The purpose of this thread is not to determine which couples are canon, canon implied, or intended by the writers as likely to happen. If it was we'd have to stop all together, because from the look of AJ it seems that the writers do not "intend" to pair Phoenix up with anyone. Plus it's just not fair to play the "I am in the writer's brain" argument, because unless you *are* the writer you can't know what he/she intended. (Unless you have interviews to back you up)



This thread is also not about attacking other fans of pairings (especially with claims that are blatantly untrue - lots of shippers confuse the meaning of "canon implied" for their benefit). If you can't argue the pairing without also argue the fans behind it you don't belong in this thread.

That goes for you too Taffy. There's no need to get snippy.

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^ Franzise was asking if my 'sole argument' to why Phoenix/Iris wouldn't 'work out' was that, so I was explaining that it wasn't. And I was also explaining why I was debating against this pairing, which is a different reason than 'I hate Iris' or 'I want to annoy Phoenix/Iris fans.' [Maybe shouldn't have been in the, um, 'debate']


Yeah, that wasn't a good comment, and it was not inspired by most Phoenix/Iris fans. Sorry. (There does seem to be quite a lot of people who played the game and assume Iris is the 'canon girlfriend', their use of canon, by default, not because they actually like the pairing.)


Phoenix didn't see Edgeworth for about 15 years after 9th grade, and only met Maya 3 years previously. And the 'it hasn't happened yet, so it never will' argument isn't supportable. Besides, we're 'debating' Iris, not Phoenix/Maya or Phoenix/Edgeworth.

Actually, maybe I'll just write that essay, and everyone can ignore or flame as they choose. I'm getting a little sick of the 'Iris' issue. (Now, why is it that interesting issues are always so controversial? And I like coming up with theories, but the only way to get to discuss them is to argue about them..)

Not really. Having Phoenix apparently unattached in the action of the game shouldn't be interpreted as a deliberate statement by the writers that 'it's impossible Phoenix will ever be in a romantic relationship with anyone'. Besides, PW3 was originally going to be Phoenix's ending, it was Capcom who decided Phoenix had to appear in GS4, sans-cast.

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Right now, there are no canon Phoenix pairings. (Canon by CapCom, at least) We'll leave it at that.

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I got a pairing! Furio Tigre/Angel Starr, anyone?

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That cannot happen. Furio Tigre is currently incarcerated and most likely on death row, while Angel Starr is roaming the streets disgraced and unemployed. Huh...

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Well, I guess Angel could get her job back as the "Cough-Up Queen" after Gant was convicted.

Plus, she could use her seductiveness to interrogate Tigre about the whole Glen Elg poisoning after he's convicted...

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Ah, didn't think of that. You're quite resourceful.
OK, debate this one... /wife

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You forgot about and . Plum and Winfred and Zak / Thalissa are too.

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Oh Ron, Winfred and Zak are actually Phoenix
makes sense

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No, Johnny, I said there are no canon Phoenix pairings.

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Oooh ok i read that wrong <(Logical-Naba's avi would work better for this)

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Last edited by Johnny Rotan on Sat Aug 29, 2009 10:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

She's cheating on him.

Not that it's "impossible" that Phoenix could ever have another romantic relationship in any context, but as you just pointed out, T&T was supposed to be the end of Phoenix, and it closed with him a single man. He returns in AJ single. He could very well remain single for the rest of canon as we know it (and some people have argued that would be the best for the series and the fandom). Maybe the writers want us to assume he dates off screen, maybe they don't, maybe they want us to expect he'll be in a new relationship in a later game--maybe they want us to assume a lot of things. But that's why we don't play the "Guess what the writers really intended but never said!" game. At least, not in this thread~

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Does anyone find the thought that people HAVE to pair AA characters with each other?

Personally despite the feelings of nearly everyone else I never saw pairings as neccessary or implied in AA

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I beg to differ.


but yeah, The rest of the pairings are just crap.

Er, I suppose people may have interpretted my "why is this all about P/I" comment. I didn't mean about the entire debating thread being about it, I was talking to myself. I was hoping to only make a few comments about P/I and then start on my DahKris rant but then the P/I took over in my post. haha.



Croik, you have summed up one major reason why I cannot stand the pairing. The only similarity they have is that they're both murderers, and honestly, to me that's like saying Hitler and Stalin would be "a totally kawaii pairing" because they were some of the greatest mass murderers in history. (I know someone will get angry about that example and I'm a little iffy on using those people, but seriously.)

I'm not going to argue about the canonically of this pairing because well, no one would try to argue that it was canon. I'm just going to argue the logic of this pairing.

One thing that irks me the most is how everyone who supports the pairing tends to completely and utterly ignore Dahlia's character and mindset. Dahlia's character is obviously a psychopath / someone with antisocial personality disorder. Psychopaths are abusively exploitative and incapable of true love or intimacy. Notice how I don't say "have difficulties with" or "are unlikely to but capable of" I say "incapable of true love or intimacy." Those with antisocial disorder present a "lack of capacity for love." Psychopaths can also show signs of narcissism, meaning they view themselves as the centre constantly. Never does Dahlia show even the inkling of compassion. She's unable to even create a true friend. This shows how Dahlia could never even truely have a friendship with anyone. Iris' compassion for Dahlia was always one sided.

As for Kristoph's character, I'm not neccessarily an expert on knowing things about Kristoph, I have to admit. As Croik said, his hatred of Phoenix lies within jealousy. He does not seem to be a psychopath, or at least, as extreme as Dahlia was. Though, as far as I know he could very well be one, but only a sociopath (psychopaths are the extreme version, just for clarification). Like a sociopath, Kristoph does not trust or show any sort of remorse for his actions. However, he does seem to abide by rules and certain customs, which point the opposite way. Kristoph shows signs of Narcisstic Personality Disorder.

This is where a conflict of personalities arise. Both disorders are similar in that they both share extreme egocentricity, believe they are higher than others and cannot empathise. However, narcissists do not mind to be with others, as long as they would always be in the centre of attention. As I've already mentioned, psychopaths cannot stand others. To a narcissist you are a servant, to a psychopath you are a tool. It may make an interesting romantic comedy but unfortunately, it would have a very disappointing and possibly depressing ending.

Once more, I apologise if my manner of speaking is odd. When I tend to type a lot it tends to make no sense. Though it's not as bad as how I am in real life, haha.

Grossberg/Lemons: WHAT are you guys talking about. That is SO not canon. Look at this quote

"Ah, the days of my youth... like the scent of fresh lemons."

CLEARLY he says youth meaning PAST. Obviously it means that they are totally over. He's just saying how it reminds him of it. He's not in love with it anymore. I mean, MOVE ON. Are you still in love with your first fruit?

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I hate to seem argumentative but.. Assuming that Phoenix being single at the credits of GS3/implied GS4 is a statement or implying by the writers they 'intend' him to be single (particularly even after the games end)' is just another form of the 'guess what the writers really intended but never said.' It's just another 'theory' of the writers' motivations and thoughts which has plenty of just as supportable alternate explanations. So that's not a valid argument for 'all shipping debates are futile and involving discussion/interpretation of anything in the games and what the writers maybe implied from it is worthless.'

Also, pretending that theory is 'true' is a cheap way of sinking a few GS3 shippings with 'proof'. "Look, Iris 'doesn't exist' in GS4. That means that when they wrote GS3 as an ending at the time, they 'already thought up GS4' so they never intended Phoenix/Iris." We can see this is illogical. It's yet another assumption of the writers' motivations that anything in GS4 is somehow evidence of the writers' intentions when writing GS3. It's been repeated to death that this is a 'new' story and since the rest of Phoenix's cast was 'unreturned' we're not supposed to question their absence or expect them in future games now, are we? On that argument, the game bears no actual relation to GS3 or the intentions of its writers.

And I think everybody knows there are no 'canon' Phoenix pairings. But this does not have to be interpreted as a statement that Phoenix/Nobody for eternity is explicit canon or somehow the writers' intention/intention to imply. (That's just another theory which should be up for debate along with all the other 'pairings'.) Everybody also knows there are hints and implications to various potential Phoenix pairings which are left in ambiguity but deliberately inserted by the writers, and some have more than others. [And they seem to like doing so, even to more obscure pairings. Like that hint they kindly inserted for Phoenix/Franziska, and that 'interesting' Mia/Lana scene written in 1-5, despite her already having an almost canon pairing with Diego.] Looks more like 'keeping options open for different parts of the fanbase, only one of which is Phoenix/Nobody' rather than a proclamation 'Phoenix MUST be eternally devoid of any kind of romantic interaction, even not in the games.'

I suppose it's also possible to support the case of Phoenix being asexual. Then we'd all start bickering over his asexual life partner/s.

I have to ask.. where do we discuss it? Don't tell me it's 'not on this forum'. I suppose controversies are a pain to manage around here...

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Hey, icer! You asked a while back about the reasons Larry and Iris might be compatible so I'll give you my answer (it's a little late, though, sorry about that). Anyway, well, the reason I like the Larry/Iris ship is that it reminds me a great deal of Young Phoenix/Iris, a pairing I thought was incredibly sweet. Both Larry and Iris are rather naive, idealistic, and refuse to give up on the people they care about (even if it might be better to let go). They both have this vision of romance that's a bit immatue and romanticized; Larry is constantly under the impression that the woman he is dating is his "one and only," the only woman he will ever love and can't live without. Iris too has a tendency to see her dear "Feenie" in way that can only be described as completely blinded by her love, ignoring all his faults. They are idealists, as can be seen by Larry moving around from one place to another, still trying to find his way in the world while Iris still clings to the hope that her sister can be redeemed. And lastly, they just seem to mesh together to me. Like I've said before, they're both simple people at heart who want love. They're not out to wrong the rights of the world and save innocents like Phoenix is.

As for Dahlia/Kristoph, well, not having played Apollo Justice, I can't really give an informed opinion. They certainly look good together, but I don't believe that Dahlia's the type of person who would submit to, what she'd see, as a "pitiful" emotion like love. Just my two cents there.

Keep yaking about it all you want but the fact is GS4 is an official game, they did try to merge the timelines, and there's 4 old characters in it ( , , , and ).
So since Phoenix is alone in GS4 (no Maya, no Iris, no anybody) it's official. Unless they change their stance for GS5 Capcom will keep him single unless for some reason they finaly retire his character. And even then they know it'd piss people off, which could affect game sales. And you know it's all about the money. Not fan service.



Actually that part is about right. Think about it. What do these debates accomplish? Nothing (except maybe piss people off). It doesn't change pairings one bit.
Pairing is a fan thing. Not the game maker's.

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The self-satisfaction of finally rendering your opponent speechless after he is unable to comeback with a retort?

:>



But... they don't! They look like Mcdonalds for crying out loud! Yellow and Red are the natures "warning signs" so I assume that could fit with their personalities. But the colours don't even match! They aren't even aesthetically pleasing.

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Ok, a lot of people who have been to the Adrian fanclub probably know this but I'll introduce it here

x

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Which has no bearing on the other pairing other than (a vendetta) upsetting the other side. Doesn't make the pairing any better.



Because of the're evil levels being almost the same. Both liked using poison. Both killed (or tried )to cover up something else. They share a lot of stuff (even the're smiles:)



Hey opposite's attract

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I don't argue for the pairing. I'm not obsessed about Phoenix Wright enough. I just argue for the sake of argueing.

And to stroke my ego, but that's a lesson for another day.



Dahlia was way more eviller (is that even a word?) than Kristoph. Dahlia killed her step-sister. She murdered her former lover, caused the suicide of her other former lover. Also she came back from the dead to kill her aunt only to pin the blame on the only person who has ever cared about her. Kristoph... uh... lost at poker, got butt-hurt, took his revenge on someone completely unrelated and then lived in excessive paranoia for the rest of his life causing him to kill people. Kristoph killed people out of fear that he would be found out while Dahlia's more of a batshit insane kind of evil.

The fact that they both used poison is irrelevant. Hell, poison's a smart way to kill somebody. If done properly it would be untraceable. (Of course PW villains can kind of be idiots). As for killing to cover something up... uh...

Almost every killer killed to cover up something. Clearly that means that they're all TOTALLY KAWAII TOGETHER.

As for the smiles... it's the classic smile! That's how to draw a smile in manga style! Closed eyes and a smile! A lot of characters have that EXACT SAME SMILE.

those are just a compilation of similar smiles off the top of my head. If I go scouring though the sprites I could probably find many more! Or are you going to say that these guys are CLEARLY part of their orgy because they have the same smile.(okay maybe gant) If anything, Machi's a better pair for Dahlia since he does the head tilt too.

By the way you spelt they're wrong (TWICE) and that isn't even the correct word to use in that situation (it's their). Unless you are saying they are smiles. Which I doubt they are. (I'm just correcting you, I'm not being hostile, this is my normal)

And did you NOT read my essay on how there is no POSSIBLE way they could be attracted to each other. It's.. just... not feasible. My computer has a greater chance of falling in love with someone than Dahlia does. Unless they find some medicine... Dahlia and Kristoph are incapable of loving anyone other them themselves. They cannot even understand the concept of love. The two of them are so paranoid that they would not EVER confide in each other their troubles. In fact, psychopaths do not trust ANYONE, why do you think Iris had such a hard time? They're practically impossibly to get help for. The only way you can convince a psychopath to even bother to GO to therapy is to threaten their lives. What makes you think that they could SOMEHOW be attracted to each other? I'm feeling as though I'm repeating myself. Do you understand what I'm saying? It's impossible. aurghhh

And where did you even get the idea of "opposites" from? Your post was entirely about how they were similar. My posts wasn't how they were opposites either. And red and yellow aren't complementary colours so that rules out opposites there too.

jptorres26 It's an interesting pairing, but I doubt it would happen since Edgeworth has already stated (kind of jerkishly though, sob) that he did not care the slightest whether she killed herself or not as long as he got her to say the correct testimony.

uh...

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You're comparing Dahlia's actions to Kristoph's motives. Apples to oranges.

Dahlia resorted to murder to avoid being caught, the same reason Kristoph had. She had a lot more to lose by being found out than Kristoph, though; she'd be going to prison and likely facing the death penalty, while Kristoph would just be uncovered as a cheating douchebag.

So I don't see how you come up with "Dahlia is so much worse than Kristoph." If anything, Kristoph is worse for having a weaker reason to take someone's life.

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FREAKIN ICER!!!



There's nothing ambiguous about it. This one is cold hard fact that they went out while they were younger.
Croik the big boss of this place has passed judgement on this, you gotta learn to change your opinions and listen to others.

Geez c'mon you can't deny the definitive nature of this.

This is canon.

You can debate and provide reasoning all you want, it can't change that this was confirmed as real as Dessie and Ron together.
This is a 'mathematical proof' as you call it. Canon is true, everything else is a belief.

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I wonder, why is it that I've never seen a serious crack pairing discussion?

[edited originally at the request of Icer]

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Last edited by carbon monoxide on Sun Aug 30, 2009 5:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I'm seeing some of your points. Also, Larry's a 'loser' and has many jobs and activities not work out, but it's not due to malicious or evil intent, so maybe Iris' constant forgiveness of faults and giving second chances' would be better and more productively directed at him than someone simply evil motivated like Dahlia, provided it didn't reach unreasonable proportions and his loyalty to her is never in question.

As for the fact of his previous relationship failures:

-All his girlfriends seem to have dumped him, not vice versa. Larry's loyalty to the girlfriends is never in question, he even disappears to Nepal the entire of PW2 to try and remain faithful to one of them. It must be some unintended personality traits/unintentional actions that inspire breakup.

-He also self- apprenticed himself to Elise, meaning he must be desperate to fill some kind of 'need'.

-He seems to accept some of his faults (unlike Dahlia) in 3-5 and vow to change. Maybe if he had the support of a more permanent relationship he could actually do so.

-Most of his past girlfriends appear to be models etc. The fact his personality characteristic/actions with them provoke breakup doesn't necessarily the same actions would trigger dysfunction/breakup with Iris, she is notable for 'infinite second chances' to Dahlia/Morgan etc. and it doesn't pay to stereotype but she doesn't really scream 'model'.

*Attraction on Larry's side is proven, and he devotes more actual action in pursuit of Iris than any other female actually shown on-screen, hinting it's stronger than his standard 'hitting on almost every female':
-consults a BOOK to try to write the letter properly
-Tries to steal Gumshoe's wallet to go to jail with her after she's arrested
-Still at Hazakurain at credits, maybe waiting for her?

*It is a good point Feenie bears some resemblance to loser Larry pre 3-1. And they HAVE been friends, (probably best friends, in Edgeworth's absence) since 4th grade, meaning they must have common similarities, especially since they maintained the friendship even after Larry quit school at the end of Junior High. But Phoenix 'grew up' after 3-1, whereas Larry didn't really.

The main problem is that there isn't much evidence on Iris' side. Her ignoring him in 3-5 doesn't necessarily mean she'd never be interested - she was still pre-occupied with Feenie and the 3-1 incident and couldn't' move on at that point. Also, she was simply oblivious he felt any attraction for her, and was busy with the 3-5 fiasco.

The other main problem is if iris will ever move on from Feenie. Phoenix from his side has given her every gift of closure to be able to do so [and remember it as a good past memory rather than a nightmare guilt trip with present repercussions and lingering trauma.] Phoenix was probably her first and only relationship, but she may not be able to put that in perspective, even if it's clear he's moved on and it's closed. She many not have the will, motivation or emotional maturity to pursue another relationship with Larry or anyone else.

*But, if they pursued a relationship, the history of past breakups with others could be common ground and work in their favour, as both might be inspired to more dedicated efforts to make it work this time.

*Larry's 'needs' seem a little more simplistic than obsessive, high-energy, justice-spewing, intense Phoenix, and probably easier and more gratifying to Iris. The 'loser' thing probably wouldn't be a problem to her, and a far better target of her 'forgiveness' than Dahlia.
(I can't see the same argument applying to Hobo/Iris, sorry, she'd simply find his internal 'justice' struggles over Kristoph/disbarring incomprehensible. Hobo isn't a loser for the same reasons as Larry.)

*Larry seems quite capable of giving her ridiculous amounts of 'dedication' in a similar manner to 3-1 Feenie, he did some pretty extreme things for his ill-fated girlfriends.

The main questions to its viability are:
-WOULD Iris have the emotional maturity or desire to properly move on from Feenie into a new relationship?
-Would she be interested in Larry at all? He is similar in many ways to 3-1 Feenie, but she may not notice this.

BTW I only wanted to discuss this pairing, (this seemed to be the only thread to do so) I have no interest in 'debating' any of this.

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You forget one possible killer, understandable seeing as how you're staunchly anti-P/I.

Would Phoenix reciprocate Iris' feelings? Because if he does, then Larry/Iris has no chance in the near future (considering post-Gs3's timeline)

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Whatever icer that's your opinion. I stand by mine. And to be honest i can't figure out some of it.
The point is, is a pairing of 2 fictional characters worth spending tons of time and effort on? To me it isn't. And to be honest idk why i spent some time adding stuff to these debates.

@ Reemokisu below: Unfortunately some have crossed the line in the past.

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Last edited by Johnny Rotan on Sun Aug 30, 2009 6:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.

One of the reasons I can see Larry/Iris happening actually has to do with the events that follow, described in Apollo Justice. I believe a few months after the end of 3-5 is when Phoenix loses his badge, and Iris, obviously, is going to be in jail for a couple of months as an accomplice to murder. Now, I’m not saying it’s impossible for her and Phoenix to reform a romantic relationship in prison, but it’s going to be exceedingly difficult simply because they will have very limited time (what with Phoenix’s job and visitation hours) together and they have so much baggage to go through. That’s not to say that they won’t be friends (I can imagine Phoenix visiting her often), but I think that they, in all likelihood, won’t be able to fall in love again before Phoenix is disbarred. Once that happens, Phoenix’s life will be in turmoil. He won’t have the time or inclination to pursue romantic relations with anyone (not just Iris). Relationships are a lot of work and Phoenix won’t be able to devote such time to a new partner (he might also get depressed and not really feel in a romantic mood, though that’s just speculation on my part).

I’m not saying he’s going to cut Iris out of his life, but I don’t think he’ll be interested in restarting a romantic relationship with so much going on, especially since he and Iris have so much history together that brought on some painful consequences. He’s going to lean on his friends (Iris and Larry among them), but I think it is extremely unlikely that anything romantic will start up for him during that time.
Meanwhile, once she gets out of prison, Iris will have her own choices to make. Because of the reasons I’ve stated, I don’t think she and Phoenix are going to be able to reform their romantic relationship (at least right away) but she’s still going to want to help him. The problem is, Iris is a very shy and naïve person. She’s probably going to stay at Hazakurian, at least for a while, to sort things out. She’s going to have to decide if she wants to stay or go out into the world, but the decision will take some time; it’s a huge step for her- she’s grown up so secluded and has generally followed Bikini and Dahlia’s orders for so long.

Who’s going to be with her during this time? Well, Bikini, of course, as her mother figure. The only other person who might be around, though, is Larry, a person who has a close relation with Phoenix. At first I can see Iris going to Larry to find out how Phoenix is doing in between her contact with him. Over time, I can see her come to appreciate how devoted Larry is to Phoenix and what a nice guy he is. His crush on her could very well become more pronounced and he might try to do nice things for her (like write her love letters) that he would bungle horrifically, but rather charmingly. I imagine she would come to see a lot of her young , college Feenie in him and maybe fall in love. After all, Larry would probably be one of the very few men besides Phoenix she will have ever spent any significant time around.

She’ll still love Phoenix for a while, but when she sees how much he’s got on his plate, she’s going to have to give him a little space. I think, during that time, she could come to love Larry if they spent some time together. He seems like the type of person who would do sweet things for her, like paint her a portrait that would be terrible but that she’d still love because he made it for her. In the months following Phoenix’s disbarment I don’t think it’s impossible to imagine some closeness developing between Larry and Iris.

So in response to your questions icer:
The main questions to its viability are:
-WOULD Iris have the emotional maturity or desire to properly move on from Feenie into a new relationship?
-Would she be interested in Larry at all? He is similar in many ways to 3-1 Feenie, but she may not notice this.

I think the answer to both is a resounding yes.
And, btw, I really loved how you clarified some of the reasons (that I agree with) of why Larry and Iris could work as a couple.

Oh and I just wanted to add my two cents on a question Johnny brought up earlier: Why do we debate?

We do so because it’s fun and stimulating. As long as no one takes shipping too seriously, you can always have a respectful and interesting discussion. People can get passionate, but I don’t think many people cross the line into insulting others, it’s just that we can tend to overreact at times, lol.

@ Johnny above: I personally haven't seen many examples at all of personal attacks. Sometimes people genralize groups of shippers, but they usually apologize for it. What I have seen a lot of people do, though, is insult characters and pairings, but , although unpleasant at tmes, it's not a very big deal. I don't care if people hate P/I, say they find Maya too annoying for Phoenix, or call Edgeworth an emo crybaby. That's their opinion and it's not worth getting upset about.

Last edited by Reemokisu on Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.

OT much? Am I a pairing for debate?



Croik merely made some intelligent comment about how it's futile to debate the meaning of 'canon relationship', not that there isn't controversy surrounding past Phoenix/Iris. Everybody knows past Phoenix/Iris is controversial, otherwise there would be general consensus. [We don't even know when Iris started 'loving' him, it could have been after she never saw him again.] And, all respect to Croik, just because she claims a pairing is something, doesn't mean it is, she doesn't write the series, and knows she has no grounds to 'pass definitive judgment' like that. Oh, she can close the 'pairing debate thread' if she doesn't like pairing debates on her forums [and I kind of wouldn't blame her] but that would be a management issue...

Was I correct in what I 'assumed' you meant though? I don't want there to be misunderstanding...

Damn, the entire post isn't even about pairings.

Oh, Dahlia/Kristoph discussion. Kristoph was given no backstory to explain his murderous intents origins. (I felt terribly sorry for Dahlia, even after she tried to kill my two favourite chars.) With no backstory explanations for Kristoph we can't claim one is 'more evil' or whatever.

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Fine ignore the rest of my post here.

Canon is not in dispute it is not controversial. YOU are the only one who seems to think Phoenix!YoungIris is disputable. One crazy ramble does not a controversy make, it just makes you seem foolish and stubborn.

The writers intended it because IT HAPPENED! Geez for most things I'll say sure let them bicker but this is solid fact for once you can't call it disputed.

It gives other people reason to believe Lawyer!PhoenixxIris is true as....lets face it it's not unheard of for couples that broke up to get back together ya?

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Last edited by Lunaria42 on Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Don't push it, dude. It's not funny.

Not again ....

Let's debate the validity of Payne/wife

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Whats to debate?

I'm kinda glad someone as lowly as Payne at least has a (hopefully) loving wife but we've got no reason not to believe she exists either.

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Nah, I bet she's cheating on him. The question is with who.

That's who

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Hmmm.... all of a sudden I wonder if Payne's wife knows oldbag.

Or...*gasp*

*SIGHS*

Say it.

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Sorry, I tought my implying was clearer.

Paynes wife=

It would explain alot.