Athena's character (SPOILERS) : Themis Legal Academy (GS5)

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:30 am

Rubia Ryu the Royal

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Bad Player wrote:

I'll be the first to admit that Blackquill is a really good rival/prosecutor. But he still doesn't have any special credentials, so when you look at the story from the most basic point of view.... (But the "psychological manipulation" and "shuts up almost anyone who questions him" doesn't make him play out really different from any other prosecutor, imo. And "can summon blades with the toss of his fingers" is just AA style, I think, like Adrian's infinite glasses, or Dahlia's butterflies and wind.)

(That wasn't obvious in the first game?)
I said "putting aside the fact that the protagonists will obviously win"!!

...*whistles innocently* (The first game is where everything begins and the second game broke tradition so they don't count here.)

Likewise, the amount of swag that Athena has can just as easily be labeled "AA style". That includes everything she's accomplished at her age, but doesn't have anything to do with how she's been integrated into the story. That is, anything beside her tools and assistance in court is irrelevant. Also, while every prosecutor has his or her means of "convincing" the judge and maybe the gallery, Blackquill can also convince the defense to his side. (Admittedly, Edgeworth accomplished that too during his return in JFA, but it was a special situation.)

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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Sun Nov 10, 2013 4:24 am

Bad Player

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When I said "AA style," I meant visual things that are done for lulz that have absolutely no real impact on anything. I don't think you can claim that about Widget :P

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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Sun Nov 10, 2013 9:14 am

Rubia Ryu the Royal

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I did say "anything beside her tools and assistance in court is irrelevant". I did exclude Widget from irrelevance. :P

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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:11 am

Going for Miles

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Briefly: I like her more from her PoV than as a supporting character. I was positively surprised by her, but she's not a favourite of mine.

(......Ack! I've run out of snide comments!)

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:52 am

berserkerbladerx

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I don't know if anyone addressed this yet, and I don't feel like going through 450 giant wall of text posts to verify if it has been or not, but here's the REAL problem with Athena: She's a colossal hypocrite.

Spoiler: Case 3

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:30 pm

linkenski

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Yeah, I cringed when she threw that officer because it was just too over-the-top and as if the game was trying to impress me with Athena's awesomeness... but then again, almost every cutscene made me cringe. I hope PLvPWAA is not as cheesy in the anime cutscenes -_-

This is the Dark Age of the Ace Attorney

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:35 pm

Thane

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linkenski wrote:

Yeah, I cringed when she threw that officer because it was just too over-the-top and as if the game was trying to impress me with Athena's awesomeness... but then again, almost every cutscene made me cringe. I hope PLvPWAA is not as cheesy in the anime cutscenes -_-

Cheesy voice acting is one thing, Athena literally throwing an officer of the law several meters and not getting any crap for it is another.

Oh well, it's still not as bad as Hugh's scream.

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:39 pm

Rubia Ryu the Royal

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What, now people are complaining that Athena can fight? I thought that was one of the better quirks about her. Besides, that scene wasn't about Athena being awesome; it was about Apollo being a target.

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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:46 pm

Thane

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Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:

What, now people are complaining that Athena can fight? I thought that was one of the better quirks about her. Besides, that scene wasn't about Athena being awesome; it was about Apollo being a target.

Heh, the only way Apollo could be any more of a target than he already is is if he were painted in blue-white circles with a red center.

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Wed Nov 13, 2013 12:33 am

defenses

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Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:

What, now people are complaining that Athena can fight? I thought that was one of the better quirks about her. Besides, that scene wasn't about Athena being awesome; it was about Apollo being a target.

I don't think the issue is her ability to fight. The issue is that she physically assaulted a police officer as a joke.

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Wed Nov 13, 2013 12:35 am

Franzise Deauxnim

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berserkerbladerx wrote:

I don't know if anyone addressed this yet, and I don't feel like going through 450 giant wall of text posts to verify if it has been or not, but here's the REAL problem with Athena: She's a colossal hypocrite.

Spoiler: Case 3

Spoiler: 3

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:02 am

Pierre

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Franzise Deauxnim wrote:

berserkerbladerx wrote:

I don't know if anyone addressed this yet, and I don't feel like going through 450 giant wall of text posts to verify if it has been or not, but here's the REAL problem with Athena: She's a colossal hypocrite.

Spoiler: Case 3

Spoiler: 3

Spoiler: As above with some minor from Case 5

Made by Chesu+Zombee

You thought you could be safe in your courts, with your laws and attorneys to protect you. In this world only I am law, my word is fact, my power is absolute.

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:21 am

Rubia Ryu the Royal

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Thane wrote:

Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:

What, now people are complaining that Athena can fight? I thought that was one of the better quirks about her. Besides, that scene wasn't about Athena being awesome; it was about Apollo being a target.

Heh, the only way Apollo could be any more of a target than he already is is if he were painted in blue-white circles with a red center.

I assure you, Guile's theme would fit just right.

berserkerbladerx wrote:

I don't know if anyone addressed this yet, and I don't feel like going through 450 giant wall of text posts to verify if it has been or not, but here's the REAL problem with Athena: She's a colossal hypocrite.

Spoiler: Case 3

But BB, anyone could trick Justice McJustice with the philosophies of justice... or distract him with a fight between cats.

...Are we all really going to argue over why assaulting a police officer can't be a joke?

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Wed Nov 13, 2013 2:47 am

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Bad Player wrote:

TheBlarghMan wrote:

Bad Player wrote:

Well, there's also the way the game handles the characters. It sets up Franzy and Klavier to be intimidating and strong, and while Athena is still a rookie, they make it clear that she's still bright and helpful. Even if Yumihiko is a "genius," they make it extremely clear from the get-go that he's a harmless idiot, and the one you really need to watch out for is Mikagami.

Which is coming around to my main point. DD makes it extremely clear as well that, while Athena may have graduated early, she's still very much a rookie and lacks the "punch" that Apollo and Phoenix have. I realize the Yumihiko example is an extreme one, but I think it illustrates my point well in that while calling someone a genius may build a slight amount of tension before a trial (or, at least, it could in the past; I'm pretty sure everyone who's played at least a couple AA games has heard this song and dance enough times for it to not be frightening), the real meat of what sets a character apart as "threatening" is the way they act in court. And when Blackquill nearly runs Athena out of the courtroom, everyone knows that her simply being good at school is by no means going to make the trial any easier.

Eeeeeh. Nowhere in "pretty athletic well-liked eighteen year-old psychologist attorney with swag and superpowers" did I put "skilled." :P

But here's the difference between Nick as a rookie and Athena as a rookie:
Nick is completely, 100% normal. No special accomplishments. No early age. No magic power. No special item. When he faces down Edgeworth the first time, he has no help.
Athena is extraordinary. She's graduated law school six years early. She has a working knowledge of psychology. She is assisted by an Ace Attorney, and has legendary attorney Phoenix Wright in the wings. She has a magic emotion superpower she can perfectly use.
Yes, both are rookies, and both start off really shaky. But we can see that Athena has the tools to succeed: her intellect, her aides, and her superpower. Nick had none of those. And so, even when both Nick and Athena are unskilled greenhorns, Athena's battle is still not nearly as exciting, and her victory seems all the more assured from the get-go.

...What? Phoenix Wright had the help of a super, SUPER-experienced attorney, even BEYOND her death. If Phoenix and Mia's genders were reversed, and then you looked back at all the times Mia or Maya saves him (her) from a lost case in the early games, the game would be accused of playing Knight in Shining Armor way too often. Plus, he gets a Magatama, and his assistants can conjure the dead.

Phoenix didn't even help Athena out much. He paired her up with the office's mid-level attorney who only has a little more experience than her.

Quite honestly, I worry that part of these issues of just poor character determination stem from "power level analysis"; from people who are used to Dragonball Z, in which a person's entire self-worth can be determined by "Who is the toughest person that this guy can beat?" You're thinking too numerically, as though "This person can think logically and win a case. THIS person can think logically, win a case, and can cook excellent pancakes. The pancake-cooker is 'more better'."
This isn't Dragonball Z. As Edgeworth would put it, the Ace Attorney world is a pursuit of the truth by two rivalling sides who try their hardest to argue their side. It's seriously like you would NEED to see attornies losing cases in order to see fault to them. By that merit, Phoenix is the worst attorney in the series as he's already lost two cases. (Yeah, don't put logic to it; I'm just making the case that the "who more better" analysis is broken in a million ways.)

Are we seriously getting into meritous fights over whether Gumshoe-squeezing should be considered illegal?? We have witnesses who lie dozens of times over wishy-washy memories, prosecutors that whip people, throw coffee at attornies, and a judge that falls asleep during his own trials. The game has its "serious modes" in which someone confesses painful memories, and its "don't take this seriously" modes meant to just draw laughs and establish character. Please don't mix them up.

I'm gone for so long, and the colors got all psychedelic! Woohoo!

Re:

Wed Nov 13, 2013 3:25 am

Bad Player

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Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:

What, now people are complaining that Athena can fight? I thought that was one of the better quirks about her. Besides, that scene wasn't about Athena being awesome; it was about Apollo being a target.

C'mon, I've been complaining about that the entire time. That's where "athletic" came in. (It was initially "who knows martial arts," but it got shortened, like how I reduced "multiple unique objects" to "swag.")

Katana wrote:

...What? Phoenix Wright had the help of a super, SUPER-experienced attorney, even BEYOND her death. If Phoenix and Mia's genders were reversed, and then you looked back at all the times Mia or Maya saves him (her) from a lost case in the early games, the game would be accused of playing Knight in Shining Armor way too often. Plus, he gets a Magatama, and his assistants can conjure the dead.

...What? Mia wasn't super-duper-experienced; she was only a lawyer 5 or 6 years. Nick is all alone the first day in 1-2, and he doesn't get Mia until the very end. Even in 1-4, they make a big deal about how Maya can't summon Mia. Which means Nick is left with Maya, and I'd say a 23 year-old attorney seems like he'd be a much better help than a random, average 17 year-old teenager. And Nick doesn't have the magatama in his first game :P

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Re: Re:

Wed Nov 13, 2013 4:53 am

Rubia Ryu the Royal

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Katana wrote:

It's seriously like you would NEED to see attornies losing cases in order to see fault to them. By that merit, Phoenix is the worst attorney in the series as he's already lost two cases.

He didn't lose two; he lost one and the other ended in a hung verdict. Besides, if we're talking worst attorney by victory record, that'd be Prosecutor Godot.

Bad Player wrote:

Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:

What, now people are complaining that Athena can fight? I thought that was one of the better quirks about her. Besides, that scene wasn't about Athena being awesome; it was about Apollo being a target.

C'mon, I've been complaining about that the entire time. That's where "athletic" came in. (It was initially "who knows martial arts," but it got shortened, like how I reduced "multiple unique objects" to "swag.")

~~Don't worry BP I wouldn't forget you~~ Oh, I thought "swag" referred to every one of her unique talents.

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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:09 am

berserkerbladerx

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Quote:

...Are we all really going to argue over why assaulting a police officer can't be a joke?

...Yes, because it's not a joke?

It's something that's ridiculously stupid to do for someone IS A LAYWER, and thus knows damn well THAT KIND OF THING IS ILLEGAL?

Oh, and in response to the other thing:

Spoiler: Case 3

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Wed Nov 13, 2013 7:06 pm

Rubia Ryu the Royal

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berserkerbladerx wrote:

Quote:

...Are we all really going to argue over why assaulting a police officer can't be a joke?

...Yes, because it's not a joke?

It's something that's ridiculously stupid to do for someone IS A LAYWER, and thus knows damn well THAT KIND OF THING IS ILLEGAL?

Don't forget that most of the police department is incompetent and "history's greatest liar" gets off free for perjury. It seems like only the lawyers are still concerned about that stuff.

...No need to be so serious over a trivial thing like that. Can't you see we're arguing over how much swag Athena has? ;)

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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Wed Nov 13, 2013 7:29 pm

Thane

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Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:

berserkerbladerx wrote:

Quote:

...Are we all really going to argue over why assaulting a police officer can't be a joke?

...Yes, because it's not a joke?

It's something that's ridiculously stupid to do for someone IS A LAYWER, and thus knows damn well THAT KIND OF THING IS ILLEGAL?

Don't forget that most of the police department is incompetent and "history's greatest liar" gets off free for perjury. It seems like only the lawyers are still concerned about that stuff.

...No need to be so serious over a trivial thing like that. Can't you see we're arguing over how much swag Athena has? ;)

The only thing lacking is the cap that's not properly in place and could easily be knocked off her head by the smallest breeze...

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:20 pm

berserkerbladerx

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Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:

berserkerbladerx wrote:

Quote:

...Are we all really going to argue over why assaulting a police officer can't be a joke?

...Yes, because it's not a joke?

It's something that's ridiculously stupid to do for someone IS A LAYWER, and thus knows damn well THAT KIND OF THING IS ILLEGAL?

Don't forget that most of the police department is incompetent and "history's greatest liar" gets off free for perjury. It seems like only the lawyers are still concerned about that stuff.

And this justifies physically assaulting a cop, how?

Dance around the issue all you want. Athena physically assaulted a police officer. She faced no punishment for her actions. It's stupid.

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Thu Nov 14, 2013 12:58 am

Rubia Ryu the Royal

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berserkerbladerx wrote:

And this justifies physically assaulting a cop, how?

Dance around the issue all you want. Athena physically assaulted a police officer. She faced no punishment for her actions. It's stupid.

Yes, exactly. It's unthinkable to believe that law enforcement would fall to such levels of incompetence, but when has any game in this series NOT made fun of it? It's up to you whether you want to laugh about it or not, but there are plenty of examples of jokes in similar taste.

...And then there are those jokes about things that didn't happen, like Athena stealing Fulbright's shades and wearing them everywhere she goes. I felt that was one thing that was missing from her image. She needed a pair of shades, preferably the pair as shown in one of her concept arts.

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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Fri Nov 15, 2013 10:10 pm

Hahex

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Honestly, Athene is probably in the moral wrong. Fact is, the officer was unconscious and didn't press charges. Does this really make her entire character completely awful though?

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Fri Nov 15, 2013 11:32 pm

berserkerbladerx

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Nah.

The hypocrite part is the REAL reason I dislike her, the physically assaulting an officer thing is just icing on the cake and another reason that I don't.

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Sun Nov 17, 2013 8:52 pm

Sligneris

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...Are we arguing about things like this now, really?

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:26 am

Danchat

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Hahex wrote:

Honestly, Athene is probably in the moral wrong. Fact is, the officer was unconscious and didn't press charges. Does this really make her entire character completely awful though?

Of course he didn't press charges, he probably lost his memory! That seems to happen to anybody in this series who gets hit on the head.

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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:35 am

Rubia Ryu the Royal

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Danchat wrote:

Hahex wrote:

Honestly, Athene is probably in the moral wrong. Fact is, the officer was unconscious and didn't press charges. Does this really make her entire character completely awful though?

Of course he didn't press charges, he probably lost his memory! That seems to happen to anybody in this series who gets hit on the head.

Not Atmey. He clearly has more brains than anyone who's been hit on the head and survived.

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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Mon Nov 18, 2013 6:20 am

berserkerbladerx

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Sligneris wrote:

...Are we arguing about things like this now, really?

That wasn't even my main point as to why I dislike Athena, and it's still stupid no matter which way you look at it?

So yes. We are arguing about things like this. Really.

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Mon Nov 18, 2013 2:33 pm

Franzise Deauxnim

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Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:

Danchat wrote:

Hahex wrote:

Honestly, Athene is probably in the moral wrong. Fact is, the officer was unconscious and didn't press charges. Does this really make her entire character completely awful though?

Of course he didn't press charges, he probably lost his memory! That seems to happen to anybody in this series who gets hit on the head.

Not Atmey. He clearly has more brains than anyone who's been hit on the head and survived.

Wasn't he lying about that?

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Mon Nov 18, 2013 2:43 pm

CatMuto

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Franzise Deauxnim wrote:

Wasn't he lying about that?

I can't remember, but if he didn't, wasn't he hit on the front?
Maybe that's why he didn't lose any memory?

C-A

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Mon Nov 18, 2013 2:59 pm

BonnyMono

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CatMuto wrote:

Franzise Deauxnim wrote:

Wasn't he lying about that?

I can't remember, but if he didn't, wasn't he hit on the front?
Maybe that's why he didn't lose any memory?

C-A

He was lying (obviously), hence Ron was at a different place when Luke was stealing the urn. (Or thinking of that lie.)

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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:11 pm

Ash

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Danchat wrote:

Hahex wrote:

Honestly, Athene is probably in the moral wrong. Fact is, the officer was unconscious and didn't press charges. Does this really make her entire character completely awful though?

Of course he didn't press charges, he probably lost his memory! That seems to happen to anybody in this series who gets hit on the head.

From the GS mobile site:

Spoiler:

"One dumbbell, Watson! Consider an athlete with one dumbbell! Picture to yourself the unilateral development, the imminent danger of a spinal curvature. Shocking, Watson, shocking!" - The Valley of Fear

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:47 pm

Pierre

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Really? Folks are making the massive generalisation that hitting on head = memory loss. There's no evidence the officer in question landed on his head especially hard. Apollo got hit on the head and he didn't seem to suffer much memory loss (IIRC) and lets not forget HoboNick who got hit by a car...and hit his head on a lamppost and only got a sprained ankle.

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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:55 pm

Rubia Ryu the Royal

Racing through the sky like a Missile

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Silly Pierre. It's more about how you swing things at people's heads. :p

Ash wrote:

From the GS mobile site:

Spoiler:

It might be smoother on the tongue to restate that last line as "Buy some insurance measures already!", but that's my opinion.

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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Mon Nov 18, 2013 8:08 pm

Thane

Gender: None specified

Rank: Prosecutor

Joined: Sat Jun 22, 2013 7:47 pm

Posts: 970

Ash wrote:

Spoiler:

Shortest. Tie. Ever.

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Mon Nov 18, 2013 8:11 pm

Going for Miles

The video game boy; the one who wins

Gender: Male

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Posts: 7747

Ahaha. No, it's just tucked behind his vest, isn't it? But now I can only see it that way and it does look very silly xD

(......Ack! I've run out of snide comments!)

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Mon Nov 18, 2013 8:31 pm

Thane

Gender: None specified

Rank: Prosecutor

Joined: Sat Jun 22, 2013 7:47 pm

Posts: 970

GoingforMiles wrote:

Ahaha. No, it's just tucked behind his vest, isn't it? But now I can only see it that way and it does look very silly xD

It's clearly not, look at how the bottom of it, it's got that pointy edge thing! God this is just priceless! I'm laughing way too hard at this.

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Tue Nov 19, 2013 2:06 am

Bad Player

1000% Knight

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Posts: 6932

Thane wrote:

Ash wrote:

Spoiler:

Shortest. Tie. Ever.

I dunno, Hazama's is preeeeeeeeeeetty short.

Credit to Evolina for the sig+avatar!

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Tue Nov 19, 2013 8:58 am

Going for Miles

The video game boy; the one who wins

Gender: Male

Location: Sweden

Rank: Ace Attorney

Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:22 pm

Posts: 7747

Ponity edge-thing like this?

(......Ack! I've run out of snide comments!)

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:36 am

Thane

Gender: None specified

Rank: Prosecutor

Joined: Sat Jun 22, 2013 7:47 pm

Posts: 970

GoingforMiles wrote:

Ponity edge-thing like this?

Yes, but the tie is clearly in front of Phoenix's vest!

...I can't help but feel we're going off-topic somehow.

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:35 pm

CatMuto

Gender: Female

Rank: Ace Attorney

Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:23 pm

Posts: 9918

Pierre wrote:

[...] HoboNick who got hit by a car...and hit his head on a lamppost and only got a sprained ankle.

Yeah but that was after he got hit on the head with a fire extinguisher, so his head is probably immune to memory-loss-due-to-nogging-hit.

C-A