The discussion here is really interesting. My two cents is that her story is the highlight of the game, and that her character development was needed to round out the team in a way that didn't make her seem like an add-on. I was especially impressed with how the relationship between Apollo and Athena was tested.

At first, I was very skeptical of Athena because we've seen the "excitable, clumsy, but reliable female character" before. But the game proved to me that Athena was a lot more than that, and I ended up really warming up to her by the end. Partly because her story is so heartbreaking, and partly because she's so earnest. Some people dislike the fact that she's considered a "prodigy," but in reality, Athena's inexperience and nerves underscore her entire performance as a defense attorney, in a way that almost parallels Phoenix circa game 1 to me. Also, we shouldn't forget that And as for the claim that "everyone liked Athena,"

At the end of the game, I felt that Athena was an intricate, endearing character with a lot of of room for maturing/growth, which was exactly where I wanted to be left. As she grows up, I think we'll see her develop in even more interesting ways. Also, I apologize if anything I said has already been brought up and beaten to death before.

Hmm regarding her being a Defence attorney at 18...drive is nice...but it's not enough justification. I want a lot of things in life a lot but it's not enough to cover little logistics. I know it's fictional setting so it doesn't need to abide by such laws but what's she has accomplished seems more than her drive has ever been.

If her drive was that strong I'd expect her to be focusing on him the second she arrived, but her drive is only mentioned in the final case, if you'd been training for the past few years to save someone why would you waste precious time until the day before their execution before making it clear. She claims her drive is the motivation but she also claims Phoenix is the motivation, again it seems like they just leave so much about Athena unclear that they really should have covered.

---

I see your point that her motivations can be unclear. I don't know if this needs to be in a spoiler tag but I'm just gonna be cautious :)



And even if we can consider her a prodigy, I don't mind that, really. Until Athena, we hadn't seen that kind of story on the defense's side. If the idea behind her was that she was very gifted but also incredibly fragile, it sets her apart from the other characters. Her prodigy qualities don't make her invincible or formidable like they seem to do for the characters on the prosecution's side.

I don't agree with everything, but I think that's an interesting take on her. I'll gladly hear the perspective from someone who likes Athena and thinks she's a good character, both because there's been so much (justified) criticism on her character, and because I want to like her.

---

They did a pretty bad job of it, then. Between Athena's flashbacks in case one and her reaction to Blackquill's name in case two, I had her entire backstory and character arc for the game completely pinned down before the first trial of case two.


This still doesn't address the disconnect between Athena's (and Nick and Edgey's, actually) words and her actions.

She (they) claims that everything was done for the sole purpose of saving Simon.

However, near the end of the game, Simon is going to be killed in literally a day, and she (they) does nothing. (If it hadn't been for Aura, there is literally nothing in the game to suggest that Athena, Nick, or Edgey were going to do anything about Simon's execution... or if they even knew about it.)


This is exactly one of the reasons I hated Athena. We haven't seen this story from the defense's side--and we shouldn't. What made AA so exciting was that we were the underdog; we were just a regular joe schmoe, against a genius prosecutor that became an attorney at the young age of X and has been undefeated for Y years. Now we're the genius, and the prosecutor is just some regular guy. While we 'know' that we're going to win regardless of the protagonist, from an in-story perspective it just makes it boring. And while Athena may be inexperienced, she still has her sheer genius, her background in psychology, her magical mind/emotion-reading powers, and two undefeated attornies backing her up.

That's why I found her character boring. And while her story may have been "heartbreaking," it felt way too much like a rehash of the 1-5/SL-9 plot for me to get emotionally invested in it. (I didn't even find it that emotional, to be honest. Having your parent killed is terrible, but it starts to lose effect when she's the fourth assistant with a murdered parent. And note that I said "assistant," not "character." They also never really explained why Simon was going to such lengths to protect Athena, which turns Simon into a hollow character and Athena into a Mary Sue, as compared to Lana in 1-5, who had a clear and compelling reason for protecting Ema.)

---

[removed]

---

Last edited by Sligneris on Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.

And also, a very important point to me; Athena was a child. I have no problem at all imagining some people would go that far to protect a child.

---

The problem with Blackquill defending Athena is that we have to pretty much guess how much they interacted before he was sent to jail. We have no idea how often he was there, nor how much of his time with Metis involved Athena in some way. A major problem with the whole mess that is Athena's backstory is that we're expected to take a lot on faith.

---

[removed]

---

Last edited by Sligneris on Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

The fact is we aren't told anything about Blackquill and Athena's interactions prior to her mother's murder anything we say is just conjecture.

Athena doesn't mention how they interacted, in fact she says she spent more time playing with the robots when her mother wasn't there and since her mother was also teaching Simon, why should we assume he has more time to spend on Athena than her? First Athena mentions him is that she hears his heart crying out in prison. It's possible she didn't even know his name properly he was just "Mum's student" after all.

So you go to someone's house for tutoring and you see their little sister/daughter watching TV. Do you form a bond with that person or do you get on with your lesson and learn from your tutor.

There's no reason to believe he stayed there, he might have heard about her via his sister and requested tutelage but there's no reason to believe he interacted with Athena in any meaningful way.

As for his die-hard defence of Athena? No I don't buy it either. I might not believe the little girl is capable of murder and I would certainly try and take her safely to the authorities but if I found a bloody little girl I have nearly no connection to with the corpse of her mother and they started accusing her of it I might speak up and say I don't think she did it, but I'd certainly not TAKE THE DEATH SENTENCE in her place.

---

[removed]

---

Last edited by Sligneris on Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Going to great lengths? Okay. Going to the ultimate length? That... I have some trouble believing.


You're saying "It's obvious that they were close! Just look at how they acted!" And that's exactly what the problem is; the game takes the motives behind their actions for granted, without ever bothering to actually substantiate them.

---

If it's mentioned somewhere in the game, bring it forth, because I recall nothing of it. Knowing how her headphones work does not mean anything. Using the same analogy before.

You go to your tutor's house and you see the little girl wearing some unusual headset and ask your tutor about it because it piques your curiosity. You tutor explains the headsets. Simple.

As for the rest of it? It's poorly written, like most things surrounding Athena, she literally only mentions him during the trial back then nothing before.

Like I said it's all just speculation, there isn't enough information. As such the whole 'sacrifice' comes over amazingly unrealistic.

---

[removed]

---

Last edited by Sligneris on Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:54 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Here's what's mentioned:
Unfortunately, all of this is from Athena's perspective, which is hardly a good base for determining character relationships, seeing how she was just a sheltered 11-year-old girl at the time.

---

I'm not saying he doesn't care, I'm saying there's insufficient evidence to justify his actions in game which matches the rest of the writing around Athena as in very little is ever explained about her and they just leave it up to us to buy their terrible excuses for her character traits.

It's a folly to say otherwise, a throwaway line from Simon about "I remember how you used to X as a child" would have been more evidence to show he spent time with her but no there's literally nothing really to indicate they spent any meaningful time together.

And since we aren't shown anything of their relationship beforehand but he is willing to sacrifice everything for her without any known justifying reason it DOES make her seem a bit more of a Mary Sue to me I'm afraid.

---

Aw come on Slig you were keeping up a good momentum
If the "obvious" answer leads to so many interpretations, it in turn suggests either the execution is sloppy or the writers intended it to be left open. Granted, the games have always done the latter - focusing on the core aspects of the mystery behind the case rather than the lives involved - so GS5 is simply following tradition. However, the execution is still sloppily done if an answer confuses the questions more than the questions themselves had done. Future material for obvious incoming sequel

There's only so much to fit into a person in one game, anyway. Phoenix wasn't the epitome of justice we now see him as back in his first game. He was just helping out his childhood buddies. The ones who got more development than he did were the secondary main characters, Maya and Edgeworth.

There's not much to develop about Phoenix by this game, but plenty to develop about the ones he works with. This game just happened to become Athena's story narrated by Phoenix (and Apollo and herself to a smaller extent).

Man, being a defense attorney in this universe is hard. Not only do you have to face nigh impossible odds in trials, but you have to narrate other people's stories at the same time. Well, it's not like Phoenix has anything better to do, right?

---

[removed]

---

Last edited by Sligneris on Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Let me give you an example.

Athena once mentioned Blackquill used to be "straight and true" back when she was a child, at a time when she believed robots and people were synonymous.

Therefore, she may have been interested in Blackquill because she believed he was an android.

Upon realizing that he wasn't, she changed her mind.

I have no direct evidence for this wild theory, but the logic makes sense, ya know?

---

[removed]

---

Last edited by Sligneris on Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

You'd think if she was so persistent on saving him, she would at least find out what date his execution was, and wouldn't just leave him to die.


Demanding parents can also help you ignore logistics! Especially if your father is a legendary prosecutor who has been undefeated for multiple decades. While we never see Manfred pay any attention to Franzy, he never has any reason to; the only times we see Franzy are when she's already been an established prosecutor for 5+ years, and when she's about to debut as a prosecutor. While there isn't direct proof, her relationship with Edgey, her background, and Manfred's character all heavily imply it. For Nick helping Athena... well, I guess it's possible, but it doesn't make much sense. First, why would Nick help this random girl? And second, why would European universities listen to an attorney who's been disbarred due to forgery?


If you tell a law school "My father is Manfred von Karma!", you might be able to get in. If you tell them, "My friend is gonna get executed in a few years!"... probably not.

---

[removed]

---

Last edited by Sligneris on Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

We're not back debating Athena's progress again are we? Like I've said before !motivation is nice but its not enough to guarantee and achieve everything Athena does in a short time. There's no guarantee Phoenix helped her simply that he inspired her, see the analogy I already made earlier in that post you overloked.

As for the claim Manfred wasn't teaching his daughter? Turnabout Reminiscence from AAI has him taking his daughter to court and assigning her on an investigation while she is still young as training for her, That's enough evidence to show he at least spent some time training her we can assume the rest since we've seen it in practice.

Franziska gets by a lot of gates because her father is THE expert prosecutor perfectly capable of home schooling his children for the job. Doubly so if he wants to pass on his doctrine to someone. Consider Themis legal academy, would Manfred want someone like Constance Court influencing his pupils with their Truce philosophy? *karma snap* It would not be perfection.

---

Uhm, can someone enlighten me about why that is something to discuss? Appearently they both cared very much about each other (and yes, I know she didn't even know his execution date, but that's not the point I'm trying to make right now), so obviously you'd think they have spent enough time around each other to form some kind of bond. No, there is no evidence, and no, they don't say excactly under which circumstances their relationship formed, but why do we need evidence for everything going on, and why do they have to tell us everything straight out? Is it that hard just filling out the blanks and make conclusions by oneself? Realistic or far-fetched, bad writing and Mary Sue-ish traits or not; in that particular case I'd say that the fact that they did what they did is proof enough that they cared enough to do it. Otherwise we might as well say (with reservation for possible errors): Why did Edgeworth fly all the way back to the states/Japan just because Larry said Phoenix was in the hospital? Edgeworth never said he cared that much about Phoenix's well-being. Why did Franziska spend all night with the locks? There's no proof that she thought that was of any importance. Kristoph never told us why he killed Shadi, so we can't assume he did it because of his hurt pride.

---

I think you've got that backwards. The game keeps telling us how close they are, yet their interactions are kept to a bare minimum, which leaves us wondering more about their relationship. It would have felt more natural if Athena had been trying to save him from day 1, and if they'd been talking a bit more about the good ol' days.

It's sort of like Twilight where that girl says "why can't you see how perfectly happy I am?" in a voice utterly devoid of emotion and with an expression of a poker player.

---

[removed]

---

Last edited by Sligneris on Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Once again Sligneris you ditch old ongoing arguments just to jump onto a new one

Thane has a point you are just missing it. The acting is wooden but the writing says she is happy so you have trouble believing it, it's metaphorical.

The actions imply they are close but there isn't any interaction or justification for it which make it believable.

Best way to look at it is to consider an outsider's point of view, someone who doesn't know how it ends.

We have a person studying under a psychology professor.

We know there is a child of the psychology professor who is resentful of the professor but lives there.

We know the student and professor have talked about the child's medical issues.

So if the child was found in a compromising position having seemingly murdered of the professor, would the student frame themselves for the murder in place of the child knowing it would incur the death sentence?

---

[removed]

---

Last edited by Sligneris on Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.

*sigh* Sligneris we've been over this I don't HATE Athena. I think she's quirky and quite fun and positive, I'm a fan of hot-blooded go-getters hence my love of Bobby Fulbright and Gumshoe. It's just I don't think she's believable or especially well explained so please stop bringing out the "You just don't WANT to see the truth" argument.

Also you spelled her name Atgena twice now, normally I don't bring mispellings up but since it's the same is that intentional with some meaning ?



How do we know that they interacted?
So far Rubia has told me she described him as "straight and true", that's it. That doesn't really tell us much about their interaction other than Athena thinks favourably of Simon...not vice versa which is the important thing here as you are trying to convince me Simon's sacrifice was believable and made sense. Even then "straight and true" is not "the best guy in the world, I'd take a bullet for him" so even if if it was being said by Simon about Athena I wouldn't believe it's enough. I'm not intentionally leaving out emotions and relationships, I actually can't really think of anything they really said about each other, we aren't given much if anything to go on with their interactions pre-prison to believe they interacted in any meaningful way.

As for your example about Miles, we know he admired his father enough to want to follow in his footsteps. We know that it tormented him with guilt for years later into his adult life and nightmares to the point where he eventually tried 'suicide by court' from the burden.

There's plenty emotional evidence to go on there.

The writers were so intent on keeping the big Athena-Simon connection hushed and ambiguous they didn't develop any real connection between them in the cases beforehand. They just play off as courtroom rivals with them saying various mean-things to each other across the room. This would be fine! In fact it's critically important to keep the connection secret so that the reveal is good but they didn't develop it enough once it was out to justify it.

Here's how it could have been solved. With one little heartwarming scene.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So post-trial or even in the break between clearing Athena's name and questioning the final witness. Everyone is out in the corridor.

Phoenix: "Hey Blackquill, I get that you are a good guy and all but why go to such lengths for Athena back then? You were going to throw away everything!"

Athena *comical tears* :"Awww...you meanie"

Phoenix would stammer comedically for a moment: "I-I was just curious! (Well someone has to ask the hard questions!)"

Blackquill: No...It's alright Wright-dono, the truth should be made clear. The truth is, Metis-san was really busy with her work and teaching me all the time. I felt guilty seeing little Athena left alone with the robots while we worked...
*insert heartwarming scene here*

Athena: I remember that...everyone at the Space Centre was so busy with their day to day lives I just blended in like one of the robots (HINTING AT ANDROID!THENA'S TRUE NATURE).

Apollo *thinking pose*: Hmm it has been bothering me that no one else other than Aura seemed to mention you much when you must have been living there a while. They'd have seen you every day.

Athena: It was lonely, but at the end of every day you'd come play with me a bit so that mother could focus on her work. I used to think you were actually another Robot mother had made to make me happy. You were the best memory I had of that place...you were so kind.

(Optional bit depending on whether they wanted to make her mother's love clear yet)
Blackquill: *Shakes his head* It's not exactly like that Athena-chan, at first.......it was your mother's idea.

Athena: What?! *shocked*

Blackquill: Your mother was concerned and guilty about not being able to spend much time with you, between balancing her work and my tutelage she asked me to take care of you a bit each day. At first I thought it was quite the tedious chore, babysitting, but.....I grew...fond of our time together at the end of the lessons. Eventually the lessons became the chore and the real reason I went to the space station...was for you.

*reminiscence music stops Athena is in tears*
Phoenix: That explains a lot....

-------------------------------------------------

That would have done it, ONE scene. It's not much to ask for, and it would let them throw in one of those adorable little photos post credits or something!

Blackquill: Here Athena-chan....I kept this while I was in prison...it reminded me what I was doing all this for.

*Illustration of little Athena hugging and uncomfortable-looking Blackquill between Ponco and Clonco while they pose for a photo*

And now it feels somewhat anti-climactic to talk about this:



I don't know, give me an example surely it's your job to provide the comparisons for your case.

---

[removed]

---

Last edited by Sligneris on Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Why even post this?

---

It isn't a question of whether Simon and Athena interacted. It's whether they interacted to the point where they built up a bond strong enough for Simon to throw away his freedom and his life for her. And, like Pierre said, I don't think they did that.


It's not, but every example in AA I can think of involves saving a family member, in which case a compelling motive for the action is provided just from that.


No ad hominem, kthx.

Also you've got this backwards. We don't look for flaws in her character and the story because we dislike Athena; we dislike Athena because we noticed so many flaws in her character and story.


I think he was making a joke xP

---

I know he was trying to keep it light, but when I try and keep stuff light in a debate I actually post the meaningful reply after the joke.

---

[removed]

---

Last edited by Sligneris on Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sidestepping an argument because "oh you weren't complaining about that originally" is not a valid reason to avoid an argument.

"So I explained earlier about your problems" - We've discussed this round and round in loops. You say our complaints are unjustified because X > We counterpoint with arguments of our own > You ignore them and later claim you explained these problems earlier and our complaints are unjustified > Loop. Either get an argument or agree to let us be, no one is forcing you to agree with us.

Then you ASK US to keep our opinions of Athena....here? Are we not allowed our opinions? It might make you unhappy but that's how the world is Slig, TOLERANCE for other people's beliefs and opinions. We respect how others feel and their right to feel that way. Even then this is hardly the most offensive belief in the world.

I think the problem is you just ain't interested in discussion enough to continue, but you don't like seeing us joke about Athena being an android and occasionally disapproving of her. I'll remind you that you mini-necro'd this thread just to start discussion on the matter. Then when you realise we've got good reasons for this you can't counteract you turn a blind eye and just say "Don't do it again".

If you have a problem with people talking about Athena, you can discuss it here and try and change our minds but you can't 'confine' it here should you fail to convince us.

---

[removed]

---

Last edited by Sligneris on Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Don't take this badly but I think you really need to lighten up. You're seeing people take the piss out of Athena and seem to almost be taking that as a personal attack. Also, I've only seen people bad-mouthing her in maybe 3 threads at the most so I don't think this "hatred" is as widespread as you believe.

Disclaimer: I don't have an opinion on Athena other than "meh", so don't think I'm a hater ;)

---

I'm going to look up....approximately 5 or 6 posts and see Bad Player making a multi-point counter-argument regarding Simon's feelings for Athena being unclear. At 8 posts you have my multi-pointed counter-argument on the same matter, with an additional point that I don't actually HATE Athena.

The next post from you is a light-hearted joke. The one after that acknowledges previous concerns and ends with you saying "Well Athena and Simon's relationship wasn't questioned before I don't see why it needs addressed now, you folks clearly just want to hate Athena".

What counterpoints are there here to acknowledge? You blanked on our current arguments, backtracked to previous arguments and restated that you think we are just determined to hate Athena. When in my last post I said I didn't hate her I just felt she went unexplained. BP himself has said he'd have no qualms with Athena so long as she was a little older.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________

Further back on the same page, we were discussing whether Athena's 'drive' was enough to get her through presumably a law academy or university. You raised the point Phoenix could have helped her and that a 'drive' to save a friend is the same as someone who has pushy parents to motivate them. BP highlighted the fact that Manfred's influence is substantially more than just a pushy parent and I said that there's no indication that Phoenix had actually helped Athena with influence, it's merely said he inspired her (which is also questionable as she claims Simon was her 'drive'). BP also brought up the fact Phoenix was disbarred at the time so his influence was probably minimal outside his actual friends.

Your response to BP was this:



That proper response never came.

GoingforMiles then stepped in and raised a different question and when the discussion moved on you did as well and we never went back to address those previous points about Athena's stunning progress that you claimed you did.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________

It gets worse farther back with you actually saying in regards to a nudge about a large lengthy argument (after a decent proper lengthy reply you gave to BP):

You said on Sunday.

We talk about some other things about whether Athena feels emotions that the people themselves aren't aware of. Eventually late on that Monday I prod you for a reply to my big post.

Two days later I double post to prod you again but you still don't reply, that's cool you might be preoccupied fair enough.

On the Saturday, almost a week after you come back and offer a comment on the "Unconscious emotions" and whether or not her hearing is a superpower or not. I prod you for a reply and you ask whether I'm talking about the "Unconscious emotion thing" and I remind you of the bigger post.

You say:



Once more not addressing my points as promised.

__________________________________________________________________-

I mean you might not be a bad debater but at least do me the credit of answering me when we're discussing. Moving on to another topic when someone feels cornered is something I see happen a lot, but I don't mind folks walking away to respect their differences. However here you are asking us to stop our discussion and just be silent across the entire forum except here.

Does it occur to you that some of might be annoyed just when we see people saying Athena is a GOOD character? The same way you get annoyed when people say she's bad?

I realise it might sound harsh, but I really...REALLY dislike it when people say I don't put effort in because I'm ignoring their counterarguments.

Look man there's nothing wrong with liking Athena, by all means I like her in bits too but I feel a lot of the complaints about her are legitimate and justified. I really enjoyed AA5 as a whole even if Athena both added and subtracted to the experience. Critical thinking is all about seeing both sides of an argument, just understand why we have problems with Athena, there's nothing to say you can't like her anyway.

---

I don't know? I just wanted to explain everything that was unclear, but as you said, it was nothing but conjecture. But to me, that conjecture worked, as it was actually quite logical explanation. To others, maybe not, I suppose. I guess I messed up.

...Well, there is a difference between trying to enjoy something other people don't, and not enjoying something while complaining about something other people enjoy and still want to enjoy. At least, to me.

Nah, nevermind. I am a bad debater. Too emotional at that. So, yeah. No point in discussing it anymore, as I clearly do not have enough debating abilities (like wording arguments properly, even having proper arguments in the first place or keeping cool) to do so. ^^

---

Hey, now. Her story and background might not be that solid, certainly, but I wouldn't go so far and say she's not.

All her odd quirks and skills aside, I see the biggest complaint about her is her lack of purpose being written in. On the contrary, she had a specific purpose in the game - aside from putting flashy lights on screen - one that Apollo himself lacked: a secondary goal. She's the self-proclaimed "Revolutionnaire", commenting several times in case 3 about fixing the court system and blah blah blah stupid dark age.

It's not a strong motivation and easily comes off as only for show, but it's shown to be stronger than "I need to help out this guy. It's why I became a lawyer." No, missy, you became a lawyer because you wanted to do much more than just help out ONE guy. If Blackquill was all that mattered, she could have looked for help from a still-instated defense attorney hey guys remember that one big round mustached fellow he's no longer so busy and rallied for a re-trial. Whether or not Aura would want to help doesn't matter; she wouldn't be so desperate to do something yet seven years ago.

We never learned why Apollo became a lawyer in the first place. Maybe there's not much to tell; he was simply inspired by Phoenix Wright, legendary attorney. Or, maybe there IS something else to tell, and the scenario team hasn't quite worked it out yet. Either way, it's left somewhere in the idea waiting lounge.

Maybe Athena being around could help develop Apollo's character more easily, who knows? Trucy is cute, but she's not the best model for Apollo being a good senpai.

I can see potential for this girl. She will continue to fumble, but she won't have to worry about either Blackquill by now. She will continue to entrance/annoy fans with her overemotional states. And, she will continue poking her head in places where she shouldn't. What matters is, she's found herself some good company. She can fit into the role of naive rookie in place of someone with only a year more experience than her, and a boss who never seems to work but somehow manages to pay that rent. So that's where the gambling, er prize, money went And, she and Pearl make good older sisters to Trucy. Now there's something sweet to cherish.

Now if only it could be confirmed that Widget has Wi-fi...

Aw, Slig. You just need more practice being in those situations. It's all part of being a debater.
inb4 this thread loses its momentum

---