Athena annoyed me at first, but she grew on me and I like her plenty.

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Last edited by Sligneris on Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I get the feeling posting like that is just baiting people to argue with you. Can't we just settle that some folks don't like Athena and some do? Well least this is appropriate place even if it's a mini-necro to bring up old arguments but hey it's in the appropriate place so I'll bite.




So she's fallible in the most minor ways. She has learned too much and she has learned it poorly, but given her background it's still not enough. A relatively unremarkable kid with poor school attendence who suffers some parental neglect does not instantly get into a university or anywhere really to start learning Law. Also having emotional outbursts isn't really a flaw, it's a character quirk. She's learned too much and has gained too much that she never should have been able to. Unless they come out and say in the next game that despite her terrible attendance at school she was a prodigy and that her relatives abroad were connected to the Law I'm not buying it. Even then if she was a prodigy at school she'd be even more of a Sue. As for working to save her friend? It's nice but it's inconsistent. I'm fairly sure she says she only thought about Law after she spoke with Mr Wright.



No it wasn't so much according to the marketing. The marketing implied it would be Phoenix's game focusing on his return to court more than anything else, fan sentiment had either cried out for Phoenix to return to courts (meaning screentime for him) or for Apollo to get some desperately needed development after his poorly-shunted story in AJ. With a title like Dual Destinies and the Logo being in Red and Blue it's clearly implicated it would be about Apollo and Phoenix. Of course we'd expect Blackquill to get his light being the main prosecutor but she still takes too much where fans had been looking for more of the original cast. I'm all in favour of new characters sure, but in a new series perhaps I think they are juggling too many characters now and unless they increase the standard number of cases per game I think this'll keep happening.



I think you are missing the point, your argument implies we could stick Widget on anyone and they'd have the power. Her ability is explained in that we know what it is, it's not explained in that we have no idea where it comes from. Apollo's power comes from an officially confirmed 'magical' bloodline. Plus his power isn't even so unique that it can't be taught or caught onto, as Trucy teaches Phoenix enough of it to go on.

Athena's comes from...nowhere. They could have thrown in one line about her mother having it or some papers on her desk on her research into it but no it's not explained anywhere. Also it doesn't just 'speak' on it's own it straight up reads her mind, that's ABSURD technology. She has too much from nowhere. She's always had the power to hear hearts, widget just acts as a projector for the mood matrix. Now that might have been programmed in by Metis because...



Also since when did Apollo's bracelet detect how he feels?



Well I've never really had a problem with this, it's just her being unique with her athleticism. Though I'm curious where Apollo's super-regeneration came from I don't think it's a strong argument that she's too physically strong.

What it is, is when tied into the lack of time she'd have for training because she's already cramming for psychology and law exams a whole SCHOOL above her current education levels she shouldn't be able to judo-throw cops. Stick a few language classes on there and it's even more questionable.

Like BP said, if she'd only been a few years older this would all be fine.

Also note: 3 of the problems (the ones not related to how the story was written) can be solved if Athena is an android.

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Last edited by Sligneris on Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I don't think Athena knows a lot about the other languages. Maybe she only learned a few sentences.
At one point she says "Je suis prêt". That sentence is grammatically correct only if the speaker is male.

Fair enough, I never really put much weight in a few of her language classes, it's just an argument I'd heard a few other folks raise.



Man isn't Phoenix x Edgeworth everywhere? I feel like that ship is being pushed down our throats, same with Phoenix and Maya and Klavier and Ema and Athena and Apollo.

Tolerate me this besides you can hardly dissuade it. It's no more repetitive than this very argument we're having right now.



Well it's a fault with the writing on never explaining how it fully works. I'd wondered before the game came out whether it was a product of her powers or of her tech that she could read emotions the way she does. The game doesn't make it much clearer but I believe (in this very thread no less) someone suggested Athena heard the information and input it onto the Mood Matrix making it presentable to the court. That way both of them seem useful.



Easy Tiger I wasn't contesting it, I was just saying that's probably the reason from where it came from (since the reason for Widget's construction was never explained).



That's cool that it actually exists and all, but just because no exact mechanism can explain it in real life doesn't mean it shouldn't be explainable according to fiction. Also nothing in your article references to 'hearing emotions of the heart' like Athena does. Look at it this way, are the writers going to assume the audience is familiar with super-sensitive hearing and the fact it's inexplicable in real life? No they aren't, so it's their responsibility to explain why in their fictional setting. If they opt out of that entirely it's a poor show for all involved. Even if it had been something like a family (or hell being hit by a meteorite) it would be SOMETHING. As it is there is nothing to indicate the source of her power.



A biological twitch, his eyes detect something slightly and his wrist twitches giving the impression his bracelet is tightening. Then Apollo knows something is up and examines closer to find the thing that set his twitch off.

Really I don't think Apollo needed a magical explanation at all, reading tells and body language is something that's already done but Apollo isn't really the point here.

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Last edited by Sligneris on Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:50 pm, edited 3 times in total.

No worries, everyone has rough nights.

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I hope the next game at least has Apollo standing on Athena's shoulders in the figurative and thematic aspect, rather than the literal way. And I mean that as him standing tall as a better senpai than he was in this game, not as him needing to rely on her for anything.

On the other hand, taking it literally comes to an image that is an answer to the question "How many lawyers does it take to screw in a light bulb?"

The answer is three: one to carry someone, one to screw it in, and one to ask what the heck they're doing when there's a perfectly good STEPladder in the other room.

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I liked Athena, and I never really thought that she was overshadowing the whole thing. It was partly her story, yeah, but that was because it was tied up into Blackquills. Just like Phoenix was tied into Edgeworth's in the original game, or Maya being tied into the Kurain stories (and into Godot's, indirectly through Mia). Plus, Phoenix and Apollo had their own roles to play in the story. Nick's really shown he's grown up but that makes him more into a mentor and that pushes him into the observer role even as we play as him. Meanwhile, Apollo's showing the fire that we'd heard about in the previous game but didn't see that much of (and that's coming from me, who likes Polly and AJ:AA).

To me at least, I think that a large part of some fan's dislike towards Athena came because the game didn't turn out how they were expecting it to. And that's fine, that's what opinions are based around. But it's certainly not the game's fault, it's not under anyone's obligations.

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If anything, I'm sure the scenario team considered their alternatives and arrived at a difficult decision. They wanted the new prosecutor character to have a closer relationship with the main characters, but since he was only introduced in this game, they'd need a new character - a middleman - who'd associate closely with him and the ones we're familiar with. The simplest way became to introduce another assistant character.

They also wanted to introduce a simplified concept of witness psychology and a new game mechanic to pair with it. They ended up putting in lots of flashy lights and blaring sounds, but they still managed to take a subject that's usually taken pretty seriously and turn it into a child's toy. Granted, the explanation given in-game behind how it worked was pretty faulty, but Widget was never the focus of the story. The fact they made him unique, though, might not have been the best decision.

Then, they took all their new brilliant ideas and stuffed them more into their new characters, specifically into one more than the others. That's the sign of rushed projects, my friends.

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A lawyer too young, really? But what about Franziska? Edgeworth? Klavier? That's a theme in the GS series. Is it overdone? Yes. But complaining about that part of Athena and no other character...ehhh.... doesn't make much sense.


There were problems with Athena's character but overall she had a lot of potential. The fact that people were upset that she took up so much of the focus I do understand-- we had (probably logically) assumed that GS5 would focus on Apollo instead of practically hitting the reset button on his arc. But she was the main character-- so taking up time and story is to be expected and not at all unfair. If they were to introduce Athena at all, it would have been better in GS6 or something after Apollo got to expand a little more.

My problem was not that Athena had super-empathy/special hearing-- it's not a bad idea. But they wrote it reallyyy clunkily. The dialogue sounded so unnatural and lame and not at all how you would speak in a courtroom. The Mood Matrix was visually/auditorally good, but again, it's implementation and use was a bit fluffy and felt a bit weak. Witnesses, in reality, would have been able to deny their feelings if they really wanted to. The whole idea of the "therapy session" made me eye-roll; it wasn't what "therapy" means by any stretch of the imagination.

I'm tiring of Athena's archetype. We've seen it already with Maya, young!Ema, and a bit with Trucy. If we ignore all other characters an examine Athena, there's nothing wrong with her characterization but it's getting a little old when you consider the others. There's more than one way to write female sidekicks, Capcom! It'd have been nice if she was a little more serious or something. There's a wide range of awesome girls in the GS series but the sidekicks tend to end up the same (you could say the same about Phoenix/Apollo too but that's for another thread, I suppose).

But I did like Athena. I'd rather have the next game focus on Apollo, but I liked learning about her in DD.


tl;dr: Athena's got potential but the writers fumbled a little.

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Considering how much text is in this thread I don't blame you for missing it, but this has been addressed several times already :P

In short, the complaint isn't just that Athena is too young. It isn't "just" any one of her traits. It's all of her traits, taken together. She's an athletic, outgoing, pretty bilingual lawyer psychologist genius with unexplained magical powers and multiple unique items, who is so beloved that people are willing to die for her, even though a mere 7 years ago she was a shy, awkward girl who barely left her house. It's just too much for one character, especially a protagonist.

Franziska and Edgeworth both have Manfred von Karma in their character backgrounds, urging on and accelerating their legal education. They also both have pretty major character flaws. Athena has neither.

The one counterargument would possibly be Klavier, except... I think he's a terrible character, too. Make no mistake: I don't complain about Klavier in here not because I think he's fine, but because this is Athena's thread. (Athena is pretty much all of Klavier's problems... multiplied by twenty.)


(On the subject of Athena and foreign languages: In the Japanese version, she studied in America, so she knows at least English and Japanese. Since I haven't played the English version, I don't know if she studied in "Europe" or "Germany." If it was "Europe," I guess maybe she could have been in England and not needed any foreign languages, but considering how every other genius in AA has studied in Germany, and how she definitely needed another language in the Japanese version, I think we can accept that she's bilingual, right?)

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The main reason why I can tolerate Athena more than Klavier at this point is because she's only been introduced in this game. Klavier had potential to do much more in the game following the one where he starred in, but the writers didn't use his potential. Now I feel like I'm forced to trash him myself to keep up with the canon. Yet, with the direction they've given Athena, it doesn't seem like she has that many options to choose either, and most likely, they'll shove her off to the side as well. Sooner or later, I'll be forced to toss her aside as well.

It's another reason why I don't mind Yamazaki's writing that much, since I've noticed similar flaws in some of Takumi's writing. They just aren't as pronounced in Takumi's, since he's had a longer legacy.


She studied in Germany. I dunno where she learned her other foreign languages, since it was never explained. It doesn't matter anyway; she was already overloaded with qualities.

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Unless I've missed a line somewhere, she said she studied in Europe, not Germany...

Ah, thanks for that, Bad Player. It makes more sense now when you explain it like that.

I always kind of assumed Athena was pulling a Klavier (I don't think the guy's actually German) when she threw in random foreign languages in that-- she didn't actually know the language but she was just being silly. I never got the impression that she truly spoke any of them.

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Last edited by Sligneris on Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

No need to assume:

Although I'm still confused about the "how" and "why" of leaving Widget with Athena.

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Come on, if she really studied in the entirety of Europe, why didn't I hear her talk Polish or Swedish? Heck, I would have liked to hear her speak Romanian or Hungarian. I don't hear those languages too often.

jk. Still, it doesn't take traveling to multiple countries just to learn a few words of various major languages. The ones she uses are pretty common and she might as well have come upon them while surfing the web on Widget and using online translators.

Widget has Wi-fi, right? That's one of the most important things to install on a portable electronic device.

Besides, just thinking about how this young teenager hopped from school to school across countries... that's not because she's a genius; that's because her folks kept moving because they couldn't find stable jobs. Now how is she supposed to get her studies together that way?

How about we stick with my latent bribery theory from before? It sounds so much more plausible.


Family inheritance? Or perhaps, Metis just liked dressing up her daughter with shining things.

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Last edited by Sligneris on Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Woah woah woah....

Widget has WiFi now?! TOO OP!

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Last edited by Sligneris on Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

You're repeating yourself because you ignore it every single time Pierre or I address this.

Athena's hearing does not work the same as "sensitive hearing".

Athena's hearing and IRL sensitive hearing are similar in that both involve hearing beyond what the average person hears. Their actual effects, however, are very different. Sensitive hearing simply means that the hearing is much more sensitive--that is, they can hear softer sounds much more clearly. In other words, the quantity of sound they hear is increased.

Athena's power, however, deals with the quality of sound. She can hear the "voice of the heart," and through that a person's true emotions, even when they try to mask it.

If you took someone with IRL sensitive hearing, they would not be able to do what Athena says. If I acted really happy, they would not be able to tell that I was secretly sad on the inside, or if I acted freaked out they would not be able to tell that I was actually really excited, or anything like that more than a regular person would be able to.

So no, you can't excuse Athena's power away with "It's sensitive hearing!"


Pierre addressed a lot of this in his earlier post, but your comparison to Polly's eyesight is quite poor. First, it's explained where the power comes from: his bloodline. Second, it operates using things that do exist in real life, namely tics. I've yet to hear of scientific proof or evidence for "the voice of the heart." Finally, there is an explanation for the bracelet. When Apollo senses a nervous tic in someone else, he unconsciously tenses up, and this creates the sensation that his bracelet is tightening. There is nothing more to Athena's power than "She just does it."

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Wait a minute, that's not what I meant at all. You said she studied in Germany, I was just saying that in the game, she says she studied in "Europe", and never specifies "Germany". I never implied she was travelling across Europe, I think she stayed in a single place but I'm just saying we don't know which country it was. It could have been in the UK.

New headcanon.

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Widget clearly served as an interface to express Android!Thena's thoughts and feelings before they had finished building her.

After all if they couldn't nail down the heart and self properly in the programming they weren't ready for a physical shell for her core Ai.

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Last edited by Sligneris on Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Since you seem to have missed the joke: The "Athena is an android!" theory is not a "real" that we actually believe, but rather a theory used to demonstrate the point that Athena is not a very well-constructed character by pointing out how much better her character is explained by something stupid like "she's a robot" compared to the face-value canon explanation.

So in short, no.

(Of course, if it actually ended up happening in GS6 that would be amazing.)

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Last edited by Sligneris on Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Its just a joke theory man though for the record I don't recall you significantly disproving it.
Didn't mean no harm against you with it just thinking its a funny thing.

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I'm going to change the order of your post a little bit, but...


It's an opinion. I think it's pretty clear at this point that it's the opinion of myself and a few certain other individuals. When we say "Athena is a bad character!" it means "It is my opinion that Athena is a bad characters!", not "Athena is a bad character, AND THAT IS ABSOLUTE, UNDENIABLE FACT." There just isn't much reason to preface every single opinion with a statement stating it is such, especially on something that is obviously subjective.

But yes, we believe our opinions are true, and act as such, and try to present proof and arguments to that effect. That's what a debate/discussion is.


Look at the title of the thread. You're going to find people arguing against Athena in a thread about discussing Athena's character, yeah. (If it was only her supporters, it wouldn't be much of a "discussion," would it?) Even at its peak, I think the whole Athena discussion never spanned more than 5 threads, all in the sub-forum, and it's pretty much consolidated down into this thread since it was made.


If debating about Athena is making you unhappy, then stop debating about her and posting in this thread. Simple as that.

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Last edited by Sligneris on Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sligneris, I don't mean to be rude, but you don't really "debate". You rarely address any of the very well-thought-out points of people such as Pierre and Bad Player, opting instead to repeating your thoughts on the matter over and over again with a striking lack of details. I'm frankly getting tired of it.

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Last edited by Sligneris on Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Well I still don't feel her powers are well-justified other than "Athena has powers just cause", I still feel she has too many gifts in the form of her technology that only she can use and that technology itself is ridiculous (a mind-reading device? Really?). Also she learned too much too quickly, 7 years isn't enough. I appreciate you found an article of a girl who had done that herself in real life but that girl had been trained since birth by a super-hyper-must-achieve mother.

To avoid previous arguments I'll just list previous explanations I find inadequate-

1: But Klavier and Franny!

Klavier is heavily implied (in the same way Laguna is heavily implied to be Squall's dad just not stated which is, all but certain) to be from Germany, land of super education. His older brother might also have pulled some strings for him. Being a successful band is good but he makes sure his prosecution comes first and the guitar is something you can easily learn in your spare time. Themis Legal Academy (where Klavier spent time at) even advertises a 'Battle of the Bands' in one of those posters in the hallway (I'm pretty sure), where else better to found the beginnings of a law-themed rock band?

Franny HAD the super-hyper-must-achieve parent approach from a parent dedicated to their job with massive amounts of influence in the field, he could easily home-school and influence her into the prosecution position.

Athena has no connection to the field of law, and it's indicated she has a good level of knowledge about psychology warranting proper education at somepoint. What we KNOW is that she was not exceptional in school and had poor attendance. Her mother could have been an option to teach her but it's actually established in the game that she always thought her mother was cold to her and too busy with work to spend time with her.

2: Her powers exist in the real world! How can you say they come from nowhere with no explanation? Apollo is just as bad.

As BP said, they don't exist in the real world like they do in AA. Your article indicated people who can hear pretty well but nothing about hearing the 'voices of the heart' as Athena plays it up. Even then just because it's inexplicable in real-life doesn't mean it has to be in a fictional setting which just comes across as poor-writing.

Also there is no causal source of her powers in the world, not from her mother, no idea about her father, not from anything really, it's just something she has. Is it a genetic mutation? Is she actually an android? Is it all just Widget doing the work? No one knows because it's never clarified. This makes Athena look WORSE because they are just ticking the "superpower" box on protagonists rather than justifying their abilities. Apollo's is justified with his bloodline, DOES exist in a form in the real world and does have some actual explainable mechanism to it.

3: So what if she has things they are all explainable by the fact she lived in a high-tech place!

Yes she does live in a high-tech place but even so the level of amazing technology associated with her (namely Widget) is on such an advanced level that the like of which is seen nowhere else. Even at the Space Centre, things may be dressed up to look futuristic but the technology is all pretty much as it exists now the Dress up is for the tourists. Widget is a portable, mind-reading device with a built-in projector and a function for analysing emotions. I cannot emphasise enough how mind-reading is the deal breaker here. Nothing of it's level is shown ANYWHERE in the AA universe. The Space Center may have Robots with somewhat-realistic AI (though they are more like tour guides) but they are nothing in the face of this technology. The argument just doesn't hold up me. What's worse is this amazing technology is UNIQUE to Athena, the only one of it's kind so intricate that even she barely knows how it works. They could have included a throwaway line about how "It's a new device for the field of analytical psychology!" instead of being the only one of it's kind, taken out the mind reading stuff (that's just inexplicable and they never made much use of that quirk anyway) and said she saw someone else using one on her course abroad. THEN I'd accept Widget as believable.

It pretty much boils down to sure it comes from a high-tech place, but it's at least future-tech level and it's not believable even there. It also makes her too 'special' in that only she has it.

That's our opinions that I'd quite like to see an answer from you about. There might be more complaints but these just seemed like the commonplace ones off the top of my head.

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Last edited by Sligneris on Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Let me just say that this is a huuuuge step up from... pretty much all of your posts about Athena up until now, Sligneris. Now then...


I don't remember the exact details, but I do remember that she pretty much came from a family of overarchievers, and I think there was something about her mom really pushing her... I'm too lazy to pull up the article again, though.


EDIT: Nvm, look at the next post


I think you're overestimating human potential. If all it takes to graduate college at 18 is to 'want' it, why is it such a rare occurrence? While there certainly are some people who are smart enough to do it, it makes for a bland protagonist when she's a genius with a gigantic heap of other positive traits, and an unrealistic one when she does it after being a not-particularly-(academically)-special recluse for the majority of her life.


Pierre's point is that even if she got control of her hearing, seven years is not enough time for a preteen to get over the death of their parent, move to a new country on the other side of the world, get over all their antisocial habits they built up from a decade of being a recluse, graduate middle school, high school, and college twice.


A fifteen year-old with zero prior connections or interest in law becoming a lawyer in three years is pretty unrealistic.


But if it's just "regular" sensitive hearing, how does being able to hear quieter sounds let her hear hidden emotions? You don't seem to be distinguishing between being able to hear the 'quantity' and 'quality' of sounds, and the level of 'quality' of sound that Athena can analyze is supernatural, and has no analog in real life.


Edgey's logic is merely a visual metaphor.

Godot is not blind in the sense that his eyes just don't work at all. They don't go into the details, but it's acceptable here because it's placed in a context that does seem plausible in real life. He was poisoned with some very vague but advanced drug, resulting in some weird complications, including some type of blindness that can be fixed with the visor. The visor can't just be put onto any blind person and let them see.

You've never tried to relax, and realized that a part of your body was a lot tenser than you had noticed? Well, I guess there's a reason you don't notice when you unconsciously tense. Still, the point of the bracelet is to make the unconscious tension conscious for Polly. And it's definitely hereditary; that's why Trucy also has the ability.


Yes, there are certainly details that are never explained in pretty much every work of fiction (for various reasons, including to specifically leave it up to the audience's interpretation), but leaving a character's defining trait unexplained just makes it seem like sloppy writing.


Athena basically calls it that the very first time Widget talks. Moreover, the very first time Widget talks, he says exactly what Athena is thinking, word for word, using words that are both extremely specific to the context/situation and words that had never been used up until that point (except in Athena's thoughts).

There's really no denying that it's a mind-reading device.


It's a portable, remote mind-reading device. I don't doubt that Widget is a one-of-a-kind machine made and given by Metis, but that's just stupid. Mind reading technology is hyper-advanced technology. Before we could get something like Widget, I'm sure we'd need much more inferior versions--larger machines, machines that must directly connect to the person, machines that can only give general thoughts/feelings rather than precise verbal thoughts. Moreover, mind reading technology would be something you'd likely devote a gigantic team of researchers too, if it was actually working. But instead, we get a portable mind-reading device built on the first go by a sole person. And on top of that, the one-of-a-kind technology doesn't get taken by the government, and instead goes to a random preteen? It's just... sloppy, bland, and unrealistic.


also offtopic, but if metis was working at a space center, why was she researching emotions and mind reading?

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*sigh*

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Please Sligneris you know I don't hate Athena entirely, don't need to be so picky as to jump on every sentence like it's fact it just comes off as a bit pernickety but alright.



Yeah, Gabrielle Turnquest was certainly an admirable individual so I did a bit of digging on how she did what she did. Here's an article, I know it's from a blog but the blog is just reposting an article from the Telegraph because it's 'subscription only' at the source. She calls her mother a 'barracuda mum' (barracuda being a particularly voracious fish) and details the extremely complex program her mother had went through to ensure her children accomplished their goals.



Klavier SPENT TIME at Themis Legal Academy, doesn't mean he graduated there or didn't spend some time with "magical German Education". The argument stands. Surely after you've seen the kind of multi-national education course detailed in the article above you'd understand if he could hop about places for different parts of his course to complete it a little bit earlier.



Sorry man perhaps it's me but this argument doesn't even make sense grammatically to me. I have no idea what kind of point you are trying to get across with it. Penalty.



Er...I'm not debating why she had poor attendance at school nor is it especially said she was 'bad' at school. She's just not mentioned at being exceptional there. I understand her medical issues kept her out of school but that wasn't the point I was making. The point I was making is that none of these qualities are going to get her enrolled in a Law Academy, they have requirements and standards, minimum levels of education that must be met. Athena doesn't show any reason to be accepted.

Also that connection is flimsy and undefined at best, all that quote mentions is that she met Phoenix at one point. Not that he pulled strings to get her through.

Let's compare it shall we? A young singer lacks confidence and goes to a concert of her favourite musician. While there she gets to meet the musician personally and talks to them. The Musician tells her how difficult they had it when starting out and encourages the singer to use their talent. This gives the young singer the confidence to actually try and build a career with her music.

The Singer decided to go into music AFTER she met her hero at one point. It does not mean the Musician hooked her up with a recording studio, a record label and wrote her first 3 albums for her.



I really don't know where you are going with this, I think I'm going to have to give you another penalty. No I'm not claiming there's any literal stuff like that, no I'm not denying it's possible to hear emotions in a person's voice to hear anguish sadness and anger no. Those are regular human traits nothing supernatural about it. ATHENA on the other hand hears concealed emotions, she hears the subconscious. I can tell when my own voice gets sad or angry I'm aware of it. She hears the emotions of someone when they aren't aware, she hears the subconscious and the heart. From what I recall most of her 'counselling' sessions resulted in her helping someone 'piece together' memories that were unclear from their emotions. Things they didn't know at the time, sort of like Phoenix's black psyche locks. The ability to hear the heart, and the subconsciousness is most definitely supernatural. If it gets so bad that once upon a time she had to wear specially made headphones to drown out the voices in her head? It's definitely a superpower.



This is what I meant about jumping at every little thing I said. I was not seriously suggesting it was Widget doing it all, I was throwing out suggestions to indicate that it is not really clarified.



I can't say anything about logic chess as I've not played GK2. I'd assume it's just a mental representation of how he sees the battle of wits playing out rather than a literal transformation. It's the same with his logic, just a visual representation for us (the player) to see what's going on in his head.



He doesn't need to be connected to technology specialists...it was part of his treatment when he was recovering in hospital. It also doesn't allow him to see that well, the whole crux of the final case sort of rests on the fact that his vision is still pretty dysfunctional even with the visor. Also we already have various ways in real life of treating a wide range of visual disorders so it's not really a big stretch.



I didn't mean that translated to real life, I was referring to the reading of body language. Hell the real-life example of it is actually mentioned in Game. Phoenix lacks any magical power of his own but with a bit of help from Trucy he can read 'tells' from his opponents at Poker. Hell he even did it before he met Trucy in order to beat Zak at Poker. Reading people's tells and motions is something that's done in real life, typically in poker. We use it every day, we can tell when someone shuffles about uncomfortably or when they are excited by their movements, this is just for subtler motions. Also Apollo's power is totally hereditary...that's why Trucy has it too, it's explained as being in the Gramarye bloodline.



No I'm not, I don't even hate her, I just think she's lacking in a lot of things. Sensitive hearing in real life as you suggested doesn't work like her power does. Fan explanations aren't fully valid (even then my Android theory is an explanation and you keep knocking it). Also yes I have read books when they didn't explain things...I hated them, I considered it bad writing when they don't explain things like that. There's too many loose ends to Athena that just make her seem...annoying in light of them.

To me it seems like you just want to fight about this, no one is knocking you for liking Athena you can believe what you want to about her man. Just understand that we are entitled to think what we want of Athena as well.




From Page 4 of this very thread...this argument has already been made. How would it know what she is thinking? It can read her mind.



Once more...I am not arguing how she acquired it, that's pretty clear it probably was inherited. I'm arguing it is such unbelievable technology, and it's completely unique to Athena that makes her TOO special.


Also....Sumguy sorts the whole Klavier issue easily. I knew somewhere that there was evidence thank god someone sorted that for me before I'd finished my post haha

@BP
clearly metis was trying to invent super-injustice-hunt-model-00001-ATHENA and was going to incorporate the tech into her

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