An update to our NSFW policy

[Bolt Storm]

In recent months, there's been a lot of back-and-forth over what can be considered "NSFW" and what's allowed to be posted openly, especially given that in the past Court-Records has had a history of NSFW content at times. This has lead to a lot of rule-bending about posting NSFW stuff.

Ultimately, the staff have decided that's not the kind of atmosphere we want here. Which means the following policy is now in effect:

• NSFW content for NSFW content's sake is not allowed, even linked or in spoiler tags. "TSFW" (technically safe for work) content is heavily discouraged. Ask yourself if posting a big-breasted anime girl in a bikini or talking about your personal sex life actually contributes in any way, shape, or form to the discussion.
• NSFW content as part of an AA fanwork you have created and are posting in a creative forum is allowed, but only if properly tagged.

We're open to feedback on this policy, but given recent issues it's not likely to change significantly.

(This thread will eventually be folded into the Rules topic, but for now it's being left as an announcement.)

[henke37]

For the sake of completion:

-NO ADULT MATERIAL. If you want to present a certain adult rated fanfiction/fanart/link, post a link to the work in question. Do not post or attach it here or it will be removed. No nudity, no sex, no extreme violence.

Reminder 6/22/14: -NSFW SHOULD NOT BE A FOCUS. While CR has in the past allowed NSFW discussion in threads clearly marked for it, you should not be constantly having raunchy discussions everywhere. NSFW content should be clearly marked, linked, and rare. And remember, NSFW doesn't just mean absolutely, in-your-face explicit; just because someone has a bare modicum of cloth on doesn't make them SFW. Use common sense, or the mods will for you.

Reminder 3/30/14: -KEEP IT PG-13. If you're going to post something NSFW, clearly mark and link it. Be reasonable with your language; cluster F-bombs aren't necessary. And even as a joke, racist, homophobic, transphobic, or other slurs are not acceptable. The golden rule: we're not 4chan.

[Pierre]

Small Two Cents:

I'm all in favour of raising the tone of conversation around here but the total ban seems overly antagonistic to some.
I say this because as far as I can remember CR has always operated it's own Hentai Thread (which is clearly NSFW). While it's fallen quiet over time I feel it is unfair to crack down hard on those who wish to share their 18+ content instead of allowing them a dedicated area for it.

I didn't have a problem with people talking about that stuff, I had a problem with them talking about it in a general 'safe' area meant for all users. Yes there's a risk a young individual may enter a thread marked 18+ however that's their choice, the mods should feel free to enforce the rules on those who violate that restriction there as they've taken on that responsibility. Either that or I'd like to ask whether it was wrong to have the original Hentai thread in the first place.

I understand a need to reign it in, but this seems like a backlash when there could be a cordial solution for all.

[Jean Descole]

It seems to me the problem isn't with people talking about NSFW stuff or posting NSFW stuff in appropriate threads, it's despite the fact said appropriate threads exist, some users are not content to keep it there. They continue to bring NSFW stuff into general threads, despite being warned not to do that. Evidently more than once, from the looks of those updates.

All things considered, I do think this is an appropriate course of action at the moment. There are other forums for that kind of thing. In general, it doesn't send a good message if a person is incapable of participating in conversation unless it involves constantly flaunting their pornographic collection or dropping f-bombs every other word in their posts. Unless, of course, they're at a forum for that kind of thing. Which is not here.

And it isn't as though NSFW content is fully banned here -- a total ban would be zero linking to such things, and no personal AA fanworks containing explicit content. And maybe cutting out the heavier curse words. All that's being asked is for everyone to reel it in a bit.

[CatMuto]

But Sierra, shortly before this topic was created and these rules set in place, Doitsu did open a "NSFW 18+" thread to give anyone who wanted to post NSFW pictures or content, discussions and similar a dedicated area for it. But only a few posts into the thread, it was deleted.

I'm not sure why. I'm guessing it's because I recall General (or Bolt) mentioning that the mods and admins were discussing on whether they should open such a thread themselves, and when a user opens one before the mods are really done with their talk about whether they should have one to begin with, felt like taken premature action.

And I agree with Pierre. If a younger user sees an 18+ NSFW thread and clicks on it, that's their own fault. If it's clearly marked for people of a certain age, entering said area is of their own free will and action. I might understand a parent getting huffed up because such a thread has no "Extra Lock Mechanic" to prevent users from just entering, but that isn't always possible. I don't think this forum has such a function...? Besides, a parent can't blame the internet for showing their kids inappropriate stuff for their age, it's the parents fault for not watching out what the kid browses.

C-A

[EmeraldKaruma]

Yes there's a risk a young individual may enter a thread marked 18+ however that's their choice, the mods should feel free to enforce the rules on those who violate that restriction there as they've taken on that responsibility.

I agree. Admittedly I'm only 12 and even before I got my account I used to browse this forum as a guest all the time. I remember going into a thread that was clearly marked NSFW 18+. I thought how bad could it be and clicked on one of the posts. I exited out of it in a matter of seconds after it loaded. All I remember was seeing a hentai picture which is blurred now since I only looked at it for a matter of seconds. I learnt the hard way and I'm actually glad. Now I'm able to understand that NSFW is 18+ for a reason and I feel like if kids on this forum can't grasp the concept that it's 18+ for a reason then they should learn the hard way.

[Jean Descole]

But Sierra, shortly before this topic was created and these rules set in place, Doitsu did open a "NSFW 18+" thread to give anyone who wanted to post NSFW pictures or content, discussions and similar a dedicated area for it. But only a few posts into the thread, it was deleted.

Aw. Damn it, see what happens when you go on vacation? The things you miss!

But seriously, I hadn't seen that thread. I was referring more to stuff that was leaking into general threads, despite NSFW threads being available. Or at least that's the impression I got from the more recent posts from the "random conversations" thread.

[Pierre]

But Sierra, shortly before this topic was created and these rules set in place, Doitsu did open a "NSFW 18+" thread to give anyone who wanted to post NSFW pictures or content, discussions and similar a dedicated area for it. But only a few posts into the thread, it was deleted.

Aw. Damn it, see what happens when you go on vacation? The things you miss!

But seriously, I hadn't seen that thread. I was referring more to stuff that was leaking into general threads, despite NSFW threads being available. Or at least that's the impression I got from the more recent posts from the "random conversations" thread.

No the issue I have is, as Cat said, an actual thread which would have been a suitable outlet was deleted.

It bothers me because the outcome seemed reasonable...given the existence of a hentai thread already on CR I thought it would be an acceptable solution. Sure they could still include the 'links only' policy there but it just seems strange to me.

[Alonso Swift]

I don't think the issue was the fact that an NSFW thread had been made, more that it had been made before any official moderator decisions.
If I had access to it, I'd quote the General's post about it, but it was something like "I don't recall permission for this thread being given. If you can prove it was, fine, otherwise the thread is gone."

[Pierre]

I don't think the issue was the fact that an NSFW thread had been made, more that it had been made before any official moderator decisions.
If I had access to it, I'd quote the General's post about it, but it was something like "I don't recall permission for this thread being given. If you can prove it was, fine, otherwise the thread is gone."

Perhaps it was rushed, but if so I think it should be considered now rather than being banned outright with no further discussion on the matter.

[WaitingforGodot]

But Sierra, shortly before this topic was created and these rules set in place, Doitsu did open a "NSFW 18+" thread to give anyone who wanted to post NSFW pictures or content, discussions and similar a dedicated area for it. But only a few posts into the thread, it was deleted.

I'm not sure why. I'm guessing it's because I recall General (or Bolt) mentioning that the mods and admins were discussing on whether they should open such a thread themselves, and when a user opens one before the mods are really done with their talk about whether they should have one to begin with, felt like taken premature action.

And I agree with Pierre. If a younger user sees an 18+ NSFW thread and clicks on it, that's their own fault. If it's clearly marked for people of a certain age, entering said area is of their own free will and action. I might understand a parent getting huffed up because such a thread has no "Extra Lock Mechanic" to prevent users from just entering, but that isn't always possible. I don't think this forum has such a function...? Besides, a parent can't blame the internet for showing their kids inappropriate stuff for their age, it's the parents fault for not watching out what the kid browses.

C-A

Word.

[Jean Descole]

I don't think the issue was the fact that an NSFW thread had been made, more that it had been made before any official moderator decisions.
If I had access to it, I'd quote the General's post about it, but it was something like "I don't recall permission for this thread being given. If you can prove it was, fine, otherwise the thread is gone."

I was wondering if that was the case there.

[henke37]

One solution is to just create an 18+ area, that people have to manually opt-in to. It would be quite easy to setup in the redesign, I already coded the tricky stuff.

[Pierre]

One solution is to just create an 18+ area, that people have to manually opt-in to. It would be quite easy to setup in the redesign, I already coded the tricky stuff.

That's an idea....but I don't see how it's any different from a topic...when someone clicks on an 18+ topic it's essentially the same as 'opting in' to this 18+ area with a lot less hassle.

[CatMuto]

I think the thing is, the Mods aren't absolutely against an 18+ Thread. They just don't want one to be made by users without their permission or before they have come to a consent of whether they'll "allow" an 18+ area where everything is contained to be available or forbidden.

C-A

[Jean Descole]

One solution is to just create an 18+ area, that people have to manually opt-in to. It would be quite easy to setup in the redesign, I already coded the tricky stuff.

That's an idea....but I don't see how it's any different from a topic...when someone clicks on an 18+ topic it's essentially the same as 'opting in' to this 18+ area with a lot less hassle.

That 'hassle' is what puts more responsibility on the user.

A 12-year-old browsing as a 'guest' cannot 'stumble upon' an 18+ area. If they want access, they would need both an account and to go through the "opt-in" process as well.

I remember some mods did this at a forum I frequented many moons ago, though the opt-in process involved sending a request to a mod. Yes, I'm sure a few lied about their age. But those with access were free to post to their hearts' content.

[henke37]

It would also help dealing with additional content. The redesign includes fanfics and fanart, two prime magnets for 18+ content.

There is also the simple fact that a single thread gets unwieldy to navigate. An entire forum, with possible subforums, is much easier to navigate.

[Pierre]

Well that depends on how much 18+ content you think we'll get by opening an area. If there's a great tide of fanfiction and the like waiting to pour in that's not had the opportunity then by all means go ahead. I was under the impression it was just to be a solution for the more raunchier discussions.

One solution is to just create an 18+ area, that people have to manually opt-in to. It would be quite easy to setup in the redesign, I already coded the tricky stuff.

That's an idea....but I don't see how it's any different from a topic...when someone clicks on an 18+ topic it's essentially the same as 'opting in' to this 18+ area with a lot less hassle.

That 'hassle' is what puts more responsibility on the user.

A 12-year-old browsing as a 'guest' cannot 'stumble upon' an 18+ area. If they want access, they would need both an account and to go through the "opt-in" process as well.

I remember some mods did this at a forum I frequented many moons ago, though the opt-in process involved sending a request to a mod. Yes, I'm sure a few lied about their age. But those with access were free to post to their hearts' content.

"Responsibility on the user" you say?

If a thread says 18+ that's essentially the same level of responsibility. You think a warning about 18+ thread is any less effective than an area that says it? In actuality it's still just a few clicks. If a warning about 18+ thread won't stop them then an extra click to enter an 18+ area isn't going to be any more of a deterrent.

Of course there could probably be stricter security measures in place based around checking the user's age.

[henke37]

It's a difference between pretending that the content doesn't exist and just not looking at it.

[Jean Descole]

Well that depends on how much 18+ content you think we'll get by opening an area. If there's a great tide of fanfiction and the like waiting to pour in that's not had the opportunity then by all means go ahead. I was under the impression it was just to be a solution for the more raunchier discussions.

That 'hassle' is what puts more responsibility on the user.

A 12-year-old browsing as a 'guest' cannot 'stumble upon' an 18+ area. If they want access, they would need both an account and to go through the "opt-in" process as well.

I remember some mods did this at a forum I frequented many moons ago, though the opt-in process involved sending a request to a mod. Yes, I'm sure a few lied about their age. But those with access were free to post to their hearts' content.

"Responsibility on the user" you say?

If a thread says 18+ that's essentially the same level of responsibility. You think a warning about 18+ thread is any less effective than an area that says it? In actuality it's still just a few clicks. If a warning about 18+ thread won't stop them then an extra click to enter an 18+ area isn't going to be any more of a deterrent.

Of course there could probably be stricter security measures in place based around checking the user's age.

No, it is not the same level of responsibility.

Say you visit a forum that isn't restricted. You lurk as a guest, and in this forum, anyone has access to a thread that is 18+ (including people who get there via a search engine result). If someone gets offended, part of the blame can be placed on forum staff for allowing the content in the first place.

Now imagine you visit a forum that has a restricted 18+ section. In order to gain access to that section, you have to sign up as a user, and verify you're not a bot. That's the first step. The second step is to go through the "opt-in" process to have access to that section, either by choosing something in your profile settings (assuming this is very clearly labeled that you are verifying you are of age) or by personally requesting permission from a forum staff member. In either case, at this point you have gathered enough information to ascertain that the section you are attempting to gain access to is an 18+ section. Forum staff cannot verify if you are lying about your age or not (chances are they will also point this out), so if you agree to opt in for access, then you are confirming that 1) you are of age, 2) you understand what type of content is in the restricted area and 3) you intend to go into that part of the forum, fully knowing what you'll find there. So yes, the responsibility falls on you. Once you are in, then you can no longer claim that you had no idea, or that you were too young to be viewing the content.

This is what I mean by responsibility. This is not about keeping out the people who want to be there, regardless of what age they give you. Users who want to opt in will opt in. The difference is, once in, they don't get to claim ignorance.

[Pierre]

It's more work for the mods if they need to verify everyone personally who wants to go in there. Still like I said I agree if there were more security measures it would make it more difficult.

However what benefit is there really to 'claiming ignorance' anyway? No one will ever be able to prove they lied about their age and honestly I don't expect the mods will police the new area and investigate new members there. It's extremely unlikely we'll ever hunt anyone down for it.

Still knowing that something is being worked on so that folks can have their '18+' area is good enough for me.

[kwando1313]

I don't care about NSFW stuff at all, but I think that an opt-in policy/forum is the best way to deal with it.

[DoMaya]

Come on guys, I started looking at 18+ stuff when I was only 13, and I turned out just fine!

Right?

Right?

[CatMuto]

Come on guys, I started looking at 18+ stuff when I was only 13, and I turned out just fine!

Right?

Right?

Considering my contact and knowledge of sexual stuff started at around the age of 4...

C-A

[Alonso Swift]

Come on guys, I started looking at 18+ stuff when I was only 13, and I turned out just fine!

Right?

Right?

See? This is evidence for why we need an opt-in area of the forum for this stuff!

[CatMuto]

Come on guys, I started looking at 18+ stuff when I was only 13, and I turned out just fine!

Right?

Right?

See? This is evidence for why we need an opt-in area of the forum for this stuff!

So wait, a 13 year old is terrible that they saw 18+ stuff but a 4 year old doesn't concern anyone...!?

C-A

[Alonso Swift]

Come on guys, I started looking at 18+ stuff when I was only 13, and I turned out just fine!

Right?

Right?

See? This is evidence for why we need an opt-in area of the forum for this stuff!

So wait, a 13 year old is terrible that they saw 18+ stuff but a 4 year old doesn't concern anyone...!?

C-A

Well, it was DoMaya that I was referring to... I was mostly playing along with the joke he was doing.

[Church Of Sumire]

Come on guys, I started looking at 18+ stuff when I was only 13, and I turned out just fine!

Right?

Right?

Kid's now a days are learning things at such a young age that it is crazy. Kids in elementary school already know so many curse words and kids are having sex younger and younger in this day and age.

I think that it would be best like everyone mentioned to just a thread dedicated to 18+ material that way people won't have the need to discuss 18+ material on general threads. The whole issue is keeping the material away from other threads.

[Jean Descole]

It's more work for the mods if they need to verify everyone personally who wants to go in there. Still like I said I agree if there were more security measures it would make it more difficult.

However what benefit is there really to 'claiming ignorance' anyway? No one will ever be able to prove they lied about their age and honestly I don't expect the mods will police the new area and investigate new members there. It's extremely unlikely we'll ever hunt anyone down for it.

Still knowing that something is being worked on so that folks can have their '18+' area is good enough for me.

Anything is "more work for the mods" whenever there are forum changes. It's up to them how they want to handle it.

I never said the mods were going to personally investigate and verify that every interested user is in fact 18 or older. In my example, the user requesting access is all the verification needed. I couldn't care less if they're lying. Once they request access, it's on them now.

The benefit to claiming ignorance is being able to push responsibility onto someone else, without any regard to what role you might have played in the situation.

The reason you do your part in removing that opportunity for ignorance is so that you will not be personally held liable for it. It's called covering your own ass.

It's all hypothetical, anyway. Forum staff would have to decide whether or not there needs to be a whole hidden section dedicated to smut and its various forms in the first place. Right now we're hovering around a long neglected hentai thread, linked-only smut, and NSFW tagged fanwork. Which is pretty generous, all things considered.

[Pierre]

It's more work for the mods if they need to verify everyone personally who wants to go in there. Still like I said I agree if there were more security measures it would make it more difficult.

However what benefit is there really to 'claiming ignorance' anyway? No one will ever be able to prove they lied about their age and honestly I don't expect the mods will police the new area and investigate new members there. It's extremely unlikely we'll ever hunt anyone down for it.

Still knowing that something is being worked on so that folks can have their '18+' area is good enough for me.

Anything is "more work for the mods" whenever there are forum changes. It's up to them how they want to handle it.

I never said the mods were going to personally investigate and verify that every interested user is in fact 18 or older. In my example, the user requesting access is all the verification needed. I couldn't care less if they're lying. Once they request access, it's on them now.

The benefit to claiming ignorance is being able to push responsibility onto someone else, without any regard to what role you might have played in the situation.

The reason you do your part in removing that opportunity for ignorance is so that you will not be personally held liable for it. It's called covering your own ass.

It's all hypothetical, anyway. Forum staff would have to decide whether or not there needs to be a whole hidden section dedicated to smut and its various forms in the first place. Right now we're hovering around a long neglected hentai thread, linked-only smut, and NSFW tagged fanwork. Which is pretty generous, all things considered.

Ok you had me for a moment but now you've got me back wondering what? If you don't care about actually verifying a user and only care about whether they want in or not then I really see no difference in tagging the thread "18+" in the title. It's clearly marked, clicking on it is a clear representation of intent, the same way your 'opt in' is. Hell just abolish the vast majority of the title and put "18+ Only, No Minors allowed, Fanfiction" where the actual content is a tiny part and the warning is the majority of the title.

Besides if anyone actually POSTS in an 18+ thread then they'll have no opportunity for ignorance because people can actually witness them engaging with the topic as opposed to someone who may just browse.

[CatMuto]

But that's the thing Pierre. Ultimately, the person who clicks on the thread is the one responsible. If it's clearly marked to be NSFW, only for 18+ and such, and someone below said age clicks on it, fully knowing what would be found there, then they are the ones at fault for clicking on it.

You might say responsibility lies with Moderators and Admins for not "securing" such a thread by necessity of putting in a password or something like that, but as I've said before: some Forums don't have such a function. And that doesn't change the fact that someone willfully aware of what consequences their clicking may have is the one ultimately at fault.

And as I've said before again, the fault also lies with the parents for not watching out what the kid browses when it's on the computer or for not turning on a safe browsing when the kid's there. (I'm pretty sure majority of browsers like Mozilla, Chrome and such have a feature. I don't know where mine is, but I'm sure if I looked for it, I'd find it)

C-A

[Pierre]

But that's the thing Pierre. Ultimately, the person who clicks on the thread is the one responsible. If it's clearly marked to be NSFW, only for 18+ and such, and someone below said age clicks on it, fully knowing what would be found there, then they are the ones at fault for clicking on it.

You might say responsibility lies with Moderators and Admins for not "securing" such a thread by necessity of putting in a password or something like that, but as I've said before: some Forums don't have such a function. And that doesn't change the fact that someone willfully aware of what consequences their clicking may have is the one ultimately at fault.

And as I've said before again, the fault also lies with the parents for not watching out what the kid browses when it's on the computer or for not turning on a safe browsing when the kid's there. (I'm pretty sure majority of browsers like Mozilla, Chrome and such have a feature. I don't know where mine is, but I'm sure if I looked for it, I'd find it)

C-A

Er perhaps you misunderstood me, I was saying the person who clicks on the thread was responsible. That's why having a separate area is essentially the same, provided something is clearly marked the responsibility is the same. I never blamed the admins or moderators at all.

Besides I already said that since the 18+ area is going to be it's own area for fanfiction and the like then its fine, I was talking about the deletion of a single 18+ marked topic for discussion.

End of the day, so long as the NSFW stuff doesn't overflow the regular chat area of the forum, I'm happy.

[kwando1313]

Well, I think the point of an opt-in area is cover up for any potential liabilities. If you leave it open, then potentially someone can complain about how CR leaves it open for anyone to see blah blah blah. If you have it in an opt-in area, then you're all good and you can't have that complain levied against you.

[Pierre]

Well, I think the point of an opt-in area is cover up for any potential liabilities. If you leave it open, then potentially someone can complain about how CR leaves it open for anyone to see blah blah blah. If you have it in an opt-in area, then you're all good and you can't have that complain levied against you.

And the legitimate response is "Well the thread is clearly marked, the responsibility is on the individual" So the complaint has no weight anyway.

[kwando1313]

Someone could "accidentally" click it. Just labeling something isn't enough to get out of something like that.

[Pierre]

Someone could "accidentally" click it. Just labeling something isn't enough to get out of something like that.

If someone accidentally clicks it they'll back out quick enough once they see the title. Though I think that's an extremely unlikely option.

[Church Of Sumire]

Someone could "accidentally" click it. Just labeling something isn't enough to get out of something like that.

Well if that was the case, the mod's or admins could have like a safety precaution like sites that have NSFW stuff where the page would say "If over 18 please click here to enter" as a back up if they "accidentally" click on it

[kwando1313]

Someone could "accidentally" click it. Just labeling something isn't enough to get out of something like that.

Well if that was the case, the mod's or admins could have like a safety precaution like sites that have NSFW stuff where the page would say "If over 18 please click here to enter" as a back up if they "accidentally" click on it

Yeah, that's what I want. An opt-in policy. xP

[Church Of Sumire]

Someone could "accidentally" click it. Just labeling something isn't enough to get out of something like that.

Well if that was the case, the mod's or admins could have like a safety precaution like sites that have NSFW stuff where the page would say "If over 18 please click here to enter" as a back up if they "accidentally" click on it

Yeah, that's what I want. An opt-in policy. xP

Well it's the smart legal way in which CR can't be blamed for anyone who views NSFW material under the age of 18 because they were already warned.

[EmeraldKaruma]

Come on guys, I started looking at 18+ stuff when I was only 13, and I turned out just fine!

Right?

Right?

Personally I think it all depends on the person. I started playing ace attorney when I was 8 and watched higurashi no naku koro ni when I was 11. I had absolutely no trouble grasping the fact that people were being put trial for murdering someone in aa and watching a little girl getting tortured to death in higurashi. But when it comes to NSFW... I just can't handle it. I feel extremely uncomfortable and unsure. However, some kids my age may feel the same way about some of the scenes in higurashi and may not be phased the slightest by NSFW. I think it's just all up to what they've
experienced up until that point.