Re: Phoenix gets into a relationship with Iris after case 5?
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xylophone220 wrote:
Yeah, but it's made pretty clear that he only went because she reminded him of Dahlia, and I'm pretty sure that's who he thought she was. IMO that doesn't really imply a relationship.
The ending does, so does the end of Case 3-5. Both of those point in exactly the right direction.
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Re: Phoenix gets into a relationship with Iris after case 5?
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Re: Phoenix gets into a relationship with Iris after case 5?
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Re: Phoenix gets into a relationship with Iris after case 5?
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Re: Phoenix gets into a relationship with Iris after case 5?
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Re: Phoenix gets into a relationship with Iris after case 5?
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Xero Wright wrote:
Eheh... I kind of capitalized on my belief that Phoenix decided to let the past be the past, and that he had forgiven her in his mind for what she told him during the trial. In my fanfic, at least. (It's in the Present Testimony area.)
But, I do still figure people have their opinions. What you say makes sense, it would be very awkward first... but I sort of took from the ending scene, what she said to him, and that Phoenix had three months to back and forth visit Iris and talk to her.
Maybe I'm just off my rocker about the whole deal... but I still hold my belief. I'm not saying that none of you have good points - they're a lot better than mine. I just wish to stick by my opinion for now.
However, I would love to see someone write a fic about the relationship in the way you just said, Firefury.
But, I do still figure people have their opinions. What you say makes sense, it would be very awkward first... but I sort of took from the ending scene, what she said to him, and that Phoenix had three months to back and forth visit Iris and talk to her.
Maybe I'm just off my rocker about the whole deal... but I still hold my belief. I'm not saying that none of you have good points - they're a lot better than mine. I just wish to stick by my opinion for now.
However, I would love to see someone write a fic about the relationship in the way you just said, Firefury.
I fully agree with and share your opinion. I didn't even see the "betrayal" that Iris did as being more than fearful of losing Phoenix if she told him what was really going on between Her and Dahlia. I saw the ending and the comment that Phoenix made to Iris at then end of the court session, as a way of telling Iris that he was right in his gut feelings (that even after all these years of suffering with the knowledge that Dahlia had tried to kill him) that the Dahlia he dated, and the real Dahlia had to be two different people. He held onto his hopes that his love for "Dahlia" had been real, and when he learns the truth about 6 years ago... he is relieved, and the way it sounded in the ending scene, that he still was interested in a relationship with her.
I personally hope that in game 5, this whole situation is finally resolved. There is no forgivable reason to introduce something like that at the start of one game, and then to just lead us on even more with half of a love story at the end of the same game. (The half where Phoenix and "Dahlia" (Iris) were really in love. But we don't have any continuation on that story... and thats the part that I find unforgivable.) And they nshould also resolve whether or not the relationship between Phoenix and Maya was romantic or not. The way they have been in the games, it certainly can seem like they are romantically involved, Phoenix running across a burning bridge, trying everything in his power to rescue Maya from Shelly de Killer, and then even from the start, the first 2 times Maya was being charged of Murder, Phoenix did everything in his arsenal to ensure she would be found innocent and at the same time catch the real killer(s). I do support the Phoenix and Iris relationship a hell of a lot more than I do the one with Maya, but I guess thats part of the problem with the ending of game 3 (or the lack of continuation in game 4. I haven't played game 4 yet, but I'm gonna find it very difficult to warm up to this new cast after falling in love with everyone from the first 3 games. I really don't think the introduction of a new defense attourney and dropping almsot everyone from the original trilogy was a good idea at all. Because I honestly don't feel game 3 ended anything at all except the Godot/Mia thing, and what happened/happens to Maya's Mother. Thats all I really feel ended in game 3, but everything else was left wide open.)
Re: Phoenix gets into a relationship with Iris after case 5?
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Re: Phoenix gets into a relationship with Iris after case 5?
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PouchedRat wrote:
You've all effectively pooped on my phoenix/edgeworth shipping
There's as much likelihood of that based on what's in the games as there is of Phoenix/Iris or Phoenix/Maya. None are set out in canon as a future relationship, so just go with what your imagination prefers :)
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Re: Phoenix gets into a relationship with Iris after case 5?
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Okay so now that's done, here's my two cents. T&T was supposed to be the last we ever saw of Phoenix. I've always thought that the ending was left wide open for Phoenix and Iris/Maya, a kind of choose your own happily ever after ending. (Was a bit disappointing to find out none of it happened though.) Therefore I really think it's all down to personal interpretation, an argument as to if they would've got together, I believe, will always be based on a bias. (Unless of course my dream about them getting together in GS5 is realised >.>)
Last edited by Arthkan on Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Phoenix gets into a relationship with Iris after case 5?
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KingMobUK wrote:
I think it would take him a lot longer to get over it, frankly, based on his previous form with Edgeworth (who, if we presume is just a friend, would hopefully have LESS impact on him in terms of betrayal than someone he loved).
Yes, it might take him three days, possibly even four.
Did you play JFA? Because Phoenix went from "Don't mention him!" to "I trust him," within the space of two days once Edgeworth showed up.
Re: Phoenix gets into a relationship with Iris after case 5?
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IRIS CHEATS AT NUNNING D:
Re: Phoenix gets into a relationship with Iris after case 5?
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Icarus wrote:
Did you play JFA? Because Phoenix went from "Don't mention him!" to "I trust him," within the space of two days once Edgeworth showed up.
You're forgetting the entire year running up to that when he wouldn't even let anyone mention Edgeworth's name to him and then pretty much admitted when the guy did turn up that it wasn't because he thought he was dead, but because he *felt betrayed*.
I played JFA first actually and I was WTFing all the way through as a result "dude you have serious issues".
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Re: Phoenix gets into a relationship with Iris after case 5?
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Geodude wrote:
You make good points. But this brings me to an interesting question:
After all the time that has passed since their relationship, and how much he has learned and grown, would Phoenix have attempted to cross a burning bridge to get to Iris?
After all the time that has passed since their relationship, and how much he has learned and grown, would Phoenix have attempted to cross a burning bridge to get to Iris?
Maya is the single most important person in Phoenix's life (with Edgeworth a close second). There's no doubt about that, that they love each other tremendously.
It's just completely platonic. Their interaction (if taken as good friends/family) is adorable. If taken as romantic, it's sort of... creepy. I really like that they can be the most important person to each other but not be "in love."
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Re: Phoenix gets into a relationship with Iris after case 5?
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KingMobUK wrote:
Icarus wrote:
Did you play JFA? Because Phoenix went from "Don't mention him!" to "I trust him," within the space of two days once Edgeworth showed up.
You're forgetting the entire year running up to that when he wouldn't even let anyone mention Edgeworth's name to him and then pretty much admitted when the guy did turn up that it wasn't because he thought he was dead, but because he *felt betrayed*.
I played JFA first actually and I was WTFing all the way through as a result "dude you have serious issues".
That's why I said "once Edgeworth showed up."
Phoenix was sulking, until then, but once Edgey showed up and they talked a while, Phoenix got over it remarkably quickly. And Phoenix has had what, five, six years to get over Dahlia's betrayal? Once he talks things over with Iris, I don't see any hard feelings staying for long, since Feenie's a forgiving kind of guy. The only things I see being a long-term problem are Iris' guity feelings.
P.S. I played JFA first too. we're kindred spirits or something.
Last edited by Icarus on Mon Nov 12, 2007 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Phoenix gets into a relationship with Iris after case 5?
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Re: Phoenix gets into a relationship with Iris after case 5?
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RazeTora wrote:
Fact: Nuns aren't allowed to romantically fraternize.
IRIS CHEATS AT NUNNING D:
IRIS CHEATS AT NUNNING D:
Wikipedia says here that nuns and sisters are different from each other. A religious sister is considered part of a congregation that follows simple vows (i.e. the right to own goods, under admin restrictions, so no solemn vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience as with nuns of religious orders)
So, in short, Iris is not really cheating, and she's not really nunning, if she's a religious sister -> congregation -> simple vows -> romance is probably a-ok.
You were just joking, right?
Anayway, as for the forum question, I think the opportunity's wide open for Phoenix to take. I'll leave it up to the sequels to tell us if he actually does/did this.
Re: Phoenix gets into a relationship with Iris after case 5?
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Wrestlemania wrote:
Not sure if Iris/Phoenix would fully work out, I mean......
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Re: Phoenix gets into a relationship with Iris after case 5?
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It screams of "goodbye", finally setting things to rest and being able to move on, to me. And I think it was lovely that way, much more than a "oh you were the good twin let's hook up again" could ever have been.
Re: Phoenix gets into a relationship with Iris after case 5?
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Raelle wrote:
I don't doubt that Phoenix would forgive Iris and bear no hard feelings, but "forgiveness" and "no hard feelings" are a pretty far cry from "romance". I think there'll always be tension--how could there not be--but the scene where Iris is confessing the truth of her feelings pretty much shot down the idea that Phoenix was looking for anything beyond settling his past and getting answers from her, for me. The way he responded to what was basically an admission of love just gave no indications of still being head over heels for her; he was completely certain and assured in his answer of "Thank you for validating my belief in you; you're a good person." And she never enters his mind after he steps out of court; his focus is firmly back onto his family and friends of the present.
It screams of "goodbye", finally setting things to rest and being able to move on, to me. And I think it was lovely that way, much more than a "oh you were the good twin let's hook up again" could ever have been.
It screams of "goodbye", finally setting things to rest and being able to move on, to me. And I think it was lovely that way, much more than a "oh you were the good twin let's hook up again" could ever have been.
Again, I point towards the credits scene.
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Re: Phoenix gets into a relationship with Iris after case 5?
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Icarus wrote:
And Phoenix has had what, five, six years to get over Dahlia's betrayal?
Dahlia's.
Not Iris's.
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Re: Phoenix gets into a relationship with Iris after case 5?
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Xero Wright wrote:
Again, I point towards the credits scene.
As I said, there's always going to be tension, and if you really want Phoenix/Iris, by all means, grab hold onto that line.
But that's just not enough for me to look past the fact that Phoenix answered Iris's "I love you" not with confusion, a mess of feelings, or anything like "I still love you, too"--but what amounted to a very calm and controlled "Thank you." And she answered back the same way.
If his thoughts had lingered on her and what he had learned after he had left the courtroom, even a simple (Iris...), then it would imply that there was still things for them to settle and work out between them. But there just wasn't. Phoenix's thoughts were on Mia, on Diego, on Maya--his issues with Iris were nowhere to be found. He's moved on. The 'thank you's exchanged between them just, once again, screamed of 'goodbye'.
As for the forgiveness discussion going on--I think Phoenix pretty much fully forgave Iris after what she said. But I think the fact that he was able to forgive her so easily for her betrayal, and not Edgeworth, does say something about the respective depth of his feelings in the present for both.
Re: Phoenix gets into a relationship with Iris after case 5?
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i liked to much that pair T3T
i think that not because iris is not mentioned anyhere before T&T
probably yes, and probably not
only GS5 can tell us that
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Re: Phoenix gets into a relationship with Iris after case 5?
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To my mind the "thank you" line doesn't particularly scream goodbye, it simply says that they would have to start over again, honestly. If it really was goodbye, why not just have Maya and Pearl visit Iris without Phoenix? I don't think they're falling into each others' arms anytime soon, and it would be absurd if they did, given the shock and the context in which they met. Still, I'd argue that it's a viable pairing, despite its issues. Phoenix and Iris even have a shared character flaw involving absurd levels of trust for particular individuals, the main difference being that Phoenix was right about the person he trusted, and Iris was slightly less accurate in her judgement.
Oh and Iris had tears welling in her eyes during her "thank you," It's not like she breaks down, but I wouldn't call it calm and controlled.
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Re: Phoenix gets into a relationship with Iris after case 5?
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I'm glad you pointed out their shared character flaw, because on a level of personality compatibility, that makes me wary of them. As sweet as their college romance was, it was scary and unhealthy. Iris would have killed--her most precious family, who she potentially gives up everything for later on--or been killed for him. Phoenix lied, covered up the truth, assaulted Mia, and was willing to risk the death penalty for his Dollie. It's an intense, once-in-a-lifetime love, but it's a love that swallows everything besides they themselves. And it's not the kind of love that's compatible with the lives they're living in the present.
By calm, I did mean just Phoenix. There's no way Iris could have been calm--she was exposing her dark secret to Phoenix that she had kept locked up for five years out of terror that he would hate her. When he answers, definitively and certainty, that he doesn't, that she's a good person--of course she'd be in tears. And it was a really, really gorgeous scene, beyond the trappings of romance.
I'd also be careful about drawing quantitative comparisons between "how many days it took for Phoenix to forgive Edgeworth" and "how many days it took for Phoenix to forgive Iris". Time aside, the situations were completely different. I cannot see Phoenix telling Iris to her face that he would rather she be dead, or still being a little pissant at her even when she was doing her best to help him save Maya's life. Phoenix's demeanor immediately after 3-1 was also kind of strange for someone who should have been (and I think was, but the portrayal was odd) utterly broken hearted. He certainly wasn't screaming or having fits at Mia about bringing up Dollie in front of him; instead, he switched the subject very quickly to the "friend he had to save". x_x;
Re: Phoenix gets into a relationship with Iris after case 5?
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As for him being calm, he believed for years the woman he loved most had tried to kill him and now he discovers that he hadn't been so wrong about her. The woman he loved so much really had loved him back. With everything suddenly making sense, I took it as a sign of serenity and happiness, but not a sign of good bye. Why visit her later and why can't he take his eyes off her even though he must endure Pearl's violence when he looks at her like that? If it really is good bye, then he should have moved past her by now and the reaction to seeing her should not still be so strong and show so much infactuation.
As for the friend he had to save, there is no doubt that he cares about Edgeworth, but Phoenix has strong ties to all his friends. It is a big part of his character, but that doesn't mean the connection is romantic. And in response to his changing the subject, Phoenix states at the end that he never could bring himself to believe that the "his Dollie" tried to kill him and he tells Iris he always believed in her. He could well be changing the subject so that he doesn't have to dwell on the pain this is causing and also so that he doesn't have to deal with it right then. He turns to a more hopeful subject (one he can still do something about) and talks about saving his friend.
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Re: Phoenix gets into a relationship with Iris after case 5?
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Quote:
He would not have told Iris he wished she was dead because he didn't know she was his "Dollie" until the very end, so why would he have said such a thing to her.
The basic point was that Edgeworth and Iris's situations were fundamentally different. Even with Iris's confession, she's admitting that she betrayed him utterly in a way different than he believed "Dollie" did for five years. She let him suffer for all that time and lied to him every single day that they were together. He forgives her very quickly. Edgeworth didn't even do anything personal against Phoenix--he just dared to take off without Phoenix knowing, and Phoenix can't let it go even when Edgeworth is working alongside him to save Maya.
Quote:
On the other hand, when speaking to Dahlia (who he still believed was his former lover), he is extremely hard on her and not just because he was trying to protect Maya. You can feel his pain during case 3 when he speaks about betrayal and poisoning and its obvious he hasn't forgiven Dahlia for her actions.
Phoenix definitely has lingering issues over Dahlia. But I was actually surprised how relatively collected he was facing her again in the final part of 3-5; not exactly "I would rather you have been dead! I never want to see you again! I felt so betrayed!", and not exactly nightmares and snapping angrily at anyone every time the issue comes up. Phoenix is able to put his personal feelings of betrayal aside and focus on the case, something he couldn't do during 2-4. Yes, there's a longer passage of time between the two "betayals", and a lot of other ways you could explain it, but the choice of portrayal is still interesting.
Quote:
As for him being calm, he believed for years the woman he loved most had tried to kill him and now he discovers that he hadn't been so wrong about her. The woman he loved so much really had loved him back. With everything suddenly making sense, I took it as a sign of serenity and happiness, but not a sign of good bye. Why visit her later and why can't he take his eyes off her even though he must endure Pearl's violence when he looks at her like that? If it really is good bye, then he should have moved past her by now and the reaction to seeing her should not still be so strong and show so much infactuation.
Dude, Pearl slaps him for looking at Desiree. He's taking a risk of enduring Pearl's violence every time he so much as looks at an attractive woman.
And the impression he gave me, overwhelming, is that he has moved past her. Not a single thought, not an (Iris...), not an (There's so much I still want to say to her...), once he's learned the truth, when his feelings should have been most confused, when he should have been most taken aback. He explicitly, and with utter certainty, answers her "I love you" with one thing: "You're the good person I thought you were." But yes, there will always be some level of tension between them, and lingering feelings. Just like with anyone else's first love.
His lack of a particular kind of reaction speaks to me as much as his actual one. I don't mean to try to shoot down P/I; I think it's a reasonable possibility--if they completely start over--but that's the overwhelming impression it left on me, personally.
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Raelle wrote:
Quote:
He would not have told Iris he wished she was dead because he didn't know she was his "Dollie" until the very end, so why would he have said such a thing to her.
The basic point was that Edgeworth and Iris's situations were fundamentally different. Even with Iris's confession, she's admitting that she betrayed him utterly in a way different than he believed "Dollie" did for five years. She let him suffer for all that time and lied to him every single day that they were together. He forgives her very quickly. Edgeworth didn't even do anything personal against Phoenix--he just dared to take off without Phoenix knowing, and Phoenix can't let it go even when Edgeworth is working alongside him to save Maya.
Lets start off with Iris "betrayal" which consisted of her pretending to be Dahlia (which is the only reason he was't dead earlier) and her not telling him the truth until the end of the game. For the first point, she was protecting him and she certainly hadn't planned to fall in love with him. He was only still alive until that point because Iris was stalling her sister. I have trouble seeing this as major a betrayal as trying to get him convicted of murder. Or of purposely avoiding him for years even while Phoenix tried so hard to get in touch with him. Even further, of leaving just after phoenix had put everything on the line to save him and it seemed like he had finally made a break through which might allow him to finally get his friend back. Personally I see Edgeworth's betrayal as harder to forgive. With the point that Iris allowed his pain to go on for years, can you prove she knew he was suffering? For not telling him afterward, Iris firmly believed she was protecting him (whether her actions were right or wrong is your choice) by leaving him to "get over her." She said that she knew he was in pain at the time (I think the "at the time part" is rather important) and didn't want to hurt him more. She wanted him to forget about her and move on with life. I think the fact that he couldn't move on shows a great deal about his feelings for her. Their relationship went deeper than a "she's so pretty" even if we can't see it. Not to mention, Iris did believe her actions were unforgivable, I just don't agree that Phoenix viewed it that way. When Edgeworth tells her that Phoenix is still suffering the sprite is "surprised Iris." She lived in a small temple, well away from everything else. Why would she know Phoenix was still suffering? She assumed he'd be over her by now. You can't hold her to betrayal if she couldn't have known.
Raelle wrote:
Quote:
On the other hand, when speaking to Dahlia (who he still believed was his former lover), he is extremely hard on her and not just because he was trying to protect Maya. You can feel his pain during case 3 when he speaks about betrayal and poisoning and its obvious he hasn't forgiven Dahlia for her actions.
Phoenix definitely has lingering issues over Dahlia. But I was actually surprised how relatively collected he was facing her again in the final part of 3-5; not exactly "I would rather you have been dead! I never want to see you again! I felt so betrayed!", and not exactly nightmares and snapping angrily at anyone every time the issue comes up. Phoenix is able to put his personal feelings of betrayal aside and focus on the case, something he couldn't do during 2-4. Yes, there's a longer passage of time between the two "betayals", and a lot of other ways you could explain it, but the choice of portrayal is still interesting.
As far as Phoenix's control, he did have longer to try to deal with it and he does say something like "I never thought I'd have to see you again." He is controlled, but the whole arc has shown him grow from a rookie defense attorney to a pro, and control goes with that (He has been through a great deal over three years. Why wouldn't he learn how to control his emotions some?) and we do see his control break a couple times while facing her. I take it more as a sign of growth than any kind of disconnect with the situation. Its the final case and the whole point is he needs to learn how to stand on his own. What could possibly show this growth more than standing against the thing that hurts him most?
Raelle wrote:
Quote:
As for him being calm, he believed for years the woman he loved most had tried to kill him and now he discovers that he hadn't been so wrong about her. The woman he loved so much really had loved him back. With everything suddenly making sense, I took it as a sign of serenity and happiness, but not a sign of good bye. Why visit her later and why can't he take his eyes off her even though he must endure Pearl's violence when he looks at her like that? If it really is good bye, then he should have moved past her by now and the reaction to seeing her should not still be so strong and show so much infactuation.
Dude, Pearl slaps him for looking at Desiree. He's taking a risk of enduring Pearl's violence every time he so much as looks at an attractive woman.
And the impression he gave me, overwhelming, is that he has moved past her. Not a single thought, not an (Iris...), not an (There's so much I still want to say to her...), once he's learned the truth, when his feelings should have been most confused, when he should have been most taken aback. He explicitly, and with utter certainty, answers her "I love you" with one thing: "You're the good person I thought you were." But yes, there will always be some level of tension between them, and lingering feelings. Just like with anyone else's first love.
His lack of a particular kind of reaction speaks to me as much as his actual one. I don't mean to try to shoot down P/I; I think it's a reasonable possibility--if they completely start over--but that's the overwhelming impression it left on me, personally.
For the last point, its a matter of interpretation and I won't argue with you on it. You read it as past and I read it as present. As I said to each their own. I think both are reasonable interpretations.
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Re: Phoenix gets into a relationship with Iris after case 5?
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Mia_Fey wrote:
...You can't hold her to betrayal if she couldn't have known.
tl;dr alert; man the brigs, etc, etc, etc
I love Iris. I love her because she’s a deeply flawed character, but an ultimately good person, who has a lot of conflicted depth if you look beneath the surface. But she betrayed Phoenix and did him wrong, and how you choose to see their relationship pan out after the fact doesn’t really have anything to do with that. Phoenix forgave her. Hell, I forgive her. She was put in a very bad position, and her bad chocies were understandable and human. But yes, she betrayed him, and deeply.
Iris did not have a “one or the other” choice between lying to Phoenix every day or getting him killed. She had other options, like telling Phoenix the truth to warn him, or going to the police, or both. She chose not to, because she was loyal to her sister. She absolutely was not simply and pure-heartedly “protecting him”. Her main goal was protecting Dahlia, and the fact that she refused to act for herself when she was caught between those two commitments is what led to the disaster in 3-1.
Iris knew Phoenix was in deep pain after 3-1. She tells Edgeworth as much, and she would have to be somewhat braindead for this not to click with her anyway. She stayed away--selfishly. She had nothing to lose, and neither did Phoenix, at that point, if she told him: “The person you were in love with wasn’t trying to kill you”, even if she thought she didn’t deserve to be with him anymore. But she was being an emotional coward. Even after Edgeworth tells her, “he’s still suffering”, Edgeworth has to force her into telling the truth by using it as a bargaining chip in her defense.
Even in 3-5, when Iris knows what the right thing is, and knowing how badly she’s hurt Phoenix because of her loyalty to Dahlia and her own weaknesses, she does it again. She let Dahlia out, and cooperated once again by inaction with her plan of vengeance. She knows what Dahlia is, that Dahlia had tried to kill Phoenix in the past and absolutely still has a grudge against him in the present, and that Phoenix trusts the person he thinks is “Iris”. And she still let Dahlia out and run amok, knowing full well that it potentially put the entire investigation team, including the man she professed she was willing to give her life for, and the person most precious to that man, in mortal danger. When Phoenix asks her why she did it, Iris answers honestly: because she loves her sister. It might have been Dahlia posing as Iris who told Phoenix that she could “never go against her sister”, but by all indications that was the truth.
Iris loved Phoenix. If she saw, in front of her eyes, Dahlia meaning to kill him, she would interfere and try to protect him--I believe she was being honest in her confession. But in her heart of hearts, I’m not so sure that’s where her loyalty ultimately lies, and because of that she let Phoenix either be in danger, risked the lives of the people around him, and let him suffer needlessly over and over again. That's a betrayal.
Phoenix forgave her. It’s behind them now. This aspect of Iris is a lot of what let me love her as a character; if she had been "perfect", I probably would have wanted to punch her in the face. But it still happened, and it’s still something to consider as a part of her character and a part of their relationship and what’s to come of it, and I don’t think it’s something that can be whitewashed by saying "you can't hold her to it, she couldn't have known..."
Re: Phoenix gets into a relationship with Iris after case 5?
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Fanfics Updated-12/25
Fanfics Updated-12/25
Re: Phoenix gets into a relationship with Iris after case 5?
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1. It has given CFTF's most famous pairing new life in the PW world.
2. It made it seem more like Gumshoe and Maggey actually have a CHANCE in the future.
3. It makes a Phoenix/Iris pairing not only seem more likely, but almost UNDENIABLE...
Spoiler: spoiler for the end of T&T, and the end of all PW games thus far
Posted by Request.
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Re: Phoenix gets into a relationship with Iris after case 5?
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Raelle wrote:
Even in 3-5, when Iris knows what the right thing is, and knowing how badly she’s hurt Phoenix because of her loyalty to Dahlia and her own weaknesses, she does it again. She let Dahlia out, and cooperated once again by inaction with her plan of vengeance. She knows what Dahlia is, that Dahlia had tried to kill Phoenix in the past and absolutely still has a grudge against him in the present, and that Phoenix trusts the person he thinks is “Iris”. And she still let Dahlia out and run amok, knowing full well that it potentially put the entire investigation team, including the man she professed she was willing to give her life for, and the person most precious to that man, in mortal danger. When Phoenix asks her why she did it, Iris answers honestly: because she loves her sister. It might have been Dahlia posing as Iris who told Phoenix that she could “never go against her sister”, but by all indications that was the truth.
I thought Iris let Dahlia out of the cave because she was under the impression that the person inside was Maya, and only after opening the cage did she realize that it wasn't maya, but actually her sister Dahlia. But by then she had already been thrown inside and locked in with even more psyche locks.
This would certainly explain what happened, and not only that, but it makes sense. The earth quake happens, Iris is worried that the cave collapsed in, she runs off to check (while Edgeworth is for the most part incapacitated by his fear), hears someone inside but can't see them, she unlocks it, goes in, and then Dahlia makes a run for it, locks Iris inside, and then when everyone else arrives she assumes Iris's identity by pretending to be her. Which in itself is a huge piece of irony. (Because Iris pretended to be Dahlia during the relationship with Phoenix, and now Dahlia is pretending to be Iris during the trial/investigation to try and throw suspicion onto Maya Fey... playing somewhat into her plan of getting revenge on Mia.
Re: Phoenix gets into a relationship with Iris after case 5?
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Re: Phoenix gets into a relationship with Iris after case 5?
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I'm not saying that there was no risk at all, just that Dahlia going on a murder spree was not the most likely possibility. Somehow, I can't picture Iris not resisting if Dahlia had been brandishing a knife and "frothing" to kill everyone at Hazakura.
I do also want to make one more slightly less relevant point about Phoenix's lack of shock/ surprise/ confusion at Iris's confession at the conclusion of 3-5. Prior to that point Phoenix mentions (at Dahlia's reveal, I think) that he understood why looking at and talking to "Iris" the day before had made him physically ill; it was actually Dahlia. Phoenix also seems to have a sense about the "real Iris" and be able to distinguish her from Dahlia even as far back as 3-1, so Iris's confession really is for him more confirmation than revelation. Much as Diego and Mia don't even have to acknowledge each other, as they just know each other so well, for Phoenix to say, "I love you too" in response to Iris's confession would be redundant (and send a good portion of P/E fandom into a towering rage). By saying that "you are the good person I thought you were" Phoenix allays Iris's fear that he would hate her, and shows that (to my reading) at least some of his feelings that he "always" had remain. I can't disprove your interpretation, Raelle, but that's my attempt at providing a P/I logic for Phoenix's reaction.
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Last edited by Ramaziel on Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Phoenix gets into a relationship with Iris after case 5?
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Raelle wrote:
No, Iris deliberately let Dahlia out. When Phoenix asks her about it later, he points out that she could have called for help or otherwise resisted. Iris explains she did what she did--not because she was tricked, not because of Maya--but because she loves her sister. She made a choice to help her because of that.
That isn't quite what she says. Phoenix is talking about why Iris helped her in the past while she was alive. I think Phoenix does make some mention to her not being trapped all that time in the Cavern if she had waited, but don't forget Phoenix doesn't know the whole story and therefore makes several incorrect assumptions about what is going on in this case (he doesn't figure out unti well into the trial that Iris had to be an accomplice and her reasoning is not discovered until the end with Godot's reasoning). As you pointed out she could have called for help then, but didn't which was a mistake on her part and she admits this. Dahlia even states that Iris went there to make sure the Sacred Cavern was still standing and to get Maya out. Iris is devastated that someone so important to Phoenix is trapped because of her. Dahlia even calls Iris "stupid girl" for her naivity. How could she have known Maya was channeling Dahlia? Misty had been channeling her until her death and Pearl hadn't told anyone that she was upset because she couldn't channel Dahlia like her mother asked. When Misty died, Dahlia went back to wherever the dead go and only came back because Maya channeled her. You're assumption seems to include that not only did Iris mysteriously guess that Maya would have channeled Dahlia (this only happened after consulting MIa which is something else that Iris couldn't have known about) and Iris guessed there would be an earthquake so she could escape to let Dahlia out. I think its far more reasonable to assume that, like everyone, Iris assumed Dahlia was gone and considering she would have known how unstable the Inner Temple is, she ran there to check on Maya. That Maya was channeling Dahlia was not something that Iris could have known. She went along with Godot's plan to stop Dahlia and Morgan, not to help them (the problems that follow where mostly one accident after another. Pearl didn't go to Misty, so Misty channeled Dahlia. Godot losses it and kills Misty. They have to deal with the body and get the blame away from Maya. No part of this was set up ahead of time. Why would Iris have been a part of this plan if she wanted to help Dahlia or why wouldn't she have interferred with Godot and Misty so that Dahlia would succeed in killing Maya? She knew Dahlia was a part of this and they were trying to stop her). Her biggest fear is that Phoenix will find out her secret (this from the psyche-locks, so I think we can trust it), which explains her inaction in the beginning and she does help with the plan after things go wrong. I see no indication that by this point she was still helping Dahlia.
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Fanfics Updated-12/25
Fanfics Updated-12/25
Re: Phoenix gets into a relationship with Iris after case 5?
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I don't think Iris "planned" to let Dahlia out of the cave. She didn't plan the earthquake. She didn't plan on "helping" her. She was earnestly trying to work with Diego to stop her. But when faced with her sister? She gave in, as always, and essentially by her inaction told Phoenix (and the rest of the investigation team), "Have a delicious, rabid serial killer who has tried to kill you in the past, still holds a deep grudge against you, and who I'm fully aware is actively trying to kill someone precious to you. As a bonus, she's wearing the face of someone you trust so you probably won't suspect until it's too late. Enjoy!!!1" This is consistent with her major character flaw that runs throughout the entire case, and I'm sorry, I don't think that's made any better because Dahlia was unarmed at the time she strolled out of the cave.
She wasn't trying to hurt Phoenix, but she was absolutely willing to risk them to go along with her sister. You can't whitewash it, and I'm astonished that people are trying.
As for the last scene, I can't buy that Phoenix "suspected" and the confession was just "confirmation", given that he expresses first confusion ("Huh...? What do you mean?"), and then absolute shock ("N-n-no way! It just can't be true!") when she comes clean.
Re: Phoenix gets into a relationship with Iris after case 5?
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Iris let her out. She could have said she was worried about Maya's body in that weather, but she doesn't. The only thing she says to us in regards to her motivation is that she loves her sister. (Probably my second-favorite Iris-related scene in the entire game as a matter of fact.)
Re: Phoenix gets into a relationship with Iris after case 5?
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Nick x Maya & Nick x 
Hmmmm... whatever, it is time to 
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Re: Phoenix gets into a relationship with Iris after case 5?
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Oh, and thank you Naruhodou, you nearly made me fall out of my chair laughing as I imaginined post 3-5 Phoenix x Dahlia.
Aku Soku Zan- Slay Evil Immediately
Last edited by Ramaziel on Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Phoenix gets into a relationship with Iris after case 5?
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Really? So you're welcome then 
Hmmmm... whatever, it is time to (7o_o)7 Sprite Arts Game char Deja-vus? Chores AA char in 3D! Ryu ♥ CR!
People should live freely without constraints.
That's how life should be! - Richard Wellington
Re: Phoenix gets into a relationship with Iris after case 5?
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Ramaziel wrote:
And yet, despite all the danger inherent in letting (pick your adjectives) Dahlia out, nothing bad actually happens. Dahlia is handed the world's greatest chance for consequence free mayhem and does nothing. Odd, isn't it?
Which has absolutely nothing to do with Iris's responsibility for putting Phoenix and the others in danger, fully aware of the potential consequences.
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