Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Age issues:
Klavier Gavin: Became a prosecutor at the age of 17
Franziska von Karma: Became a prosecutor at the age of 13
The special ability: Kurain Channeling seriously...
The Mood Matrix: ....What, the Magatama and the Bracelet weren't weird enough? Pfft, okay.
About people liking her: I don't think Boxy Missy(Scuttlebutt) liked her much.
About the plot goes too much about her: That's true, it's basically the same in T&T, how most of the plot goes around the Feys.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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TheBlarghMan wrote:
And we're arguing this because this is the intermission of the Athena debate. :p
Wait, what? So, do I play the lobby theme instead?
BonnyMono wrote:
About the plot goes too much about her: That's true, it's basically the same in T&T, how most of the plot goes around the Feys.
Um, actually that isn't a good comparison. For one, Maya doesn't always have a major role in a case; Athena does (with exception of the DLC case). For another, the cases involving the history of the Fey clan are scattered across games, not exclusive to T&T. We only have one case that details out Athena's past. There's a huge difference of presentation, and that's the one thing that's really important and being argued here.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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BonnyMono wrote:
I've been doing a little thinking about the people complaining about Athena's character, yet they didn't complain about those things in the past games, such as:
Age issues:
Klavier Gavin: Became a prosecutor at the age of 17
Franziska von Karma: Became a prosecutor at the age of 13
Age issues:
Klavier Gavin: Became a prosecutor at the age of 17
Franziska von Karma: Became a prosecutor at the age of 13
Yes I do. But while that bothers me to no end, it doesn't make Athena's early debut any better.
Quote:
The special ability: Kurain Channeling seriously...
I singled that out as the worst power in the game, since it not only defies the laws of nature, but it's also used poorly. That, and it feels like a get out of jail free card.
Quote:
The Mood Matrix: ....What, the Magatama and the Bracelet weren't weird enough? Pfft, okay.
The Mood Matrix was in previous installments?
Quote:
About people liking her: I don't think Boxy Missy(Scuttlebutt) liked her much.
One school tabloid journalist who wrote crap about people in order to get their attention didn't like Athena? Hurray.
Quote:
About the plot goes too much about her: That's true, it's basically the same in T&T, how most of the plot goes around the Feys.
Like Silve said, it's not a very good comparison. I'll also add that Athena has a big role in every single case. A lot of that time could've gone to developing old characters like Apollo; I appreciate the effort they put into giving him a backstory, but it was by no means sufficient.
She had no connection to any previous Ace Attorney characters or plotlines, so I understand she needs a motive to work at the Wright Anything Agency. However, giving a character who suddenly appears out of the blue the biggest role in the entire game just doesn't sit well with me for reasons previously mentioned.
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Thane wrote:
The Mood Matrix was in previous installments?
I didn't mean it like that, I said in the small text that how people think the Mood Matrix odd compared to Psyche Locks or the Surging Eyes. (I am not complaining.)
My point being: nothing new has been made, Magic/Special Abilities/intriguing mechanics, all of them were in previous titles.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Bad Player wrote:
Meanwhile, we have absolutely no reason to think there was someone pressuring/teaching Athena about law her entire life, or that the relatives she lived with in Europe after HAT-1 was someone who could pull strings for her. We really have nothing to go on for "how" she became an attorney so young besides "she's just that amazing."
You have a problem with person becoming a lawyer at 18? You know, we had that in real life.
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Sligneris wrote:
Bad Player wrote:
Meanwhile, we have absolutely no reason to think there was someone pressuring/teaching Athena about law her entire life, or that the relatives she lived with in Europe after HAT-1 was someone who could pull strings for her. We really have nothing to go on for "how" she became an attorney so young besides "she's just that amazing."
You have a problem with person becoming a lawyer at 18? You know, we had that in real life.
I feel we've went over this. Firstly, show me this 18 year old Lawyer and a record of their education.
Secondly for those of you citing Franny and Klavier, they were born in Europe and therefore could start education earlier. Franny's father almost certainly greased the wheels for her and pushed her to do it herself. Klavier is just exceptional.
Athena...hadn't been doing especially well in school (not attending classes due to her...abilities), had no specific aptitude for the law at a young age, had no specific aptitude for psychology at a young age, shipped over to Europe not to study...but because her nearest Kin were there as her guardians. This is at the age of 11.
Age 18, she's walking out of University-level education with a degree in law and (potentially though this point has been nitpicked to hell) a degree in psychology.
It doesn't add up other than "she's the best new thing on the scene, do you love her? do you?"
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Pierre wrote:
I feel we've went over this. Firstly, show me this 18 year old Lawyer and a record of their education.
If you insist.
Must resist the urge to quote my doge-hater post.
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Sligneris wrote:
Pierre wrote:
I feel we've went over this. Firstly, show me this 18 year old Lawyer and a record of their education.
If you insist.
As much as that brought a smile to my face and it's very impressive and I'm happy for her (a real life AA-prodigy).
Stick a 4-year course on there for Athena in Psychology.
Set a Seven Year time limit for her entire education.
Give her little to no influence in the field of Law.
Athena does the 18-year old thing AND does better than this girl. If this girl is the pinnacle of Law achievements, then Athena is walking on clouds above her based on her credentials and time limit.
Seeing an actual 18-year old Attorney makes me think Athena looks sort of older now.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Sligneris wrote:
Hmm... She does better? I got the impression that in the game she had a big problem with lack of experience.
Well yeah....record speed or not she's still a rookie, everyone had that problem when they started.
I was more indicating while the girl probably fought tooth and nail to superhuman levels to be qualified for courts by the age of 18. Athena probably didn't have as much time as she did (having started after 11) AND walked into the courts with the additional classification of Analytical Psychology Specialist.
Real life examples or not, Athena is still beyond the boundaries of belief.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Pierre wrote:
Secondly for those of you citing Franny and Klavier, they were born in Europe and therefore could start education earlier. Franny's father almost certainly greased the wheels for her and pushed her to do it herself. Klavier is just exceptional.
In Franziska's case, however, she was merely 13 years old when she graduated. If we're going to debate realism, we should probably discuss the fact at some point that there's no way an 8th grader (or whatever weird grades Ace Attorney's Europe goes by) could understand what's on the bar exam.
Let's assume that Franziska started school at 5 years old or so, which I believe is the youngest possible age for a child to really grasp educational concepts taught to them. In that case, she would be, at the very most, even with Europe's screwed up school jumping system, a high school level of reading comprehension by the time she took the bar. There wouldn't even be a way she could read what was there, let alone answer it correctly.
So yeah, Ace Attorney characters are ridiculous. Haven't seen that before.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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BonnyMono wrote:
I've been doing a little thinking about the people complaining about Athena's character, yet they didn't complain about those things in the past games, such as:
Age issues:
Klavier Gavin: Became a prosecutor at the age of 17
Franziska von Karma: Became a prosecutor at the age of 13
The special ability: Kurain Channeling seriously...
The Mood Matrix: ....What, the Magatama and the Bracelet weren't weird enough? Pfft, okay.
Age issues:
Klavier Gavin: Became a prosecutor at the age of 17
Franziska von Karma: Became a prosecutor at the age of 13
The special ability: Kurain Channeling seriously...
The Mood Matrix: ....What, the Magatama and the Bracelet weren't weird enough? Pfft, okay.
Except... I've already addressed all of these, and why Athena is a problem and these aren't? (Someone hasn't been following this debate... Shame on you for not reading pages and pages of walls of text spread out over several threads!)
Klavier: Actually, I hate Klavier too. But this isn't the "Klavier's character" thread, now is it? :P But, if you want to get into it, while both became lawyers at around the same time with a secondary job, only Athena has swag, magic powers, and is a protagonist.
Franzy: I went over this on the previous page of the thread. Too lazy to copy+paste.
Spirit Channeling: Eh. Maya is completely normal (perhaps even a bit below-average) in everything, except for her spirit channeling. While we don't get an 'exact' mechanic of how it works, we still get background about it, rules about it, and info for how the power is passed down through the Fey family, all stuff we don't know about Athena's power.
Mood Matrix: I've already explained why I feel MM is much more problematic than magatama or perceive. To put it in short, I really don't get how MM gets little-to-no explanation of, well, anything about it in-game.
TheBlarghMan wrote:
In Franziska's case, however, she was merely 13 years old when she graduated. If we're going to debate realism, we should probably discuss the fact at some point that there's no way an 8th grader (or whatever weird grades Ace Attorney's Europe goes by) could understand what's on the bar exam.
Let's assume that Franziska started school at 5 years old or so, which I believe is the youngest possible age for a child to really grasp educational concepts taught to them. In that case, she would be, at the very most, even with Europe's screwed up school jumping system, a high school level of reading comprehension by the time she took the bar. There wouldn't even be a way she could read what was there, let alone answer it correctly.
So yeah, Ace Attorney characters are ridiculous. Haven't seen that before.
Let's assume that Franziska started school at 5 years old or so, which I believe is the youngest possible age for a child to really grasp educational concepts taught to them. In that case, she would be, at the very most, even with Europe's screwed up school jumping system, a high school level of reading comprehension by the time she took the bar. There wouldn't even be a way she could read what was there, let alone answer it correctly.
So yeah, Ace Attorney characters are ridiculous. Haven't seen that before.
Yes, it's ridiculous and unrealistic. But it's plausible in-universe because of what we know about Franzy's background, plus Franzy has clear and definite character flaws--she isn't/wasn't just some perfect 18/13 year-old super-genius.
Also, just because we happen to run into the genius lawyers all the time, I don't think that actually means it's common. If you think about the games taking place in Japan, they take place in Tokyo, which... is where a genius lawyer is gonna go practice, y'know? xP (I'm not sure it can really be justified in the localized version, but... meh.)
While ridiculous Ace Attorney characters are nothing new, characters that are more ridiculous than any we've seen so far while also being a protagonist certainly are.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Bad Player wrote:
BonnyMono wrote:
I've been doing a little thinking about the people complaining about Athena's character, yet they didn't complain about those things in the past games, such as:
Age issues:
Klavier Gavin: Became a prosecutor at the age of 17
Franziska von Karma: Became a prosecutor at the age of 13
The special ability: Kurain Channeling seriously...
The Mood Matrix: ....What, the Magatama and the Bracelet weren't weird enough? Pfft, okay.
Age issues:
Klavier Gavin: Became a prosecutor at the age of 17
Franziska von Karma: Became a prosecutor at the age of 13
The special ability: Kurain Channeling seriously...
The Mood Matrix: ....What, the Magatama and the Bracelet weren't weird enough? Pfft, okay.
Except... I've already addressed all of these, and why Athena is a problem and these aren't? (Someone hasn't been following this debate... Shame on you for not reading pages and pages of walls of text spread out over several threads!)
Klavier: Actually, I hate Klavier too. But this isn't the "Klavier's character" thread, now is it? :P But, if you want to get into it, while both became lawyers at around the same time with a secondary job, only Athena has swag, magic powers, and is a protagonist.
Franzy: I went over this on the previous page of the thread. Too lazy to copy+paste.
Spirit Channeling: Eh. Maya is completely normal (perhaps even a bit below-average) in everything, except for her spirit channeling. While we don't get an 'exact' mechanic of how it works, we still get background about it, rules about it, and info for how the power is passed down through the Fey family, all stuff we don't know about Athena's power.
Mood Matrix: I've already explained why I feel MM is much more problematic than magatama or perceive. To put it in short, I really don't get how MM gets little-to-no explanation of, well, anything about it in-game.
You discussed it before, eh? I must've missed it.
That aside, I only have one reason to hate Athena, that being that her Lawyering skills suck.
Seriously, she got owned by Payne.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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If we ignore the supposed part Phoenix Wright played in her motivation, how did she start studying? Did she just walk up to a nearby (presumably German) college and ask them nicely if she could attend classes?
A 13-year-old prosecutor is just unrealistic on every single level, but at least Franziska's father was Manfred von Karma. I mean, the guy must've had some serious influence; Athena just magically appeared in Europe without any parents (Her father wasn't mentioned, right? Correct me if I'm wrong) and started studying, probably skipping a lot of school years in the process.
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Bad Player wrote:
only Athena has swag, magic powers, and is a protagonist.
...XD When did this happen?
Quote:
While ridiculous Ace Attorney characters are nothing new, characters that are more ridiculous than any we've seen so far while also being a protagonist certainly are.
Is being the protagonist all that wrong, though? If this is another case of genius-in-name-only, it makes sense that she'd have to be different from all the other named geniuses somehow, to prevent yet another rerun. The simplest answer would be to let her take a different side. Before Athena was made the genius with superpowers, the dev team created a(n impressive-looking) punk-version of Simon with those same superpowers and a gift in psycho-manipulation. Looking at it this way, I'm glad they didn't make yet another character of that archetype.
I know, giving the protagonist team a member with so many assets is a bit much and kind of ruins the experience of the underdog-vs-genius match. But to be fair, I felt the same way by Apollo's game. He and Trucy have powers that are explained only through genetics. Klavier, in comparison, was bland as a canvas. I often forgot that he was only 17 in that flashback case. In this game, Athena simply fits into a similar category. And yet, she got so much more development overall than Apollo ever had. I'm pretty sure this is where most people complain about.
...On the other hand, I wish Athena had a slightly different personality, maybe one a bit more sarcastic than she is now. It'd definitely set her apart from the other assistant role characters thus far.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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BonnyMono wrote:
That aside, I only have one reason to hate Athena, that being that her Lawyering skills suck.
Seriously, she got owned by Payne.
Seriously, she got owned by Payne.
Which a perfect counter-point to these Mary Sue and "no-negative-traits" accusations.
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Sligneris wrote:
BonnyMono wrote:
That aside, I only have one reason to hate Athena, that being that her Lawyering skills suck.
Seriously, she got owned by Payne.
Seriously, she got owned by Payne.
Which a perfect counter-point to these Mary Sue and "no-negative-traits" accusations.
Who here accused her of being a Mary Sue or not having any negative traits?
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:
Bad Player wrote:
only Athena has swag, magic powers, and is a protagonist.
...XD When did this happen?
A day or so ago :P A friend used that term, and I thought it was a lot funnier and more concise.
Quote:
Is being the protagonist all that wrong, though?
Yes.
Quote:
If this is another case of genius-in-name-only, it makes sense that she'd have to be different from all the other named geniuses somehow, to prevent yet another rerun.
Orrrrr just don't make yet another genius character?
Quote:
The simplest answer would be to let her take a different side. Before Athena was made the genius with superpowers, the dev team created a(n impressive-looking) punk-version of Simon with those same superpowers and a gift in psycho-manipulation.
:o Link pls.
Quote:
I know, giving the protagonist team a member with so many assets is a bit much and kind of ruins the experience of the underdog-vs-genius match.
Yes exactly.
Quote:
But to be fair, I felt the same way by Apollo's game. He and Trucy have powers that are explained only through genetics. Klavier, in comparison, was bland as a canvas. I often forgot that he was only 17 in that flashback case.
Yeah, Klavier is pretty bad, both as a character and a rival. But, besides his bracelet, it's not like Polly seems to have that much going on for him (besides his CHORDS OF STEEL, of course)
Quote:
In this game, Athena simply fits into a similar category. And yet, she got so much more development overall than Apollo ever had. I'm pretty sure this is where most people complain about.
The root of that problem is that Athena is a bad character. After all, there's nothing wrong with giving a ton of development to a good character, now is there? :P
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Bad Player wrote:
Quote:
The simplest answer would be to let her take a different side. Before Athena was made the genius with superpowers, the dev team created a(n impressive-looking) punk-version of Simon with those same superpowers and a gift in psycho-manipulation.
:o Link pls.
Official blog and stuff.
Quote:
Quote:
But to be fair, I felt the same way by Apollo's game. He and Trucy have powers that are explained only through genetics. Klavier, in comparison, was bland as a canvas. I often forgot that he was only 17 in that flashback case.
Yeah, Klavier is pretty bad, both as a character and a rival. But, besides his bracelet, it's not like Polly seems to have that much going on for him (besides his CHORDS OF STEEL, of course)
True, which does make Apollo that much more tolerable.
Quote:
Quote:
In this game, Athena simply fits into a similar category. And yet, she got so much more development overall than Apollo ever had. I'm pretty sure this is where most people complain about.
The root of that problem is that Athena is a bad character. After all, there's nothing wrong with giving a ton of development to a good character, now is there? :P
...One of these days, we really will have Phoenix Wright clones at the agency, won't we?
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Based on this entire topic, it seems obvious as to what Athena's flaw is: she has a name that precedes her. She gets so much praise but she doesn't have the experience to back it up. She also locks up in fear when things in court don't go her way, which could be explored further in a sequel (ie. her fear causes her to lose a trial). Maybe some of you have interpreted her success backwards - she succeeds in court because she has Wright and Apollo helping her every step of the way, not because she's a prodigy that is equal to them at a younger age. Unlike Wright and Apollo who have won cases on their own (with non-lawyer partners), Athena has always had either Apollo or Wright to point things out.
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Kav wrote:
This topic is seriously depressing to go through as a fan of Athena. It just feels like a lot of nitpicking despite fair comparisons to other characters. Who cares if she's a protagonist if she's still inexperienced in court? It's not like her "genius" gives us hints in the game that make trials any easier.
Based on this entire topic, it seems obvious as to what Athena's flaw is: she has a name that precedes her. She gets so much praise but she doesn't have the experience to back it up. She also locks up in fear when things in court don't go her way, which could be explored further in a sequel (ie. her fear causes her to lose a trial). Maybe some of you have interpreted her success backwards - she succeeds in court because she has Wright and Apollo helping her every step of the way, not because she's a prodigy that is equal to them at a younger age. Unlike Wright and Apollo who have won cases on their own (with non-lawyer partners), Athena has always had either Apollo or Wright to point things out.
Based on this entire topic, it seems obvious as to what Athena's flaw is: she has a name that precedes her. She gets so much praise but she doesn't have the experience to back it up. She also locks up in fear when things in court don't go her way, which could be explored further in a sequel (ie. her fear causes her to lose a trial). Maybe some of you have interpreted her success backwards - she succeeds in court because she has Wright and Apollo helping her every step of the way, not because she's a prodigy that is equal to them at a younger age. Unlike Wright and Apollo who have won cases on their own (with non-lawyer partners), Athena has always had either Apollo or Wright to point things out.
It makes things less interesting from the very basic story point of view ("underdog vs genius"... except now we're the genius), and the discrepancy between Athena's profile and then how she actually acts is yet another problem for her character, not something that justifies/validates it.
But this is the "Athena debate thread." If it makes you sad, just stay out of it and/or make an "Athena fanthread" :P
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Quote:
While ridiculous Ace Attorney characters are nothing new, characters that are more ridiculous than any we've seen so far while also being a protagonist certainly are.
I question your definition of "more ridiculous than any we've seen so far."
Athena is nowhere NEAR the most ridiculous Ace Attorney character.
Quote:
Based on this entire topic, it seems obvious as to what Athena's flaw is: she has a name that precedes her. She gets so much praise but she doesn't have the experience to back it up. She also locks up in fear when things in court don't go her way, which could be explored further in a sequel (ie. her fear causes her to lose a trial). Maybe some of you have interpreted her success backwards - she succeeds in court because she has Wright and Apollo helping her every step of the way, not because she's a prodigy that is equal to them at a younger age. Unlike Wright and Apollo who have won cases on their own (with non-lawyer partners), Athena has always had either Apollo or Wright to point things out.
Shh. Don't you know that if you're called a genius, you automatically are, and it makes everything a million times more interesting than it was before?
That was why Yumihiko was by far the most threatening adversary in GK2. Cuz genius n' stuff.
In all seriousness, I feel pretty much the same way as you do. If Athena was truly some sort of genius that could solve absolutely anything, then yeah, it would have made the game quite boring, but as it is, she isn't, and the mere fact that the game sets her up as a lawyer at an early age doesn't really make or break anything. Some people feel differently though for reasons that escape me, and at the end of the day, it's just opinion.
I disagree that the game setting her up at an early age and having her not act like a total professional qualifies as a flaw, though. School success oftentimes doesn't translate to workplace success, and the mere fact that she struggles while first appearing in a real trial is by no means a contradiction from personality to game set up. She could very easily be a supposed genius in school, and not perform at a prodigy level in the courtroom.
This is essentially the reason why I feel that setting someone up as a supposed genius in school doesn't automatically make them a huge threat. Being a whiz at school doesn't directly correlate to being a whiz at whatever job you end up doing.
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She gets so much praise but she doesn't have the experience to back it up.
I still want some example of this. I've been asking for some sort of example of her getting showered with praise for this, and no one has ever been able to provide one. Everyone just claims that Phoenix and Apollo are idolizing her without any sort of example of them actually doing this.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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In terms of early school, skipping class because of her condition; two things to remember. One is that grade-school performance isn't always such a perfect indicator of later abilities. A lot of professionals look back on the sort of things kids learn in K-12 and go "....Really? Nursery rhymes to remember what each bone is called? When will that help you?" And grade schools are often under-funded in terms of helping students with various ailments or learning disabilities; universities (especially non-American universities) tend to specialize a lot more. Secondly, her mother was an accomplished scientist. She *lived* around robots and science, not around Nintendo and iPads (the "nannies" of many modern kids). She didn't necessarily have to go to school to learn quite a lot. Heck, if Blackquill was willing to protect her, I wouldn't be so surprised if they had more than a few conversations about law (in a kind of kid-friendly way)
See in a few paragraphs, I can lend *some* plausibility to it. Even then though, it was never the focus of the story - it doesn't *need* a whole lot of plausibility. The Bruce Wayne style of "If I focus every attention on it and do whatever it takes to make it happen, I can be whatever I want" is a very positive thought. I don't want any work of fiction to go "Well realistically, you'd still need 400 hours of training spread out over 10 years, and would have to grow being an enormous jerk to everyone......"
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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TheBlarghMan wrote:
Quote:
While ridiculous Ace Attorney characters are nothing new, characters that are more ridiculous than any we've seen so far while also being a protagonist certainly are.
I question your definition of "more ridiculous than any we've seen so far."
Athena is nowhere NEAR the most ridiculous Ace Attorney character.
I know it's an opinion, but in terms of positive traits, "athletic pretty well-liked eighteen year-old psychologist attorney with swag and superpowers" takes the cake for me :P
...Oh, one more "trait" I've been leaving out recently, because it was spoiler-ific: there's someone willing to die for her, without any extremely compelling reason!
Also, something else I realized the other day: just like 5-5 is the plot of 1-5 with some names swapped around, Athena's reason for becoming a lawyer is the "same" as Nick's, and what we know about Athena and Widget is the "same" as Polly and his bracelet. Which just makes her seem even more boring and unoriginal to me.
(I didn't write these two out, but I will if you request me to do so :P)
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Some people feel differently though for reasons that escape me, and at the end of the day, it's just opinion.
Putting aside the fact that this is a story and we're the protagonist, so of course things will work out well for us...
In AA, I was going "We're a rookie attorney vs a legendary demon prosecutor?! Will we be able to win?!"
In AJ I was going "We're a rookie attorney vs a genius rockstar prosecutor?! Will we be able to win?!" (or at least, that's what I was thinking until Klavier showed his true colors
)In GS5, I was going "We're an athletic pretty well-liked eighteen year-old psychologist attorney with swag and superpowers vs some random guy. We're gonna be fiiiiiiiiine." (Even if she's a rookie and a bit shaky in court at first, we're still an athletic pretty well-liked eighteen year-old psychologist attorney with swag and superpowers, so no probs.)
I hope that clarifies things a bit :P
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I disagree that the game setting her up at an early age and having her not act like a total professional qualifies as a flaw, though.
Well, this one is more a complaint at the game/writing than Athena herself.
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She gets so much praise but she doesn't have the experience to back it up.
I still want some example of this. I've been asking for some sort of example of her getting showered with praise for this, and no one has ever been able to provide one. Everyone just claims that Phoenix and Apollo are idolizing her without any sort of example of them actually doing this.
I haven't! D:
Katana wrote:
I still don't get how Athena is viewed as being a genius. She's only just passed the bar exam
at eighteen years old
Quote:
In terms of early school, skipping class because of her condition; two things to remember. One is that grade-school performance isn't always such a perfect indicator of later abilities. A lot of professionals look back on the sort of things kids learn in K-12 and go "....Really? Nursery rhymes to remember what each bone is called? When will that help you?" And grade schools are often under-funded in terms of helping students with various ailments or learning disabilities; universities (especially non-American universities) tend to specialize a lot more. Secondly, her mother was an accomplished scientist. She *lived* around robots and science, not around Nintendo and iPads (the "nannies" of many modern kids). She didn't necessarily have to go to school to learn quite a lot. Heck, if Blackquill was willing to protect her, I wouldn't be so surprised if they had more than a few conversations about law (in a kind of kid-friendly way)
You give the flaw to your own argument :P What do you learn when you're a little kid? As you put it, "nursery rhymes to remember what each bone is called." You don't learn and absorb important information that will become relevant in your life when you're really young, such as law and psychology.
...Well, unless you're a genius.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Quote:
Putting aside the fact that this is a story and we're the protagonist, so of course things will work out well for us...
In AA, I was going "We're a rookie attorney vs a legendary demon prosecutor?! Will we be able to win?!"
In AJ I was going "We're a rookie attorney vs a genius rockstar prosecutor?! Will we be able to win?!" (or at least, that's what I was thinking until Klavier showed his true colors )
In GS5, I was going "We're an athletic pretty well-liked eighteen year-old psychologist attorney with swag and superpowers vs some random guy. We're gonna be fiiiiiiiiine." (Even if she's a rookie and a bit shaky in court at first, we're still an athletic pretty well-liked eighteen year-old psychologist attorney with swag and superpowers, so no probs.)
I hope that clarifies things a bit :P
In AA, I was going "We're a rookie attorney vs a legendary demon prosecutor?! Will we be able to win?!"
In AJ I was going "We're a rookie attorney vs a genius rockstar prosecutor?! Will we be able to win?!" (or at least, that's what I was thinking until Klavier showed his true colors )
In GS5, I was going "We're an athletic pretty well-liked eighteen year-old psychologist attorney with swag and superpowers vs some random guy. We're gonna be fiiiiiiiiine." (Even if she's a rookie and a bit shaky in court at first, we're still an athletic pretty well-liked eighteen year-old psychologist attorney with swag and superpowers, so no probs.)
I hope that clarifies things a bit :P
Let me clarify my position. I understand the reasoning behind it, but I honestly disagree that it makes anything seem like it will be more "fine," per se. I think the best example of this is Yumihiko from GK2. The game builds him up as a genius, but the actual confrontation is anything but "Oh no, I'm screwed because this is clearly a brilliant logician."
The simple fact that the game dresses a person up as someone who was proficient at school doesn't make them more or less threatening as an opponent.
That and the other point I brought up about geniuses not translating from the classroom to the courtroom.
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Last edited by TheBlarghMan on Sat Nov 09, 2013 6:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Bad Player wrote:
In AA, I was going "We're a rookie attorney vs a legendary demon prosecutor?! Will we be able to win?!"
In AJ I was going "We're a rookie attorney vs a genius rockstar prosecutor?! Will we be able to win?!" (or at least, that's what I was thinking until Klavier showed his true colors )
In GS5, I was going "We're an athletic pretty well-liked eighteen year-old psychologist attorney with swag and superpowers vs some random guy. We're gonna be fiiiiiiiiine." (Even if she's a rookie and a bit shaky in court at first, we're still an athletic pretty well-liked eighteen year-old psychologist attorney with swag and superpowers, so no probs.)
In AJ I was going "We're a rookie attorney vs a genius rockstar prosecutor?! Will we be able to win?!" (or at least, that's what I was thinking until Klavier showed his true colors
)In GS5, I was going "We're an athletic pretty well-liked eighteen year-old psychologist attorney with swag and superpowers vs some random guy. We're gonna be fiiiiiiiiine." (Even if she's a rookie and a bit shaky in court at first, we're still an athletic pretty well-liked eighteen year-old psychologist attorney with swag and superpowers, so no probs.)
I think you ought to keep in mind that the "some random guy" has mastered psychological manipulation, can summon blades with the toss of his fingers, and shuts up almost anyone who questions him. Even if he's not branded a genius, he's branded a worthy and intimidating adversary, and that is some level of ridiculous stuffed into him. Relatively, Athena doesn't seem to stick out as much of a sore thumb as otherwise.
Of course, by the 3rd game, it was pretty obvious that the rookie attorney was going to win all his cases. Any other game after that will not change that GS3 has already set the status quo for the protagonists' victory in all cases. Until GS6 or whatnot comes in with a case that forces the player's side to take a loss for the sake of truth, it has yet to come again.
Besides, wasn't the common view of Athena based on the earliest pictures back in fall last year pretty much "What? ANOTHER perky assistant? Can't they come up with something new?" Later, Athena proved to be much more than just an assistant; even took over the plot. To that, we could blame misleading advertisements and the warping of facts in the first place. Now that her story is pretty much covered, we can move on to Apollo's... if he ever is going to get a game that features his story as the main plot.
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1/3/19 edit: The project has officially been moved to a new blog at https://gsvsaa.blogspot.com/ Further updates will be pending.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:
Bad Player wrote:
In AA, I was going "We're a rookie attorney vs a legendary demon prosecutor?! Will we be able to win?!"
In AJ I was going "We're a rookie attorney vs a genius rockstar prosecutor?! Will we be able to win?!" (or at least, that's what I was thinking until Klavier showed his true colors )
In GS5, I was going "We're an athletic pretty well-liked eighteen year-old psychologist attorney with swag and superpowers vs some random guy. We're gonna be fiiiiiiiiine." (Even if she's a rookie and a bit shaky in court at first, we're still an athletic pretty well-liked eighteen year-old psychologist attorney with swag and superpowers, so no probs.)
In AJ I was going "We're a rookie attorney vs a genius rockstar prosecutor?! Will we be able to win?!" (or at least, that's what I was thinking until Klavier showed his true colors
)In GS5, I was going "We're an athletic pretty well-liked eighteen year-old psychologist attorney with swag and superpowers vs some random guy. We're gonna be fiiiiiiiiine." (Even if she's a rookie and a bit shaky in court at first, we're still an athletic pretty well-liked eighteen year-old psychologist attorney with swag and superpowers, so no probs.)
I think you ought to keep in mind that the "some random guy" has mastered psychological manipulation, can summon blades with the toss of his fingers, and shuts up almost anyone who questions him. Even if he's not branded a genius, he's branded a worthy and intimidating adversary, and that is some level of ridiculous stuffed into him. Relatively, Athena doesn't seem to stick out as much of a sore thumb as otherwise.
Of course, by the 3rd game, it was pretty obvious that the rookie attorney was going to win all his cases. Any other game after that will not change that GS3 has already set the status quo for the protagonists' victory in all cases. Until GS6 or whatnot comes in with a case that forces the player's side to take a loss for the sake of truth, it has yet to come again.
Besides, wasn't the common view of Athena based on the earliest pictures back in fall last year pretty much "What? ANOTHER perky assistant? Can't they come up with something new?" Later, Athena proved to be much more than just an assistant; even took over the plot. To that, we could blame misleading advertisements and the warping of facts in the first place. Now that her story is pretty much covered, we can move on to Apollo's... if he ever is going to get a game that features his story as the main plot.
In all honesty, if there needs to be a game about Apollo's story, I hope it's about some event or series of events that defines him in the present, as opposed to going through some complicated backstory for him.
Not that any of the attorney's motives for becoming lawyers have been bad, but we're getting a little close to repetitiveness. Phoenix became a lawyer to save his friend. Athena became a lawyer to save Simon. Edgeworth became a prosecutor to punish himself for killing his father (at least, partially). I think, for once, it'd be nice to have someone who didn't have some complicated motive for becoming a lawyer, and just became one simply because the field of law interested him. Honestly, I think I prefer the idea of Apollo becoming a lawyer simply because he idolized Phoenix growing up and just became interested in it.
(incredibly off topic, but whatever)
On topic, here are a couple more screens to add to the argument that Phoenix and Apollo aren't worshipping Athena like some people who are most definitely not BP are suggesting.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Bad Player wrote:
In AA, I was going "We're a rookie attorney vs a legendary demon prosecutor?! Will we be able to win?!"
In AJ I was going "We're a rookie attorney vs a genius rockstar prosecutor?! Will we be able to win?!" (or at least, that's what I was thinking until Klavier showed his true colors )
In GS5, I was going "We're an athletic pretty well-liked eighteen year-old psychologist attorney with swag and superpowers vs some random guy. We're gonna be fiiiiiiiiine." (Even if she's a rookie and a bit shaky in court at first, we're still an athletic pretty well-liked eighteen year-old psychologist attorney with swag and superpowers, so no probs.)
In AJ I was going "We're a rookie attorney vs a genius rockstar prosecutor?! Will we be able to win?!" (or at least, that's what I was thinking until Klavier showed his true colors
)In GS5, I was going "We're an athletic pretty well-liked eighteen year-old psychologist attorney with swag and superpowers vs some random guy. We're gonna be fiiiiiiiiine." (Even if she's a rookie and a bit shaky in court at first, we're still an athletic pretty well-liked eighteen year-old psychologist attorney with swag and superpowers, so no probs.)
Is it really that bad that in GS5 we don't play as the underdogs? Considering Phoenix Wright's been through a dozen years or so of legal hell, and Apollo's had a pretty rough ride too, it stands to reason that they would have learnt a lot through their experiences. If Athena learns from those two herself, then fair enough, IMO. I thought it was refreshing that for once we were able to solve cases without ~psychic intervention~, and instead with experience, legal prowess and psychology (along with some handy gadgets that aren't all that farfetched, considering the year this game is set - 2030 or something?).
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Who's to say its as hard in the games as in real life anyway? We already know most other elements of the legal system are screwed up.
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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xGiovanni wrote:
Didn't that guy in Catch Me If You Can pass the bar exam after two weeks of study?
Who's to say its as hard in the games as in real life anyway? We already know most other elements of the legal system are screwed up.
Who's to say its as hard in the games as in real life anyway? We already know most other elements of the legal system are screwed up.
That... Is something I don't believe has been mentioned yet, and I've been following this argument (on Athena's side) [following does not mean I commented, I simply watched the two sides fight it out] for quite a while now.
The legal system in the Ace Attorney universe is indeed screwed up, perhaps it doesn't take as long as in our universe to pass the bar exam or even getting degrees in stuff, Phsycology or not.
Fransica passing the bar at the age of thirteen is evidence of this, even if Manfred pulled some strings, I really would like to know how they'd let someone pass the bar exam at the age of thirteen. And as many have already debated, it's impossible for someone to really pass the bar exam at the age of 18 and have a degree in Pshycology.
So, realism is out of the picture, but that should be of no suprise to anyone.
However, as a counterargument to my own point, we have Edgeworth and Klavier. If everything I said thus far was correct (which I know it isn't, my argument will probably be shredded to bits by other smarter people), the we can arrive at the conclusion that everyone in the Ace Attorney Universe blows everything out of propotion, because when Edgeworth and Klavier became laywers at a young age, everyone called them geniouses and things of the sort, this means, it really isn't as easy as I made it out to be at first.
What hasn't been discredited, is the degree in Pshycology, for all we know, that could still be quite easy to get.
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Tiagofvarela wrote:
xGiovanni wrote:
Didn't that guy in Catch Me If You Can pass the bar exam after two weeks of study?
Who's to say its as hard in the games as in real life anyway? We already know most other elements of the legal system are screwed up.
Who's to say its as hard in the games as in real life anyway? We already know most other elements of the legal system are screwed up.
That... Is something I don't believe has been mentioned yet, and I've been following this argument (on Athena's side) [following does not mean I commented, I simply watched the two sides fight it out] for quite a while now.
The legal system in the Ace Attorney universe is indeed screwed up, perhaps it doesn't take as long as in our universe to pass the bar exam or even getting degrees in stuff, Phsycology or not.
Fransica passing the bar at the age of thirteen is evidence of this, even if Manfred pulled some strings, I really would like to know how they'd let someone pass the bar exam at the age of thirteen. And as many have already debated, it's impossible for someone to really pass the bar exam at the age of 18 and have a degree in Pshycology.
So, realism is out of the picture, but that should be of no suprise to anyone.
However, as a counterargument to my own point, we have Edgeworth and Klavier. If everything I said thus far was correct (which I know it isn't, my argument will probably be shredded to bits by other smarter people), the we can arrive at the conclusion that everyone in the Ace Attorney Universe blows everything out of propotion, because when Edgeworth and Klavier became laywers at a young age, everyone called them geniouses and things of the sort, this means, it really isn't as easy as I made it out to be at first.
What hasn't been discredited, is the degree in Pshycology, for all we know, that could still be quite easy to get.
And that could very well just be a minor degree or a part time thing she pursued while obtaining her law degree.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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TheBlarghMan wrote:
Let me clarify my position. I understand the reasoning behind it, but I honestly disagree that it makes anything seem like it will be more "fine," per se. I think the best example of this is Yumihiko from GK2. The game builds him up as a genius, but the actual confrontation is anything but "Oh no, I'm screwed because this is clearly a brilliant logician."
Yumihiko really doesn't work for this argument, since...
Spoiler: GK2
Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:
I think you ought to keep in mind that the "some random guy" has mastered psychological manipulation, can summon blades with the toss of his fingers, and shuts up almost anyone who questions him. Even if he's not branded a genius, he's branded a worthy and intimidating adversary, and that is some level of ridiculous stuffed into him. Relatively, Athena doesn't seem to stick out as much of a sore thumb as otherwise.
Of course, by the 3rd game, it was pretty obvious that the rookie attorney was going to win all his cases.
Of course, by the 3rd game, it was pretty obvious that the rookie attorney was going to win all his cases.
I'll be the first to admit that Blackquill is a really good rival/prosecutor. But he still doesn't have any special credentials, so when you look at the story from the most basic point of view.... (But the "psychological manipulation" and "shuts up almost anyone who questions him" doesn't make him play out really different from any other prosecutor, imo. And "can summon blades with the toss of his fingers" is just AA style, I think, like Adrian's infinite glasses, or Dahlia's butterflies and wind.)
(That wasn't obvious in the first game?)
I said "putting aside the fact that the protagonists will obviously win"!!
TheBlarghMan wrote:
On topic, here are a couple more screens to add to the argument that Phoenix and Apollo aren't worshipping Athena like some people who are most definitely not BP are suggesting.
Credit to Evolina for the sig+avatar!
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Bad Player wrote:
TheBlarghMan wrote:
Let me clarify my position. I understand the reasoning behind it, but I honestly disagree that it makes anything seem like it will be more "fine," per se. I think the best example of this is Yumihiko from GK2. The game builds him up as a genius, but the actual confrontation is anything but "Oh no, I'm screwed because this is clearly a brilliant logician."
Yumihiko really doesn't work for this argument, since...
Spoiler: GK2
Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:
I think you ought to keep in mind that the "some random guy" has mastered psychological manipulation, can summon blades with the toss of his fingers, and shuts up almost anyone who questions him. Even if he's not branded a genius, he's branded a worthy and intimidating adversary, and that is some level of ridiculous stuffed into him. Relatively, Athena doesn't seem to stick out as much of a sore thumb as otherwise.
Of course, by the 3rd game, it was pretty obvious that the rookie attorney was going to win all his cases.
Of course, by the 3rd game, it was pretty obvious that the rookie attorney was going to win all his cases.
I'll be the first to admit that Blackquill is a really good rival/prosecutor. But he still doesn't have any special credentials, so when you look at the story from the most basic point of view.... (But the "psychological manipulation" and "shuts up almost anyone who questions him" doesn't make him play out really different from any other prosecutor, imo. And "can summon blades with the toss of his fingers" is just AA style, I think, like Adrian's infinite glasses, or Dahlia's butterflies and wind.)
(That wasn't obvious in the first game?)
I said "putting aside the fact that the protagonists will obviously win"!!
TheBlarghMan wrote:
On topic, here are a couple more screens to add to the argument that Phoenix and Apollo aren't worshipping Athena like some people who are most definitely not BP are suggesting.
Right, I was using Yumihiko as an extreme example of someone built up as a genius who most certainly wasn't. What I'm trying to point out, though, is that we don't actually find out that
Spoiler:
at which point there have been confrontations with him many of times. My point here is that we don't know about his secret until then, so we still hear about how he's a supposed genius beforehand. Does his supposed "geniusness" make his confrontations seem much more threatening before we find that out? No, he acts like an idiot, and would seem like one regardless of whether he was a supposed genius or not. The game dressing someone up as a genius doesn't automatically make something more or less terrifying.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Besides, GK games aren't really that exciting from the super-basic story structure, anyway. Being an investigation game, it's focused more on the straight-up mystery itself, imo.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Bad Player wrote:
Well, there's also the way the game handles the characters. It sets up Franzy and Klavier to be intimidating and strong, and while Athena is still a rookie, they make it clear that she's still bright and helpful. Even if Yumihiko is a "genius," they make it extremely clear from the get-go that he's a harmless idiot, and the one you really need to watch out for is Mikagami.
Which is coming around to my main point. DD makes it extremely clear as well that, while Athena may have graduated early, she's still very much a rookie and lacks the "punch" that Apollo and Phoenix have. I realize the Yumihiko example is an extreme one, but I think it illustrates my point well in that while calling someone a genius may build a slight amount of tension before a trial (or, at least, it could in the past; I'm pretty sure everyone who's played at least a couple AA games has heard this song and dance enough times for it to not be frightening), the real meat of what sets a character apart as "threatening" is the way they act in court. And when Blackquill nearly runs Athena out of the courtroom, everyone knows that her simply being good at school is by no means going to make the trial any easier.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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TheBlarghMan wrote:
Bad Player wrote:
Well, there's also the way the game handles the characters. It sets up Franzy and Klavier to be intimidating and strong, and while Athena is still a rookie, they make it clear that she's still bright and helpful. Even if Yumihiko is a "genius," they make it extremely clear from the get-go that he's a harmless idiot, and the one you really need to watch out for is Mikagami.
Which is coming around to my main point. DD makes it extremely clear as well that, while Athena may have graduated early, she's still very much a rookie and lacks the "punch" that Apollo and Phoenix have. I realize the Yumihiko example is an extreme one, but I think it illustrates my point well in that while calling someone a genius may build a slight amount of tension before a trial (or, at least, it could in the past; I'm pretty sure everyone who's played at least a couple AA games has heard this song and dance enough times for it to not be frightening), the real meat of what sets a character apart as "threatening" is the way they act in court. And when Blackquill nearly runs Athena out of the courtroom, everyone knows that her simply being good at school is by no means going to make the trial any easier.
Eeeeeh. Nowhere in "pretty athletic well-liked eighteen year-old psychologist attorney with swag and superpowers" did I put "skilled." :P
But here's the difference between Nick as a rookie and Athena as a rookie:
Nick is completely, 100% normal. No special accomplishments. No early age. No magic power. No special item. When he faces down Edgeworth the first time, he has no help.
Athena is extraordinary. She's graduated law school six years early. She has a working knowledge of psychology. She is assisted by an Ace Attorney, and has legendary attorney Phoenix Wright in the wings. She has a magic emotion superpower she can perfectly use.
Yes, both are rookies, and both start off really shaky. But we can see that Athena has the tools to succeed: her intellect, her aides, and her superpower. Nick had none of those. And so, even when both Nick and Athena are unskilled greenhorns, Athena's battle is still not nearly as exciting, and her victory seems all the more assured from the get-go.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Bad Player wrote:
But here's the difference between Nick as a rookie and Athena as a rookie:
Nick is completely, 100% normal. No special accomplishments. No early age. No magic power. No special item. When he faces down Edgeworth the first time, he has no help.
Athena is extraordinary. She's graduated law school six years early. She has a working knowledge of psychology. She is assisted by an Ace Attorney, and has legendary attorney Phoenix Wright in the wings. She has a magic emotion superpower she can perfectly use.
Yes, both are rookies, and both start off really shaky. But we can see that Athena has the tools to succeed: her intellect, her aides, and her superpower. Nick had none of those. And so, even when both Nick and Athena are unskilled greenhorns, Athena's battle is still not nearly as exciting, and her victory seems all the more assured from the get-go.
Nick is completely, 100% normal. No special accomplishments. No early age. No magic power. No special item. When he faces down Edgeworth the first time, he has no help.
Athena is extraordinary. She's graduated law school six years early. She has a working knowledge of psychology. She is assisted by an Ace Attorney, and has legendary attorney Phoenix Wright in the wings. She has a magic emotion superpower she can perfectly use.
Yes, both are rookies, and both start off really shaky. But we can see that Athena has the tools to succeed: her intellect, her aides, and her superpower. Nick had none of those. And so, even when both Nick and Athena are unskilled greenhorns, Athena's battle is still not nearly as exciting, and her victory seems all the more assured from the get-go.
I would argue that Phoenix as a rookie actually seems more intelligent than Athena does, despite her supposed genius status. To an extent, one might actually call the fact that Athena graduated so early a disadvantage for her; the game specifically states she had to skip grades, and there's also the fact that she had to rush over to America and presumably didn't have as long to learn under Phoenix as Phoenix did under Mia.
That said, the rest of your complaints aren't really directed at Athena's character; they're more directed at the set up of the game. And yeah, to an extent, I agree. Having two experienced attorneys to support you certainly does make things easier. But I don't think it detracts from the tension nearly as much as you say. While things don't look as hopeless from the start, there's always going to be the large amount of damning evidence towards your client to put you in a big enough hole to begin with. Honestly, I enjoy the shift in perspective from the defense being utterly helpless to actually being made out to have a fighting chance; it's kind of bringing to fruition all of Phoenix's and Apollo's endeavors from the last 4 games.
But, again, that's opinion.
"I can't go to hell, little weirdo. I'm all out of vacation days."
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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(Or are you still talking about it from the general story perspective, without the specifics of the crimes?)
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
Doesn't scream into DS microphones.
Gender: Male
Rank: Decisive Witness
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2012 12:23 am
Posts: 281
Bad Player wrote:
Eeeeh...? You don't think being locked in the room with the victim, or being the only person that has the knowledge necessary to commit the crime hopeless? xP
(Or are you still talking about it from the general story perspective, without the specifics of the crimes?)
(Or are you still talking about it from the general story perspective, without the specifics of the crimes?)
I'm assuming you're talking about this:
Quote:
While things don't look as hopeless from the start,
At which point I was talking about the general story, yeah.
"I can't go to hell, little weirdo. I'm all out of vacation days."
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