Well, for me, relatability is believability. What do I mean by that? Y'see, our perception of reality depends on our relationship with it. For example, one person might view the world as good, while another might view it as bad, and this is just to say the very least. The important thing is, these differences are experiential. So, if we're trying to set realism as an objective standard (because we wouldn't be discussing it in the first place if we thought it was purely subjective and therefore incompatible with any attempts of connecting different standpoints/viewpoints into something we could share as objective, now would we?), then how can we decide that something is or isn't realistic in absence of a personal, collective and all-encompassing experience of all existence/creation? Without such a good overview (which I believe to be a possible but extremely rare achievement due to its sheer difficulty), having only a few straws in a sea of perspectives per person doesn't help establishing anything but a multitude of subjective (and mostly unwritten) definitions of realism based on a personal experience of what one even thinks reality is, which then often translates into major misunderstandings in discussions.

With that out of the way, here's my point: video games in total can be considered unrealistic for a variety of reasons, but once we take that as a given, we can see how truly similar they are with everything else. Even if we can't agree on it like I described in the previous paragraph, here's how I view it: even if one can't exactly find a fundamentally working system of megalomaniacally shouting and possibly stereotypical lawyers anywhere on planet Earth, it's the archetypes that we all hold within ourselves, as well as the need to speak out as loud as possible in thirst for justice, which make the AA universe real, relatable and believable.

Also, CatMuto, thank you for inspiring me to write my previous post - y'know, the one with that last sentence you understood so well. In fact, pondering the human psyche is probably the best thing I can do whenever I can't fail noticing someone as (needlessly?) pissed off as you show you are through your own comments.

It was pointless. Not to mention that Lana hiding the picture of dead Neil in the book when she had no-YOU CAME ACROSS THIS SCENE AND DECIDED TO TAKE A MOTHERFUCKING PICTURE BEFORE TAKING SHARDS OF A JAR THAT YOU THOUGHT HAD SOMETHING INCRIMINATING YOUR SISTER ON IT (WHICH IS IMPOSSIBLE, THE FUCKING THING BROKE AND YOU COULDN'T SEE), IGNORING THE FACT THAT YOU CAME ACROSS A SCENE OF A KNOWN MURDERER AND YOUR SISTER AND A DEAD GUY AND THINK IT WAS YOUR SISTER, THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU, LANA-...... *cough* when she had no icentive to allow Phoenix to get close to the case and potentially solve it. Especially since she was sooooooooooooooooooooo convinced that her sister had ACTUALLY killed a man.



Basically, it boils down to: personal opinion. Our relationship with how we see the world is based on personal experience, so no matter what, if we are forced to play as a character who is not an exact copy of us in-game, we won't relate/believe the in-game world, period.

Which would mean all Silent Protagonists, like Mario, Link, etc, are failures cause they don't have our background, so even if they're mute, we still don't actually think their subconscious reactions are based on what WE would do. (I personally never saw silent protagonists as the person I'm supposed to substitute myself with, but that's a different matter)



I have damn good reason to be pissed off with the games. None of them have improved remotely in story-telling, they didn't become more difficult and in fact, all plot twists are still either A) way too freaking obvious from the get-go, so all potential suspense or surprise is immediately ruined or B) comes right the fuck out of nowhere, which not good, either. Is it really that horrible to demand a game based on law to take itself at least somewhat seriously or to improve themselves?

C-A

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For a person who seems to like apparently nothing in Ace Attorney, you sure do take it remarkably seriously. I have never seen someone so mad at video games before.

Also, you're so close to calling Ace Attorney a lawyer simulator. So very close.

CatMuto, I think you've got the wrong series (don't take what I say the wrong way, though).

Ace Attorney doesn't take itself seriously (besides character backstories and that) and that's what I like about it. The franchise is known for being light-hearted and having lots of humour, despite being about murder. It doesn't even take the law seriously, since it's somewhat of a parody of the Japanese legal system to begin with. I think the closest the localisation comes to fitting the law is when the Judge mentions to Frank Sahwit that his incorrect testimonies are "harming his credibility" and when Maya actually gets sent out for contempt of court in 1-4.

I watch Law and Order if it's on. I like it. But honestly, I'd love Ace Attorney a lot less if it was like Law and Order and not the way it is right now. Maybe it's just because I've been playing it for so long but regardless, it's what makes it so unique.

It's fine to give criticism. But it honestly sounds like you hate Ace Attorney at times. Or at least dislike it

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Well, as hard as this might be to comprehend for some people, it's quite possible (and normal) to like some aspects of a thing while not liking other aspects of it. So of course the increased version of this - loving some aspects and hating others - is also very possible. Sometimes, there can be a lot of both, and whether the thing still works for you or not depends entirely on which side overweighs the other. Sometimes it can be a near even balance, and that's when it gets really hard for you to make up your mind about it.
For me, throughout the Ace Attorney games, the good does outweigh the bad - but it's still about 60/40 for me, the things that are bad can really ruin the mood for me. Of course, it gets a lot better by the fact that you can choose (and skip) cases from the second playthrough on, so one can avoid the worst offenders. Unfortunately in my case, some of the things I hate most happen to take place in my favorite cases, so... yeah. It's an ongoing hatelove for me with this series. ;)

I'm fully aware of that and never said it wasn't possible or normal. There's cases/stuff in the series I dislike. All I was saying was being super serious isn't what the series is meant to be, in my opinion.

And it's fine to dislike stuff in the series. I dislike how 1-2 ended, 2-3 in general, etc. That's all good. All I'm thinking is maybe CatMuto can talk about stuff she dislikes/disagrees with without getting a bit too mad?

It's not my place, I know. I was just under the impression this was a place of reason and tranquility.

No offense to anyone, of course

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I'm not CatMuto and don't know why she talks the way she does, but from what I've seen of her, I think that's her normal speech pattern and not reduced to this topic. So while it may look like she's getting unhumanly mad about these games, I don't think that's the case. She just has a very, shall we say, strong way of expressing herself.
And I wasn't directing that little piece of snark at you so much as to Quixote, who appears to have "overlooked" my post completely so he could continue to berate people for their opinions.

That's possible. Fair enough. As said, no offense to her. And I seem to have taken this topic in a totally different direction, too Apologies for that, guys.

Without even saying a word about AA6, no less

I'm looking forward to it, also. Hoping the main cast appear in the game in some form, despite the whole new country thing that AA6 has going on.

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I dunno, maybe you'll find an answer IN THE SAME GODDAMN PLACE WHERE WE DISCUSSED THIS MORE THAN POLITICIANS DISCUSS ACTUAL POLITICS WHILE YOU GO BACK TO THINKING THAT VGR IS A LEGITIMATE SOURCE.

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If I recall correctly, CatMuto said that the only joy she gets from the series is the gay shipping, but I might be wrong here... I am curious, though, what she DOES like about the series, because I can't think of anything, and I've been here (sometimes lurking, sometimes not) for some time!

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But the humor is a mixture of not-funny and horribly dated memes that actually become boring. The stepladder/ladder joke, the "This is Madness!" "No, Maya, that's SPARDA", saying "This case has more holes than the movie The Grid" (or Revelations?), it's just... it's not funny. Look at YGO the Abridged Series. I find some of the jokes pretty funny, especially when they make fun of how duel monsters was made really the ONLY thing in the anime, including calling it a children's card game or making fun of mistakes the animators made, like giving Kaiba a long nose or making Tristan black. The rest of the jokes are references that are such hit and misses, they could end up breaking or making an episode.



It's not a Parody. A parody implies liking what you are making fun of/having some respect for it. The law system is not a parody or a satire of the Japanese law system, it's a jumbled mess of shit that nobody in their right mind would expect to work in ANY videogame logic.



It's more like disappointment. Ace Attorney could be so much better...! But they keep the same formula, with stupid alibis that make no sense (Can't walk on grass, so obviously I couldn't have killed the person in the other studio being one of the dumbest ones I recall off the top of my head), plot twists that are not well hidden, which (as I said) makes all suspsense or surprise disappear... Dai Gyaku seems to have a Jury System? Does it work the way I figured it might work for GS5, had they decided to actually implement the goddamn thing the previous game was about* or did they alter it to be so in the background that they could take it out and it would make no difference? And maybe if they finally caught up with the times? Why were the first few AA games, created during the early 2000s, have technology like they're stuck in the 1980s? (Though I think GS5 did catch up now, with smartphones?)

* Yes, executive meddling, I don't care that AJ was made to promote the good parts of the Jury system - they failed on that aspect - but they shouldn't just ignore that part of the game they pushed so much for a "Dark Age Of The Law" when I'd say that you have BEEN in the dark age for, well, ages...



Absolutely. I enjoy playing 1-4 or 3-4/3-1, but 1-4 has the DL-6 case and... Edgeworth touching a gun, the DOLT... and many other things. (Like Phoenix, for the third time, confronting a suspect with evidence and getting it taken away from him...) But it's still my favorite case cause it has lots of Edgey in it.



I only get really, really mad when the stuff honestly makes no sense, even in established canon. Like my rant in my previous post: I played through 1-5 multiple times and I still cannot honestly think that Lana, who was established as having a cool head (but even ignoring that part), would honestly think her sister was a killer, especially if there was a known multiple homicider in the room at the same time.



Still makes no fucking sense! Between a murderer and my 14-year-old little sister with noodle arms, WHO will I jump-to-the-conclussion was the murderer? Definitely my sister, of course, not the guy who has been taken in (or, according to the game later on, willingly appeared in the Police HQ) for killing a good handful of people.



The gay shipping, yes. Well, more like I pretend everyone is gay and that everything is an innuendo - pretty easy, what with some of the text in this game. (And Phoenix' obsession with Edgey...) I also like some of the music. It's also fun to imagine how the cases could work out in a proper court or imagine how to make them properly difficult. Or even thinking "Hmm, if I made a game, could I make it so I can finish cases early by telling a witness to stop rehashing the same lies and just 'chuck the evidence' into their faces until they break?", like, akin to AA, but much faster and more logical.

C-A

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I answered that exact question a year ago on the link I gave and you still haven't responded to that.

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Baaaaaaaaaaaaack on topic (lol), I concur with the notion that this game might be the JfA of the modern GS trilogy: GS4/5, GS6 and, in a future, GS7. I'm counting GSs 4 and 5 as one for the sake of keeping the next two GSs as a trilogy. But personally, even though GS4 felt like a closed chapter, the story about Apollo's and Trucy's relationship, their relationship with Thalassa, whatever the eff happened with the Phantom, more interactions between Apollo and Klavier, and other things. I would also mention unlocking Kristoph's Black Psyche Locks because we unlocked Athena's, but that could be a stretch. I can't think of a solid justification of them bringing Kristoph back.

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I could be wrong, but... I remember we eventually figured out why he had those Black Psyche Locks, even though we didn't break them.

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Because he was a whiny pussy who did shit due to a scratched ego, the giant baby.

This needed some kind of explanation why? It was made pretty obvious in-game.

C-A

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Good point, since I didn't even really consider silent protagonists while writing my previous comment! Well, forgive me if my presumption is wrong, but... you don't really get angry at Mario or Zelda games, do you? If you do, please provide your usual brash criticism of at least one of those games, so I could attain a better understanding of how you think. Thanks in advance!
I'd say that in those games we relate with the action itself through our innate desire for controlled (and energetic) expression (or something), and that's perfectly okay! Nintendo takes immense pride in making games like those, and doesn't even hide it one bit. Those games mostly are, and are intended to be, "JUST GAMES". Just a good ol' source of fun through a challenge of the reflexes, nothing spectacularly much more (which is not to say that not a single one of those games developed exceptionally successful storytelling as well!). However, because the story of AA is its definite crux, and the gameplay itself mostly tends to further it along rather than actively partaking in its execution, it probably doesn't hold the autonomous value that, say, the gameplay of the Layton games (except maybe Layton Brothers, that's more similar to AAI than anything else) or Ghost Trick does, and I believe this is what ruins the excitement for some people here. If anything, I'd really love to see you take games like these apart in your apparently already very well-established AVGN-esque fashion.
But still, why fret about it so much at all? I get the sneaking suspicion that you were so enchanted by the original four cases that when Rise from the Ashes came out with its admittedly clumsy execution (see? I don't think it's perfect, it just doesn't really ruin it for me!), it left you a bit jaded. Hadn't you liked the game at the start, you probably wouldn't have developed the expectations that now cause you to get upset with so much of the subsequent AA material. You just care too much to not like anything at all!
Or maybe your expectations were already high up before you even got around do playing Ace Attorney? If anyone of you lot knows any courtroom drama visual novel that came before AA and still puts it to shame, tell me, 'cause I really wanna play it. Not to go to great lengths and meticulous details right now, but for example, Telltale's Law & Order: Legacies was just... bland to me in comparison to AA. It had an interesting case or two, plus nostalgia & Dream Team value for many L&O fans, but that's it.

And now, a bit of analysis by popular demand:

Well, first of all, there are ways of obtaining these games for free. I agree that this might not have been the situation back in the days when the games were first released, but then again, you were never gonna go into full poverty mode just because of a video game you hardly know anything about, now would you? As of the present, I don't think buying a chipped 3DS alone (or an iPhone) is a reasonable investment of my time and money, but that's okay, I might get around to buying it eventually, when it's more available and less costly! I already know a safe bit about the storylines of DD and PLvsPW, I don't get upset about spoilers (instead, I get indifferent towards stories that lose their value once their plot twists are already certainly known prior to their conclusions), so all's still peachy with me!
My first point: I was talking about the fact that there is a plethora of media that people can reasonably afford yet still complain about instead of just ignoring it for their own peace. If you invest into it, but then complain about something that's a repercussion of your investmental decision, then that's nobody's fault but yours. Bottom line, if you bought any AA game, then I guess it was a reasonable enough investment for you regardless of the quality, so no problems there.

Second, I value the opinions of you lot much higher than any video game at all, because unlike all those characters that are as man-made as their respective video games and can be considered more or less realistic, as far as I know and decide to trust you, each one of you is a very real and realistic human being made by something far greater than man. Hence my second point: to me, people are far more important than video games, so when I see a problem in one or more pieces of virtual media, I don't worry, but when someone speaks their mind without a hint of an attempt to be humanely kind and considerate, I get concerned about us both!
The negative energies of other people easily get to me and provoke analogous responses from within myself, so when I ask somebody to please speak in a calmer and more respectful manner (though I get from Pessimistic_Fool's statement that it's somewhat of a style you adopted and thus might not reflect your true emotions at all times, CatMuto), I'm actually asking for their help with those destructive emotions I sometimes harbour, but feel powerless to overcome all by myself.
Yes, this might be a video game discussion, but it's also a video game discussion, and I feel that as a community we should stay healthy in that respect.

Third, about your relatability to Phoenix - that's precisely why I said the relatability I've got in mind is, in fact, believability, as the ever-loquacious D. A. McCoy explained quite neatly! (Compliments to your verbal skills, sir! ) Just like I want to (and can, at least to an extent) relate to you lot because you're completely believable to me, regardless of whether I like you or not, I can relate to Phoenix even though he might be a stupid and double-standard jerk of a doormat. My experience tells me there are people like that in our shared reality, and it doesn't really matter if I've personally stumbled upon such a person myself or not - if I recognise them as such, then that's a projection of what I'm really like, in a way (Jung referred to this concept as the "shadow"), whether I like it, admit it and put it out in the open, or not.
The relatability I'm talking about - that's not how you like, that's how you love, and not in the erotic way either. We could use much more of such behaviour (but only if it's honest, else it misses the point!), believe me.

Anyway, sorry if these replies of mine disappoint you or take away too much of your time for no good reason and with no good effect, I just wanted to reply like I thought I ought to! I sincerely hope I didn't offend anyone with my comments, and if I did, I'm sorry about that too, as well as hopeful that we'll work it out like we should!

Man, I miss Holy Hell.

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Not Zelda games, no, but at Zelda as a character, yes. Depending on the game, I might be pissed off with her (Ocarina of Time) or downright wish to kill her (Skyward Sword). With Mario games, I'm just kinda... I dunno, I gave up on them years ago. It's just the same stick all over.



...The first AA game I actually played was JFA. I read about Cases 1-1 till 1-3 and the beginning of 1-4, so I decided to just skip the first game and play the second. I knew the main characters, so I felt I wouldn't be lost. And given the first case is always a tutorial, nothing ... was difficult. Case 2-2 was okay, a bit too obvious for me and 2-3 annoyed the hell out of me, though given what I've read on this forum alone, I am not the only person who dislikes 2-3 a lot. (I sort of like some of the circus characters... as long as they don't appear on-screen for too long)
Then I played 2-4 and was annoyed, because the case felt like it took way too long and, while I liked that they made Phoenix realize that not every defendant he'll get IS innocent (Though in my eyes, the defendant is, since he didn't kill the victim) and that being a lawyer means doing his job, not blindingly try to get everyone off (Ha ha, sexual pun)... but I hate how he seems to forget that lesson in the third game. (Also, the stupid drama with Maya... I got to know her, sure, but Phoenix whining about her made me wish the game wouldn't let me be privvy to his inner monologue)

So can't say I was "enchanted" by any case to begin with. Edgeworth is my preferred character cause, in AA, he tells Phoenix off for saying that he gets guilty verdicts for everyone because the guilty will always lie to avoid consequences for their actions, so he can't take a defendant's word on anything, and tries to get everyone convincted, to give them just desserts. (Basically, he's doing his job) He's also less emotional than Phoenix. One reason why I like AAI...

My expectations weren't raised when I played AA. As said, I had read playthroughs/recaps of the first three cases and I was like, "Okay, so this game has a pretty dumb justice system..." and didn't expect to get a perfectly accurate representation of the law, with all its minuscule loopholes and shades of gray. (If anything, the system in AA is always presented as Black-White. There is no such thing as Self-Defense. We might call it that, but everyone will still be a dick and call you a murderer, so there is no point in even pleading for that. It's either Off by all charges or Guilty)



Might as well go to the Persona thread...



I get what you mean, I guess, if I find a relateable character, either because they remind me of myself from previous years or because they come across as a decently flawed person, I will like them. Look at Tomoko Kuroki from WataMote. Love her, even her jerk-sides, but part of me also sees her problems and that some of her issues of being friendless IS because of the way she acts, so it's self-inflincted.

Which is probably one reason why I can't relate to Phoenix. Nothing he went through feels like something I could relate to, because of his actions. He becomes obsessed with getting back in contact with Edgey, to the point of studying law. I become obsessed about things (and I'd label it as a 'problem' of Aspie, though I find it interesting to get obsessed with things, I see how annoying it can be to others) but not to the extent of shoving my entire life goal onto that one thing/person. He's too spontaneous, too... naive about things... can't stand those people, it bugs me.

What I'd like to see in an AA game is a character who cannot laugh at himself. And have that one be a murderer, because those always come across to me as the most dangerous people. (Heck, make it the manipulative Jury member that I fabricated as a story for GS5, when I talked about the Jury system being a mechanic in the game)

C-A

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They made it pretty obvious, because the explanation itself was meant to be pretty obvious. You said AA games are not perfect (for all the reasons you said before, and I agree with you), but, you know, a obvious explanation is a part of a not-so-perfect game. And knowing Capcom, they won't give a better explanation, as the game is over.

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I'm not complaining about them explaining why Krissy had Black Lockes. I'm wondering why it needed to be explained at all to begin with. It's like explaining that Dahlia and Iris are twin-sisters: Yeah, thanks, I kinda figured that out already, you didn't need to tell me with words.

C-A

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You know, there are people who'll play DD who have never played Apollo Justice before, and would literally have no idea what the christ was going on with the Black Psyche-locks. And, you know, who cares if it's explained or not (other than your unpleasable demands).

Then I misunderstood your previous reply. Well, I don't see the need to explain it too... so yeah, we agree.

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Then that's their own fucking fault, playing the NEXT game in a series, rather than going chronologically!

And re-read the previous post: it didn't NEED to be explained! Period.

C-A

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No, but they did anyway. Tell us more about how this ruined your life.
I mean seriously. It's just petty gripes with you, all the way down. Do you have anything positive to say at all? Ever?

Well her old name Cat Afro is pretty positive... *runs off before getting murdered by Cat Afro*

You have already been murdered! You just don't want to believe it

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T-This cannot be! *points and notices how pale he is* N-No....NOOOOOOOOOO!
Let's go back to the topic at hand now.

Big words from a little noob to this forum

I have positive things to say. Just not many about AA.

C-A

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W-Wait....but you're a regular at CR? What sorcery is this?!

Perhaps we should get back to discussing actual AA6 topics, and leave the caterwauling to the rant threads.

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Of course.

I think the Off-Topic moment is over.

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Ok then to be back on topic:
1) What do you think is his goal for visiting this foreign country? Was it really just for reforming the country system because of this mysterious girl?
2) Sorry if this is offtopic. But:
When EXACTLY is the HAT-3 Launch. From my view it seems to be rather quick compared to HAT-1 & HAT-2 7 years gap. Half year or even full one year afterward?(which means in Dec. 2029?) This is important since we must deduce WHEN this game sets and how it seems to happen AFTER HAT-3 launch.

Last edited by D_Albertz on Fri Sep 11, 2015 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Because the plot calls for him.

must it be him all the time?

The plot needs him. He's errr.... *whispers* Pearl, what is he again? Oh yeah!
He's the chosen one! *walks out*

Alright Nostalgic members..i had enough of Phoenix. I felt that he already good enough to be shoved into a supporting characters. Just gives Maya an appearance in this game.. so this nostalgic thing is over and i'll regain my Apollo and Athena back with their respective games.

APOLLOLOLO FOR LIFE!

I need an HD/Remaster of AJ:AA withone/two bonus cases featuring Clay as his co-counsel one can dream and one can hope.

And i'm offtopic. Ok then..back to this game. Do you think the Black psychelock will be more indepth in this game? I have a guts thinking thst we will face black psychelock again..but had a special way to unlock it instead of usual evidence. iirc..didn't someone mention of black psychelock was being combined with perceive or mood matrix or even logic chess?

Last edited by D_Albertz on Fri Sep 11, 2015 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Yes....YES!