed a few from the same stock at the shop or got a poker set with set cards. Not like he sent Trucy out to find a deck like that in shops. Say there's one to four spares around the office that Phoenix grabbed at the shop. It's not unspecific at all with a specific card and identifier there, add in the card back colour and it's more specific if you like but all in all it's no hassle at all for Trucy to fake it.



Sure difference being, there was a murder, getting on the scene quickly is important to preserve the murder site. Assault is a much more standard affair and if they broke down the BBC's door they'd be held responsible for damages and I imagine the BBC owner might sue as further reason not to. Also it's hardly a leisurely chat it's a quick 2 minute at most call with further explanation about what held him up later.

Besides in the Mia scenario I typically imagined the door was ajar or already open considering the shock Phoenix had as he entered the office but hey that's just a thought. The police wouldn't just break down a building's door when there isn't any apparent danger.

Also while it's unusual I'll point it out, in both situations it was hardly 'the police' that arrived. It was specifically Detective Gumshoe and in the Redd White case the Chief Prosecutor was being threatened with blackmail so had more reason to encourage a rapid response. Gumshoe may be quick on the scene but in the modern AJ timeline we don't know if he even occupies the same position on the force there's no indication a typically incompetent police force could replicate that speed.

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But, as I pointed out before, had a waitress/someone close to the scene done something like that and bribed/referred Olga to the boss, the police would have found a connection through there during their follow up investigation during the next few months.


Not at all. Firstly, Furio was attracting attention to himself all the time. The entire courtroom was looking at him. All Olga had to do was slip into some back corner of the restaurant where no employees were paying attention. If anyone asked, she could have just used your excuse "I got temporarily hired to get some experience" or something, and the waitress roster hasn't been updated yet.

It really would not be that hard to keep out of sight in a club like the BBC, and even if she did get caught, she could use that excuse.


Let's go back for a second to the very first case in the Phoenix Wright series, 1-1. Remember Frank Sahwit? How the prosecution claimed he was a "newspaper salesman," when, in fact, he wasn't, and was simply a thief? I'm sure they bothered to check his background in that case as well as this one, but all the same, when the prosecution claimed it, no police spoke up.

Why would they for this case and not that one?


Again, Frank Sahwit is an excellent example of this. If there was a background check, the prosecution would likely hide it.


Ah, now we're back to whether or not Phoenix actually owned the cards being used in the game in the first place.

A matter which we can't clear up until we have whether or not Olga was hired decided.


There was no murder at Bluecorp. Redd White simply stated that he had a suspect(Phoenix Wright) there. The actual murder took place at the Fey and Co Law Officies, remember?

Plus, Phoenix phoned in the murder during his second trip upstairs(when he went to call Gavin) so they would have gone to the scene even quicker from that point.


I had actually always gotten the impression that Gumshoe and several others had arrived on the scene, but the producers of AA were too lazy to sprite the other policemen. In the AA movie, which I realize is far from official, he shows up on the scene with several others. I can't imagine a single policeman going to try and capture a murder suspect by himself.

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Sure...in a follow up investigation....months later....months after the trial when it's all for moot.



Sure if someone asked her but more likely to ask the boss "Who's the new girl" wham boom out on the street. I compared it to Furio Tigre to indicate how ridiculous your plan she could just pretend to belong in a place. So say she hides 'in a back corner of the restaurant' someone will see her there because THEY ARE PAID TO OBSERVE FOR PEOPLE IN CASE THEY NEED SERVED. Even the back corners of the restaurant would be checked for new customers who need served. I absolutely refuse to believe Olga could sneak in dressed as a waitress. She arrives in her waitress uniform, comes through the door, the waiter/waitress at the front desk doesn't recognise her and asks her if she needs a table while thinking she's dressed rather oddly. It won't work definitely not enough to pass by Phoenix who we not only know is pretty smart but by AJ's timeline has acquired great powers of perception with Trucy's help and his poker games.



Is there any proof he wasn't a salesman? He's hardly a full-time professional thief (i.e. Mask DeMasque) could easily be both and hide his criminal activity. Waitress is something they would have checked up being her official listed profession. Even then the BBC manager or a waitress probably would have mentioned something. Hell Phoenix could call her out on it mid-trial saying "I'm not sure she's officially employed" or something.



While I already covered this, her behaviour also helps disprove this. After her true self has been revealed why on earth would she lie about how she got there? There's no reason for her to lie, the only reason she would lie would serve your argument. Her employer is dead so there's no negative repurcussions to her revealing the full details of the plan. It doesn't make sense for her to lie about how she got to the Borscht Bowl Club.



....Phoenix owned cards for Trucy's sake at LEAST of course there would be cards in the office.



Sorry I was still thinking about the original murder of Mia but regardless of how fast they arrive at the scene it doesn't change the fact Phoenix would have to let them in. That's enough time for a small call to Trucy. Excepting that he could easily sneak away for a small call to his daughter, say in the bathroom, under the grounds he needs to explain to his daughter why he'd be back later. There is no difficulty in making the call.

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Which is exactly the point.

Recall that 4-1 plays a crucial role in 4-4. No one knew at the time of 4-4 who Shadi Smith was, and no one had any leads as to his identity. Thus, whatever follow up investigation that there was turned up with nothing. And if the investigation turned up with nothing, there was no outside interference in the first place.

Which is exactly what I'm trying to show.


But that's the point. She would come in when the boss was out. If the boss went on lunch break, or had to go somewhere to pick up supplies for the place, or down to the bank to deposit/withdraw a transaction. There's plenty of times when the boss could be away, and considering Olga's personality and skill, I'm sure she could have easily figured out when he would be gone.


Yes, we are all perfectly aware.



Why in the world would Phoenix care? He only comes in during the night to play piano and poker, if necessary. Even if he did notice her, he would likely just take her for another waitress that was hired. As you yourself said, food service is a business that is frequently left and entered, and I'm sure he wouldn't question the validity of every single new waitress that came in.


Yes, there is. Watch the ending of 1-1.


Why would he, though? That would simply cast suspicion on the person that Kristoph was attempting to have the blame shifted to. Phoenix wanted to get Kristoph convicted, not Olga.


She doesn't. She says "I was planted" at the BBC a few days before. Being "planted" sounds like an outside force put you there, to me, not "I went through an interview and was hired fairly."


But, as I stated earlier, there are so many brands of cards out there, it would be highly unlikely for him to own a pair that would be the same as the kind Olga brought to the game.


Really? He calls the police to report the murder, then calls Kristoph Gavin, then goes downstairs and adjusts the scene of the crime(aka putting that hat back on Zak's head), walks back upstairs, and has time to call Trucy before the police arrive? I find that a little difficult to believe.

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Sorry for the delay I was busy with cool real life stuff for a wee bit. I doubt I'll be able to fully understand or pick up where we left off but gimme a bit.



She's skilled as a poker hustler, not as a spy. Though ignoring her talents for a second my main objection here is that even if the boss is on a small break there would be an assistant manager, head waitress/waiter, head chef, soux chef, kitchen porters, the other waitresses and waiters who are highly likely to be on first-term basis given staff nights out and what not to go through before she could simply 'stealth' in there.



XD Pointless phrase is pointless but I'm not sure how much of a 'we' there is in this.



Sure he would just probably briefly. It's easy to ask "Who's the new girl" to someone rather than just assuming "new girl" and not bothering to learn anything about what may be a consistant employee and colleague. If anything he'd go "Err sorry Zak, don't think she works here" about it.



*Shrugs* Casting suspicion on someone doesn't automatically result in a guilty verdict, indeed Olga has tonnes of suspicion piled on her and she reveals her true nature as a result but the information that she was a plant doesn't make her anymore likely to be the murderer. If anything it would only speed up the revelation that she was employed by Zak resulting in her Persona change rather than a conviction on her.



Yes an outside force can put you there....but that doesn't say anything about the MEANS to how you were put there....such as being hired legitimately. Your statement doesn't indicate anything against the thought she was hired.

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Again I feel we're retracing ground, Phoenix is the reason for cards to be stored at the BBC Olga wouldn't need to bring them they'd probably be bought by Phoenix seeing as they are a tool of his trade and his daughters. Meaning he probably bought a couple decks for himself and his daughter probably grabbing a couple of the same packs from the shop with Groceries. Therefore same backs.



Wrong, he calls police to report the assault but explains he calmed the dude down (bearing in mind this may be routine in a city like LA in the form of Drunken bouts breaking out in pubs and clubs) calls Gavin goes downstairs discovers the hassle and takes in the crime scene. Explains the plan to Trucy. Assuming the Police are fast to respond to a routine incident of no immediate danger, are close to the BBC, lets say they rap on the door while he's making the call. He holds up a finger indicating 'one minute' while he gives a simple explanation before moving to unlock the door for them and explaining things got worse. They ask him who he called he says he called his daughter to explain he wouldn't be home that night because of the incident.

This is assuming the doors are glass (I envision them with curtains in front of them for some reason who knows) so they can see him calling someone, if they can't see him for example with a solid wooden door they need simply knock, he yells "One minute" as if approaching, finishes his call to Trucy before letting them in.

Edit: Forgive the double post.

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One would think that there would be someone there in a court as well to make sure that the lawyers are who they're supposed to be, but there isn't...


We are. If Phoenix had them, Olga wouldn't have known ahead of time which cards to get extras of(to plant in Phoenix's pocket and to have the extra ace of). Keep in mind this is especially important if Phoenix had multiple decks at the BBC: If he did, Olga wouldn't know which deck to get extras of.



Actually, no, he calls the police to report the murder as well.

Here's how we know that:

In court, Payne(rather unwillingly) mentions that Phoenix was the one who phoned in the crime. As in, he was the one who phoned in the crime that is being discussed at the moment. Kristoph uses this to point out(while he's attempting to defend Wright) that Phoenix would not have called the police to report the MURDER had he not committed it.

Later in the trial, Olga reveals that she had been attacked, which was news to both Payne and Justice/Kristoph, so Payne didn't know about it. Why wouldn't Payne know about it? Because it wasn't mentioned to him by the police. However, he did know about Phoenix phoning something else in: the report of the murder. So, yes, Phoenix did report both the assault and the murder.

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WEAK! CRUNCH! Add it to the heap! There's no reason to compare the known to be incompetent law force to a completely unrelated restaurant venture. Try a better argument hectospactal :P



Ah I see now, I was thinking it happened a different way. Olga simply removed a card from the existing deck. As the dealer she'd be in charge of the decks and so no one would know as they didn't handle the cards. Even then Phoenix had seen the card was missing beforehand and so was on guard because he knew something was up. No need to get new matching decks.



Hmm I don't think you've pointed out me being incorrect as much as simply a plothole.

Phoenix couldn't have called the murder in despite what was said. When he called the police Zak was calming downstairs allowing Kristoph an opportunity to kill him he would only be calling in an assault. What you say defies the actual events but is possibly a plothole as a result.

Unless we get into real specifics. Say Phoenix says "There's been an incident at the Borscht Bowl Club come quickly" or "Someone's been attacked at the Borscht Bowl Club" in which case he doesn't specify assault and Olga simply recovers by the time the police arrive and has amnesia and her new persona to hide behind while the Police assumed he called in a murder. That or the police simply didn't mention the assault since they were attempting to charge Phoenix with murder ahead of assault and it was a double-jeapordy situation similar to Luke Atmey wanting to get charged with theft to avoid a murder charge.

As for why Phoenix wouldn't bring it to the courts attention who knows, I guess it might just be part of his master plan to test Apollo.

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Sure there is. If the courtroom are this lax in Ace Attorney, how up to snuff can you expect the freaking restaurant assistant managers to be?


So at last we come to an agreement that Olga was the one who brought the cards to the game. Finally.

In that case, I would like to suggest something: If Olga was hired as a waitress, as you claim, then why in the world would she have access to the cards beforehand?


As Godot once quoted from someone else who I'm too lazy to look up:

"Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

Allow me to pose the final remaining possibility at this point, since we have eliminated all the others. Keep in mind Phoenix made two trips upstairs, first to report the assault, and then secondly, to request Kristoph's assistance. We know that he made two trips because when he makes the first call, Zak isn't dead yet, and when he calls Kristoph, he is fully aware that Zak is dead.

What if Phoenix simply called the police during the second trip upstairs when he called Kristoph and reported the murder then? The call about assault could very easily have been forgotten over the report of murder, and that would clear up the entire plothole pretty neatly.

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Er....pretty well....considering the two professions are entirely unrelated. While I shouldn't need to say this I'll point out that one profession being lax doesn't mean all professions in the AA universe suffer. Look at Lang's interpol squad compared to LA's force for example.
Ok Blargman I defended you in the other topic because someone was a bit out of line but if you continue with arguments of this caliber I'm just going to stop talking to you. I'm starting to think you are just picking out little nitpicky arguments without any thought of where they go or believe in them other than to irritate me. Your arguments don't really get you anywhere they just go on.

For example: I presented the sound idea that Phoenix could easily call Trucy to get her to make a fake, the police were on their way sure but Phoenix would have had to let them in and this is assuming they police arrive relatively quickly they'd still need to wait for him to unlock the door (possibly part of the reason they arrested him thinking he may have tampered with the crime scene, which he did kinda). You have wheedled your way around this key point with tiny nitpicky complaints.



Wrong I didn't agree to that, in fact I said there'd be no reason for her to get new cards. Like I suggested there were likely cards stored on-site for such surprise games as Zak's. Possibly in a drawer or cupboard or in the hydeout themselves, they are hardly high-security objects. Easy to access, especially when one of her extra duties as a waitress involves dealing cards.



I think he might have quoted Sherlock Holmes but this argument seems pointless. My explanation works just as well and it doesn't involve a second plothole or police 'coincidentally' forgetting an assault report. Either explains the plothole but it's not really relevant.

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I sincerely apologize if it seemed nitpicky, but I addressed that point multiple times, and I'm slightly unsure as to how you missed it.

If you'll recall, the issue in doubt here is whether or not Phoenix would have had enough time to call Trucy. Before we can address this point, we have to solve an entirely different issue, namely, whether Phoenix had called the police to report the murder or not.

The reason why it hasn't been solved is because there was another point that needed to be solved before that.


Good sir, if you are going to accuse me of not responding to certain points of yours, I must really ask you to not be hypocritical and make sure you do the same.

You brought this point up before, and I responded thusly:

"Why would Olga be hired as a card dealer? Phoenix had been dealing games for the past seven years with no problems, so why would the owner of the BBC suddenly decide to hire a card dealer, or let one of his waitresses deal cards instead of Phoenix?"

There is, of course, the chance that owner knew about her card dealing skills in the first place, but then that begs the question: "Why would the owner hire someone with such a...rather dark...background to deal cards in the first place?" Card sharks like Olga are known to have the ability to manipulate cards, so he would be well aware of her having the capability to throw a game, and throw it in favor of another person if they paid enough(like Zak did).

The owner would be well aware of this, and unlikely to hire someone for this purpose. Thus, there would be no reason for Olga to know where the cards were.

But this is, in and of itself, going back to the point about the cards, which, considering how little you seem to like multiple point debates, is not something I will go into at this point.


Your explanation also consists of the police conveniently forgetting that Phoenix called in assault and somehow mixing that up with murder. I don't think mine is any less likely.

At any rate, there is one crucial point that I have brought up time and time again, and you have either missed it every single time or chosen not to respond to it. Since we're throwing around accusations of ignoring points here, I think I'll throw this out into the open yet again.

Zak planned this meeting out with Phoenix for quite some time. How do we know this? Because he showed up right before he became "legally deceased" in order to have Phoenix sign his transferal of rights to Trucy. Zak also planned to publicly disgrace Phoenix by making him lose at cards, which he would have had to do on the same night, since he himself stated that he would "disappear forever" after coming back into the open on that night(likely because he was afraid Phoenix might report his appearance to the police, which would be dangerous because he still qualifies as an escaped suspect).

So then, Zak had this date out. Now, if Olga was really hired at the BBC, as you say, then its likely she applied for that position only a few weeks before, at most. So here's the question:

Knowing Zak's personality, do you really intend to tell me that he simply left his entire plan up to the chance that some fake Russian scam artist could get a job at the place Phoenix worked?

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You got proof Phoenix had been dealing cards for all those years? You think it wouldn't be a bit suspicious if this one night a waitress did it? No I was under the impression a waitress would always be doing it as it is slightly more impartial than Phoenix. Think about it a man who has an unbeaten record of poker that serves as a draw to big shot poker players around, and yet he deals his own cards? People would cry foul in an instant. No waitresses are kept on to do it which is why Olga could be hired. Assuming she didn't blatantly put "card shark and con artist" on her resume like an idiot I'd say "Casino waitress and dealer" would do the job nicely. Honestly by get the job legitmately I didn't mean SHE was honest but she went through the proper channels with fake credentials/CV's not just blatantly saying she was a con artist.



No....my explanation suggested Phoenix was vague "There's been an incident at the Borscht Bowl club," or "An Attack" neither of which confirms murder but could mean assault however it would only seem to be assault if the victim survived. Therefore when the police arrived and saw one dead body and Olga was ok they assumed Phoenix had called in a murder. Though this is just a small unimportant thing.



No I thought I'd covered this already, he simply greased the wheels with a little of his poker money to get her a job, possibly only for a few nights possibly for the long term (as a waitress who left immediately after such a suspicious incident would seem off). A bribe here, a reference there, a waitress who says her friend really needs a job for a couple nights. Though I'm going to point this out now as well.

Perhaps it was simply convenient to do it simultaneously. He still had a couple of days before being declared dead there's no reason he had to do both simultaneously unless it was convenient. The rights he could drop off at the office with his signature on them and maybe a small letter to explain (in case Trucy didn't understand right away) signed from her father. Then Zak could go along as Shadi Smith to play poker whenever he wanted. It wasn't imperative he did it simultaneously, perhaps he simply had managed to put the poker scheme into place and decided to kill two birds with one stone.

In the end it wasn't neccessary for him to do both in one night since he could've passed the rights on any other night (well had Kristoph not intervened).



No no I don't recall any doubt at all. You found a plothole, neither of our explanations confirm he called in a murder since the game tells us both "murder" when in actuality it would be an assault Phoenix was calling for. Even then the police aren't about to break down the door of a restaurant when the caller doesn't seem particularly distressed. Phoenix would have to unlock the door and even then you are going on the EXTREMELY shaky premise that the Police would show up instantaneously. Phoenix had plenty of time in my eyes.

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A waitress would be even more suspicious than Phoenix, especially if she was working at the same place.

Think about it. Guy goes undefeated for seven years, with the waitresses at his own table doing the dealing. Not only would that give the waitress the opportunity to cheat, but Phoenix as well, as he could have slipped a card in to his hand. That would leave two people with the opportunity to cheat, both of whom would have to have been watched by the other player. Someone would have cried foul a long time ago.

My guess is Phoenix and whoever the guy he was playing with simply took turns dealing. Much, much less room for cheating. While there's no definitive proof one way or another...winning seven straight years with a waitresses who clearly have a vested interest in your victory(if Phoenix wins, they continue to get paid extra, possibly even overtime to deal cards) would get called foul on in an instant.

There is also one thing which I didn't notice until now, but thought it was worth bringing up. If you take the time to examine Olga's profile in 4-1 after she drops her act...

"A professional swindler. Hired by the victim to destroy Phoenix Wright's reputation."

Note that every trace of her actually being hired at the BBC is gone. Small point, but worth noting, IMO.


It is, actually, fairly unimportant, as we've already established Phoenix had to go upstairs twice: First to call the police, secondly to call Kristoph.

Might as well leave this point to die peacefully then.


I think I already responded to this, but...

Point A: Refer back to how the police investigation never found out anything about Shadi Smith's background.

Point B: Would Zak really rely on whether the boss was willing to take some rather suspicious money in order to hire some waitress he never met?


Perhaps it was just me, but I kind of got the feeling that Zak was absolutely terrified of coming out in the open(from the conversation he had with Phoenix in 4-4. Terrified to the point that he wouldn't be willing to do it again, especially when he had no idea how Phoenix felt.

Although this is just a guess, it seems like Zak was somewhat expecting Phoenix to be upset with him at forcing him to lose his attorney's badge(he apologies profusely after meeting Phoenix). Combining that with his fear of being noticed in public...it's highly doubtful that he would reappear again, especially if he thought Phoenix was upset with him to the point of being willing to call the police to apprehend a runaway suspect.

The time argument doesn't really seem to hold up to me. If Olga's application got denied, it's highly doubtful she would have gotten hired after resubmitting it, especially if the boss had, in fact, hired someone else to fill whatever position she would have been applying for.


I think you meant to put "play cards on any other night," but just in case you didn't...

He couldn't have passed on the rights on any other night. After he becomes legally deceased, he loses the ability to transfer rights, and they would have automatically passed on to Valant.




Phoenix had plenty of time? Really now? I thought we had established this quite a while ago.

Let's go by your assumption that Phoenix didn't call the murder in(which would make him rather suspicious) and assume that he only did go call the police and Kristoph Gavin.

So, Phoenix goes upstairs(likely to get a better reception), and reports the assault to the police. He then:

Goes downstairs, and finds the scene of the crime.
Notices Zak is dead and goes upstairs to call Kristoph Gavin.
Talks with Kristoph Gavin in poetical terms and then asks for his representation in court should it come to that.
Realizes that Kristoph knows something he should not and returns downstairs.
Notices the swapped card, and figures out which card he would need to forge.
Puts Zak's hat back on his head in order to catch Kristoph.
And, by your theory, then returns upstairs to call Trucy, and then specifies the exact type of card she needs to forge.

The idea that he somehow does all of this before the police arrive seems somewhat...hard to believe, to me. Keep in mind that this assault was called in with the person doing the assault(the assaulter) still being on the premises and still dangerous. Police respond much faster to those incidents than they do "assaulter has left the scene" incidents, and likely would have showed up on the scene rather quickly.

Now, of course, we don't know exactly how close the BBC is to the police department, but we do know it was within walking distance to the Wright and Co. Law Offices(as Phoenix was walking to his job when he got hit by the car before 4-2). Furthermore, considering how quickly Gumshoe showed up on the scene after the call from April May in 1-2, and that the BBC is within walking distance from the Wright and Co. Law Offices...I think it's a fairly safe bet that it's not that short of a trip.

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I'm going to have to disagree, a waitress is less suspicious than either of them. Sure she's not fully impartial, but she's better than either of the players dealing where both have the opportunity to cheat. The fact you claim there's much less room for cheating seems ridiculous to me. The whole reason Dealers exist in Casinos is to ensure no one is cheating (well except maybe the casino ) as a neutral party.

Look at it this way, in any given game the dealer cannot see the cards that are being dealt, therefore they cannot help cheat. If a player deals it is much easier for them to say slip an ace out of the deck for a better hand. The dealer would have to slip that ace out then somehow transfer it to the player at one side of the table without the other player noticing. So no I'm rejecting your idea that a waitress is more suspicious, I imagine the BBC has a policy of firing participants should they cheat at the poker games in order to reassure their clientele but in any case a waitress dealer is much better than a player dealer.



Maybe your response was inadequate but you act like money doesn't assure anything. Like by increasing the money Zak is only increasing the odds, no I mean he literally bought her into the job and I don't really mean he just went to the boss and gave him money to hire her I mean he worked on the chain on the way up to the boss, say an assistant manager or friend/colleague. Besides you don't know he never met her, perhaps with her sterling forged resume and Russian waitress persona she passed an interview and got hired properly thinking she'd bring a level of authenticity to the place.



Well he wouldn't need to go out in the open, if he could hire Olga he could easily hire someone else to deliver the rights for him which eliminates the chance Phoenix could call the police on him. Also as is evident Olga's application DIDN'T get denied therefore he decided he'd do it in person. He still had a couple days to have her or someone else deliver the rights assuming he didn't want to.



Refer to above point about having a little time to still deliver the rights.



Whether he looked suspicious or not hardly matters since they arrested him.
His actions downstairs probably wouldn't take longer than 2-4 minutes tops IF that.
Calls Trucy and says "You need to put a red blotch on an ace of spade, should say vol.8 on it, give it to my defence attorney, don't tell the police". That's 1 minute at most assuming she doesn't answer immediately, the rest could be explained in the detention center if need be.

Also bear in mind Phoenix had calmed Zak down, it's more the police just showing up to arrest rather than control a dangerous scene. They'd also still need to open the door which they'd need Phoenix's cooperation for. April May probably said something along the lines of "Help! Help! There's someone in the apartment across the road, they're trying to kill someone!" to get urgency and things.

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I would disagree on the Casino example. Casino dealers have no vested interest in whoever wins. A waitress, in the BBC, clearly does. Besides, most cheating in Poker actually occurs when there are more people involved at the table, so eliminating one of those people would allow for each person to focus completely on their opponent, thus removing a large portion of the opportunities to cheat.

Besides, which sounds more suspicious? "Some guy's gone defeated for seven years when only people who he works with deal," or, "he's gone defeated for seven years when both players have equal opportunities to deal?"


...er...how exactly do you propose someone just "slips" an ace out of the deck?

"Oh, don't mind me here, just looking through the deck of cards for an ace...aaaannnnddd...found one."

There's no way Phoenix would ever get away with that, especially at a table that only contains him and one other person.


...I find that very difficult to believe.

Think about it this way. When someone has gone undefeated for seven straight years in a game with as much chance as Poker has...the first thought that comes to mind is "cheating." And, in a sense, Phoenix was "cheating"(aka using Trucy to find out what kind of hand the other person had), or, at the very least, not winning by his skill alone. Since the owner of the BBC didn't know how much of a help Trucy was to Phoenix, I would imagine he very well suspected him of cheating, but didn't really care as it was such a considerable source of income to him.


I think I already explained this, but, if you go along with this scenario, you have to accept one of these two possibilities. Either:

A: Zak approached the BBC owner himself.

or B: Zak went through someone else to talk to the BBC owner.

Either scenario presents a plothole with the fact that in 4-4, there had been "no connections found" between anyone involved in the incident(besides Olga) and Shadi Smith. What that means is that, in the follow up investigation, the police likely talked to the BBC owner, and since no connections were found between him and Shadi Smith, he was not, in fact, contacted by him. Same goes for the "B" scenario, as the BBC owner would have referred the police to whatever colleague got Olga the job, and then the police would have found a link from there. So, no, I reject that theory on those grounds, and one more area...

While I'll agree that money is a major influencer on business, let's go through what your assumption is for the moment.

Olga gets a job due to a bribe. Olga then also gets permission to deal for Phoenix's card games. Olga then helps Zak cheat(or, tries to, at least).

Now, assuming for the moment that waitresses were allowed to deal these Poker games, and considering how important Phoenix was to the BBC owner, as well as the seriousness of the games that went down, I find it very difficult to believe that the BBC owner would only give his most trusted employees the right to deal these games, as if they slipped up in dealing, people would begin to get very suspicious of these dealers in the first place. So, if Olga was hired as a random employee, it's incredibly unlikely that she would be allowed to deal games right away, or would even have knowledge as to where the cards were kept, which ties in with an earlier point.

But what if she was hired on her ability to deal cards? That would make the bribe seem even more suspicious to the boss. "Here, please let this girl whom you've never met deal cards for your most prized employee who makes a large amount of money for you each time he plays, and, if he loses even once, your intake from that employee will likely decrease tenfold(as there would be no draw for the undefeated poker champ)."

Considering how much Phoenix insinuates that he makes a large amount of money for the club, I find it difficult to believe that any sort of bribe(unless it was a ridiculous amount) would get Olga hired as a card dealer, and, if she was hired as a waitress, would get her in a position to deal cards.


To quote Edgeworth:

"This single statement has so many things wrong with it, I thought I was going to collapse."

:p

To begin with, it's not evident that Olga's application even existed in the first place, just that she was in the BBC at the night of the game/murder, whether legitimately or not.

Secondly, who in the world would Zak hire whom he would trust enough to send to Phoenix had Olga not gotten the job? Considering how important it was to him that Trucy got the rights instead of Valant, I doubt seriously he would have let a stand in do the job.

Thirdly, I doubt even more so that Phoenix would even be willing to sign it had that been the case. "Here, I swear I'm representing Zak Gramarye, whom you haven't talked to in seven years, and we'd like to preside over a transferral of rights. You ok with that?"

Lastly...perhaps legal procedures aren't something that people here are incredibly up to date on, but when a transfer of rights occurs, you can't simply have "someone else" stand in for you. You need to be present, along with a lawyer, and a witness that can claim that both you(Zak) and your legal advisee(that being Phoenix) both signed it at the appropriate time. You can't simply hire a stand in. So even if you do discard my beliefs as to how Phoenix and Zak would act, this couldn't even happen had Zak really wanted to go with this route.


Police procedure in responding to an assault. This is one area I can actually cover with some confidence, as I happen to know an officer currently in the force.

At any rate, procedure for addressing an assault varies very little so long as the assaulter is on the scene of the crime and not incapacitated(and even if he is, the response will still be virtually the same). The police will not stop to get hot dogs along the way just because Phoenix(or any other witness) claims that they've "calmed him down." In essence, this will be a top-priority response, along the lines of phoning in a robbery in progress.

---

Go ahead an ignore the bit where I said "The BBC probably had a condition where the waitresses' jobs were probably on the line should they try any funny business with the cards."

If Zak had thought that would work he could easily have had Olga blatantly cheat. Zak would go "Your waitress cheats!" and it would still ruin the reputation of the BBC and Phoenix along with it.



Sleight of hand son, and why not? He picked up her perceptive abilities pretty quickly why not a sleight of hand trick? Besides your point is meaningless. It's not whether Phoenix COULD cheat that way it's avoiding people from saying he could. Hence a neutral party deals. Whether he's taking cards or influencing his opponents deals these are all things people could call foul. Hence a policy on a more neutral dealer where the two players don't touch the deck at all.



Reading your opponent is a perfectly valid way of playing and we know Phoenix is really good at it since he won legitly with those skills. Why would anyone assume he just cheats? He's got legitimate skills he could easily play the BBC owner when he first joined to prove he had a marketable talent for the BBC to use.



Police are incompetent, or someone simply said "I don't remember". Simple Zak bought their silence as well as their aid. Though you'll recall I never suggested the A scenario at all. Olga could have even acted as the briber using Zak's money so of course no one would recall Shadi Smith.



Olga was hired for her card dealing skills: Yes
The Boss was directly bribed into letting her in: No
Ola was hired legitly but her credentials are fake (at least partially), as are her references which people possibly were possibly bribed to get her in: Yes.

These are the points I'm making, I'm not going to say the BBC owner would put a total suspicious wildcard in this point. Just a regular employee, plus if you'll recall as YOU brought up earlier it was Zak who requested she deal their game rather than anyone being assigned to it.



Recall I warned someone for the disrespect they showed you in the other thread, you would do well to heed that warning too.

To begin with: Olga says she was hired, that's damn sight more evidence her application exists than your "She just snuck in theory".

Secondly: If it was so important as you say he would go in person. Bear in mind during the whole of case 1 he was at risk. It's the same situation if Olga doesn't get the job only there is no game to be played. He clearly is willing to take a risk to pass on the rights.

Thirdly: Zak's note could easily include some proof of authenticity, perhaps some detail from their poker game all those years ago that no one else sat it on. That's assuming the Gramarye documentation doesn't have some seal or crest that Trucy could identify as another alternative.

Lastly: Sure cept clearly the legal procedures are different in the AA world. Phoenix doesn't count as a legal advisee at the point in time where they do transfer the rights. Zak sort of ensured that by having his badge revoked. By your own process the transfer couldn't have taken place, Phoenix's signature would only be credible as a current guardian of the person who is to receive the rights. My memory is fuzzy but I think the witness was Brushel. Therefore since the transfer DID take place for sure we can assume no legal advisor is necessary. Perhaps a legal advisor is required to write up the transferance in the first place but that could be any number of law offices outside America.



Fine, Door, locked, Phoenix, Key, wait for him to open it.
Also procedure doesn't guarantee an exact situation, external elements and circumstances apply such as "the guy has calmed down he's sitting downstairs". I'm not suggesting they "stop for hot dogs" that's pretty gross negligence I'm suggesting they might not break the door down in an attempt to get in the building or run red lights (though I guess that's within their jurisdiction).

---

Firstly, again, the head of the BBC would never let a waitress get that close to dealing the game.

Secondly, that ties back into my earlier point as to why Olga wouldn't work there. If Olga did work there, and she cheated and was called out by Zak, then there would be major repercussions. If she didn't, a quick investigation would reveal she didn't really work there and that would be the end of those allegations. Perhaps it's even more telling that waitresses don't routinely deal cards at the restaurant by the fact that Zak didn't simply take that route, and instead went with attempting to plant a card on Phoenix instead.


...

Again, no disrespect intended here, but I'm not entirely sure you're getting the point here.

You cannot mess with the deck in the middle of a game with two people. As Apollo pointed out in 4-1, putting a new card into your hand is "impossible." There's no magic card trick one can do to somehow alleviate the opponent's attention long enough to sneak in a new card.

Most card cheating actually goes on when there are many people at the table, and therefore it's less likely for one person to be focusing on you.

There's no real way that he could influence an opponent's hand, either. I'm sure you're well aware of how, in Poker games, regardless of whether there's a dealer or not, someone at the table always cuts the deck(sometimes cutting it twice). This would effectively remove any opportunity for someone to cheat by influencing a hand.


Regardless of whether it's legitimate or not, my guess is that the BBC owner didn't know about his exceptional perceptive-ness, and, would likely begin to think after someone winning for seven straight years, that something was up.


While I'll grant that the police are incompetent in AA, I think even they would have found out after six months. If they had been bribed to keep their mouths shut(which then leads to a question of where Zak's getting all this money from in the first place), the death of Zak would inevitably lead back to these people. Death has a funny way of making people willing to go back on previous promises to protect themselves.


Unless Zak knows a ton of restaurant owners, I really don't think that would work(bribing for references).

Secondly, refer to earlier point made about the boss likely not trusting new waitresses with dealing cards(assuming they did). Yeah, he could have included a "don't screw up or you get fired" clause, but what would that matter to someone who got bribed for a huge sum of money to throw the game? The boss knew how much money and pride was going around in these circles, he wouldn't leave it up to a simple clause like that.


As indicated by the ":p" it was merely a joke(and an Edgeworth line that fit rather well, I might add).

If you took serious offense to it, I apologize, but I can assure you nothing was meant in seriousness.


...really? The words of someone who already lied about who actually hit who with a bottle, who was winning the card game, the cards that were in the deck, the plan to trap Phoenix, and what happened to her count as evidence in any way, shape, or form?


...this kind of seems like exactly what I've been saying...so not really sure what to respond with here.


Considering how many prosecutors could have easily obtained access to footage of that game, and might be willing to put something like that out there to act as bait to get, say Valant to confess, I doubt that there would be some secret seal that would work that well.


Phoenix actually does, in fact, point that out in 4-4, that he's not a lawyer anymore, but Zak goes through with it anyway. Perhaps since he's still held in esteem by the courts(enough so to get them to entrust him with running the Jurist System). Or perhaps the court systems are different. Regardless, Zak would still have to be present, or else you would leave yourself open to the barrage of transferral fraud that would occur when letters with faked signatures were sent to lawyers and then signed.


Again, police code tells them to disregard whether the subject is supposedly "calmed down" or not. The reason being is that even if he is calmed down at the moment the call's being made, he could very well become incensed again during the drive there, so it's still a top priority response.

At any rate, I highly doubt Phoenix would be allowed to stand there and talk to Trucy(as he was on the first floor of the BBC when he made those calls), which sort of eliminates that time frame.

---

Right I'm going to have to stop you here. A lot of your points are based on the characterisation of the BBC owner. We know nothing of this character, whether he is a trusting man, a jovial man, a suspicious man, a woman!

Perhaps he shares the demeanour of the Berry Big Circus owner and naively trusts all his employees. We don't know. Since we don't I'd kindly ask you to stick to evidence and precedents and ignore this BBC's input since we know nothing of them and therefore shouldn't make assumptions.

Whoever was in charge that night clearly authorised Olga to deal otherwise Phoenix would say "That's not quite how we do things here" therefore it is assumed it is fine for waitresses to deal.



Opportunistic drivel, Zak could have done that but his issue was with Phoenix not the BBC, Zak may be a vengeful man at Poker but I doubt he'd bring a business to his knees when he was a chance to specifically show up the one man. Plus Olga might have objected to the plan getting her so deeply involved as to be accused.



Sure there is,
Sorry to drop a wiki link but a lot of the methods here can easily be controlled by the dealer, ESPECIALLY if the dealer has access to the deck beforehand. Like someone like Phoenix would if he was sole dealer. Also Magic card tricks are all about redirecting your attention so I don't know how you can have such a grasp of the field to say it's impossible when misdirection and sleight of hand are it's specialty



Aside from my previous point asking you to stop assuming things about the BBC owner since you paint them rather suspicious, Phoenix could simply have said he's extremely good at playing poker.



Sure if any of them knew who Zak was, remember I suggested Olga did the bribing since it was her who wanted the job. Zak got his money from the poker tournaments he went around playing during his exile.



Well restaurant owners are one thing but I was more meaning waitresses who can vouch for her talents. One previous employer is typically required on a CV so I reckon that is simple enough to acquire. Hell if it's a written reference done over email or letter rather in person it could be entirely fabricated. Again, don't know the boss, don't include him especially since this point relies on him being untrusting. While an honourable profession, waitressing isn't so elite that you need a reference list as big as your arm to get in. Olga might already have clocked some experience waitressing in her life (would help her blend in) for all we knew but it wouldn't be so difficult.




Yeah because not everything she said was a lie in her testimony, though I hardly think who got hit with the bottle was a lie, I assumed that was a brief amnesia as a result of the concussion. The role in AA games is to expose lies and they typically do get exposed, the fact she worked at the BBC is neither opposed nor overturned in the course of AA therefore her testimony is credible to my argument more than your 'out of the blue' conjecture.



Well your given response indicates a kind of disregard for previous points I've come to expect. You were saying Zak wouldn't risk going in person on another day to exchange the rights. Zak took the same risk on that night. No reason to assume he wouldn't go on another night.



You have no proof that prosecutors can access detention center footage. Indeed the games seem to indicate that in spite of the camera, detention center footage is kept private. Perhaps the camera doesn't capture audio and is merely intended to provide protection as a cue for when more security should go and to ensure the visitors don't pass suspicious objects to the accused but I don't think anyone sees them. Consider case 2-4, Matt Engarde blatantly reveals his criminal nature on camera. Bear in mind the prosecutor was a 'revived' Edgeworth with a focus on truth why wouldn't he use it as evidence? Unless the camera doesn't capture audio in which case it probably doesn't see much more than a glass of gravy from nowhere and Matt pushing his hair back. It would make sense for there to be some outlet for the accused to talk to their clients in confidentiality. Perhaps the Camera doesn't even tape? It simply serves to observe so that other guards can rush to the scene if there is an issue. There's masses of evidence suggesting the camera is worthless as evidence. Also each Gramarye member has two unique symbols, a suit symbol from a card (as a broach) and a belt buckle with the first letter of their name stylised on it. Even if there's not some symbol that indicates 'Gramarye' he could include any of these items to let Phoenix know "This is Zak Gramarye" because Trucy would definitely cotton onto pieces of her fathers old uniform.



Then either the transferral or rights is worthless or the law will allow for Phoenix to do it without being a legal advisor because the court systems are different like you said. Also while I don't know about transferral fraud but Zak's signature would hardly be faked so I'm not sure what you are getting at here. Even then as I pointed out earlier, Zak is willing to risk going into the open to pass on these rights.



Again as I mentioned earlier, they might not even be able to see Phoenix making the call. The call need not be long and he could already have started. The police arrive to deal with an attack and so don't like Kristoph mentioned probably didn't suspect him of a murder. Saying you were calling your daughter to let her know you'd be back later seems like a responsible parent than anything else. Though I still think the call could easily be done in time.

---

Rather ironic, considering the entirety of your assumption that Olga is actually hired at the BBC is based on your characterization of the BBC owner. If he was the demeanor of the Berry Big Circus, he could easily be naive enough to miss something like that. He was apparently nice enough to either continue to let her work at the BBC(assuming she was hired beforehand) or actually hire her(had she not been) as shown in the credits of AJ, so now that we're questioning owner personalities, I don't think your earlier claims about this being difficult for Olga stand up very well.

Your arguments draw just as much from assumptions as mine do.


Zak was willing to knowingly let Phoenix present forged evidence in court and have him lose his badge(as shown by the fact that he had the real diary page in 4-4). Zak was willing to let the man who stood up to defend him lose everything, I have no problems picturing him taking down a business of which he knew little to nothing about.


All of the non obvious(and by non obvious I mean the first two paragraphs where it talks about stealing chips and looking at the other person's cards) methods listed(save one) in that link have to do with the dealer adjusting the deck before the game(e.g marking cards, cold cutting deck, etc.). Which ties in very nicely with my theory that Phoenix didn't bring the cards to the table, but that's another point.

Anyways, all of these methods are simply dealt with by cutting the cards, or burning a few cards before placing the cards down. If the game had a standard Poker procedure, such as, say, the non-dealer gets to decide how many cards to burn, or multiple deck cuts, it would be virtually impossible to cheat. That article really doesn't help your argument much.


It's simple logic, really. All you have to do is take a look at Zak.

Zak was a man who valued winning over Poker more than literally just about anything else. What could he not do? Beat Phoenix. Couldn't he have just cheated and beaten him that way? No, he had to hire a professional card shark to make Phoenix lose(and even then he still couldn't do it). So if cheating is such an easy to do practice, why is it that Zak never did any of these tricks earlier? Particularly in the game between him and Phoenix in jail, when there was no other dealer in the first place?


...

Let me throw out a name here. Greg Merson is the current best Poker player in the world. He's the current champion of the World Series of Poker. He was also recently recruited to go on some Poker show where young players who wanted a shot at him could have one in a game of one on one. Guess what? He lost a couple of those games. The best Poker player in the world...lost. He couldn't even go a year undefeated.

Now think about Phoenix, who's likely nowhere near the best player in the world, and going seven straight years without a loss. Unless the BBC is a complete idiot, he would have had to been suspecting something.


Now I'm the one who has to ask you to stop making assumptions about people.

You assume here that Zak trusts Olga enough to go out and get herself bribed into a job with his money. I personally can find no record of Zak's personality being anywhere near that trustworthy, especially considering her reaction to her after their trap failed. If you can, by all means, provide it.


Dare I say it's never opposed nor overturned because Phoenix never let it be?

Recall that Kristoph was breaking down Olga right before Phoenix stepped in. In all likelihood, Kristoph would have exposed her as a complete fake had Phoenix not done so. Of course, Phoenix needed as little suspicion on her at the time to being his counterattack against Kristoph, so that's not really all that non-understandable.

Besides, whether or not her testimony gives more credibility to one side or the other isn't the point here.


Sure there is. What if Phoenix called the police, and they began searching the area for him? That would cause quite a bit of concern.


Godot had the ability to sit in on a private conversation between Morgan Fey and Dahlia Hawthorne. Even if you're going to suggest that somehow, video footage would be off limits while real time conversations would not be, any prosecutor/police officer could have simply sat in and listened to their conversation during the game.


Simply put, private statements not made while under oath only qualify as "hearsay," regardless of whether you have video footage or not. 2-2 is an excellent example of this: Von Karma had a picture taken of Phoenix and Mia discussing things in jail, but was not allowed to submit it as evidence.


So there would just happen to be bribed waitresses who would vouch for her as well? How many people are you suggesting are in on this conspiracy again?


It would also make sense if the court actually made sure the attorneys were who they claimed to be before the case. Sadly, they don't. Very little makes sense in the AA world.

As for the camera, it really doesn't matter whether it was live or not, as I pointed out earlier.


Again, what would there be to stop someone, like, say, Valant, from using those symbols, forging a letter, and getting the rights transferred to him? That argument's pretty weak, especially considering how well Valant and many others would have known Zak's outfit.


Not sure I follow. Elaborate.


I find it difficult to believe Phoenix could do all of that in the time it took the police to reach there, but since this is all based on conjecture, there's no way we'll ever be able to prove it one way or another.

At any rate, to sum up what we have so far, your argument seems to go something like this:

Olga must have been hired, because the boss wouldn't be dumb enough to miss something like a fake waitress.
But the boss would be dumb enough to let someone he's barely even met deal cards for his prized poker player.
Additionally, the boss is also dumb enough to not suspect Phoenix of cheating.
The boss is also a bribable man and doesn't thoroughly check references.
The boss also happened to be hiring waitresses at just the right time as well.
Olga could then deal cards which were from the BBC, which then Zak would go along with. Phoenix could then describe these cards over the phone if need be(because somehow he would know exactly how to describe them to Trucy).
Olga would then be willing to lie about nearly everything else except the fact that she was legitimately hired at the BBC.

Going back to the earlier point about assumptions...it kinda seems like there's a whole lotta assumptions being made in this argument right here. A whole lot of assumptions...where if one of these assumptions is wrong, the entire argument falls apart.

Just a thought.

---

To start I'll say I've lost confidence in your ability to debate, I realised why your arguments have no conviction to them, because they don't explain anything. You ain't trying to argue "Who really forged the bloody Ace" you don't have any idea or theory, your just nitpicking at mine by going into grey areas left by the game where it's difficult to get an absolute victor and when that fails you ignore common sense and canon to put forward your conjecture. You misread and misunderstand other people's statements to the point I have to say "No that's not what I'm saying" and never seem to acknowledge any problems. But hey what problems would there be to a guy who doesn't have any idea what he's arguing for and is simply looking for trouble. I looked at your first point last night before I went to sleep and I lost sleep over the stupidity of it and how infuriating it was so I might not argue further after this.



My assumption is based by the game telling us so and no one contradicting it or objecting to it. Ignored as I barely bring the BBC owner into this at all. Drop your BBC assumptions.



So you are suggesting Zak would allow collateral damage in his attempt to get revenge on Phoenix.....by getting revenge specifically on Phoenix by letting him lose his badge? I was always under the impression Zak didn't know about the diary page but your argument doesn't indicate Zak's willingness to step on other people to hurt Phoenix.



Another incident of you making nonsensical statements, why could Phoenix not bring the cards to the table? If your suggesting he dealt his own games for years he would specifically be bringing his own cards. I suggested several time the cards were bought by Phoenix and stored onsite. He could easily access them and stack the deck if he likes. Cutting would mix it up a little but he could use marked cards to indicate a specific point in the deck. I understand a waitress is still not fully impartial but cheating needs some evidence, if cheating is a sackable offence that's enough encouragement for the waitresses, they are far more easily replaced than Phoenix.



You are assuming a man would automatically cheat to win poker. Zak is a proud man, his attempt to cheat to beat him wasn't about winning, it was about ruining his reputation and revenge. There's no reason he'd just cheat in any old game just because he was losing he doesn't have a great history of cheating that we're aware of. Though really I don't know why Zak as a extremely good card player would have that challenge, sounds like a great way to get a bad state-appointed-attorney.



Let me drop a little revelation here...

Fiction! Wonderful things can be done with it. Mannfred Von Karma can go 40 years without a loss, disabled men can orchestrate death traps, legendary thiefs go around stealing in brightly coloured costumes, Empty Blue Badger costumes can jump up to the Judge's podium to prevent the gavel from landing and ending a case early.

Firstly Phoenix's career is probably nowhere near as intense as someone so in the spotlight in reality I doubt he's had as much work. Also reality-AA comparisons don't really work due to the fantastical nature of the series. Also PHOENIX HAS MAGICAL POWERS HELPING HIM OUT whenever he feels pressured. I'm not saying Phoenix has won every hand but he wins every game in the end. Again this is based on an assumption about the BBC owner so drop it.



Zak trusted Phoenix to adopt his daughter after he left without any prior instructions. Leaving your daughter in the hands of an almost complete stranger. That's pretty trusting.



In all likelihood your are spewing waffle and conjecture. You've got no evidence what she said was a lie, the game gave no indication that it is a lie so you can hardly say 'Kristoph was right on the verge of revealing her' because you can't be sure she is. If anything she would have revealed that when she revealed her true nature but she didn't so you can drop this point.



OH CONTRAIRE



The point that started my argument was you directly bringing up her credibility. Implying that because she lied about a bunch of things perhaps she lied about everything. This is what I was talking about with you not accepting consequences, you just try and roll onto something else as if nothing was wrong.



There's no reason to say he couldn't have done that on the actual night when they played poker. Though he didn't call the police (at least not for the point of capturing Zak) so....what's your point? Phoenix has shown that he doesn't hold such a grudge as when Zak wants to improve the quality of life and future of Trucy so as to turn him in already. It's the same risk.



It would require some special attention for a prosecutor to sit in on a conversation....such as the attention Godot would give Dahlia Hawthorne. Godot's even shown he'd be willing to go above and beyond the law for revenge on Dahlia so there's no way to show he was doing something legal when he heard that information.



That's an unusual but good point, if Von Karma couldn't submit something in taken in the detention center then you kind of defeat the original point that prosecutors could use any kind of recording taken there. Though did Von Karma have a picture or the camera footage?



Sorry if you can't keep up. I'm suggesting one waitress or two to vouch for her. Forged credentials everywhere else.



Yes but as you pointed out earlier, stuff taken in there only counts as 'hearsay' and can't be presented in court. Though to follow your logic defies your entire premise that 'it's mighty coincidental for the hiring to be at the right time' it might seem strange and make little sense but in AA world coincidences happen, live with it.



Could probably make an argument that the broaches are one of a kind, Trucy could probably validate authenticity. Also how would Valant get Phoenix to sign away the rights to him? Even if he forged the letter Phoenix would know Zak wasn't legally dead yet. Besides Zak is willing to go in person to transfer rights so this is all a moot point.



Certainly you said:


Implying that a letter sent to Phoenix could have a faked signature, but if Zak signed it beforehand why would it be fake?



Right to counter something about assumptions...

Olga must have been hired, because the game tells us so and no contradicts it even when Olga is squealing all the surprises.
The boss DOES let someone he's arguably barely met to deal cards in canon.
There is no indicattion the boss suspects Phoenix of cheating it is YOUR assumption he does. You also assume Phoenix never had to prove his poker skill to the boss.
I never suggested the boss was bribed, in fact I went out of my way to say they wouldn't approach him. As for checking referenes they were faked/Zak could pose as one. At this point we are getting into grey areas were assumptions are necessary as there is no evidence...oh apart from the next point...
The boss happened to be hiring waitresses at the right time...because Olga DID get hired, see point one where no one contradicts it, therefore canon she did get hired a couple days before meaning references or whatever were checked out or not required or in any case she was hired legitly.
Phoenix could easily describe the card to Trucy because the Ace of spades had a distinctive volume number on them and the card she forged and gave to Apollo was actually accepted as THE card showing it was a convincing match in canon.
You said "Olga was willing to lie about everything except from the fact she was legitimately hired by the BBC" you are implying that that last part is a lie so it's your own bias assumption being used here.

Going back to your cheekiness to accuse me of mass assumptions...I can back my arguments up with evidence in the most part, your 'representation' of my argument makes a lot of assumptions and puts words in my mouth.

You don't actually have an argument or a theory just complaints and issues so I don't really see why I should pay your words heed at this point.

Phoenix could easily mention the card over the phone to Trucy the police may be fast and arrive at the door mid-call but they still need Phoenix to let them in. Instructions are simple and specific and if further information was needed it could be provided at the detention center since you indicate that stuff there cannot be used in evidence.

---

If you'll recall, neither of us were debating that in the first place. This debate started over whether or not Phoenix could have called Trucy from the BBC in the first place, which was one of the key points of the main argument overall: "Who really forged the ace?" I thought that it was unlikely that Phoenix could have, considering how many factors would have to go into that situation for that to happen(e.g, whether he could describe the cards quickly to her and how quickly the police would have gotten there). You disagreed, and that led to the "nitpicky" debate we have now.

If you're going to accuse me of having no argument that relates to the original topic, please keep in mind what we were arguing about in the first place.


Before I respond to this, let me say I mean no offense to you as a person, but this will inevitably come with some form of offensive response, so please don't take it as such.

For you to say this is, first off, not only hypocritical, but also contrary to the very Ace Attorney world in the first place. Of course there will be no absolute victor. There rarely is in debate, and if you think you're going to come up with an absolute victor every time you disagree on something, you are going to be very sorry. Take a look at the presidential debates. None of them(with the possible exception of the first this year) had a clear cut winner. Debate's done for the fun of it, not to settle some massive issue(unless you're running for political office, in which case the point appears to be to drag your opponent into the mud as much as possible. If you're not having fun, then why, I must ask, are you doing this in the first place?

Secondly, you claim I am ignoring common sense. Yet we are arguing in a world where people's backgrounds and not checked before trials, where the judge is an imbecile, where people can impersonate attorney's with cardboard badges, where "a monkey head has fallen in the middle of the road and no one can walk around it" is a legitimate explanation, and where people can sign letters of transferral without being a lawyer currently. There is very little "common sense" in the AA world.

As for ignoring canon, the only "canon" you have referenced so far is the shaky testimony of a fake Russian waitress turned card shark. That's incredibly loose grounds for basing any theory.


First off, if you are going to accuse me of being insulting, make sure you do not partake in the same thing yourself, good sir.

Secondly, as mentioned before, this is conjectural debate. It's for fun. It's also on an Ace Attorney forum. If you are legitimately at the point where you are losing sleep over this...I question whether or not it would be good for you to be debating at all. It's the internet. Don't take things so seriously.

Now, on to your responses...


The game also "told" you that Phoenix forged the bloody ace, and no one in the game objected to it either. By that very standard, you basically admit your entire position is wrong.


Replay/watch the flashback of 4-4, where Zak meets Phoenix in the BBC. I'd quote it but I have to go fairly soon so I'll keep this short and sweet.


Firstly, if you are going to suggest that I need evidence to prove a waitress to cheat, then you need evidence to prove Phoenix would cheat.

Secondly, I must ask, have you played Poker before at all? Even if Phoenix somehow stacked the deck in his favor(which, judging from Phoenix's personality in the games, is unlikely), a simple shuffling of the deck beforehand would completely ruin that. No one ever brings a cold-cut deck to a game.

Any marked card would be noticed by any sort of experienced Poker player, and would be thrown out.

Cutting also does not "mix it up a little." It prevents cheating. Phoenix, assuming he stacked the deck for that hand, would lose everything he planned on getting when the cards were cut and the bottom half was placed on top of each other. Outside of some incredible odds, there is no way cheating could occur in a situation like that.

If you are seriously going to accuse me of nonsensical responses, I would suggest you do some research beforehand and perhaps play a little Poker while you're at it.


...you essentially answered your own question.

Zak cheated against Phoenix why? To restore his reputation. If he was losing in another game, what might he do? Cheat. Why? To keep his own reputation from being tarnished in the first place.


I really must thank you for making my own point for me. Watch this.


Aaaannnnddd guess what Manfred was doing all those 40 years? You guessed it: Cheating! Making deals with witnesses, falsifying evidence, tazoring attorneys to get evidence, etc.


Not exactly sure how this proves anything...


Or this...


Was in the movie, not the game, so not technically canon, but regardless, again, so what?

Besides, if you're going to say here that "it's fiction, anything can happen," then how in the world can you be so quick to dismiss my "she snuck in" theory? Your entire argument against that rests on whether people act realistically in a restaurant or not.


That is EXACTLY THE POINT. He HAS "magical powers." The entire point here is that he HAS those magical powers, and he didn't just get his seven year streak because "lol it's fiction." The boss doesn't KNOW that though.

And this entire debate is BASED on assumptions. Whether or not the police could arrive in time. Whether or not prosecutors can access certain discussions. Whether or not Olga could sneak in. You can't pick and choose which assumptions you will dismiss and which you'll keep.


As I recall, he didn't particularly care all that much about Trucy. He simply used her to escape, and didn't even plan where she would live next. He was far more concerned with his own getaway than Trucy's future.


And you have no evidence that what she said was the truth. Tell me, when someone lies to you six times in a row, how likely are you to believe their seventh statement?


What would you prefer I said? Tell you I think she lied again? You believe she was telling the truth, I don't. Neither of us have a way to prove whether she did or didn't, so the point's moot. Might as well move on to something else, unless you particularly enjoy rehashing the same things over and over again.


Oh, look. Assumptions. And I thought you hated those.

My argument isn't whether or not Phoenix would have called the police or not. It's whether Zak believed Phoenix might have(since he was paranoid of being found out). And Zak basically was watching Phoenix the entire night, so there was no way he could have.


Yet again, my point isn't whether or not a prosecutor would have done this(as Klavier would likely not have). It's simply whether the possibility exists at all, and then whether or not Zak would be willing to chance that to show off his secret symbols or tell Phoenix something that could get him in trouble. That's all.


I believe there is a difference as to whether or not prosecutors can submit things in court, and then use them in an investigation. Von Karma had a picture(so we don't know for sure whether she had footage or not), and she also knew quite a bit about the Kurain Channeling technique(which could have come from either video taping Phoenix/Mia's conversation or from talking to Morgan). We won't know for sure either way.

At any rate, a prosecutor could have simply sat in and listened instead of recording the conversation. Zak would be aware of that.


Let me make sure I've got this straight: Forged credentials as in fake restaurants she's worked in before?


I'm willing to admit that coincidences do happen. However, the reason I believe all of this didn't happen is because so many coincidences had to have occurred at the same time. I'm not ruling it out as a possibility, but I don't believe that's what happened.


Trucy would have been eight when she last saw whatever broach this was. I sincerely doubt that, seven years later, she could remember it well enough to spot a fake.

As for how Valant would do it, he would simply send a letter with a witness which would read exactly like the one Zak wrote for Trucy, but instead of giving rights to Trucy, they would give them to Valant. He would forge a letter from Zak to him.

At any rate, if you're willing to concede he would only have gone in person, then I will agree, as that was my point from the beginning.


Ah. I think I know where the confusion has come from.

Let's say, for example, Valant went to someone like Drew Misham with an example of Zak's signature. The forger then forged Zak's signature upon this fake "transferral document" and sent it to Phoenix.


To start I'll say I've lost confidence in your ability to debate, I realised why your arguments have no conviction to them, because they don't explain anything. You ain't trying to argue "Who really forged the bloody Ace" you don't have any idea or theory, your just nitpicking at mine by going into grey areas left by the game where it's difficult to get an absolute victor and when that fails you ignore common sense and canon to put forward your conjecture. You misread and misunderstand other people's statements to the point I have to say "No that's not what I'm saying" and never seem to acknowledge any problems. But hey what problems would there be to a guy who doesn't have any idea what he's arguing for and is simply looking for trouble. I looked at your first point last night before I went to sleep and I lost sleep over the stupidity of it and how infuriating it was so I might not argue further after this.

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Rather ironic, considering the entirety of your assumption that Olga is actually hired at the BBC is based on your characterization of the BBC owner. If he was the demeanor of the Berry Big Circus, he could easily be naive enough to miss something like that. He was apparently nice enough to either continue to let her work at the BBC(assuming she was hired beforehand) or actually hire her(had she not been) as shown in the credits of AJ, so now that we're questioning owner personalities, I don't think your earlier claims about this being difficult for Olga stand up very well.

Your arguments draw just as much from assumptions as mine


My assumption is based by the game telling us so and no one contradicting it or objecting to it. Ignored as I barely bring the BBC owner into this at all. Drop your BBC assumptions.

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Zak was willing to knowingly let Phoenix present forged evidence in court and have him lose his badge(as shown by the fact that he had the real diary page in 4-4). Zak was willing to let the man who stood up to defend him lose everything, I have no problems picturing him taking down a business of which he knew little to nothing about.


So you are suggesting Zak would allow collateral damage in his attempt to get revenge on Phoenix.....by getting revenge specifically on Phoenix by letting him lose his badge? I was always under the impression Zak didn't know about the diary page but your argument doesn't indicate Zak's willingness to step on other people to hurt Phoenix.

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All of the non obvious(and by non obvious I mean the first two paragraphs where it talks about stealing chips and looking at the other person's cards) methods listed(save one) in that link have to do with the dealer adjusting the deck before the game(e.g marking cards, cold cutting deck, etc.). Which ties in very nicely with my theory that Phoenix didn't bring the cards to the table, but that's another point.

Anyways, all of these methods are simply dealt with by cutting the cards, or burning a few cards before placing the cards down. If the game had a standard Poker procedure, such as, say, the non-dealer gets to decide how many cards to burn, or multiple deck cuts, it would be virtually impossible to cheat. That article really doesn't help your argument much.


Another incident of you making nonsensical statements, why could Phoenix not bring the cards to the table? If your suggesting he dealt his own games for years he would specifically be bringing his own cards. I suggested several time the cards were bought by Phoenix and stored onsite. He could easily access them and stack the deck if he likes. Cutting would mix it up a little but he could use marked cards to indicate a specific point in the deck. I understand a waitress is still not fully impartial but cheating needs some evidence, if cheating is a sackable offence that's enough encouragement for the waitresses, they are far more easily replaced than Phoenix.

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It's simple logic, really. All you have to do is take a look at Zak.

Zak was a man who valued winning over Poker more than literally just about anything else. What could he not do? Beat Phoenix. Couldn't he have just cheated and beaten him that way? No, he had to hire a professional card shark to make Phoenix lose(and even then he still couldn't do it). So if cheating is such an easy to do practice, why is it that Zak never did any of these tricks earlier? Particularly in the game between him and Phoenix in jail, when there was no other dealer in the first place?


You are assuming a man would automatically cheat to win poker. Zak is a proud man, his attempt to cheat to beat him wasn't about winning, it was about ruining his reputation and revenge. There's no reason he'd just cheat in any old game just because he was losing he doesn't have a great history of cheating that we're aware of. Though really I don't know why Zak as a extremely good card player would have that challenge, sounds like a great way to get a bad state-appointed-attorney.

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Now think about Phoenix, who's likely nowhere near the best player in the world, and going seven straight years without a loss. Unless the BBC is a complete idiot, he would have had to been suspecting something.


Let me drop a little revelation here...

Fiction! Wonderful things can be done with it. Mannfred Von Karma can go 40 years without a loss, disabled men can orchestrate death traps, legendary thiefs go around stealing in brightly coloured costumes, Empty Blue Badger costumes can jump up to the Judge's podium to prevent the gavel from landing and ending a case early.

Firstly Phoenix's career is probably nowhere near as intense as someone so in the spotlight in reality I doubt he's had as much work. Also reality-AA comparisons don't really work due to the fantastical nature of the series. Also PHOENIX HAS MAGICAL POWERS HELPING HIM OUT whenever he feels pressured. I'm not saying Phoenix has won every hand but he wins every game in the end. Again this is based on an assumption about the BBC owner so drop it.

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Post subject: Re: Who really forged the bloody Ace in Turnabout Trump? Reply with quote
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Right I'm going to have to stop you here. A lot of your points are based on the characterisation of the BBC owner. We know nothing of this character, whether he is a trusting man, a jovial man, a suspicious man, a woman!

Perhaps he shares the demeanour of the Berry Big Circus owner and naively trusts all his employees. We don't know. Since we don't I'd kindly ask you to stick to evidence and precedents and ignore this BBC's input since we know nothing of them and therefore shouldn't make assumptions.

Whoever was in charge that night clearly authorised Olga to deal otherwise Phoenix would say "That's not quite how we do things here" therefore it is assumed it is fine for waitresses to deal.

Rather ironic, considering the entirety of your assumption that Olga is actually hired at the BBC is based on your characterization of the BBC owner. If he was the demeanor of the Berry Big Circus, he could easily be naive enough to miss something like that. He was apparently nice enough to either continue to let her work at the BBC(assuming she was hired beforehand) or actually hire her(had she not been) as shown in the credits of AJ, so now that we're questioning owner personalities, I don't think your earlier claims about this being difficult for Olga stand up very well.

Your arguments draw just as much from assumptions as mine do.

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Opportunistic drivel, Zak could have done that but his issue was with Phoenix not the BBC, Zak may be a vengeful man at Poker but I doubt he'd bring a business to his knees when he was a chance to specifically show up the one man. Plus Olga might have objected to the plan getting her so deeply involved as to be accused.

Zak was willing to knowingly let Phoenix present forged evidence in court and have him lose his badge(as shown by the fact that he had the real diary page in 4-4). Zak was willing to let the man who stood up to defend him lose everything, I have no problems picturing him taking down a business of which he knew little to nothing about.

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Sorry to drop a wiki link but a lot of the methods here can easily be controlled by the dealer, ESPECIALLY if the dealer has access to the deck beforehand. Like someone like Phoenix would if he was sole dealer. Also Magic card tricks are all about redirecting your attention so I don't know how you can have such a grasp of the field to say it's impossible when misdirection and sleight of hand are it's specialty

All of the non obvious(and by non obvious I mean the first two paragraphs where it talks about stealing chips and looking at the other person's cards) methods listed(save one) in that link have to do with the dealer adjusting the deck before the game(e.g marking cards, cold cutting deck, etc.). Which ties in very nicely with my theory that Phoenix didn't bring the cards to the table, but that's another point.

Anyways, all of these methods are simply dealt with by cutting the cards, or burning a few cards before placing the cards down. If the game had a standard Poker procedure, such as, say, the non-dealer gets to decide how many cards to burn, or multiple deck cuts, it would be virtually impossible to cheat. That article really doesn't help your argument much.

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Also Magic card tricks are all about redirecting your attention so I don't know how you can have such a grasp of the field to say it's impossible when misdirection and sleight of hand are it's specialty

It's simple logic, really. All you have to do is take a look at Zak.

Zak was a man who valued winning over Poker more than literally just about anything else. What could he not do? Beat Phoenix. Couldn't he have just cheated and beaten him that way? No, he had to hire a professional card shark to make Phoenix lose(and even then he still couldn't do it). So if cheating is such an easy to do practice, why is it that Zak never did any of these tricks earlier? Particularly in the game between him and Phoenix in jail, when there was no other dealer in the first place?

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Aside from my previous point asking you to stop assuming things about the BBC owner since you paint them rather suspicious, Phoenix could simply have said he's extremely good at playing poker.

...

Let me throw out a name here. Greg Merson is the current best Poker player in the world. He's the current champion of the World Series of Poker. He was also recently recruited to go on some Poker show where young players who wanted a shot at him could have one in a game of one on one. Guess what? He lost a couple of those games. The best Poker player in the world...lost. He couldn't even go a year undefeated.

Now think about Phoenix, who's likely nowhere near the best player in the world, and going seven straight years without a loss. Unless the BBC is a complete idiot, he would have had to been suspecting something.

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Sure if any of them knew who Zak was, remember I suggested Olga did the bribing since it was her who wanted the job. Zak got his money from the poker tournaments he went around playing during his exile.

Now I'm the one who has to ask you to stop making assumptions about people.

You assume here that Zak trusts Olga enough to go out and get herself bribed into a job with his money. I personally can find no record of Zak's personality being anywhere near that trustworthy, especially considering her reaction to her after their trap failed. If you can, by all means, provide it.


Zak trusted Phoenix to adopt his daughter after he left without any prior instructions. Leaving your daughter in the hands of an almost complete stranger. That's pretty trusting.

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Dare I say it's never opposed nor overturned because Phoenix never let it be?

Recall that Kristoph was breaking down Olga right before Phoenix stepped in. In all likelihood, Kristoph would have exposed her as a complete fake had Phoenix not done so. Of course, Phoenix needed as little suspicion on her at the time to being his counterattack against Kristoph, so that's not really all that non-understandable.



In all likelihood your are spewing waffle and conjecture. You've got no evidence what she said was a lie, the game gave no indication that it is a lie so you can hardly say 'Kristoph was right on the verge of revealing her' because you can't be sure she is. If anything she would have revealed that when she revealed her true nature but she didn't so you can drop this point.

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Besides, whether or not her testimony gives more credibility to one side or the other isn't the point here.


OH CONTRAIRE

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...really? The words of someone who already lied about who actually hit who with a bottle, who was winning the card game, the cards that were in the deck, the plan to trap Phoenix, and what happened to her count as evidence in any way, shape, or form?


The point that started my argument was you directly bringing up her credibility. Implying that because she lied about a bunch of things perhaps she lied about everything. This is what I was talking about with you not accepting consequences, you just try and roll onto something else as if nothing was wrong.

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Sure there is. What if Phoenix called the police, and they began searching the area for him? That would cause quite a bit of concern.


There's no reason to say he couldn't have done that on the actual night when they played poker. Though he didn't call the police (at least not for the point of capturing Zak) so....what's your point? Phoenix has shown that he doesn't hold such a grudge as when Zak wants to improve the quality of life and future of Trucy so as to turn him in already. It's the same risk.

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Godot had the ability to sit in on a private conversation between Morgan Fey and Dahlia Hawthorne. Even if you're going to suggest that somehow, video footage would be off limits while real time conversations would not be, any prosecutor/police officer could have simply sat in and listened to their conversation during the game.


It would require some special attention for a prosecutor to sit in on a conversation....such as the attention Godot would give Dahlia Hawthorne. Godot's even shown he'd be willing to go above and beyond the law for revenge on Dahlia so there's no way to show he was doing something legal when he heard that information.

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Simply put, private statements not made while under oath only qualify as "hearsay," regardless of whether you have video footage or not. 2-2 is an excellent example of this: Von Karma had a picture taken of Phoenix and Mia discussing things in jail, but was not allowed to submit it as evidence.


That's an unusual but good point, if Von Karma couldn't submit something in taken in the detention center then you kind of defeat the original point that prosecutors could use any kind of recording taken there. Though did Von Karma have a picture or the camera footage?

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So there would just happen to be bribed waitresses who would vouch for her as well? How many people are you suggesting are in on this conspiracy again?


Sorry if you can't keep up. I'm suggesting one waitress or two to vouch for her. Forged credentials everywhere else.

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It would also make sense if the court actually made sure the attorneys were who they claimed to be before the case. Sadly, they don't. Very little makes sense in the AA world.

As for the camera, it really doesn't matter whether it was live or not, as I pointed out earlier.


Yes but as you pointed out earlier, stuff taken in there only counts as 'hearsay' and can't be presented in court. Though to follow your logic defies your entire premise that 'it's mighty coincidental for the hiring to be at the right time' it might seem strange and make little sense but in AA world coincidences happen, live with it.

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Again, what would there be to stop someone, like, say, Valant, from using those symbols, forging a letter, and getting the rights transferred to him? That argument's pretty weak, especially considering how well Valant and many others would have known Zak's outfit.


Could probably make an argument that the broaches are one of a kind, Trucy could probably validate authenticity. Also how would Valant get Phoenix to sign away the rights to him? Even if he forged the letter Phoenix would know Zak wasn't legally dead yet. Besides Zak is willing to go in person to transfer rights so this is all a moot point.

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Not sure I follow. Elaborate


Certainly you said:
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Zak would still have to be present, or else you would leave yourself open to the barrage of transferral fraud that would occur when letters with faked signatures were sent to lawyers and then signed.


Implying that a letter sent to Phoenix could have a faked signature, but if Zak signed it beforehand why would it be fake?

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Olga must have been hired, because the boss wouldn't be dumb enough to miss something like a fake waitress.
But the boss would be dumb enough to let someone he's barely even met deal cards for his prized poker player.
Additionally, the boss is also dumb enough to not suspect Phoenix of cheating.
The boss is also a bribable man and doesn't thoroughly check references.
The boss also happened to be hiring waitresses at just the right time as well.
Olga could then deal cards which were from the BBC, which then Zak would go along with. Phoenix could then describe these cards over the phone if need be(because somehow he would know exactly how to describe them to Trucy).
Olga would then be willing to lie about nearly everything else except the fact that she was legitimately hired at the BBC.

Going back to the earlier point about assumptions...it kinda seems like there's a whole lotta assumptions being made in this argument right here. A whole lot of assumptions...where if one of these assumptions is wrong, the entire argument falls apart.


Again, the game also tells us that Phoenix forged the ace with no objections, which is exactly what you're arguing against.


Whoops, assumption time. You are assuming he's met Olga in the first place.


There is a difference between proving your skill to someone, and going seven straight years undefeated. I'm not arguing that Phoenix couldn't beat the boss at a game of Poker. Going seven straight years undefeated against some top black market Poker players, without some help...is another thing entirely.


Hey, remember when you accused me of ignoring your arguments and moving along with assumptions? Yeah, apply that to the above.


Let me put this as simply as possible: Simply stating the volume number does NOT convey which kind of card it is. Also, whether or not the card she gave Apollo is convincing or not is a pointless argument to bring up as we haven't even established who forged the card yet.


Then take my "biased assumption" out of it. You really think she would lie about everything besides that?


There is a new point I should bring up here...and I can't believe I haven't mentioned it yet, but...

Believe it or not, cell phone calls are retrievable for the sake of an investigation. Assuming an officer has a warrant(which they would if Phoenix was arrested, which he was), they would be able to go back through his calls and find out what he said to Trucy.

I can't picture Phoenix being the kind to make that kind of a mistake.

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