What makes Case 4 so good [Case 4 SPOILERS]
Friendly Neighborhood Naruhodou
Gender: None specified
Location: Wait, let me check...
Rank: Suspect
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:24 pm
Posts: 46
One of the reasons (I believe) Case 4 is one of the most fun (though I use it in a rough sense to encompass things like "dramatic", "emotional", and all-around "good") is its initial understatedness. When you start the case, it seems fairly standard. If you haven't read extensively about the game previously, you may fell that another case will finish off the game. And Case 4 does, initially, follow the "filler" format (think 1-3 & 2-3). Oh, a rip-off of the Steel Samurai killed someone and all that. Ho hum. Maya gets kidnapped? Guess they needed something to differentiate the case. You gather some evidence, talk to some witnesses - hey, that manager looks awfully suspicious... You meet Edgeworth, but he says he's not prosecuting this case (which itself foreshadows a Case 5). The game impresses on you that you only have one day to get a "Not Guilty"; this itself precludes the possibilities of a second day and more development.
The first trial, too, seems fairly generic, excluding de Killer's "present". It's longer than most, but that's just because its only one day, right? You get so close to a standard ending: Adrian confessing to the crime, everything being happy again. But you don't get your "Not Guilty" (But we do get a new Phoenix sprite, which itself is used very well (revealing it after the greatest disappointment in the game? WINNAR)).
But the best thing about Day 1 (including Trial 1, though, of course, that is day 2) is the general sense of unease. Enguarde, though he seems better than Max, is awfully evasive in answering the "Did you do it?" question. Adrian is much more sympathetic than the usual murderer (though that is a trend in JFA). The kidnapping of Maya is quite odd. There are just too many loose plot ends to resolve. And then it gets even more complicated on Day 2 (which is, as has been discussed before, simply epic).
Comments? Thoughts? "Get off the forum, U N00Bzzz 101z3z!!!!!!!11111"s? (As you might notice, this is my second post)
...
Re: What makes Case 4 so good [Case 4 SPOILERS]
Gender: None specified
Rank: Suspect
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 4:52 am
Posts: 38
1-4 had more Edgy, and I liked that. And all the flashbacks, and the major plot twist.
1-5 just was great because of all the scientific investigation stuff.
But even though those are my favourites, 2-4 had to be one of, if not THE most emotional case in the series so far. Although I haven't played GS3.
Re: What makes Case 4 so good [Case 4 SPOILERS]
Master of sharp things!
Gender: Male
Location: New York City
Rank: Moderators
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 4:06 am
Posts: 2011
Also, the sense of Déja Vu mixed into that. You're defending another Steel Samurai who's accused of murdering another actor, with the same alliby and even Wendy Oldbag herself appearing, also again a fan of the victim. Such a repeat itself is backwards, since something on such a grand scale in a case hasn't happened at all otherwise, which adds to that sense of things being (sort-of) backwards.
The sense of prolonging the trials to such an extent on purpose, not to mention defending someone who is actually guilty, all of it just combines to a fantastic conclusion that makes the case great.
Re: What makes Case 4 so good [Case 4 SPOILERS]
未来の遂行者
Gender: Male
Rank: Decisive Witness
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:08 am
Posts: 188
Re: What makes Case 4 so good [Case 4 SPOILERS]
Doomed Defendant
Gender: None specified
Location: I live in Luxembourg, according to Mrs. Edgeworth. :B (Nah, it's Canadia.)
Rank: Desk Jockey
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 4:01 am
Posts: 115
Phoenix doing everything he could just to save someone else in a completely selfless act; finally putting aside the resentment at Edgeworth and partnering up with him; fighting to get someone obviously guilty acquitted...
It had all the elements that I liked to see in a story.
Besides, my favourite part was as Phoenix tried in despair to keep the trial going; not to mention that Case 4 introduced some of my favourite characters, such as Adrian Andrews and that bastard, Matt Engarde.
Re: What makes Case 4 so good [Case 4 SPOILERS]
The Ace Attorney has Spoken!
Gender: None specified
Rank: Suspect
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 12:02 pm
Posts: 9
1) The presence of Edgeworth
was obviously a huge plus. I had been going to Edgy withdrawal until case 4. (Don't judge me. I can quit whenever I want to.....I just don't want to!)2) The return of Dr. Perversion
. Too funny. "Oh, hoh hoh...You mean the little hottie with the whip!"3) The kidnapping of Maya
! It made Case 4 so much more interesting and it kept you playing. You really wanted to see Maya safe (Well, most of us anyway).4) The large amount of adorableness
! NUFF SAID!5) The descent of Engarde
in Phoenix's eyes. He starts out seeming innocent. He is kind, but pretty stupid. Then ,WHAM, everything is revealed andMatt shows the awesome scars.
The Ace Attorney has spoken!
Re: What makes Case 4 so good [Case 4 SPOILERS]
The world calls it love
Gender: None specified
Location: Meeshigan
Rank: Donor
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 12:09 am
Posts: 151
Oh, and Shoe's cool, too.
Re: What makes Case 4 so good [Case 4 SPOILERS]
Gender: None specified
Rank: Decisive Witness
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 4:16 am
Posts: 180
While it WAS nice to see some old faces, it all just seemed....so....bleh.
The two trials just went on & on & on & on....and on the most pointless things. Cheap way to extend a trail. I felt no sense of urgency, or panic, over Maya being kidnapped. Just annoyed. & Matt should fall into a whole & die. Not because he was "evil", but because he was so god d*** annoying! Give me Turnabout Big Top any day.
The one good thing it did was bring back some old goodies(Oldbag, Lotta(again), & Will) and introduced Adrian, who I look forward to seeing in PW3. Could have cared less about Edgey.
Re: What makes Case 4 so good [Case 4 SPOILERS]
Your victory is inevitable, Mr. Justice
Gender: Male
Location: UK
Rank: Desk Jockey
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 3:24 pm
Posts: 68
But the dramatics were great too. As well as the "Adrian or Maya" element in the second trial, especially since it looked like Adrian was the criminal at first.
The only thing I really liked about case 3 were the bits that foreshadowed case 4. Some lines even look better in the light of case 4. How can we trust the words of the defendant, indeed.
Re: What makes Case 4 so good [Case 4 SPOILERS]
Gender: Female
Location: England
Rank: Suspect
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:37 am
Posts: 26
But I also liked the fact you could achieve a good ending, and a bad ending. If you messed up, Maya died. If you got it right, you got the happy reunion T^T
Though, it was painfully long - but that was probably because I just could not put down my DS whilst playing this case. i was so desperate to see what would happen.
Re: What makes Case 4 so good [Case 4 SPOILERS]
Unlikely Idealist
Gender: None specified
Location: The Netherlands
Rank: Desk Jockey
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:35 pm
Posts: 53
It just didn't connect to me on any kind of emotional level. I just didn't care about Maya's kidnapping or Phoenix's mounting despair. It all felt too fake and too forced. I kept getting the feeling that the writers wanted to say something with this case, but they never really managed to articulate just what the hell it was.
Gumshoe was a bright spot, though. He was totally awesome.
"Humanity is measured by the soul, not the flesh." ~~ Layla
Re: What makes Case 4 so good [Case 4 SPOILERS]
Gender: Female
Location: England
Rank: Suspect
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:37 am
Posts: 26
WotanAnubis wrote:
I just didn't care about Maya's kidnapping or Phoenix's mounting despair. It all felt too fake and too forced. I kept getting the feeling that the writers wanted to say something with this case, but they never really managed to articulate just what the hell it was.
I thought it was about the relationship between Phoenix and Maya. All the way through the game Pearl is saying Phoenix is Maya's 'special person' or something along those lines. I figured it was heavily hinting at a Maya/Phoenix pairing - or that Phoenix has a profound fondess towards Maya, and it was all up to him to give a murder a 'not guilty' verdict, which goes against everything he originally stood for.
Re: What makes Case 4 so good [Case 4 SPOILERS]
Your victory is inevitable, Mr. Justice
Gender: Male
Location: UK
Rank: Desk Jockey
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 3:24 pm
Posts: 68
Re: What makes Case 4 so good [Case 4 SPOILERS]
The hope that shines through despair.
Gender: Male
Location: Here
Rank: Prosecutor
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:04 pm
Posts: 736
fishy_hylian wrote:
I adored this case, mainly because it was so much more of an emotional rollercoaster than the previous cases - and you got to see that emotion in Phoenix - which we never really see because he's always calm and collected.
But I also liked the fact you could achieve a good ending, and a bad ending. If you messed up, Maya died. If you got it right, you got the happy reunion T^T
Though, it was painfully long - but that was probably because I just could not put down my DS whilst playing this case. i was so desperate to see what would happen.
But I also liked the fact you could achieve a good ending, and a bad ending. If you messed up, Maya died. If you got it right, you got the happy reunion T^T
Though, it was painfully long - but that was probably because I just could not put down my DS whilst playing this case. i was so desperate to see what would happen.
It's not an ending. It's a glorified Game Over.
Re: What makes Case 4 so good [Case 4 SPOILERS]
Master of sharp things!
Gender: Male
Location: New York City
Rank: Moderators
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 4:06 am
Posts: 2011
fishy_hylian wrote:
But I also liked the fact you could achieve a good ending, and a bad ending. If you messed up, Maya died. If you got it right, you got the happy reunion T^T
Well, there's only one ending, and that's when you win. The scene of Phoenix walking away after a Non-Guilty verdict is nothing more than a glorified game over screen. And even then, Maya doesn't die in that one, either, Phoenix just never sees her again out of shame.
Re: What makes Case 4 so good [Case 4 SPOILERS]
Took the name so you couldn't
Gender: None specified
Rank: Desk Jockey
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 12:16 am
Posts: 61
1) The presence of Edgeworth
was obviously a huge plus. I had been going to Edgy withdrawal until case 4. (Don't judge me. I can quit whenever I want to.....I just don't want to!)lol you do do realize they just put him in there because they wanted to make fanboys/girls squee.
Re: What makes Case 4 so good [Case 4 SPOILERS]
Gender: Female
Location: England
Rank: Suspect
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:37 am
Posts: 26
And in regards to Pearl's lines, I think they do have some sort of base. Even if Phoenix and Maya aren't romantically attached with one another, I think it's pretty evident that they do care for each other a lot.
And, yes, Maya told him to get a Guilty verdict. But this was conflicting with Phoenix because if he got a guilty verdict, Maya would die. Hence his frustration at not being able to make the choice so easily and despairing over it. Either he gets Matt found guilty, and Maya dies, or finds him not guilty and Adrian dies, who is totally innocent. Either way, he wouldn't be able to live with himself.
Re: What makes Case 4 so good [Case 4 SPOILERS]
That kid nobody likes.
Gender: Female
Location: Earth.
Rank: Decisive Witness
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:52 pm
Posts: 197
Shelly de Killer wrote:
I had been going to Edgy withdrawal until case 4. (Don't judge me. I can quit whenever I want to.....I just don't want to!)
Yeah, that's what Phoenix said ^^
Case 4 was just plain different from the others, I guess that's what makes it so fun.
Re: What makes Case 4 so good [Case 4 SPOILERS]
Friendly Neighborhood Naruhodou
Gender: None specified
Location: Wait, let me check...
Rank: Suspect
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:24 pm
Posts: 46
"The prosecution is ready... naturally!"Calm, cool, and collected. That is Edgeworth at his best.
Another awesome point: Franziska's final entrance. I hadn't made the connection that it would be Franziska to find Gumshoe, so I was honestly surprised. Just when the tension has built up to an unbearable level and you have made your "final" decision as to whether you ask for "Guilty" or "Not Guilty"...
*Whip crack*
*slam*
Is it just me or is "Great Revival" associated with the best moments of the game?
...
Built For The Kill
Gender: Male
Location: Massachussetts
Rank: Ace Attorney
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 9:24 am
Posts: 1559
I do not tolerate bullies. Good day.
Re: What makes Case 4 so good [Case 4 SPOILERS]
Gender: None specified
Rank: Desk Jockey
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 1:42 am
Posts: 82
Re: What makes Case 4 so good [Case 4 SPOILERS]
HOTEL DUSK DANCE PARTYYYY
Gender: None specified
Location: Scotland
Rank: Desk Jockey
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:17 am
Posts: 92
I was also really on the edge of my seat at the end of day 1. I honestly thought I had screwed up somewhere, and I was really close to restarting the case.
Re: What makes Case 4 so good [Case 4 SPOILERS]
太多時間
Gender: Male
Location: UK
Rank: Ace Attorney
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 3:39 pm
Posts: 1192
2. Phoenix has to prove a GUILTY person NOT GUILTY in order to save Maya.
3. Gumshoe getting the three evidences (That part was just too good)
4. Edgeworth showing up.
5. Franziska gets shot.
6. It just is.
Let us dye the world in despair, and bring a dismal end to this fairy tale.
Re: What makes Case 4 so good [Case 4 SPOILERS]
5 cups a day keep the doctor away
Gender: Male
Location: Scotland, Here be Dragons
Rank: Desk Jockey
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 4:19 pm
Posts: 74
oy, what a FAB-UL-OUS case was that..cough yeah.
it also introduced the other two search tunes...<3
Re: What makes Case 4 so good [Case 4 SPOILERS]
Gender: Female
Location: Finlalaland~
Rank: Ace Attorney
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:54 am
Posts: 1001
WotanAnubis wrote:
I didn't particularly like this case either.
It just didn't connect to me on any kind of emotional level. I just didn't care about Maya's kidnapping or Phoenix's mounting despair. It all felt too fake and too forced. I kept getting the feeling that the writers wanted to say something with this case, but they never really managed to articulate just what the hell it was.
Gumshoe was a bright spot, though. He was totally awesome.
It just didn't connect to me on any kind of emotional level. I just didn't care about Maya's kidnapping or Phoenix's mounting despair. It all felt too fake and too forced. I kept getting the feeling that the writers wanted to say something with this case, but they never really managed to articulate just what the hell it was.
Gumshoe was a bright spot, though. He was totally awesome.
I'm pretty much the same opinion. I first liked the way Phoenix was forced to get the not guilty in one day, but when he didn't get it and we had to wait for the next day, I lost interest. It wasn't 24 enough.
And I think the case was incredibily short for some odd reason, may be just my imagination.
But I love the way Gumhoe's role expanded in the whole game. I love him even more today
Darn! He is so adorable...
Re: What makes Case 4 so good [Case 4 SPOILERS]
The hope that shines through despair.
Gender: Male
Location: Here
Rank: Prosecutor
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:04 pm
Posts: 736
Re: What makes Case 4 so good [Case 4 SPOILERS]
Life is bittersweet
Gender: None specified
Location: A house
Rank: Suspect
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:13 am
Posts: 49
That and how it throws plot twists from here to next Tuesday at ya. Its done steriotypically yes, but they did it in a way that actually worked and thats why I love Case 4.
Re: What makes Case 4 so good [Case 4 SPOILERS]
Mr.Twister
Gender: Male
Location: Samarinda(Indonesia)
Rank: Decisive Witness
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 2:19 pm
Posts: 214
1.We Must Choose.Guilty Or Not Guilty...with Our Darn Client...
2.The Returns Of Edgeworth
3.Oldbag Is Bag...eh..Back!I Always Laugh When We Cross Examine Her.Especially,When She Insult Phoenix 'Baboon Boy'
4.Detective Gumshoe!He Really Helped Phoenix.And..I almost want to cry when he Had An Accident when he want to deliver the 3 evidence to phoenix.I thought he is dead.but...Hurrayyy he is still alive!
[/URL]
Re: What makes Case 4 so good [Case 4 SPOILERS]
Struck by a blunt objection
Gender: Male
Location: Denmark
Rank: Ace Attorney
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:12 pm
Posts: 1472
And because I don't like Adrian. The least bit.
I liked the entire do-ot-diffrent-from-other-cases type of gameplay. Was nice.
Re: What makes Case 4 so good [Case 4 SPOILERS]
So moe for Makoto it's funny.
Gender: Male
Location: NC, NJ, MN
Rank: Ace Attorney
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 4:24 am
Posts: 2501
Quote:
And because I don't like Adrian. The least bit.
That's just because you have no soul.
*pat pat*
(Awesome sig art by Axl99!)
Re: What makes Case 4 so good [Case 4 SPOILERS]
XD
Gender: Male
Location: im in ur mind, watchin ur thoughts
Rank: Desk Jockey
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 4:10 am
Posts: 97
Mikker wrote:
I never liked it that much, most likely because I got it spoiled before I played it....
I got spoiled too. That is to say, I knew that my client would be guilty, as well as that there would supposedly be a "bad ending", and I also knew the assassin's role in the whole thing. But, in a way, I think that almost made it better. It was really such a dramatic trial... it just was.
Re: What makes Case 4 so good [Case 4 SPOILERS]
Struck by a blunt objection
Gender: Male
Location: Denmark
Rank: Ace Attorney
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:12 pm
Posts: 1472
CantFaketheFunk wrote:
Quote:
And because I don't like Adrian. The least bit.
That's just because you have no soul.
*pat pat*
It is Adrian that has no Soul.
Adrian is (or was, rather) a heartless, arrogant, stupid oh-look-I-am-so-successful woman. There is a REASON why Phooenix press charges ageanst her. When she denies everything and basicly starts crying, I could almost laugh at her. I pity she wasn't found guilty, because her going all emo was completely unwanted, and was simply a waste of time. The only reason I later tried to prove her not guilty was for one reason alone to prove MATT to be guilty. And that she gives in to Franziska's whippin so fast? Is her personality really that weak? Really, put her in jail before she actually does commit a murder. I generelly found the seriousness arround Adrian's backstory to be one of the poorer moments in JFA.
Spoiler:
Oh, and I don't find her hot either.
Re: What makes Case 4 so good [Case 4 SPOILERS]
Unlikely Idealist
Gender: None specified
Location: The Netherlands
Rank: Desk Jockey
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:35 pm
Posts: 53
Mikker wrote:
Is her personality really that weak?
Hmm. How to put this delicately...
Yes.
Adrian is not so much co-dependant as she is dependant. She needs others to tell her what to do. Well, she needs women, basically. I don't think she listens to men.
She used to depend on Celeste. And then Celeste killed herself.
Now without anyone to depend on and tell her what to do, Adrian first tried to kill herself and then became Matt's manager to try and discover the truth about Celeste. In order to be able to keep going without any form of support, she had to adopt what you call an air of 'heartless, arrogant, stupid successfulness'. She would not have been able to survive mentally if she hadn't.
And she gives in to Franziska so easily because she is (or presents herself as) a strong, capable woman. Someone Adrian can depend on. Which is rather important to her. Especially since she's been floundering loose for way too long.
So yes, Adrian is, technically, a weak woman. Incapable of surviving if left completely on her own.
But somehow I don't think that really justifies laughing in her face and wishing she gets imprisoned or sentenced to death for something she didn't do.
"Humanity is measured by the soul, not the flesh." ~~ Layla
Re: What makes Case 4 so good [Case 4 SPOILERS]
Asumie Maroba: Sort Of Good Detective
Gender: None specified
Rank: Suspect
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 4:12 am
Posts: 33
T3h_Waffleman wrote:
It's all the fact that de Killer's radio kinda looks like him if you think about it. The line down the middle, the circle on the left of it...and that's it. But those are distinct qualities of him.
I know! That was personally what I liked best.
Payne By:Croik-----Maya By:Harry Miste
Re: What makes Case 4 so good [Case 4 SPOILERS]
Life is bittersweet
Gender: None specified
Location: A house
Rank: Suspect
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:13 am
Posts: 49
Mikker wrote:
Adrian is (or was, rather) a heartless, arrogant, stupid oh-look-I-am-so-successful woman. There is a REASON why Phooenix press charges ageanst her. When she denies everything and basicly starts crying, I could almost laugh at her. I pity she wasn't found guilty, because her going all emo was completely unwanted, and was simply a waste of time. The only reason I later tried to prove her not guilty was for one reason alone to prove MATT to be guilty. And that she gives in to Franziska's whippin so fast? Is her personality really that weak? Really, put her in jail before she actually does commit a murder. I generelly found the seriousness arround Adrian's backstory to be one of the poorer moments in JFA.
Owch dude. I mean really, thats pretty cruel. Its not like she was raised to be arrogant or grew up that way, she just had to act that way to stay stable unless she were to relapse and possibly try to kill herself again. She has a disorder and just cannot support herself, not everybody is strong and capable of doing that. And to want to laugh at her for her weakness isn't right.
Re: What makes Case 4 so good [Case 4 SPOILERS]
First an earthquake, now this!
Gender: None specified
Rank: Suspect
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:48 am
Posts: 20
Mikker wrote:
Adrian is (or was, rather) a heartless, arrogant, stupid oh-look-I-am-so-successful woman. There is a REASON why Phooenix press charges ageanst her. When she denies everything and basicly starts crying, I could almost laugh at her. I pity she wasn't found guilty, because her going all emo was completely unwanted, and was simply a waste of time. The only reason I later tried to prove her not guilty was for one reason alone to prove MATT to be guilty. And that she gives in to Franziska's whippin so fast? Is her personality really that weak? Really, put her in jail before she actually does commit a murder. I generelly found the seriousness arround Adrian's backstory to be one of the poorer moments in JFA.
Oh, and I don't find her hot either.
Oh, and I don't find her hot either.
Yeah... That's like... Making fun of a kid with a mental disorder.
I don't have photoshop, so I can't have a half-decent sig... 
Re: What makes Case 4 so good [Case 4 SPOILERS]
Struck by a blunt objection
Gender: Male
Location: Denmark
Rank: Ace Attorney
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:12 pm
Posts: 1472
I was of course exaggerating my point. But that doesn't change the point that I don't like her and found the entire backstory a drag that I didn't even try and follow.
And I found the changing between fun and serious to be really odd. I mean, Harry Potter 4 movie odd. You don't know when to laugh and when to cry. So you do neither. And just skip through it.
Re: What makes Case 4 so good [Case 4 SPOILERS]
[140.85]
Gender: None specified
Rank: Suspect
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 10:21 pm
Posts: 2
Re: What makes Case 4 so good [Case 4 SPOILERS]
Madness in the court
Gender: None specified
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow
Rank: Suspect
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:11 am
Posts: 3
But Case 4 was a gem after all, even if it didn't start out with a bang like 1-4(no pun intended). I agree with Orca about everything seemingly tying itself up in backwards deja vu-- the thing that hooked me about Case 4 was that, as time went on, something just felt rotten in the state of Denmark. :>
And as you delved further and further, Phoenix dug himself deeper and deeper... until finally, the time came when he just couldn't put things off any longer.
... Besides, Matt with the hair-flip, hard rock, and gravy snifter?
... Priceless.
Re: What makes Case 4 so good [Case 4 SPOILERS]
Prufursurnkfa fushcatchurrr
Gender: Male
Location: Evil Dutchieland
Rank: Moderators
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:10 am
Posts: 3685
Mikker wrote:
Missing half of the dialoge really doesn't improve your likeness of the charrecters.
Then go on and play it on a good and nice non-rom apparatus
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum
News
Site map
SitemapIndex
RSS Feed