Did Valant do it?
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However, there is a significant contradiction in this story!
If you look at the crime scene photo, you see the bullet hole in his forehead. The autopsy report confirms that this was, indeed, the only bullet hole. If you were going to shoot yourself with a pistol, you would aim at your temple!
Now, Valant is the one who told us that Magnifi commited suicide. While the story makes sense save for the above reason, let us consider this scenario.
Valant entered the room at 11:20 PM with the intention of shooting Magnifi and framing Zak. But something stayed his hand. Magnifi then woke up and spoke with Valant about the rights to his magic. Valant was about to leave, but heard "that little demon" telling him to enact his plot to get the rights to Magnifi's magic.
Re: Did Valant do it?
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Re: Did Valant do it?
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Re: Did Valant do it?
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Zinle wrote:
I think ya just think too much.
Better than not thinking enough!
book__wyrm wrote:
If you read the Zac is a jerk comics, you'd know that magnifi wanted to frame Valant for being a wimp
I do believe that those were meant as satire. Even if they weren't, the most it would amount to is conjecture.
Re: Did Valant do it?
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Re: Did Valant do it?
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GigaHand wrote:
If you look at the crime scene photo, you see the bullet hole in his forehead. The autopsy report confirms that this was, indeed, the only bullet hole. If you were going to shoot yourself with a pistol, you would aim at your temple!
Actually, people who try to kill themselves with a gun have been known to miss using this method. If you aim at your temple and the angle is even slightly off the bullet could glance off your skull or even take off the front of your head without killing you. Even putting the barrel in your mouth sometimes leads to missing the brain completely - you could blow out your mouth, or worse, damage your spinal cord and still be alive.
I once listened to a nurse complain for too long about people who tried to kill themselves, failed, and then were deformed or paralyzed and lived the rest of their life in her hospital. NOT a pleasant conversation.
Anyway, just saying that maybe because Magnifi knew he was using a gun with only one shot he made extra sure it would get the job done.
Re: Did Valant do it?
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Re: Did Valant do it?
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Ok...Now this bothers for the rest of my life! >.<
*Does the Magnifi's*
Re: Did Valant do it?
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Aevitas wrote:
To be fair though, I did wonder about his suicide too, because I remembered another case where the distance of the gun and the victim was called into question. It involved gun powder residue not being found on the victim which would confirm that the gun was shot at a distance, in other words, the victim couldn't have shot himself. In Magnifi's case, they never mentioned any residue, but that would've been the most telltale sign that he committed suicide. So.. if he really shot himself like Valant said he did, wouldn't there be gun powder on him?
*facepalms* I noticed that too. How did I forget to mention it?
EDIT: The case you're thinking of is 2-2, I believe.
Croik wrote:
GigaHand wrote:
If you look at the crime scene photo, you see the bullet hole in his forehead. The autopsy report confirms that this was, indeed, the only bullet hole. If you were going to shoot yourself with a pistol, you would aim at your temple!
Actually, people who try to kill themselves with a gun have been known to miss using this method. If you aim at your temple and the angle is even slightly off the bullet could glance off your skull or even take off the front of your head without killing you. Even putting the barrel in your mouth sometimes leads to missing the brain completely - you could blow out your mouth, or worse, damage your spinal cord and still be alive.
I once listened to a nurse complain for too long about people who tried to kill themselves, failed, and then were deformed or paralyzed and lived the rest of their life in her hospital. NOT a pleasant conversation.
Anyway, just saying that maybe because Magnifi knew he was using a gun with only one shot he made extra sure it would get the job done.
That came out SO wrong. Anyway, your argument isn't as strong as you might think because you are smart. How ironic.
Last edited by GigaHand on Thu May 28, 2009 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Did Valant do it?
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Andrew1989 wrote:
But didn't that little 'demon' only reawaken AFTER magnifi killed himself?
That's just according to Valant's story, which is the very thing we are bringing into question.
Re: Did Valant do it?
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Put this on the end of your Sig everyone:
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Re: Did Valant do it?
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did it. Maybe he killed Zak also. Maybe 
is innocent!!!Sorry, that was a little random outburst there.
But seriously, why else would he wait until everything was over before telling
what actually happened?
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Re: Did Valant do it?
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GigaHand wrote:
EDIT: The case you're thinking of is 2-2, I believe.
Ah yes, that's probably the case I was thinking of, thanks for jogging my memory.
Re: Did Valant do it?
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I seem to remember that the hospital room was only five feet wide, so bullet residue would've been there even if there was a murderer?
Or maybe I'm just making stuff up.
Re: Did Valant do it?
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Capybara wrote:
Wasn't there an explanation for this?
I seem to remember that the hospital room was only five feet wide, so bullet residue would've been there even if there was a murderer?
Or maybe I'm just making stuff up.
I seem to remember that the hospital room was only five feet wide, so bullet residue would've been there even if there was a murderer?
Or maybe I'm just making stuff up.
Yup. You are.
Re: Did Valant do it?
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GigaHand wrote:
Capybara wrote:
Wasn't there an explanation for this?
I seem to remember that the hospital room was only five feet wide, so bullet residue would've been there even if there was a murderer?
Or maybe I'm just making stuff up.
I seem to remember that the hospital room was only five feet wide, so bullet residue would've been there even if there was a murderer?
Or maybe I'm just making stuff up.
Yup. You are.
Nope. He's not. That makes sense. In fact, I think they might have brought that up...
Re: Did Valant do it?
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Lind_L_Tailor wrote:
GigaHand wrote:
Capybara wrote:
Wasn't there an explanation for this?
I seem to remember that the hospital room was only five feet wide, so bullet residue would've been there even if there was a murderer?
Or maybe I'm just making stuff up.
I seem to remember that the hospital room was only five feet wide, so bullet residue would've been there even if there was a murderer?
Or maybe I'm just making stuff up.
Yup. You are.
Nope. He's not. That makes sense. In fact, I think they might have brought that up...
Time to replay, I think. I swear Gumshoe said something about it...
Re: Did Valant do it?
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I don't believe he's honestly a killer. Valant just doesn't have it in him. And the way he was suffering all those years, if he had really done it, I'm sure he would have just figured he deserved it. But he seems pretty upset that so many people thought he did it, and Zak vanished to protect him. Also, after Zak falsely confessed to the crime for his sake, he honestly seemed like he wanted to come clean. There was no real reason to do so falsely. Admitting that he altered the crime scene would still make him look bad in the eyes of the public and may even get him some jail time, and the only thing to gain from that is relief from his guilty conscious and to know he finally did the right thing. Both of those would not be gained if he falsely claimed that Magnifi killed himself.
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Re: Did Valant do it?
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is innocent, it's understandable why he framed Zak. Zak is a jerk.(Why isn't there a Zak smilie...?)
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Re: Did Valant do it?
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Miyako Chinatsu wrote:
Well, even if is innocent, it's understandable why he framed Zak. Zak is a jerk.
(Why isn't there a Zak smilie...?)
is innocent, it's understandable why he framed Zak. Zak is a jerk.(Why isn't there a Zak smilie...?)
I swear there was a Zak jerk smile smilie somewhere...
Well, I don't think Valant did it. Even if he did, that guy knows a lot about framing someone for a magician.
Re: Did Valant do it?
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TheSteelSamurai wrote:
Valant removed the gunpowder residue. He altered the crime scene to make it look like a murder that his partner was guilty of.
I don't believe he's honestly a killer. Valant just doesn't have it in him. And the way he was suffering all those years, if he had really done it, I'm sure he would have just figured he deserved it. But he seems pretty upset that so many people thought he did it, and Zak vanished to protect him. Also, after Zak falsely confessed to the crime for his sake, he honestly seemed like he wanted to come clean. There was no real reason to do so falsely. Admitting that he altered the crime scene would still make him look bad in the eyes of the public and may even get him some jail time, and the only thing to gain from that is relief from his guilty conscious and to know he finally did the right thing. Both of those would not be gained if he falsely claimed that Magnifi killed himself.
I don't believe he's honestly a killer. Valant just doesn't have it in him. And the way he was suffering all those years, if he had really done it, I'm sure he would have just figured he deserved it. But he seems pretty upset that so many people thought he did it, and Zak vanished to protect him. Also, after Zak falsely confessed to the crime for his sake, he honestly seemed like he wanted to come clean. There was no real reason to do so falsely. Admitting that he altered the crime scene would still make him look bad in the eyes of the public and may even get him some jail time, and the only thing to gain from that is relief from his guilty conscious and to know he finally did the right thing. Both of those would not be gained if he falsely claimed that Magnifi killed himself.
Remember the note he received that told him to shoot Magnifi...one request that he couldn't refuse. Also, it's a powder burn, not residue, I think. It's pretty goddamn hard to remove a burn within a few minutes.
Then again... he IS a magician...
Re: Did Valant do it?
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Capybara wrote:
Wasn't there an explanation for this?
I seem to remember that the hospital room was only five feet wide, so bullet residue would've been there even if there was a murderer?
Or maybe I'm just making stuff up.
I seem to remember that the hospital room was only five feet wide, so bullet residue would've been there even if there was a murderer?
Or maybe I'm just making stuff up.
Five feet wide? When does that get brought up, and what does it have to do with anything?
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Re: Did Valant do it?
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Figaro wrote:
Capybara wrote:
Wasn't there an explanation for this?
I seem to remember that the hospital room was only five feet wide, so bullet residue would've been there even if there was a murderer?
Or maybe I'm just making stuff up.
I seem to remember that the hospital room was only five feet wide, so bullet residue would've been there even if there was a murderer?
Or maybe I'm just making stuff up.
Five feet wide? When does that get brought up, and what does it have to do with anything?
The fact there was no ammunition powder around the wound if he commited suicide.
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More importantly, narratively it makes no sense. Phoenix already suspected Valant for the murder for 7 years, so if the game wanted you to think he was guilty all they had to do was leave it alone. It doesn't make sense from a story standpoint for Valant to bring up the suicide story at the end of the game if it isn't the truth.
Re: Did Valant do it?
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GigaHand wrote:
Remember the note he received that told him to shoot Magnifi...one request that he couldn't refuse. Also, it's a powder burn, not residue, I think. It's pretty goddamn hard to remove a burn within a few minutes.
Then again... he IS a magician...
Then again... he IS a magician...
Doesn't mean he had to do it. Zak didn't exactly do what was implied. Valant just doesn't strike me as the type who could easily murder someone.
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Croik wrote:
It has been brought up in the contradiction thread before that maybe the hospital room was so small that there was no way for someone to shoot him from more than 2 meters away. If that were the case it wouldn't make a difference for the police to mention it. It's not clarified in the case but it makes sense.
More importantly, narratively it makes no sense. Phoenix already suspected Valant for the murder for 7 years, so if the game wanted you to think he was guilty all they had to do was leave it alone. It doesn't make sense from a story standpoint for Valant to bring up the suicide story at the end of the game if it isn't the truth.
More importantly, narratively it makes no sense. Phoenix already suspected Valant for the murder for 7 years, so if the game wanted you to think he was guilty all they had to do was leave it alone. It doesn't make sense from a story standpoint for Valant to bring up the suicide story at the end of the game if it isn't the truth.
Actually, it does make sense if Valant brings up the possibly fake suicide story. Because of Vera's trial, both defense and prosecution would have had to look into the shooting of Magnifi Gramarye. Valant, worrying of his own safety, tells Phoenix the suicide story so he won't be suspected of murder.
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Re: Did Valant do it?
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Spoiler: Valant "Confessing"
I'm guessing they don't mention the burn marks because it would give it away. That does happen frequently in the games. It's not a nice answer, but it's logical.
However, I have found info on forensic websites that says that certain close distances CAN produce burn marks. So I think that point still stands.
I believe Valant's story. I doubt the authors would really trick us UNLESS they're going to mention this in GS5. If they do, then well I'm wrong. But I doubt they'd pull a fast one like that. If they did, how on earth would we know what was the truth?
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Re: Did Valant do it?
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Personally, I'm more curious about whose bullet struck Thalassa.
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Re: Did Valant do it?
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And about the script...there's one part where Valant says, "The shock of what I had been told overwhelmed me(or something like that) and I heard a gunshot." He could have still shot Magnifi, but he just didn't tell Phoenix.
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Re: Did Valant do it?
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Re: Did Valant do it?
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Anyway, here's a new discussion that fits into this topic: Did Valant shoot Thalassa? This might explain why he didn't aknowledge Lamiroir as Thalassa.
Re: Did Valant do it?
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Miyako Chinatsu wrote:
Actually, it does make sense if Valant brings up the possibly fake suicide story. Because of Vera's trial, both defense and prosecution would have had to look into the shooting of Magnifi Gramarye. Valant, worrying of his own safety, tells Phoenix the suicide story so he won't be suspected of murder.
But Vera's trial didn't *prove* anything. She admitted to forging the evidence, but Kristoph never technically admitted to being involved. That trial was to prove Vera's innocence not prove Kristoph's guilt; he might have had a separate trial afterwards but we don't know that. Really, no new evidence was accepted by the court concerning Magnifi's murder, and with Zak dead, they don't have a reason to reopen that case unless Valant himself admits to his part in the crime.
Which he said he was going to do. It doesn't make sense for Valant to throw Phoenix off with a fake story and then march to the police and tell them the same thing when there was a chance the case would remain untouched. Unless you think he was lying about confessing too, but like GL pointed out he didn't show any psyche locks.
Re: Did Valant do it?
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Re: Did Valant do it?
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Croik wrote:
Miyako Chinatsu wrote:
Actually, it does make sense if Valant brings up the possibly fake suicide story. Because of Vera's trial, both defense and prosecution would have had to look into the shooting of Magnifi Gramarye. Valant, worrying of his own safety, tells Phoenix the suicide story so he won't be suspected of murder.
But Vera's trial didn't *prove* anything. She admitted to forging the evidence, but Kristoph never technically admitted to being involved. That trial was to prove Vera's innocence not prove Kristoph's guilt; he might have had a separate trial afterwards but we don't know that. Really, no new evidence was accepted by the court concerning Magnifi's murder, and with Zak dead, they don't have a reason to reopen that case unless Valant himself admits to his part in the crime.
Which he said he was going to do. It doesn't make sense for Valant to throw Phoenix off with a fake story and then march to the police and tell them the same thing when there was a chance the case would remain untouched. Unless you think he was lying about confessing too, but like GL pointed out he didn't show any psyche locks.
True, Vera's trial didn't really prove anything much, but her case was connected to Magnifi's shooting. Valant was worried that Magnifi's murder would be investigated again. Therefore, he provides a fake suicide story to throw off Phoenix.
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Re: Did Valant do it?
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I... altered the scene of
his suicide.
I rest my case.
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Re: Did Valant do it?
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book__wyrm wrote:
Valant:
I... altered the scene of
his suicide.
I rest my case.
I... altered the scene of
his suicide.
I rest my case.
He still could have been lying, though...
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Re: Did Valant do it?
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Miyako Chinatsu wrote:
book__wyrm wrote:
Valant:
I... altered the scene of
his suicide.
I rest my case.
I... altered the scene of
his suicide.
I rest my case.
He still could have been lying, though...
Psyche locks?
Quote:
Anyway, here's a new discussion that fits into this topic: Did Valant shoot Thalassa? This might explain why he didn't aknowledge Lamiroir as Thalassa.
Even better: You know the whole love triangle rumor thingamajig about Valant, Zak, and Thalassa right? What if Valant wanted to shoot Zak but shot Thalassa instead?
Oh god I hear the plot bunnies crying.
Re: Did Valant do it?
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.Storm Parakaitz wrote:
Miyako Chinatsu wrote:
book__wyrm wrote:
Valant:
I... altered the scene of
his suicide.
I rest my case.
I... altered the scene of
his suicide.
I rest my case.
He still could have been lying, though...
Psyche locks?
Spoiler: 2-2
"I, like, have nothing to do with this murder thing, anyway."
Re: Did Valant do it?
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GigaHand wrote:
.Storm Parakaitz wrote:
Psyche locks?
Spoiler: 2-2
ZVARRI! I SEE IT. I SEE THE CONTRADICTION IN MY OWN ARGUMENT.
The stick did all of it. That's why Psyche Locks didn't appear. Valant's stick killed Magnifi.
I'm right, aren't I?
Srsly: No logical reason for Valant to be lying about it being a suicide; that's the bigger picture here. You say it's to protect himself from guilt? I don't agree, because the man went through enough bullshit trying to cover things up.
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