This is the official AAI Countdown thread for case 4-4, Turnabout Succession. Use this thread to chat about the case and its characters, any pairings you drew from it, tell us when the last time you played it was and if your feelings about it have changed, etc.

This is just for fun so if you're not following the countdown exactly or at all you're still very welcome to post.

Here we are at the end of the countdown. DID YOU MAKE IT?

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Hell no. I'm still on JFA (I hate work sometimes.)

I'm interested to read everyone's thoughts on this one.

The one thing that sticks out in my mind is thinking my game had broken and started over from the beginning during the halfway point of the case. It was much worse than Gant's DS breaking stare.

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This was quite a bizarre case to be sure.

It started off as any other case but as soon as Vera passed out on the witness stand everything took a turn for the unexpected. The Mason System was bizarre to say the least, but it was really cool to see what all Phoenix had been up to in investigating Kristoph. The last part of the trial was a major disappointment though. Here I am expecting an epic battle with all of this new evidence I have, and I basically just Perceive and present a few pieces to get the ending. It was incredibly lame compared to the intensity of other final cases like 2-4 and 1-4.

I feel like it's a good case, but it could have been a lot more.

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I MADE IT THREE DAYS AGO!

Ahem, uh yeah, while this is my second favorite Apollo Justice case, it's quite lacking for a final case.

I liked how Phoenix was so prominent in this game, but during the trial part, he seemed way too confident for his own good. Playing as him felt almost as satisfying and rewarding as playing as Edgeworth in the last game. And yet, I sorta DON'T like how Phoenix showed up, did most of Apollo's work, and stole his sunshine too! The phases with Apollo all went by so fast, very little investigation and only two cross-examinations for poor Polly... Phoenix's court phase did make me realize just how different the courtrooms were. For example, the witness stand in Apollo Justice has holes in it and makes every witness look ridiculously short. Either that, or Ema, Lamiroir, and Kristoph are REALLY SHORT. I enjoyed Phoenix's last trial a lot, but I wish they would've used the T&T court themes instead...It was confusing when I felt like I was playing the first AA game with a Penalty Bar... This is how Bridge to the Turnabout should've been done, Turnabout Beginnings should have been a part of that case instead.

The Mason system was really awesome. It was a bit nerve-wracking to see "Move" replaced by "End Search", I also got kinda peeved that the Magatama was not in the evidence. I mean come on! Phoenix just lost his attorney's badge, and now you're telling me his other signature item is also no longer in the evidence?! I wanted to examine the Magatama so bad just to see what it would be like. But NO I had to keep running around thinking that Jean had stolen the Magatama again. Took me a long time to discover the glowing 9 in the Talk section. On the other hand, it was a delight to examine the court room lobby and hear a better Psyche-Lock theme. When Kristoph's black locks showed up, I kept thinking that I needed to find a black Magatama.

Things kinda went downhill after the Mason System. Only one "Gotcha", no "Objections", and a few "Take That"s, I guess if you want there could've been some "Hold It"s, but seriously, just one testimony? That makes it sorta anti-climactic... I enjoyed the credits though. Even though they weren't as sciency as 1-5's if you know what I mean. The Jurist's system was fun, every case from now on should be run like that.

Now on to the characters.

Like I said, I was excited to finally find out what happened to Phoenix. But at the same time, I'd rather have had it be more about Apollo. I'm not sure how they could solve this dilemma though, besides making a new Apollo Justice game... Also, Apollo's profile picture looks way cooler than Phoenix's.

I did not like Vera. I may like drawing, and I may sympathize with her for being sheltered, but the fact that this was the third defendant in a row that would not talk to you properly was getting on my nerves. I also thought that her outfit was kinda creepy. A 19 year old wearing toddler's clothes, REALLY?!? And the worst part is that it somehow seemed to fit her perfectly. I liked young Vera better, at least she seemed happier and more talkative. I do not like Apollo/Vera. Though I can see that the very idea of it was only brought about because fans desperate to ship the two main characters cried their butts out when doing so would result in taboo things. Apollo saying that he felt like he was passing notes to his crush might've helped too...

Now Spark Brushel, that was a man with CLASS. You may have noticed from recent events that he's much more orally hygienic than I am, he's also a way better newsperson than Lotta ever was and maybe best of all, he has the underused Eccentric 2007 theme.

Drew Misham was alright I guess, though I've always been creeped out by the way he was stalking Apollo. I still don't get why...

Valant Gramarye was just as awesome young as he was old, with his beautiful mastery of the english language and his extremely youthful appearance at 37, I felt sorry for him seeing as his dreams were ruined... I cried inside when I thought that Valant might've been the one who killed Magnifi.

Now I never hated Zak, at first I thought he was pretty cool for coming out of the closet back to give the magic to Trucy and to clear Valant's name. However, those Zak is a Jerk comics made me realize something. Since Zak had the real torn off diary page, WHY THE FUCK DIDN'T HE PRESENT THAT TO PHOENIX AT ALL?!? IF HE HAD JUST SHOWN IT TO PHOENIX LIKE DURING THE RECESS OR SOMETHING, KLAVIER WOULD STILL HAVE CALLED DREW MISHAM IN, PHOENIX WOULD'VE PRESENTED THE REAL DIARY PAGE. THEN MISHAM WOULD SAY HE DID NOT FORGE THAT AND YOUNG KLAVIER WOULD'VE BEEN PWNED SO HARD, PHOENIX WOULD STILL BE A LAWYER, AND I WOULDN'T BE TYPING IN CAPS LOCK ABOUT THIS.

Young Klavier was a smooth lawyer, but not one I care for. I hate himfor being even more rock-starry than usual. When Klavier mentioned the "darkness going away" later on, I hope he meant this Klavier was the darkness.

Gumshoe's appearance was minor so there's not much to say. Still, I wonder why he seemed so intent on beating Phoenix this time? I wonder what he would've said when he discovered that he indirectly caused him to lose his badge. In fact, what would Maya say? Or Pearl? Or Iris? Or Edgeworth? Heck, I'd even take Jean Armstrong's opinion on what happened...

Not much to say about Kristoph, I kinda knew he'd be the killer though for some reason, it still shocked me anyway.

Finding out that Trucy and Apollo were siblings made me LAUGH. I laughed and laughed and laughed knowing that now people would hesitate shipping them together. That doesn't stop some people though...

Overall, weird final case. Did better than T&T's final case in terms of gameplay, but worse in the plot.

What did I think of the Countdown? I think that 1-4 and 1-5 need at least 4 or 5 days each while the rest of the cases need only about 2 days.

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And this, people, is why Zak Gramarye Is A Jerk.

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Another one of my absolute favorite cases!

The first case of AJ left us asking a lot of questions, but this case wrapped them all up quite well. I was very pleased with how the case unfolded: Vera's trial, Phoenix's last trial, the MASON segment... it was all done so well.

Vera is my second favorite character in the series, mostly because I feel so much sympathy for her. I have issues with social anxiety myself, so I feel that I understand her behavior well. She's a girl who grew up in a terribly sheltered environment, and thanks to that she still has so much to learn even at the age of 19. I have hope for her, though! It'll be difficult to adjust to a more "normal" life, but I think Apollo and Trucy will be able to help her with it. Her smile at the end of the case was a start.

I feel terrible for Valant, too. He definitely isn't a bad person at heart, but his envy of Zak got to him. I think Spark called it right when he suspected a love triangle between the Gramaryes; Valant had always been jealous of Zak because of his relationship with Thalassa. :< They're all very human characters, and I liked that. Even if Zak was a jerk (Yaragorm summed up my feelings pretty well).

Seeing Kristoph's plan fly back in his face was terribly satisfying. A man who's obsessed with making sure that everything - absolutely everything - goes his way had his "perfect" plan toppled by one of the people he tried to ruin in the past. He's definitely a very ruthless character, but at the same time that ruthlessness is understandable due to his sheer obsession with details; he'll do anything to ensure that things go his way. When they didn't, he completely broke. He's probably my favorite villain in the series.

I'm a bit sad to see the countdown come to an end... but that's because AAI is only a few days away!

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YES I DID! Uh...

Turnabout Succession is my second favourite GS Case. Although it's rather odd, it is my favourite due to the number of plot twists and the interesting style of game play.

The plot was very interesting. I knew that when playing this, Kristoph Gavin's motive would be explained in more detail in this case specifically and I wasn't shocked. It was very clever. I liked how it alternated between Defense Phoenix, Hobo!Phoenix and Apollo. Although there could have been more Apollo, it was still a very good case.

Characters were very fun in this case. Hobo!Phoenix was one of my favourites as his toned down personality was developed more. I really liked Spark Brushel as he was such a funny character to cross-examine. One of my favourite lines is when the Judge reacts and is surprised from Brushel still being in the courtroom. The scoop always comes first, according to Brushel

I felt like screaming when Shadi/Zak came on screen. He's a very, very annoying character and thanks to those "Zak is a Jerk" comics, I understand how evil he is. WHY DIDN'T HE GIVE PHOENIX THAT DIARY PAGE?! He ruined everyone's lives. I bet you that he was the one whose bullet penetrated Thalassa all those years ago.

Valant was super awesome. I love him for not being a super jerk like Zak. Even though he planned to frame Zak, I didn't care as Zak is a jerk after all ;) I really liked how flawless he was in court and out of court. I was sad when his dreams were crushed when Phoenix presented the Gramarye Rights envelope.

I never liked the appearances of Young Klavier, Klavier and Gumshoe in this case. They were pretty pointless and acted really stupid :S

I was shocked when we learned that Apollo and Trucy were siblings but disappointed at how. The creators could have at least given some foreshadowing instead of Zak declaring that Thalassa had a son before Trucy. Since only Apollo fit the age role (and Young!Klavier as well) I knew that it had to be him.

Kristoph's breakdown was awesome. He's one of my favourite characters. I liked how he got his just desserts at the end of the case though.

In conclusion, a very awesome case. I really liked it. My second favourite GS case. Since there is still time left, I'm off to play Gyakuten Kenji :)

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Did you enjoy those comics as much as I did?

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Ah, Turnabout Succession. It's hard to believe this isn't my favorite case from GS4, but I still love it a lot.

Discovering Drew's sketches of Apollo's three cases was a really fantastic "WTF?!" moment. Ema asking Apollo if Drew is his father just makes it even better (that's one "Apollo's father" theory shot down for sure, at least).

Playing through the flashback trial was painful to me since I knew how it would end (poor Phoenix! ). On a different note, it was interesting to see how confident and collected he was during the trial (a nice, deliberate contrast to the previous three games).

I admit the last part of the case wasn't exactly epically difficult, but the drama of the scenario itself was still very satisfying, and Kristoph's breakdown was nothing short of legendary!

Tons more I could mention, but that's what's occurring to me right now. In closing, we all know what Phoenix said in the end about "maybe" taking the bar exam again. Mere fan-bait, a red herring? Probably. Nevertheless, the phoenix never truly fades...it bursts forth in flames to be reborn once again!

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Yeah, I did...halfway through January!

Anyway, I can sum up this case in three parts: the good, the bad and the downright awful.

First of all, everything up to the end of the flashback trial is fine for the most part. The only things that bug me are Vera's non-talkitiveness and the fact that "Spark Brushel Really Gets On My Nerves" end quote.

After that however the case takes a nose dive: instead of "Apollo Justice Ace Attorney", the game suddenly turns into "Phoenix Wright: Ace Investigator". Not only that, the games treats us to watch the same flashback over and over again (it's the bit at the end of the flashback trial where Zak escapes from the courtroom), for seemingly no discernable reason. Also, the whole MASON system has me in a state of disbelief, due to Phoenix presenting evidence he got from the present in the past .

Anyway, after all that is over with we return to the present day and engage in the most disappointing and anti-climatic ending so far. I can sum it up as follows: Kristoph has one testimony, with an easy to find percieve spot/habit. Follow this up with a couple of easy presents and then all that's left to do is to fast forward through Kristoph and Klavier's coversation, watch Kristoph go Super Saiyan (which I have to admit is pretty awesome) and then pick the 'Not Guilty' option.

So yeah, I have to say that I was very disappointed at the ending to this game and I hope that AAI/AJ2 will have better endings than this.

My favorite case in AJ!

Oh... And we are sooo close for AAI!

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Who didn't?

Anyway, I really like this case. It brings back the heavy, dark, and mysterious tone that opened the game in 4-1 and the best case opening I've ever seen. Although Apollo's court sequences were really simple and it was Phoenix pulling the strings behind everything, I thought it was enjoyable to play, even if it was a bit slow. This case experimented with a lot of new things in pretty effective ways, even if the only things the Jurist system contributed at all was to get Kristoph guilty and choose whether you want to see the good or bad endings. I thought that the storyline to this case was good and very gripping. A great end to a good game.

But of course not all questions were answered, especially concerning Apollo, Magnifi, Thalassa, and Kristoph. I know they did it to leave room for sequels but it's been two years with no real announcement. :C

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I have only one question Why did they barely play the Cornered Music

Ah, Turnabout Succession. My second favourite case of the game. I'll divide this review into sections.

Day 1 Investigation- Not bad, but it's quite short, especially since Phoenix says that Apollo can't speak to any of the witnesses (whom we shall never know of).

I liked the poisoned coffee as the cause of death, though. Nice reference to

Day 2 Trial- This was also good. Brushel's animations are awesome, and hilarious! Just trying wrapping your tongue around your head twice!

Day 0 Trial and Investigation- Now this is where the fun begins. I like how Phoenix is more confident, now displaying the confidence he gained by the end of T&T. Now speaking of the trial, I wished they keeped the T&T court music. (Heck, they stole the Attorney's Badge description from it and JFA!)

Gumshoe's attitude is a bit strange, but I suppose he just wants to beat Phoenix for once, (since Phoenix has found a contradiction in just about all of his testimonies. )

Young Klavier is more of a glimmourous fop than his older self. I mean, the guy's a pest. Zak, is a truly a jerk. When I saw he had the real page, I just wanted Phoenix to punch the smug jerk!

Of course, when giving the fatal evidence, and hearing the fatal Take That!, it's sad. Especially when Klavier smacks the wall for what seems like ages. "...Finally"

I do think that if Phhoenix brought up that he only had the case since the previous day, he may have kept his badge.

The final trial is a bit of an Anti-Climax, paleing in the shadow of 1-4, 1-5, 2-4 and 3-5. Only Kristoph testifing, only one testimony and one percieve... disappointing. I didn't think too much of the ending either. Hopefully, GS5 will do far better.

Overall, this is probably the worst-by-comparison finale of the whole series so far, but I still quite like it. Kristoph's hand and Super Saiyan fail were really cool to see, except if you were playing it at 2:00 AM... *shiver*

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Poor Feenie! Hated seeing him lose his badge! Apart from that, I liked the case. Loved being able to use the Mason system!

YES!!! YAY!!! It was sooo much fun playing them all again!

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oh my i loved this chapter

it was bad seeing phoenix lost his badge...i mean i did not want to show that evidence but i had to...

anyway i liked it and the mason system...it was really good

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I liked this case.

...I didn't really like the characters, but they served their roles >_> I didn't like Sparky. He's way too weird!! Also, Zak Gramarye is a jerk. I don't really like Valant too much either. The opening scene with Vera was funny; I didn't really like that she was so quiet, but that was the whole point of her character, so I didn't mind. Polly and Trucy were cool. I STILL HATE KLAVIER WITH ALL MY SOUL.

But still... WHEEEEEEE WE GO TO PLAY AS PHOENIX AND SEE GUMSHOE AND I DON'T CARE IF HE WAS OOC SHUT UP DON'T RUIN IT FOR ME (I think a big chunk of why Phoenix seems ooc is that Maya isn't there... a lot of his character is in their conversations.) I'm just a bit disappointed they didn't bother to scale down the sprites for 7 years ago, so that Klavier and Valant wouldn't seem like giants. Ah well.

Polly's first day in court and Phoenix's day in court were both interesting. I gotta say, I think using a stamp as a murder weapon is my favorite murder method in the entire series. The whole thing with the gun and IV bag was also an interesting plot. (...Why can't I just present the wrong thing instead of the Diary Page? Zak would get a guilty verdict (but really, he deserves it) and Phoenix wouldn't get disbarred! It would be great!) The second day in court was horrible. A simple (although I admit, pretty dramatic) perceive and a few extremely easy presents... It's really b/c of the Jurist System. In the other big cases, it was "Mwa ha ha ha! You don't have any decisive evidence!" "Oh yeah? TAKE THAT!". Here, it was "Mwa ha ha ha! You don't have any decisive evidence!" "Meh, don't need it.". The MASON System was weird, but I was happy to have lots of Psyche-Locks to break :3


Anyway, AAI is almost here! Hurrah! Turnabout Visitor, here we go!

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I didn't like the case. With that, I mean I really liked everything except the ending. There is a huge buildup for some crazy epic showdown with Kristoph, but you contradict him twice and then you vote whether you want him guilty or not. Big woop.

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Really didn't like this case. Mostly because it's slow (even by AJ standards).

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I didn't "make it" exactly but close enough for my purposes.

Anyway I like almost all of this case. The initial investigation and trial (especially Spark Brushel!), the past trial with Phoenix, and the Mason System section were all great fun. The only disappointment is what Tinker essentially said. The ending is built way up and then the final day of trial is one of the dullest. Kristoph's final breakdown is cool but it really doesn't feel like you earned it at all.

I quite liked this case. It's not my favorite but I think it's a pretty good case nonetheless.

Throughout all of this, I feel very sorry for Shadi Enimgar (can't spell it). He never asked to be put through this but in the end he had to be put on trial, get made guilty, then have to be in hiding for seven years and finally get murdered to top it all off.

But one of Capcom's successful cases in the end.

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Most disappointing final case imo.

Kristoph is an interesting main villain, and now it's clear what happened to Phoenix. But, overall, It doesn't compare to other last cases.

Are you joking?

Zak is a JERK.

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This.

It wasn't his fault that Thalassa got hurt (even if he did shoot her, it was still an accident) and that Magnifi used it to blackmail him and Valant, or that Valant tried to frame him. However, if he had just spoken up about the transferral of rights (or done quite a few other things) a lot of tragedy, and everything besides the first thing in that list, could've been avoided.

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This reminds me of a post I made almost two years ago...... Ah, here it is.

Zak was Magnifi's closest apprentice. He probably didn't learn all of that assholery by himself. XD

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You know, looking back at Case 4, Valant looses no mater the out come in Phoenix's trial.

Case A: Zak shows up, Shoots Clown, Gets Rights. Valant shows up, gets nothing.
Case B: Zak shows up, Shoots Magnifi, Rights are lost. Valant shows up, gets nothing.

Considering Zak the Jerk was ordered to come at a time before Valant, there was no way Valant would get a favorable ending.

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Unless you consider Case C.

Case C: Zak doesn't show up at all, but Valant does, Magnifi reluctantly hands over the magic.

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Wouldn't the transferal of rights be part of Magnifi's will, though? So, if case B had happened, wouldn't Valant have got the rights anyway (assuming that Zak had been tried and found guilty)?

Not if Zak hadn't written a normal will. I'm not sure his "estate" could hand out something like that if he hadn't specified somewhere what he wanted done with them. If anything, they might have passed right to his next of kin, Trucy (since Valant wasn't related by blood to them, as far as we know).

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I'm at flash back part one, and I am going to speed through the resto f the case to be able to play AAI tomarrow.

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I meant Magnifi's will, not Zak's (I'm assuming that criminals aren't allowed to profit by comitting crimes in the AA universe).

I just want to say that hearing the original music from AA at the end of the first bit was one of the most epic moments in the series, and seeing li'l Trucy as well as the old courtroom really sent chills down my spine. (This time round, anyway, I played this before AA.) It faded a little when I saw there was no assistant and Phoenix and Gumshoe were awfully OOC, but still. THE MUSIC.

Like many others, I found the last day in court as Apollo was really anticlimatic. I mean, you didn't do any new proving or anything, you just revealed everything Phoenix had been doing for the past 7 years.

Uhm, is it ever explained why Zack didn't show the diary page to Phoenix? I mean, he saw Phoenix receiving the forgery, so he doesn't exactly have an excuse...

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Actually, so did I, oops! Either way, there's no way Valant could inherit something from Magnifi unless Magnifi specified him, since they weren't blood-related family.

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Here's some mega questions for all of you:

1) How did Kristoph get that forgery made? That is, in order for Misham to make the forgery, Kristoph would have to get a sample or the original, correct? How did he do this? Zak had the original page, correct? How would Kristoph have gotten access to this? It makes me wonder if Zak was in with Kristoph on getting the forgery ordered. Either way, it doesn't seem like an easy feat to pull off given his limited access to the case. I know there's the possibility he got the journal from Klavier, but, that seems like a stretch, since he would have had to have done that behind his back.

2) Secondly, we know that Zak was preparing to "disappear" from his trial, so, he didn't need a good lawyer. At all. He could have picked anyone. Additionally, he could have proved his innoncene with the real page, but refrained from providing it, likely because he wanted to lose. So, why did he "test" his lawyer with a poker match? Clearly, the test wasn't actually to determine who his lawyer would be, but, rather, who would take care of Trucy. He wanted to "gauge" Kristoph to see if he would be fit to take care of her, and this was the true purpose of the poker match. Obviously, Kristoph failed. Wright passed, meaning, he could take care of Trucy. But, why? There's more to all this than meets the eye.

3) If Zak were truly innocent (he was), why would he want to go into hiding by losing the case? He could have given the page and proven himself innocent right during his trial. I know people like to rationalize it all away as "he's a jerk," but I think it's vastly more complicated than that. If he wanted to be rid of Trucy, he could have done that in much easier ways. He wanted somebody to take care of Trucy for a reason, and that person also had to pass his "test." This shows he had at least some compassion for her (which, as the game states, you can learn a lot about a person through poker. Maybe it's hard to tell if they'll will win or lose a court case, but, it actually makes sense for something like determining if they can take care of your daughter). In short, Zak's disappearance was deliberate, for a reason that I don't think we know.

4) Kristoph's murdering of Zak 7 years later was quite... uncharacteristic. Number one, how did Kristoph even recognize Zak? Number two, Kristoph committed his crime in such an uncharastically spur-of-the-moment type of way. Why did Zak want to "beat" Wright so badly at that poker match? Because he coudln't stand the notion of a lawyer beating a magician at poker? I don't know, all of these things just smell fishy. It seems like we were given dummy excuses for what really went on at the Borscht Bowl Club that night.

So, any theories?

Klavier said that after Kristoph was kicked off the case, he gave the evidence he had collected to Klavier in order to let him beat Wright. The journal was presumably among Kristoph's evidence before giving it to Klavier.



Because he thought Valant did it and didn't blame Valant for doing it (Zak admitted that he was tempted to shoot Magnifi too). Zak ran away to prevent Valant from getting the blame for the murder.

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Ah, good responses!



Hmmm... this seems plausible enough.

Also, this should probably go in the contradictions section, but, how was it possible for Magnifi to shoot himself without getting fingerprints on the gun? It shows in the hospital pictures that he wasn't wearing gloves, and yet it's mentioned that there wasn't a "print" on the gun.



Hmm an interesting theory, and I like it, although, it makes one wonder why Zak would go through the trouble of finding an attorney to take care of his daughter. Wouldn't it have been better to leave Trucy in Valant's hands? This brings up the main problem I have with this theory, which is, I don't think the two guys liked each other very much. I'm not so sure that Zak would want to take blame for Valant. And obviosly, Valant knew that Magnifi committed suicide, so I fail to see why the both of them didn't work together to ensure that was seen as the truth by the investigation. I mean, after all, it was very possible that at the trial the court comes to the conclusion that it was suicide, and yet do you really think Zak would at that time abandon his plan to disappear? I just don't see why Valant was trying to implicate Zak when he knew it was Magnifi, and why Zak would want to take the fall for him, or that Valant wouldn't be like to Zak "hey, I didn't do it, Magnifi committed suicide... you'll back me up on this, won't you?" That certainly would've been a lot easier than going into hiding for seven years.

Plus, I also have questions about the reason Magnifi was able to coerce Zak and Valant. So, there was an accident involving Thalassa, and Magnifi supposedly convinced both of them that she died. But, by not reporting it to the authorities, Magnifi would be just as guilty of obstruction of justice as either of Zak or Valant. So, how can Magnifi hope to have leverage over Zak and Valant? Plus, only one of them shot Thalassa, so, that, at best, would give Magnifi leverage over one of them, and furthermore, if each thought that the other did it, than they both probably wouldn't care about Magnifi, because they would think they could blame the other person.

I wonder if there is more to the story than we know. After all, we really don't know what the deal was with Thalassa's supposed ex-husband and Apollo's father.