Re: Super Smash Bros. for Wii U/3DS
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Pierre wrote:
Hijikata Tōshirō wrote:
Pierre wrote:
I'm disappointed Danny, after all that talk about "only one proper way to play" you go and choose a non-Omega stage. 
Im sorry i kept forgetting to press omega xD
Btw nice suicides xD
Yeah my biggest weakness is my ability to at any point throw a match horrendously.
After accidentally offing myself at 0-10% I figured fresh starts were in order.
Nothing wrong with that seeing as in I do the same thing when I play as Shulk and I over shoot his side B and fall down to my death
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Pierre wrote:
For me it's Little Mac's Side B that always sends me humiliatingly falling to my doom. Same with Fox/Falco's. However I don't really feel their side B's are worth using.
It makes it easier to fall to your doom as well when playing characters like that when you play on Omega stages but its just all about timing the moving and calculating the distance of the attack.
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Hijikata Tōshirō wrote:
Pierre wrote:
For me it's Little Mac's Side B that always sends me humiliatingly falling to my doom. Same with Fox/Falco's. However I don't really feel their side B's are worth using.
It makes it easier to fall to your doom as well when playing characters like that when you play on Omega stages but its just all about timing the moving and calculating the distance of the attack.
Mmmhmm I mean it's possible to trigger Mac's punch earlier which reduces the distance somewhat so I know it can be used well. My friend seems to have it down pretty well.
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Pierre wrote:
Hijikata Tōshirō wrote:
Pierre wrote:
For me it's Little Mac's Side B that always sends me humiliatingly falling to my doom. Same with Fox/Falco's. However I don't really feel their side B's are worth using.
It makes it easier to fall to your doom as well when playing characters like that when you play on Omega stages but its just all about timing the moving and calculating the distance of the attack.
Mmmhmm I mean it's possible to trigger Mac's punch earlier which reduces the distance somewhat so I know it can be used well. My friend seems to have it down pretty well.
I have a friend who is actually really good with little mac but he sometimes has the problem of over shooting some attacks.
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General Luigi wrote:
I see Mr. Hijikata's not the only one who's fond of the "Omega only, no items" system. The lag took some getting used to (not that I'm blaming any defeats of mine on it), but I still had fun. Next time, though, I'd like to mix it up some more. My favorite kind of fight is one in which I can take advantage of more than just my skill with whichever character I use.
The problem with the way you like to play and i don't me you but other people I have faced online like to just sit back and use items to gain their victories and I had alot of my kills stolen because of that
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For me, the main appeal of items and non-Omega stages is their ability to test my improvisational skills. In Brawl, I would even make my character random (though I'll probably hold off on that here until the Wii U tournament's over). I feel the NIFOFD doctrine just doesn't sufficiently test a player's ability to adapt. There are unpredictable elements in any fight, but by trying to minimize them, players emphasize one skillset at the expense of another. Go too far in attempting to remove luck from the equation and diminishing returns kick in with regards to the skill tradeoff. Essentially, as the amount of randomness approaches zero, the ratio of testing of controlled combat skill gained to testing of improvisational skill lost also approaches zero. However, since matches with items and non-Omega stages still involve a significant amount of skill on the player's part, diminishing returns from higher randomness are either absent or less significant.
My preference for round robin tournaments also stems from the fact that nothing can completely remove luck from the equation. Sudden lag can give your opponent more time to react (I know it slows down the opponent, too, but I'm referring to the amount of time the players have to think), a cat suddenly hopping up onto your lap can screw up an attack you had lined up (before you ask, Pierre, that didn't have anything to do with any of my defeats; Her Majesty the Empress remained curled up in the chair nest to mine from the moment I joined you to the moment you left), a faulty controller can prevent the game from responding properly to your actions (one of my older controllers that I got rid of years ago didn't respond properly to me pointing the control stick down), and so on. However, with both NIFOFD rules and my preferred rules, the key is looking at the big picture, not individual fights. With single elimination, one bout of bad luck can ruin you. With double elimination, you just need two misfortunes. As the number of fights you are in increases, though, the chance of luck affecting your overall score approaches zero--hence my fondness of round robin, which ensures every player has many fights.
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Still thanks for the matches you were great fun. Your playstyle seems really defensive and I've never seen anyone play Olimar before so it was real interesting. He messes up my Homing Attack really well because apparently the pikmin are viable targets as well so it really threw me off. It was really difficult to approach you at times.
For future references is there any items you'd like turned off at all or are you good with them all? I like to turn off the big (50%+) healing items. Seen fairy bottles spawn immediately in front of my friend twice in one life when he was over 100%. I'd had enough of that then.
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But sometimes that pokeball/hammer/whatever just hops in your lap or in front of your opponent. Nothing you can do about it and nothing you can do to adapt to it. You're immediately put in an advantage or disadvantage, which is unfair in my opinion.
Now that doesn't mean it's not FUN. I love the chaos items bring with them. But if you're purely talking about how people should play matches in order to measure skill then no items is the way to go.
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The only real advantage I see to removing luck from the equation is that it tests a player's controlled combat skills more efficiently. I don't feel that's an acceptable tradeoff, though, as it means only one skillset is being tested when there's more to being good at Smash than simply being great in NIFOFD conditions.
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I disagree on the items though, but that is mainly because some of them are way overpowered or game-changing. Some have a fair risk vs reward going on: the home run bat kills instantaneously, but the start-up is ridiculous. bombs can do big damage, but you can also get hit by it yourself. This sort of thing is fine.
But if you get a masterball, golden hammer or a the beetle that lifts you up then you a significant change presents itself. For pretty much none risk you gain a HUGE advantage. Fun and/or chaotic? Yes. Fair and/or a measure of skill? No.
That's why I like the smash ball a lot. You can't get it instantly and moves around meaning players get an even chance of grabbing it OR you can target players who are after the ball. This adds depth and strategy to the game, while being fair about it. You can choose what your response is instead of: 1 I'm fucked or 2: You're fucked.
Items can add something in terms of measuring the skill. But currently some items are just too overpowered and obtaining them is through complete luck. I see where you're coming from GL, but I just can't seem to agree with what you're saying.
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They are playing on the same console whereas I'm playing online elsewhere. The match starts and they are both Ganondorf to my Shulk at the Gaur Plains (my choice). Instantly I'm a little suspicious. They ain't above teaming up and picking the same character for the lols. So sure enough they avoid each other and come for me. I get beat down pretty bad but one of them throws his lives while he fails to manouver around the stage and the other is left with 2 lives while I'm on 1 life and at 100% damage. I fight hard and overcome his life advantage to pull through.
Afterwards his salt was delicious. Claimed I spammed counter when I only used it like...6 times in a 8 minute match.
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General Luigi wrote:
Master Balls sometimes contain Goldeen. The Golden Hammer has a chance of being harmless (not to mention it hinders your jumping ability and renders you vulnerable to ranged attacks and attacks from below). The Beetle can be reflected back at you (as I once learned the hard way in the 3DS version). All three of the aforementioned can be dodged.
Yup, which means even more variables. Imagine risking a lot of damage to get that hammer. When you finally get it the head pops off. The enemy easily gets a free kill on you. If the hammer works you'll get an easy kill on them. There are some ways around it, but this all sure sounds a lot more like luck instead of skill to me.
Pierre wrote:
Just had a grand triumph over my friends.
They are playing on the same console whereas I'm playing online elsewhere. The match starts and they are both Ganondorf to my Shulk at the Gaur Plains (my choice). Instantly I'm a little suspicious. They ain't above teaming up and picking the same character for the lols. So sure enough they avoid each other and come for me. I get beat down pretty bad but one of them throws his lives while he fails to manouver around the stage and the other is left with 2 lives while I'm on 1 life and at 100% damage. I fight hard and overcome his life advantage to pull through.
Afterwards his salt was delicious. Claimed I spammed counter when I only used it like...6 times in a 8 minute match.
They are playing on the same console whereas I'm playing online elsewhere. The match starts and they are both Ganondorf to my Shulk at the Gaur Plains (my choice). Instantly I'm a little suspicious. They ain't above teaming up and picking the same character for the lols. So sure enough they avoid each other and come for me. I get beat down pretty bad but one of them throws his lives while he fails to manouver around the stage and the other is left with 2 lives while I'm on 1 life and at 100% damage. I fight hard and overcome his life advantage to pull through.
Afterwards his salt was delicious. Claimed I spammed counter when I only used it like...6 times in a 8 minute match.
Nice. And they shouldn't be complaining about the counter. It's a legit move with its strengths and weaknesses so a good player should be able to punish another player who spams the counter. This move improves when multiple enemies are attacking you though, since you are invincible during the move and any hit will result in a punish.
Ergo if they were playing fair and not ganging up on you the counter definitely shouldn't be as effective
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Quote:
Nice. And they shouldn't be complaining about the counter. It's a legit move with its strengths and weaknesses so a good player should be able to punish another player who spams the counter. This move improves when multiple enemies are attacking you though, since you are invincible during the move and any hit will result in a punish.
Ergo if they were playing fair and not ganging up on you the counter definitely shouldn't be as effective
Ergo if they were playing fair and not ganging up on you the counter definitely shouldn't be as effective
That's what I said! I practically taught him how to efficiently deal with counters (he had a real anti-grab mentality before) and I didn't overly use it anyway. He complains that the boss killed him in the end but it was his call to approach the boss. Metal Face on the Xenoblade stage is more of an inconvenience than a threat since he'll only really attack you if approached.
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Sjibbey wrote:
But if you get a masterball, golden hammer or a the beetle that lifts you up then you a significant change presents itself. For pretty much none risk you gain a HUGE advantage. Fun and/or chaotic? Yes. Fair and/or a measure of skill? No.
Sjibbey wrote:
Yup, which means even more variables. Imagine risking a lot of damage to get that hammer. When you finally get it the head pops off. The enemy easily gets a free kill on you. If the hammer works you'll get an easy kill on them. There are some ways around it, but this all sure sounds a lot more like luck instead of skill to me.
So which is it?
Also, as I pointed out, the skill is your ability to respond well to bad luck (or good luck), not luck itself.
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Re: Super Smash Bros. for Wii U/3DS
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I stand by my claim that items should be on in the tournament, though; being able to respond well to changes in the flow of battle is one of multiple skills that can contribute to victory. It's the ability to make the best out of a bad situation and the ability to use a good situation to your advantage. It's the ability to innovate and use more than just your character. I readily acknowledge that the wrong item in the wrong hands at the wrong time can deprive you of a victory you were previously almost guaranteed. I'm not looking at individual battles, though. An individual battle is never enough to measure a player's skill in any area, especially the improvisational skill necessary to respond to items and dynamic stages. I would have to be a fool to insist on a single elimination or even double elimination tournament with items on. That is why I favor a round robin tournament. The greater the number of battles, the less likely you are to be screwed over by multiple incidents of bad luck.
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dimentiorules wrote:
I honestly think that the game is more fun with items on, but is much more fair and balanced with items off. If you just wanna have fun, put them on. If you're having a competition to determine who's the better player, you should have them off. They should always be off in tournaments. By the way, what are your guys' mains in the smash bros. series? I never played the original, but my mains in Melee were Roy, Dr. Mario, and Mewtwo, my mains in Brawl were Toon Link, Kirby, and Snake, and my mains in smash 4 are Little Mac, Bowser, and Villager.
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General Luigi wrote:
Sjibbey wrote:
But if you get a masterball, golden hammer or a the beetle that lifts you up then you a significant change presents itself. For pretty much none risk you gain a HUGE advantage. Fun and/or chaotic? Yes. Fair and/or a measure of skill? No.
Sjibbey wrote:
Yup, which means even more variables. Imagine risking a lot of damage to get that hammer. When you finally get it the head pops off. The enemy easily gets a free kill on you. If the hammer works you'll get an easy kill on them. There are some ways around it, but this all sure sounds a lot more like luck instead of skill to me.
So which is it?
Also, as I pointed out, the skill is your ability to respond well to bad luck (or good luck), not luck itself.
No risk: the hammer spawns near you. Granted, I didn't take the option that the head could fall off into account when I said this.
Risky: the hammer spawns between or near your opponent.
But let's not pick on minor details here. In my opinion when you want to measure skill, or the best player, you'll have to have as little random factors around as possible. This ensures that players have anything but themselves to blame for their win or loss. Since items vary in strength and use (because they would be boring otherwise) with a random spawning location you're introducing factors which are determined by luck. No matter how good you are and how well you respond to this change, you'll be placed in a favorable or unfavorable position at the blink of an eye depending on what the game has in store for you.
Also saying: If you're good enough you can get around it wouldn't really work in either low and high level play. Low level players aren't good enough to get around the destructive item and high level players will do insane stuff with pretty much all items. If a high level player has a home-run bat to throw around... don't even think of reaching the ledge when you're thrown off.
Items are fun, but the fact that the items themselves are random and where they spawn is random results in adding lucky factors to the battle.
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I don't think I mained anyone in melée really but here goes:
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Smash4: Captain Falcon/Sonic/Snake (in my heart)
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Re: Super Smash Bros. for Wii U/3DS
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Sjibbey wrote:
What's wrong with Marth? He gives the phrase: 'just the tip' a whole different meaning! But seriously, you dislike him?
I have an intense dislike of toppest of the top tiers. Always been more of a "training over natural talent" guy so seeing folks who just buy virtue of their movesets and properties have an advantage rubs me the wrong way.
His move set is also pretty boring I think in such a fantastical fighter.
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Pierre wrote:
Sjibbey wrote:
What's wrong with Marth? He gives the phrase: 'just the tip' a whole different meaning! But seriously, you dislike him?
I have an intense dislike of toppest of the top tiers. Always been more of a "training over natural talent" guy so seeing folks who just buy virtue of their movesets and properties have an advantage rubs me the wrong way.
His move set is also pretty boring I think in such a fantastical fighter.
His moves are pretty straightforward, but I don't think he is considered top tier in the new smash (he was in melee though). He doesn't have projectiles or a neutral a combo move (his neutral a is probably garbage when you compare it to the rest of the cast), but he compensates that with his sideways special move.
His game heavily revolves around positioning. He has a pretty good range due his long sword and when you attack at your max range you deal a blow which gives more damage and smash potential. Marth is as good as the player using him and in my opinion a very good example of: training over natural talent.
But maybe that's just my personal bias talking since he's my favorite character for more than 12 years. I even decided to pick up Fire Emblem after playing him so much in Melee. I'm always drawn to characters who are easy to learn but hard to master.
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Haven't played enough 64 or Melee to get a particular 'main'
Brawl: Marth and Peach
3DS/Wii U: Marth, Peach, and Shulk
Spoiler: Best thing about playing as Shulk
Well? Are we going or what?
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Sjibbey wrote:
But let's not pick on minor details here. In my opinion when you want to measure skill, or the best player, you'll have to have as little random factors around as possible. This ensures that players have anything but themselves to blame for their win or loss. Since items vary in strength and use (because they would be boring otherwise) with a random spawning location you're introducing factors which are determined by luck. No matter how good you are and how well you respond to this change, you'll be placed in a favorable or unfavorable position at the blink of an eye depending on what the game has in store for you.
I get the impression you're still looking at this from the perspective of an individual battle. I have never argued for that approach. Unless one player is way out of his/her opponent's league, an individual battle will tell you very little about who is more skilled. Case in point: Pierre and I faced off multiple times a few days ago, yet depending on which battle(s) you looked at, your perception of who's better might change. As the number of battles increases, however, the effect of luck on a player's overall performance evens out. This, in turn, makes it easier to see which players are more skilled. As I've mentioned numerous times, this is why I favor a round robin tournament: it avoids the individual battle approach to determining who is the best.
Sjibbey wrote:
Also saying: If you're good enough you can get around it wouldn't really work in either low and high level play. Low level players aren't good enough to get around the destructive item and high level players will do insane stuff with pretty much all items. If a high level player has a home-run bat to throw around... don't even think of reaching the ledge when you're thrown off.
All the more reason to enable items, then, as it will enable skilled players to take advantage of their superior skills with the items in question. In a tournament, players aren't expected to hold back.
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Re: Super Smash Bros. for Wii U/3DS
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Pierre wrote:
Sjibbey wrote:
What's wrong with Marth? He gives the phrase: 'just the tip' a whole different meaning! But seriously, you dislike him?
I have an intense dislike of toppest of the top tiers. Always been more of a "training over natural talent" guy so seeing folks who just buy virtue of their movesets and properties have an advantage rubs me the wrong way.
His move set is also pretty boring I think in such a fantastical fighter.
Wait a minute, he's considered top tier?! I always sucked playing as him, I could never get his moveset down at all, mostly because I suck at knowing the right time to use his counter move. When I play as a character with a counter move, they might as well only have 3 special moves, as I can't for the life of me get the timing for the move right. I also found his guard breaker useless, as none of my friends ever blocked. I'm starting to think that I suck at Smash Bros., considering I once lost a match in Brawl while playing as Meta Knight against a friend who was playing as Link, and Meta Knight is pretty much an instant win ticket in Brawl.
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Re: Super Smash Bros. for Wii U/3DS
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Hijikata Tōshirō wrote:
Ugh i freaking hate items in smash! Every match I play some asshole keeps camping with items at the corner while ever one else is fight while they end up winning with items or a stupid smash ball >.>
Back in my Brawl days, one of my online taunts was "Get the camper!" If someone tried to hang back, I did my part to encourage everyone to gang up on him/her. Since we always did stock matches, campers usually got eliminated first.
Then again, I'm more of a one-on-one person, so camping rarely had a chance to become a problem for me.
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General Luigi wrote:
Hijikata Tōshirō wrote:
Ugh i freaking hate items in smash! Every match I play some asshole keeps camping with items at the corner while ever one else is fight while they end up winning with items or a stupid smash ball >.>
Back in my Brawl days, one of my online taunts was "Get the camper!" If someone tried to hang back, I did my part to encourage everyone to gang up on him/her. Since we always did stock matches, campers usually got eliminated first.
Then again, I'm more of a one-on-one person, so camping rarely had a chance to become a problem for me.
That's actually what i do with Megaman.
Mostly because a lot of hi's attacks don't work that well in close range, i only fight close range with him when i can use top spin.
Re: Super Smash Bros. for Wii U/3DS
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General Luigi wrote:
Sjibbey wrote:
But let's not pick on minor details here. In my opinion when you want to measure skill, or the best player, you'll have to have as little random factors around as possible. This ensures that players have anything but themselves to blame for their win or loss. Since items vary in strength and use (because they would be boring otherwise) with a random spawning location you're introducing factors which are determined by luck. No matter how good you are and how well you respond to this change, you'll be placed in a favorable or unfavorable position at the blink of an eye depending on what the game has in store for you.
I get the impression you're still looking at this from the perspective of an individual battle. I have never argued for that approach. Unless one player is way out of his/her opponent's league, an individual battle will tell you very little about who is more skilled. Case in point: Pierre and I faced off multiple times a few days ago, yet depending on which battle(s) you looked at, your perception of who's better might change. As the number of battles increases, however, the effect of luck on a player's overall performance evens out. This, in turn, makes it easier to see which players are more skilled. As I've mentioned numerous times, this is why I favor a round robin tournament: it avoids the individual battle approach to determining who is the best.
Well I think my reasoning holds up in individual and multiple battles. On average the luck of items should spread out like flipping a coin for heads and tails. But if you had 5 matches in total to determine the winner then it doesn't change a fact that a single match can be determined by a lucky item.
I think we've discussed this enough to know that we are not going to agree on this matter. It's not that I think you're completely wrong GL, but I still think my own reasoning is the better one.
dimentiorules wrote:
Wait a minute, he's considered top tier?! I always sucked playing as him, I could never get his moveset down at all, mostly because I suck at knowing the right time to use his counter move. When I play as a character with a counter move, they might as well only have 3 special moves, as I can't for the life of me get the timing for the move right. I also found his guard breaker useless, as none of my friends ever blocked. I'm starting to think that I suck at Smash Bros., considering I once lost a match in Brawl while playing as Meta Knight against a friend who was playing as Link, and Meta Knight is pretty much an instant win ticket in Brawl.
He definitely was in melee along with Fox and Falco, but in Brawl and probably Smash 4 he's considered mid-high tier. But tiers are definitely not a guaranteed win. I also sucked with Meta Knight in Brawl, which is the best character on paper in that game. It all depends on the players and how they use their character.
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Re: Super Smash Bros. for Wii U/3DS
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I also tried to make a Professor Layton themed custom stage, i got the shape i wanted right but it doesn't look right to me.
Re: Super Smash Bros. for Wii U/3DS
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Klonoahedgehog wrote:
I've unlocked a good chunk of characters already and one stage.
I also tried to make a Professor Layton themed custom stage, i got the shape i wanted right but it doesn't look right to me.
I also tried to make a Professor Layton themed custom stage, i got the shape i wanted right but it doesn't look right to me.
Define "Professor Layton-themed" for me?
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