Johnny, for the last time, I'm on your side

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I know, i was just adding to that part.

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Last edited by Johnny Rotan on Sat Aug 22, 2009 12:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

Okay guys, I don't think anyone going anywhere debating the definition of "canon". In most cases all it refers to is fact: what actually happened, who said what, who killed who etc. In the case of pairings, all we can rely on is the fact of "Were those people together?"

"Canon couple" doesn't have to mean they are true loves forever. It doesn't even have to mean they like each other (i.e. we know Mr. Hawthorne and Morgan were married and had kids together, making them a canon couple, but we know that doesn't mean they liked each other). It's just a way of saying "they were together in canon." And Phoenix and Iris WERE together in canon, for a short peroid time, under strange circumstances. The fact that they dated is canon and I think everyone agrees with that much.

Whether they were a "true" or "honest" or "loving" couple is a different matter. But let us consider the debate of whether or not they were a "canon couple" over. Everyone knows the facts, so arguing over what you think a word should mean is not productive.

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My last post was addressing if they were truly in love or not...

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That's fine. I'm just saying, in general, I think we've seen enough discussion of what "canon pairing" means.

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Ironic, the only canon proven 'dates' Phoenix and Iris went on were lunch outings at the uni. The others are just a logical assumption.
And there a huge list of implied outings by Phoenix and Maya which aren't 'lunch' or even dinner outings. There's the Steel Samurai movies, the boat trip/s and more but I really can't see any point of continuing to argue on such a totally pointless tangent. So, er, back on topic
Larry/Iris?

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No. I've suspended the debate as the only opposition. I will resume it sometime later on, but you'll have to wait to conclude this that interrupted it.

Now, Icer, I feel as if Phoenix and Iris had a true loving relationship.

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[/quote]

I think you're working from a faulty assumption: since when does Dahlia care about building up evidence and resolve? She was already resolved to kill Phoenix from day one, and once she realized that Iris wasn't going to succeed, all she had to do was bully her old boyfriend into what she needed. Dahlia can plan an elaborate crime but as far as we know she only needs a few days or hours to do it (like in 3-4). I don't think you can use her supposed preparation time to prove at what point Iris fell in love with Phoenix.

Though personally, I'm inclined to believe it was rather quickly. Iris was born in a village of mostly women and moved right to a monestary. By the time she met Phoenix he was already in love with "her" and, as Dahlia said, trying to tell the whole campus they were a couple destined to be together forever. He may have been a dork but for a girl who had probably never had a boyfriend before, I can see how it would be easy to be swayed by him, especially when his view of love was so romantic (and possbily non-threatening - but there's an entire other thread devoted to their possible sex life).

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Dahlia held off on the murder for six months. Obviously there was something hindering her. If she could get the necklace back by persuasion, she wouldn't have murdered (resolve...because murdering Phoenix would against cast suspicion on her). Therefore, she didn't notice Iris' feelings.

Remember, she had broken off from her old boyfriend for six months before she stole the poison. (Doug says she stole again yesterday). So obtaining it wasn't as easy anymore

Dahlia can't plan that kind of a crime in hours or days. She can't come up with a flawless testimony in only "days" before the trial, so she's obviously not perfect.

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There's a difference between going out as friends...and going out as an item. Phoenix in his trial made it clear they were a couple and they went on lunch outings making them dates and thats assuming there's nothing else they went on. Phoenix and Maya however are just friends since canon says nothing else meaning they just go out for meals. Besides she lives with Phoenix it's only understandable they eat together often.

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All we know is that after Dahlia realized that Iris was in love with Phoenix, she decided to go through with killing him after all. The order of events were "Iris falls in love with Phoenix, Dahlia notices, Dahlia decides to kill Phoenix." That much is canon, yes. But you're saying that "1 and 2 must have happened pretty quickly because it would have taken Dahlia a long time to prepare for Phoenix's murder." That, I don't agree with.

In 3-4 Terry escaped from prison, and within a matter of hours Dahlia set up an elaborate murder framing him for her own sister's murder. That case is proof that when Dahlia makes up her mind she's capable of acting quickly and decisively, and I'm inclined to believe that murdering her sister, moving the body, setting up her camera, impersonating Valerie for Terry and finally testifying against him are all more difficult than stealing some chemicals from a college lab and planting them in a bottle of cold medicine.

I'm not saying you're wrong about when Iris fell for Phoenix, I just think it went more like "Iris falls for Phoenix, Dahlia doesn't notice until much later, and then she decides to kill Phoenix." What took Dahlia so long? Dunno, but I can't imagine she spent all that time dreaming up a plan as simple as "steal poison."

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And let me guess, you're going to cite the "plan" Dahlia came up with for Diego's murder right after?

No, they were both impromptu, and they both almost failed.
Besides, the time it took for Dahlia to come up with the plan itself is irrelevant. It's how long it took her to carry it out...

Being Iris' double means she had to stay in Hazakura masquerading as a nun, and if Iris didn't want her to know, then she couldn't have done it easily. All that time, she only had circumstantial evidence that could only build up, seeing as Hazakura is a significant distance from Ivy Uni. Remember, she would still prefer persuasion over murder.

Then, having to steal poison from under the nose of a former suspicious boyfriend all whilst under police surveillance, mysteriously impersonating Iris as a double during a lunch date to steal a bottle of poison, that's not something that can be accomplished in one day, or a few days. At least it would take some weeks/months...

It's fun to argue with an admin on a debate thread, but I noticed that your arguments are getting progressively more and more difficult to kill.

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Brief interjection here, maybe Iris was trying to hide it from Dahlia or Dahlia was staying out of it. Naturally to keep her disguise safe she'd have to stay clear of the two so that Feenie wouldn't realise there was this sister Fake!Dahlia hadn't told him about. And Iris may have wanted to protect Phoenix from Dahlia and so tried to protect him by keeping Dahlia misinformed shall we say about their situation.

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@Croik: Are you going to respond, or should I scrap my pre-planned responses? No offense, I understand that you're unimaginably busy being the admin and all.

@Reemosiku: I give up. It's simply not possible to argue that something isn't possible unless you use physical boundaries. Since humanity doesn't really possess such boundaries within emotions, I realize my case is a failed one. I did have a response for you post, so if you still want to see it, then just ask.

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But that's my point. When Dahlia decides "THIS PERSON MUST DIE" she doesn't sit around, she comes up with something immediately and carries it out. She did it to Valerie and Diego, and after her plan to kill Phoenix with poison failed she acted on impulse again and killed Doug. Which is the reason she keeps getting caught! There's no indication that she took any more time carrying out her plot against Phoenix than any of her other victims.



But this is Dahlia we're talking about--I don't think she cares to have 100% proof of anything before acting. If she was willing to kill Phoenix on day 1, it's hard to imagine that six months later she'd say "I'd better be absolutely sure Iris is going to fail before doing anything." And honestly, I think a few days is plenty of time. It doesn't take more than a few minutes to go into a building, take something, and leave; it's a college campus, not a fortress. All she had to do was wait for an opening.

Not that I ever stole from a college classroom, nope.

Anyway, this is kind of an awkward debate, because my position is that it's irrelevant to the topic of P/I as a couple, making it off topic >.> But since it's not a contradiction there isn't a thread set up for debates of this kind! I hope you guys don't mind, but we can take it to PM if it's too distracting.

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I'd like to see it if you're amenable to posting it. Would you prefer for me not to respond to it, though, since you'd like to end the debate? (I tend to get a little overboard when I form an argument, so if I read your response and see some you've written some contestable points, I might not be able to resist posting a reply, lol). Speech team will do that to a person I really enjoyed debating with you, though, Taffy, so if you'd ever like another friendly spar, let me know. It was a lot of fun!

Do you have any evidence to support Larry and Iris are likely to be compatible? I'm not interested in debating this, I'm just wondering if there's any reason to view it as more than a crack pairing. (Since the last thing either character needs is yet another breakup.)

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Apparently, YoungFeenie/Iris is really cute to him, and YoungFeenie is a lot like LauriceLarry to him. So...

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I'd say Feenie was more pathetic way back when but sure I can see similarities.

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My stance on P/I:

They're incompatible. In my opinion, based on Feenie, primarily, was that they weren't in love. They were so immature at the time and don't you go to me and say "But Sara! They were 19/20 at that time! They were soooo mature enough by then" because no.

Iris had no chance to meet any other man, Phoenix was her FIRST romantic interest since she possibly left Kurain. Men obviously don't come to the temple since the Fey clan centers around female members. Phoenix was maybe the first man she had contact with since she was very young. She obviously must have been very emotionally immature in terms of relationships. Further more, Iris was an overboard romantic (as I say far too much but it's truee) she had a horrible problem of idealising things. She still believed that she could save Dahlia after all that happenned. She still believed that Dahlia would become just how she was when they were children. Not only did Feenie idealise her as "the perfect woman" in his mind. But she idealised him as "the perfect man." She didn't know anything about relationships. How could she judge whether she truley loved him or not?

Phoenix was obviously very childish. He wasn't in love with Iris. He was in love with the thought of being in love. He's just like the modern Larry. People have already argued about how he was obviously somewhat deluded, so I won't drag on that. But the point is... the two of them could not have worked out. I'm sure when you all were in love for the first time you thought "oh wow, this guy/girl is the PERFECT man/woman for me." but soon you realise, that they weren't. Maybe it takes a few more tries to realise, that you can't fall in head first. You realise...



I feel that quote really shows what was wrong with their relationship. Phoenix wouldn't dare to question who "Iris" or "Dahlia" really was even when all these clues were right infront of them. He was "apathetic" about it in a way you wouldn't normally think. By T&T, Phoenix obviously matured into a more collected person. But the question is did Iris? She didn't seem to mature at all. She seemed exactly the same as she did 5 years ago. And it's not as though she had plently of chances to date. Even if she was more emotionally mature, there comes the problem if they were ever actually compatible.

As for Phoenix visiting Iris. First of all, anyone would be curious about the lie she kept from him the entire time they were "dating." Also, he was her lawyer so: 1. He must have felt guilty about getting her into jail. I would at least. and 2. There would need to be another trial to decide how long she would stay in jail for "guilty as accomplice to murder." I think Feenie's not that much of a jerk where he'd just ditch her after putting her into jail. :( (Apollo obviously is since he DITCHED MACHI.) And about Pearl slapping Phoenix while there, uh... Pearl is insanely jealous? Pearl gets angry if Phoenix talks to ANY other female besides Maya.



god dammit, why is this all about P/I? I wanted to start a DahKris rant (I despise it like burning fire) but I'll leave that for after someone replies on this topic again. I don't want to make this post even LONGER than it already is. Why is this thread so P/I centric? sob. I don't even like debating about that pairing.

Sorry if whatever I say is unclear to you. I have troubles showing what I mean using words. No words can perfectly capture the "essence" of how I feel. No matter how big your vocabulary, you'll never actually be able to truly explain what you feel.

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So why didn't you start a fresh debate about DahKris then, instead of beating a dead horse with P/I? (debating a crack pairing would be interesting).

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I want to see this Dahkris rant.


I second this.

I would like to read this too. It's just a crack pairing, and I've never known anyone to actively "hate" it. I am interested.



Agreed/thirded. He is so huggable/lovable to me ;_;

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Because when someone brings up a debate, it is logical that people want to contribute until the topic has reached a reasonable end. If you go earlier in the thread you'll find segments of other pairings that were debated for a long time before everyone moved on (I think we've done P/E vs P/M, Diego/Mia etc...)

No one's forcing you to debate a pairing you don't like. It's perfectly acceptable to propose a new topic. In fact I'll take you up on Dahlia/Kristoph!

I don't like the pairing. Can't say I hate it like burning, but it seems to me that it's based on nothing more than "these two people are both evil, so let's put them together." Under that reasoning I think Dahlia would make a better match with Matt, because the way Dahlia and Kristoph act on their criminal tendencies is completely different to the point where I don't see how they have anything in common. I'm not sure if they could even bond over their hatred of Phoenix because Dahlia's feelings towards him are pure disgust, while Kristoph's are centered around jealousy. If she confided in Kristoph as to how pathetic she found Phoenix, I think he would just take it as "If Phoenix is that pathetic, what does that make YOU for "losing" to him?" and she'd end up triggering all the insecurities that led Kristoph to forgery and murder in the first place.

Of course, in canon Dahlia is dead before Kristoph has the chance to commit his crimes against Phoenix, but I would argue Kristoph's jealousy of Phoenix and his career must have started before the Gramarye case for him to have acted as rashly as he did (so the point is still "mostly" valid). But that is another thing to take into account if we're going to debate DahKris--is the assumption that any relationship they had was before Dahlia's incarceration, when while they were in college? While she was in prison and he not? Some AU where she escaped and wasn't executed? I think the timeline makes a big impact on how you would argue for or against them.

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It's a bad thing to believe people can change for the better?

If Dahlia just went around causing trouble for her own amusement or whatever, you might have a point, but there's no indication that she ever acted particularly criminally unless she felt threatened. Further, I really doubt Iris assumed Dahlia would magically become a saint just by getting the necklace back; she was just trying to end her sister's habit of covering up her last crime with another. Considering the options she had available, her choice is understandable.

It's a lot easier to look at someone we only see when people are trying to send her to prison (in which case she's understandably a bitch) and just write her off as a lost cause when she isn't your best friend and only real family left.

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Yey!!!! debating pairings huh.

Grossberg/Lemons

Deliciously sweet or Unfortunate tragedy?
Or is it deeper then any pairings conceived before?
Hmmmmmm? you know it is.
Discuss! :3

Hmm...not as deep as Moe and Pi! *is shot*

Edgeworth/Viola anyone?

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Hmm... Intresting...

Emo lawyer with emo-looking girl...

I like it. It's now my second favorite Edgeworth pairing (right after )

Yay!

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The point is, she didn't change. 3-5 was her chance to do so, to prove to Phoenix that his 'perfect relationship fantasy' he attached to her was originally based in a reality. That big 'relationship ideals story' he believed in obsessively went way beyond just 'I love you', 'you are not a murderer' and 'you look attractive'. He'll kill himself over it or allow himself to be killed, before betraying her, like Terry in 3-4 [when Dahlia obviously deluded him with a similar story surrounding the bottle.]

Notice he does the same thing with Edgeworth's words and actions back in the class trial in 4th grade, starts obsessive belief in a 'justice ideals concept' and obsession with Edgeworth in which he believes mutually shares in these beliefs. After he proves Edgeworth is 'not a murderer' and believes in him in court, he expects Edgeworth to change back to the ideals in the 'justice story' he believed in that Edgeworth communicated to him. When he doesn't, Phoenix simply doesn't care if he's dead. It's only after Edgeworth proves he's redeemed back to the ideals central to the 'justice concept' they connected over in 4th grade that he can again be Phoenix's canon-labelled partner in any sense.

3-5 was pretty much Iris' 'opportunity' for a 2-4 to Phoenix. But not only is she doing the same old things, which 'just happen' to be Demon Prosecutor style crimes of concealing lies, covering for murderers, actively allowing injustice to prevail when she has power to help stop it etc. (and these crimes Phoenix finds so abhorrent stem from her genuine belief/value system, alien to Phoenix) but Real Iris is simply incapable of the core ideals in the 'perfect relationship concept' Phoenix fell in love with. She literally CAN'T support and dedicate herself to helping him, or anybody else, to the death. She gets scared and runs away.

[Oh, and the writers even things up, Iris may not know Phoenix believed in her in 3-1, but Phoenix doesn't know this, and Iris know she herself wasn't a murderer, whereas Edgeworth suffered 15 years believing he was.]

If Phoenix still believed Iris had once shared the 'perfect relationship' ideals he so desperately wanted to believe in, he would have gotten upset/mad she didn't revert back to them, like he did at Edgeworth pre-2-4 over the 'justice ideals'.

The fact Phoenix can forgive Iris, rather than just wishing she was dead like Edgeworth, is PROOF he himself realises real Iris could never and was never really anything of his 'perfect relationship ideals fantasy' at all. Else, true to character, he would have been mad at the pain she caused him by betraying the 'relationship ideals bond' they USED to share which he obsessively believed in (Edgeworth pre-2-4 with the 'justice ideals concept' Phoenix was obsessed with after 4th grade) and NOT forgiven her until she'd redeemed to the mutual 'relationship ideals fantasy' which bonded them. But he knows she never can and never will. It was a mistake to ever have attached 'Iris' to his fantasy.

Phoenix's forgiveness of Iris is basically proof that he never fell in love with Real Iris at all, and he himself recognises it. Iris never was the person in his 'perfect fantasy ideals' story he was obsessed with, and it was only he and Dahlia who deluded him into thinking she was.

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I'm saying both. :3
It's obvious he has a beautiful affection for lemons. Perhaps it was his first true love because he compares the lemons to the days of his youth. :P

I.....really don't know what to say to that....



Nick/Maya is one of my favourite couples, but I really don't see it as an actually romance. Which is annoying. And like Herr blondie said, she lives in the office, so they would go out together often - as friends.

And as for Larry/Iris? hm....Larry definetly loves Iris, but for some reason I can't remember anything Iris says about Larry. What does she say? Does anybody know? I've forgotten. And we need the canon to debate this.

And now to throw in a new pairing:

TigreXViola, anyone?

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icer - So your argument as to why Phoenix and Iris couldn't possibly work out is because Phoenix didn't react exactly the same way to her as he did to Edgeworth.

That's. Just. ...Yeah.

Besides the fact that Edgeworth and Iris had very different motivations and reactions behind their "betrayals", and the simple fact that it's unfair to compare a story of redemption that spanned two games to one that covered one case in the first place, there's this:


...except Phoenix's response to Iris' confession completely contradicts this. He says flat-out that Iris was always the person he believed she was.

Even if you insist on comparing Iris' story to Edgeworth's, Phoenix was pissed at Edgeworth in JfA because he thought Edgey quit when he lost his winning streak, but was pretty quick to forgive and put his trust in him once he learned that wasn't the case. That's the same thing that happened at the end of 3-5; once Phoenix learned the truth about Iris, he quickly forgave her.

As far as Phoenix's sort of whiny "You betrayed me, I hate you, you should've stayed dead!" explosion in JfA, maybe he grew up a bit in that year between 2-4 and 3-5? If Phoenix responded the same way to Iris, it would sort of negate his character development from 2-4.

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No, but you probably misread on purpose.
That's the tip of the iceberg. I could list several hundred pages of why Phoenix/Iris would be 'unlikely to work out' and why I sincerely don't think the writers meant it to be canon implied, most of them far more obvious reasons than that one. That's just another 'reason I don't think future Phoenix/Iris was meant to be canon implied, or imagined by the writers' as at all likely to happen'. Iris' role in GS3 is NOT as the happy end 'girlfriend' and that was NOT the purpose and motivations for which the writers invented her. (See, fans of other pairings never make these unreasonable type of claims about their favoured pairings.)

[There are far more parallels between the Edgeworth story and the Iris story that I didn't list as well.]

Inspired by an incident surrounding a murder, growing up away from their parents/adopted, and motivated into 'Demon Prosecutor' style activities under the influence of said murder involving a close relative [father/sister]? Being replaced by a metaphoric Demon in court? Edgeworth once held the 'justice ideals story' Phoenix became obsessed with so Phoenix thinks he deceived him, but Iris didn't ever hold the 'relationship ideals story' and it was a lie by Dahlia which is why he forgives Iris not Edgeworth?

Iris' story with Phoenix spans 5 years (still more if we add in her background in 3-4 pre-Phoenix and her stated life history. It's irrelevant if the 5 years of action was contained in one game via flashbacks. Phoenix's 'real' life is not cut into 'games'. 5 years is far longer than the time between 1-4/1-5 and 2-4.



Phoenix:
You really are the person
I always thought you were.

Phoenix:
Even after Dahlia Hawthorne
was found guilty...

Phoenix:
I still believed in you.

What, she 'doesn't poop?' Also notice it's always past tense with Iris. 'Believed.' (This is also in response to her confessing her love to him, not, not exactly anything inspiring present mutual feelings is it?)
He says this about 'Even after Dahlia Hawthorne was found guilty'. which means he'd already ditched his 'fantasy relationship' rather dramatically by destroying the bottle symbolising it during the trial. The bottle was the contract object of the relationship, pretty much. [This is made clear both with his refusal to give it back and its symbolics to Terry, told a similar/same story by Dahlia.] After that he's stopped believing in the 'relationship' and the 'relationship ideals story' surrounding it. Only then can Mia get Dahlia declared guilty. The one thing he belives after that is that that person at the trial wans't his girlfriend, maybe she was a fake. So at this point he believes this:

-Maybe that wasn't his 'girlfriend' at the trial, or at least, not the person who turned up to all those dates.
-The person he dated wasn't a murderer. [This is his latent Defense Attorney Intuition, he believes this about all his clients.] Notice 'person'. He no longer thinks of her as 'girlfriend'.
-But he has ALREADY ditched loyalty to the 'fantasy relationship ideals concept' during the trial, before Mia could get Dahlia guilty
-And he knows Real 'Girlfriend' also ditched loyalty to it by abandoning him at the trial. He no longer believes in the 'fantasy relationship concept' and knows Real (ex)'Girlfriend' doesn't any more either as she betrayed it.
-The question is whether 'girlfriend' ever really shared in it with him in the first place [like Edgeworth, and so betrayed him on a larger scale] or if that was a delusion imposed by someone else.
-He then 'forgets' her, until he sees her picture and remembers that Dahlia Hawthorne was executed, but this person is alive.

In 3-5, it becomes clear Iris NEVER shared in the 'relationship ideals concept' he became so obsessed with and fell in love with. If it had genuinely been from Iris' mutual invention and belief, he might have 'loved' her as part of it, in their mutual observance of it. But it becomes clear she never did. Attaching the obsession/love from the 'relationship ideals concept' to Iris herself was a mistake, but not one of Iris' own malicious deception. This is why he forgives her, but knows she is not and never was the girlfriend he so desired, with which he could share the ideals in the 'relationship ideals fantasy' he was so obsessed with.

Hmm, Dahlia/Kristoph. It's a crack pairing. I don't think anybody takes it seriously as having happened. Kristoph could 'channel' Dahlia through his Devil Mark or something. A mutuality of poison and evil.

And I'm still curious in 'reasons as basis for Larry/Iris being genuinely compatible'. I guess the Larry/Iris fans left this thread.


There is nothing to prove Maya lives at the office. Pre- 1-2, she lives in her own apartment, and Mia owns the office, so it's not there. Mia wants her to hold evidence for her, and that would defeat the purpose. Maya lives alone.

It's possible, I guess, that she may have lived there after Mia's death, but nothing ever actually suggests this. And if Maya indeed lives at the office, then since Phoenix is still using it in game 4, that has some interesting Hobo/Maya implications... [Besides, the Mia office was rented, and Phoenix doesn't really need it for the 'talent agency' for the last 7 years, a waste of money.]

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Depends... does he rub them on his nipples, like a fruit juicer?

I hope he doesn't do any office work shirtless before their nightly trysts. I'm sure the papercuts would be hell.

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But I think it has something to do with him realizing that he somehow had feelings for Iris. After all, he had fallen in love with his so called "Dollie", which Iris openly admitted to be her, and I think that's why he found er easy to forgive.

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Last edited by jptorres26 on Sat Aug 29, 2009 2:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

The mental image!

What happened to spontaneous arrivals?



Seeing as how Maya and Edgeworth have both been around for tons longer than Iris (Edgeworth actually going back to Phoenix's fourth grade), and nothing has happened yet either...well...you see, you just kind of metaphorically committed seppuku.



When he was a kid, overzealous at that too. You see, when a child is exposed to a traumatic incident scarring him for life, it alters his personality...drastically. In this he became a lot more realistic in his views. Finding people guilty represents his trust in the police, while Phoenix desperately defending his clients represents belief in the client himself. I don't know about you, but I'd rather trust the police.

Now Iris, she didn't tell him because she thought she wasn't worthy. Oh ho ho, now, tell me, even if Iris did tell him about her little secret, would you forgive her? I don't think so.



No...that's not right. Phoenix forgot about her until recently. We established that in our other debate...and so the story itself would span five years, but not contain five years of plot twists and whatnot. It contains six months of solid story.

And by logic, you should realize that Edgeworth's story spanned relatively closely to that period of time.



Semantics semantics semantics!!!
So, how would you word a current love confession?

Phoenix:
Even after Dahlia Hawthorne
was found guilty...

Phoenix:
I still believe in you.

Now that's some terrible grammar right there.



So you think a relationship like that rested on the existence of an item??? So that if somehow, by accident, Phoenix lost the bottle, the relationship would be over?[/i. So that if someone lost their wedding ring, their marriage would be [i]over??



Phoenix: I don't know. Maybe she was a fake or something?

Two things
1) Was a fake meant that he didn't think the girl on the stand was the girl he dated.
2) And this statement was made after he swallowed the bottle, after Dahlia got arrested.



No. No. No. He went to Hazakura to dig to the truth of 3-1. Everything had been explicitly revealed to him, except the lingering notion that "The Dollie I know could have never said those things about me!" And his verb is in present tense. This also gives the impression that he didn't care if she was a murderer or, but whether she was USING him or not. I remember posting almost word for word this argument on our other debate thread, something you never answered.



Which Ironically, is Pearl's concept of Phoenix and Maya. Huh.



I don't either. Does this mean I'll be hopelessly single all my life? (You don't know me well enough, so that's a rhetorical question). Point is, relationship ideals aren't necessary to fuel true love, which we can't define anyways.



Uh............baseless conjecture. Dismissed.

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Then by all means, please explain what you meant, preferably in simple terms, without resorting to an overly-verbose, 3000+ word essay like you always seem to do.


On second thought, nevermind. When you feel like coming down off your high horse, checking your own personal shipping bias at the door, and learning how to debate without making idiotic comments like this one (yeah, I've never once heard other shippers say their favorite pairings are canon when they aren't, nope), look me up.

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