I think Pleady just converted me. Move along, / . I have an new love now.

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Uh err well, I'm not really much of a pairer but I can try my hand at it.

X (naturally)

annnnd that's it. I can't really see Edgeworth and Kay together because they give me that father/daughter impression. I can't really see Edgeworth with Franziska because they are basically brother and sister. I can't really see Lang and Shin'na together... well, you know.

When playing the second case (only on the third one now!) I had a real attachment to Edgey/Rhoda. They seem to fit well together, I think!

As for the coupling I could hate? Don't really have one since I haven't finished the game yet to think of one.

I now declare Lauren/ the hottest thing in the universe. Dangerously close to OTP territory for me.

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Scruffy/Maggey
Totally. :D

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I would have to say Edgeworth x Kay. Maybe it was just me, but it just seemed hinted at through out the game, especially through symbolism. Also, Edgeworth saying something about them both sharing some kind of fate? Anyways, Kay's upbeat personality seems to go well with Edgeworth's personality.

Anyways, what do you think Kay's personality is like in the japanese version? Everytime I see something its japanese form, some characters personalities seem almost different from the english version? Although I haven't seen the japanese version of Gyakuten Kenji, despite the fact that I refer to it by that name, so I can't say if its different!

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Shih-na/Lang is the pairing I love to hate.



Franziska/Lang is amazing though~ and Edgey/Rhoda

I know this is a bit late, but.........

YUS!!!!

Rhoda seems to me like she would be more of Phoenix's type

Phoenix-Rhoda
Larry-Lauren (psycho lovers)
Von karma- lang( violent lovers)
Byrde-gumshoe
Oldbag-Lablanc ( annoying oldies)
After playing 3 and 5 and watching those 2 together, kay and Miles is a perfect match in my opine, they have chemistry.

/ alba
Hot right?

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Maybe it is.

I proudly support (And probably only support) / . And I'm sticking with that. I don't care about their age gap. It's only a number, after all.

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I am probably the biggest Edgeworth/Rhoda supporter ever. I'm not that keen on any other pairing with Edgeworth.

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Well I supported Edgeworth/Gumshoe since the first AA, but I guess now that I got to play a whole game as Edgeworth the pair really grew on me. I really like Gumshoe's loyalty and adoration, and Edgeworth even though he's very dry about it, he obviously cares about him somewhat because otherwise he would have thrown his ass out of his office, wouldn't you agree? I mean, I'm sure he has the authority to. But he didn't. I don't know if it's sympathy for the detective or what, but I think it says something. :]

It's a shame I don't see a lot of art/fic of it. I guess it's because Gumshoe's not as pretty as Edgeworth :\

Anyway, I also kinda like Coachen/Palaeno. I've seen some hilarious fanart.

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I like Shih-Long Lang x Franny.

Die-hard supporter of x

I still haven't found a pairing I like for Edgeworth. Sorry, pal...

I hate Shih-na and Calisto Yew, so I don't like to pair them with anybody. >_>

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Gumshoe is pretty. =]

Have you seen that Japanese artist that draws a crossdressing Gumshoe with pigtails? Now that's a pretty Gumshoe. XD

I don't think he's ugly, but I think people like to draw him with Phoenix more because Phoenix is better looking in their eyes. >.> I like Phoenix/Edgeworth too, but Edgeworth/Gumshoe gets so little love!

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Maggey pretty much killed the Edgeworth / Gumshoe ship for me. (Up until she was introduced, though, I might have actually considered it.)

I'm all for crack pairings, so the thought of Gumshoe with anyone other than Maggey doesn't particularly offend me, but I personally tend to consider Gumshoe / Maggey the closest major relationship to canon in the entire series. Subsequently, I can't say there's a really strong intellectual interpretation of Ace Attorney's script that can lead you to an objective conclusion that Gumshoe would be with anyone else. It'd require you to willingly ignore miles of / subtext.

I do think there's sufficient evidence that can be interpreted to justify an analysis of Edgeworth as gay, but I'm pretty convinced that his feelings (whether for Phoenix, or Gumshoe, or anyone else) would go unrequited.

From a crack pairings perspective, though? Edgeworth and Gumshoe would be yummy (if you're into yaoi, I suppose. I can't say I'd share the interest, but I can generally pick out "men perceived as physically attractive" from a crowd well enough to understand it.) So I certainly can't blame you for dreaming it up.

Edit: I think one issue with these "pairings" threads is that they don't really distinguish between "crack pairings" and "pairings justifiable via an objective analysis of Ace Attorney," and there's just a huge distinction between the two. The former is fun and light-hearted and adds a dose of levity to things, but the latter leads to serious debates and strenuous objections. It's difficult insofar as the nature of these threads kinds of combines the two haphazardly, so it's difficult to tell whether someone is seriously advocating a pairing as a legitimate interpretation or simply goofing off and pairing two attractive characters for grins and giggles.

Well, I always got the feeling Gumshoe was playing up his own feelings about Maggey honestly. It seemed fake to me. I didn't really like her too much as a character, either, so that probably didn't help the fact I don't like the two together all that much.

I never saw it as a crack pairing, but I did see it as rather one-sided on Gumshoe's part until GK. I don't know exactly what about GK made it seem like it could happen a bit more realistically, though my shipping goggles went off majorly at the end of GK-4.

I think I read somewhere that it's a fact that Edgeworth isn't attracted to women. Even if it wasn't stated anywhere though, that seems to be the case anyway. Although I must say that, when it comes to shipping, a lot of people disregard sexuality.

What I like about the pairing mostly, is Gumshoe's personality and loyalty towards Edgeworth. He seems like such a great guy, honestly, and he needs some love!

I agree with you about crack pairings and serious ones. I've shipped some crack before, but most of everything I ship is serious or moderately serious. There is a bit of a grey area between crack and serious, since I like to think of serious ships as things people either want to become canon or don't ship contradictorily in their own head [ex: someone that claims their OTP is Phoenix/Edgeworth, doesn't really fight for it to become canon or anything but doesn't ship Phoenix or Edgeworth with anyone else because it messes with their OTP. See what I'm saying? Hope I explained it well enough].

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Assuming that your statement is accurate, though, we'd next to have to ask why Gumshoe would deliberately string Maggey along and potentially hurt her feelings (in "pretending" to feel such affection for her.) I suppose you could make a theoretical argument that Gumshoe was closeted and trying to get under Edgeworth's skin or something, but the number of hoops you'd have to jump through to make that chain of logic sensible seems ludicrous. Perhaps most importantly, you'd be condemning Gumshoe's character by presuming that such an upstanding guy would toy with Maggey without reciprocating.

(I guess you could argue that Gumshoe is bisexual and thus mutual interested in Edgeworth and Maggey, but that brings about its own problems. Even assuming bisexuality, if Gumshoe has strong feelings for Edgeworth, pursuing Maggey doesn't quite compute. His personality type as a gullible, honest, lovable guy doesn't suggest he'd try to pursue multiple options at once, either.)



Hmm. You see, I would have actually said the opposite; I would have said if anything, that the evidence pre-GK backed the possibility of Edgeworth having feelings for Gumshoe (or men in general) moreso than the vice-versa conclusion.
Edgeworth's borderline-asexual attitude towards relationships fits in well with closeted homosexuality, he shows no preferential or deferential treatment towards attractive women, and as GK later supports, he barely seems to understand or acknowledge girls' infatuations with him (they're the "frothing masses.") By contrast, Gumshoe clearly is shown romantically pursuing at least one woman, and his behavior around men and women seems easier to directly contrast.

That doesn't quite justify whether Gumshoe or Edgeworth specifically have feelings for each other, but without diving too much into specific quotes or evidence, I tend to perceive the evidence as supporting Gumshoe as heterosexual and Edgey as asexual, pansexual, or possibly gay.



I always disliked this approach from the objective standpoint, because it seems to suggest that we should always presume that every character is bisexual. We don't do that when we're pursuing relationships in real life, for obvious reasons. Most men and women are heterosexual, and even homosexuals outnumber bisexuals (if dating sites like OKCupid are to be believed.)

Even most "bisexuals" either "prefer to enter relationships with men" or "prefer to enter relationships with women." In fact, most bisexuals have such a strong preference that they're effectively either heterosexual or homosexual when pursuing serious relationships; their "bisexuality" simply refers to a willingness to engage in casual relations with either gender, but they have a clear preference as to which gender they'd ultimately settle down with and marry.

Again, from a crack pairing perspective? In that frivolous context I'm all for us pairing attractive characters with each other, regardless of their sexuality or their contrasting personality types or whether they even canonically meet or interact in the games they're from. It's fun to pair Dahlia with Engarde, for example, despite the fact that they never share a scene together.

When I objectively analyze characters, though, I like to at least try to make a conclusion regarding their sexuality before pairing them. We'd be offended in the real world if a hypothetical third-party observer tried to pair us without asking us which gender we'd prefer to sleep with beforehand! I try to keep that in mind when imagining where the characters should end up; as if we're truly imagining them as independent people within the context of their narratives.



This reminds me of a recent conversation I had with a friend where I told her that, if an alien from a faroff planet were to observe me and my life without knowing anything about human genders or sexuality, it would inevitably pair me off romantically with one of my guy friends. I get along best, am closest to and most loyal to a few of the men I know in my life; I've even experienced more physical and emotional intimacy with guy friends than the ladies lately (which is really more a testament to my poor luck these days than anything else; I should probably also specify that "physical intimacy" in this context is referring to hugs, and "emotional intimacy" is referring to declarations like "I love you, bro," which I'll happily indulge in with my bromances.)

I guess what I'm saying is, I sure hope that qualities like "loyalty" and "compassion" necessarily equate to sexual chemistry.



Yeah, I think I understand what you're saying.
I ship and quite seriously, for example, and wouldn't ship them with anyone else. That being said, the idea that Capcom might make and or and canon doesn't particularly offend me or anything. Those are all serious possibilities and I respect the shippers who support those pairings.

But I do think there's a clear difference between "ships that are logically supported and could theoretically happen" and "total crack pairings that make no sense at all."

Like, from my perspective, just using Phoenix as an example: I could see with , , , or . I don't personally agree with or support each of those pairings with equal fervor, but in all four cases there is sufficient dialogue in the game and theoretical arguments could feasibly be made to support the outcomes. Hence why those particular ships have strong shipping communities.

Those ships all just feel totally different to me than, say, and or and or even and . Those kinds of pairings just really don't strike me as feasible at all, it's like throwing two random darts at a wall and settling on pairing the characters chosen by lottery.
That's kind of the distinction I'd like the shipping community to make. (Does that make any sense?)

Also, Maxie: Sincere apologies for the Walls of Text. (Nearly everyone who's started a conversation with me here at Court Records has learned firsthand just how much I love to rant. About nearly any topic.)

You're definitely right. But I thought about it, and here's what I have to present: Gumshoe was playing up his own affections as a form of repressing his feelings for Edgeworth. Sort of like someone saying "I really like boobies! That means I'm not gay. Did I mention I'm not gay?" Under my interpretation at least, it seems very in character for him to do something like that and not realise it might hurt someone. It also makes sense realistically, as I've had a friend that has done the exact same thing - acted like he loved a girl to hide his own homosexuality. [said friend also acts a lot like Gumshoe, oddly...]


Oh? As I played the first three games I was under the impression Gumshoe liked Edgeworth [especially during 1-4], though never Edgeworth until GK. I'm thinking things like GK-4 most specifically. Though I'm certainly curious for any examples, as I might be forgetting something.


Pansexual Edgeworth? Interesting. I like to think of him as gay, myself, though not based on his mannerisms or dress like a lot of people [and the assumption Edgeworth is gay just because he dresses "in pink" and wears ruffles is irksome] but because of pretty much what you said here:


I did too, mostly because sexuality fascinates me and I like speculating at unknown facts when interpreting fandom. It's fun, and comparing other peoples' interpretations and conclusions is great. Oh and yes, homosexuals do outnumber bisexuals, though bisexuals do get the "biggest lot to pick from" as I've heard being said before. A lot of them lean one way or another even to the point of being effectively heterosexual or homosexual because they try to keep an open mind, instead of saying it the way I would: "I have a strong preference for one gender over the other, but there are exceptions." On the Kinsey scale this would be 1 or 5, which isn't considered bisexual.


This, so much.


In the Ace Attorney fandom I don't believe there are any characters I wouldn't ship with anyone else, except maybe Gumshoe but not because he's part of my OMGOTP - because I don't really like Maggey as a character that much even though it doesn't bother me that he's paired with her and it's pretty damn close to being canon [I'd call it "borderline"] and there aren't any other real options except Franziska. I've humored Franziska/Gumshoe and it's got a nice charm to it and it's decently feasible, but it isn't my kind of pairing.

There is a clear difference, I'll agree there. I'm a bit more laidback with my ships, possibly because what I ship is uncommon so I'll settle for "a good second choice". Nobody ships Edgeworth/Gumshoe, so I settle for Phoenix/Edgeworth. I can see any of the pairs you mentioned becoming canon though some of them would probably make me pretty angry.

One thing I really like is trying to justify a crack pairing. Take two characters that have never met onscreen but there would be a high probability they could meet under certain circumstances [any two murderers, for instance, could meet in prison] and create a scenario that could make sense given the characters' established personalities. That's something if done right I could seriously ship and get behind, and have fun with at the same time. :]

As for the walls of text™, I don't mind at all. I like debating these types of things, really :]

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First, I'll say you've provided a considerably more objective and in-depth analysis of the possibility of / than I had assumed would be feasible.

I'd certainly never entirely agree with your perception of the pairing, but I'm nonetheless impressed. So, thanks for proving me wrong (well, at least "proving me wrong" insofar as Edgeworth and Gumshoe together isn't quite the Crack Pairing material I assumed it would be.)



I'd say, "we really shouldn't justify our pairings based on extrapolations derived from real-life circumstances," but a decent amount of my own interest in / stems from the energy of their antagonistic quarrels and how I'd prefer something like that in my own relationships with women, so I certainly can't be too critical!

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on Gumshoe's characterization. I just can't see him as the type of guy who'd willingly lead Maggey on (and even date her, as GK canonically implies) if he were truly gay. One issue that immediately comes to mind is that there's just so many less hurtful ways for Gumshoe to "attempt to come across as heterosexual" if he was that concerned with his image, or that closeted regarding his own sexuality. One would expect an over-compensating protagonist to flirt excessively but in a harmless manner, with women he would anticipate would not reciprocate; but we really don't see Gumshoe "striving to prove his heterosexuality" in a similar manner with many other women.

Furthermore, there's also the whole "sausage weenies" incident, in which Gumshoe just seems so genuine. He's concerned Maggey will no longer appreciate or desire him, and that concern really gnaws at him in a way that doesn't quite seem to fit with an interpretation that the entire relationship is a farce or that "he's putting on an act." We also don't hear any discontent or concern from Maggey (which we might expect if Gumshoe was truly conflicted about his sexuality and/or using her to "prove" his heterosexuality.)

Finally, we're talking about Edgeworth here in the role of Gumshoe's idol and boss -- i.e., the person in the authoritative role we'd presume Gumshoe would be putting on this act to deceive. Aside from the question of why Gumshoe would attempt to deceive the man he likes into believing he's heterosexual, there's also simply the fact that Edgeworth (and Franny, too) seem two of the most well-educated, non-traditionalist, intellectual liberals around; not the types who'd strike me as being really offended if Gumshoe "came out of the closet." Maybe I just tend to perceive the world of Ace Attorney as slightly more "alternative sexuality friendly" than it really is, and maybe Gumshoe would face repercussions...but that's not the impression I'd gotten.



I'm pretty sure GK-2 actually included the "frothing masses" quote (maybe in relation to Rhoda, maybe not.) But yeah, we did benefit tremendously from actually "getting inside Edgeworth's mind" in Investigations, whereas before we were largely limited to Phoenix's perspective.
I'll see if I can dig up specific quotes for you at a later date (when I'm a bit less tired) but there's no "smoking gun" here; it's moreso a collection of evidence supporting a conclusion that characters like Phoenix and Gumshoe react to the presence of attractive women, whereas Edgeworth does not; and that supports asexuality, pansexuality, or homosexuality. (Take your pick.)

Also, I personally have this weird theory regarding relationships that many shippers here would probably disagree with; I tend to find signs of antagonism as better signs of romantic chemistry and romantic interest than signs of endearment or support. It's akin to the "opposites attract" theory, albeit less related to opposite personalities (which may not attract at all) and more regards "opposing interactions." So when Edgeworth complains about Gumshoe, it shows me something that could be interpreted as passion masked in layers of feigned discontent; whereas when a character compassionately assists another, it's often evidence that the relationship between them is so straightforward that no sexual chemistry "beneath the surface" exists.

This is one of several factors that leads me to find and appealing, but it also enables me to, for example, potentially view 's constant aggravation with Gumshoe as a sign that Edgeworth holds Gumshoe to a higher standard and is upset when Gumshoe cannot meet it, truly cares about Gumshoe; this sense of "caring" comes off as berating or antagonizing because there's sexual tension; and he cannot simply be supportive and pleasant because the sexual interest clouds his judgment, unsettles his thoughts and over-complicates his feelings. Whereas Gumshoe, strictly liking Edgeworth platonically, doesn't complicate his friendship with questions about "love" and whether Edgeworth meets his own artificial standards or whether Edgeworth might reciprocate; so when Edgeworth is in trouble, Gumshoe is simply able to be platonically supportive and compassionate in an utterly inoffensive way. From his perspective, the friendship is simple, his affection for Edgeworth is simple, and there are no ulterior motives at stake.

I think a lot of people view ships from the prism or perspective of trying to match characters up with those they get along with best, or those they're most forward and upfront in supporting and "caring for." From my perspective and given my theories about ships, though, the few moments where I actually can see some merit to the / ship (just as an example) are the moments where they really get into each other's skin. The more you like someone, the more your inflated perspective of them, combined with your constant and borderline obsessive analysis of their actions and behavior, leads you to question their motives ("Does he like me? Do I really like him? Why is he saying this, or doing that? Does he like HER? Why would he like her? I'm better than her!") And that leads to frustration, arguments, debates, quarrels, complaints, long sighs, misunderstandings, disagreements...and passion, and chemistry.

...And after you start dating them and things start to get serious, that's when the mutual support and the compassion and the understanding between co-dependent partners develops.
(I do find at least some support in my approach when I consider all my favorite canon couples from movies, novels, and even in real life; they're always bickering and prodding each other, forcing each other to grow while simultaneously challenging each other to rise "above their comfort zones.")



I'm glad you feel that way, as I strongly agree there. The gender binary construct and the notion that certain behaviors, dispositions, hobbies or interests are inherently "feminine" or "masculine" aggravates me to no end.



I'm tempted to say that I'm surprised you agreed with me here but later mentioned that you shipped and ; given Phoenix's canonical and obsessive relationship with Dahlia in college, I tend to have difficulties agreeing with any interpretations that Phoenix is gay (and even arguments that he's bisexual often manages to stretch my suspension of disbelief, although I'll at least concede there's no definitive evidence ruling against the possibility.)
In the end I accept and as an objectively permissible interpretation if only because they're so emotionally and mentally close that if there's any chance Phoenix would consider dating men, he should probably date Edgey...
...but even conceding that, I almost always come to the inevitable conclusion that the evidence strongly supports a presumption of heterosexuality for Phoenix (his mannerisms around attractive men and attractive women are so different, he seems almost homophobic at moments around Armstrong, his internal monologues around women like April May, his comment that Franziska is "cute" in GS 3-5 and his tulips to her in GS 2-4, his blushes and his reactions when Pearls keeps throwing Maya in his face, there's some early tension that might suggest a crush between him and Mia in GS 1-1, etc.)

So I'd be quite curious, given your stated interest in debating the sexuality of characters, as to how you justify an interpretation that Phoenix might be sexually interested in men.



The easy solution if you're worried about Franziska intruding on your / ship is to pair Franziska off with another eligible bachelor.
There's one I'd certainly recommend!



Of the ones I mentioned, only Phoenix and Iris (post GS 3-5, when Phoenix has supposedly matured well beyond his college-era obsessions; obviously, they canonically went out in college) would really upset me.
Even then, if Capcom wrote it well I could see myself begrudgingly buying into it. I consider the Iris pairing as a possible "regression" for Phoenix (and there are a lot of shippers here who would definitely disagree with me), but it's only a "regression" insofar as Iris continues to behave as she did in GS 3-5. By the Apollo Justice timeframe, she could be a totally different person. I'd still dislike it from a thematic perspective (giving Dahlia's accomplice a free pass doesn't sit well with me, no matter the presumed purity of Iris' intentions) but I can live with it.


...Finally, trust me when I say that you're going to seriously regret tacitly encouraging my habit of tossing up walls of text.

Thank you :] I love alternate character interpretation, lol


Really? I figure that would be great basis of a pairing, because it's realistic. Quarrels never appealed to me. I know real life romance is abound with quarrels, but I've never liked them in pre-romantic conditions. It doesn't seem genuine to me, but then again, I've fallen victim to being treated horribly by people that crushed on me. It's not fun being on that end, and it isn't cute, either. I like Franziska as a character but I'd hate to be her love interest.


Ah, how about this: he may have an attraction to her, or he may have some sort of attraction that he is mistaking for love but it actually isn't. He then wouldn't be concerned about his sexuality or image at that point.


This can be explained by what I said above - if he does like her or if he thinks he likes her, then this makes sense.


I can say upfront that coming out to someone, especially your boss can be very difficult even if they think they will accept you. Add on to my hypothetical interpretation of Gumshoe not really knowing his own sexuality, so Edgeworth would be the very first person he'd tell in this little scenario. That's a lot of pressure, without even mentioning that he has feelings for him. Think of it this way: "Hey boss, I'm gay and I like you." Talk about dropping a bomb - one you're not even sure of too well.


Actually I'm pretty sure that quote came up first in 3-5, though I do think it popped up again in GK somewhere.


While this makes sense and it's a different and very interesting interpretation, I have a hard time agreeing with certain aspects of it which I explained above. To me antagonism just strains a relationship even more, though seeing someone you like not being up to your standards I can get behind and find it realistic.


I hate it as I take offense to it personally, since apparently I'm supposed to follow some sort of stereotype, being multiple things that a lot of people don't fully understand.


You got it.

I don't really know what to call Phoenix's sexuality to be honest. I might say he's heterosexual with exceptions [effectively, a Kinsey 1]. He does react to attractive women and his obsession with Dahlia can't be ignored. However, his reaction to Armstrong doesn't mean much - people simply aren't used to seeing someone like that. I wouldn't call it homophobic, I'd call it just plain phobic. But I agree with you that if he was going to date a guy it would be none other than Edgeworth. There's just too much evidence for that pair. XD


Actually it isn't because of it breaking my ship, it's because it isn't the type of ship I like. I like strong character dynamics and bonds - I don't like "I have no idea if I like you or not so I'm going to hurt you because for some reason people think this is cute". Phoenix/Franziska isn't too bad of a ship, though, but I'm not sure what I think about it.


Phoenix/Iris would make me angry for the same reasons you stated, but part of it is because I didn't like Iris much as a character. She seemed too much like a magical Mary Sue. I wouldn't know what to think if Phoenix/Franziska became canon because that would seem almost out of nowhere to me - sure, there's evidence to support it, but it would still feel random to me.


I'm quite enjoying our little battle of wits, it makes me feel like... I'm playing Ace Attorney! XD

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This definitely gets a bit into personal and subjective desires in regards to the types or kinds of relationships one pursues. Nonetheless, I do want to correct statements I've made that may have led to a misjudgment on your part. While I do like the verbal antagonism and bickering between Phoenix and Franziska (and between romantic interests in general), I'm not a huge fan of the whipping. I know some out there might find Franziska appealing due to sadomasochism, but I'm not one of those people. I don't think Phoenix is, either; he's genuinely angry enough when the whippings occur.

Aside from pairings of Franny and Larry (and possibly Franny and Adrian,) I'd imagine just about every other Franny pairing requires an assumption that she'd grow and mature through the relationship and stop the whipping habit. This may seem like a generous assumption, as it's true that a person's personality can't suddenly change just because they've entered into a relationship.

However, I think it's important to distinguish a personality trait from a physical habit or action. From Franziska's perspective, I view the physical violence as less an indelible element of her personality and more a bad Von Karma impulse, akin to a subconscious habit like biting one's nails (this is supported by the fact that she is not, truly, a terribly evil person; see the end of GS 2-4 and her concern for Phoenix's well-being in GS 3-5.) Her whipping stems from angry feelings, but the angry feelings sort of "automatically flip on" a faulty switch in her brain that leads to the whipping. That's akin to how someone might constantly resort to biting one's nails whenever he or she feels nervous. It's a social flaw resulting from her upbringing that she could mature from (and that she shows signs of growing out of in terms of her character growth between GS2 and GS3) in the exact same way that Edgeworth abandons the Von Karma philosophy and becomes a better person as a direct result of Phoenix's positive influence.

So, let me just establish that I completely agree with you that relationships involving physical violence are generally unhealthy. When I say that I like the Phoenix and Franziska pairing because of the "acrimony," I'm referring to their verbal spars, and not so much the whip-wielding antics. (I'm also being somewhat more generous to Franziska than I would a woman who whipped others in real life, insofar as the narrative of Ace Attorney guides us to; we're practically guided by the hand to feel sympathy for her.)



I understand your point, but I just feel that it seems more reasonable to assume that Gumshoe's behavior towards Maggey is honest and genuine unless evidence exists to suggest otherwise. It's akin to why I'd similarly argue that Phoenix's fundamentally different behavior, canonical past relationships, and internal monologues around women establishes something of a presumption of heterosexuality that requires evidence to debunk. It is theoretically possible, of course, that Gumshoe is struggling with his sexuality throughout his pursuit of Maggey. It just seems extraordinarily unlikely; the odds seem against it.

I like to revert to societal norms as "tiebreaker" when direct quotes from the narrative don't really establish a clear position on an issue. For example, my belief that Franziska's whip wielding antics stems from "curable" immaturity and a "curably" flawed upbringing as opposed to an incurably violent disposition stems partially from canon facts and canon dialogue (her breakdown with Edgeworth at the end of GS 2-4, the fact that she's only nineteen) but also from a broader sociological analysis. If confronted by a nineteen year old violent child prodigy, raised by a convicted murderer and a corrupted attorney, we would interpret Franziska's disposition as an "immature" side-effect of her pursuit of perfection, as opposed to an "unredeemable" trait.

Similarly, if we were confronted with a generally honest, upstanding, adorably loyal and quaint Detective and saw him earnestly pursuing a girl, and saw no evidence whatsoever to support a conclusion that he was conflicted or hiding an alternative sexuality, societal norms would lead us to assume that he most likely was a heterosexual man (or a man who at least "preferred women") and that his intentions in pursuing a relationship were sincere and not misguided. A few simple lines of dialogue that established ambiguities in Gumshoe's character would rebut this assumption (in a way comparable to how a presumption of heterosexuality would be easily rebutted with Edgeworth; there's plenty of dialogue with Edgey that can reasonably be interpreted to support a conclusion that he does not find women physically attractive.) It just strikes me as making more sense to rely on facts and societal norms to establish sexuality before relying on a series of interpretative assumptions.

(Of course, all of this relies somewhat on settling on a definition of sexuality before even beginning the debate. If you're a fervent believer in the psychologically popular notion that "everyone is inherently and to some extent bisexual," then you may have a stronger case simply by ruling out heterosexuality or homosexuality as options from the outset. I personally disagree with this notion...not because I perceive every "straight" or "gay" person as necessarily 100% "straight" or 100% "gay," but rather because I perceive the vast majority of people (and even most bisexuals) as having a strong enough preference in favor of pursuing one gender or the other that they can be treated as "effectively" heterosexual or homosexual when analyzing their behavior.)



This is an accurate concern and not one I had not thoroughly considered when debating my position.
(My apologies. It's easy for those of us who identify as "heterosexuals" to fall into hetero-normative assumptions, and I can't really fathom what it would truly be like to "come out" to your boss. My inability to consider this properly stems from a lack of firsthand knowledge of the hardships GLBT groups suffer from in contemporary society, but not from any willful ignorance that such hardships exist in the first place.)

Even assuming a gay Gumshoe would feel horrifically awkward with the notion of "coming out" to his superiors, however, there were plenty of opportunities in the context of Ace Attorney's script for Gumshoe to hint (to the gamer, if not to any other character) of his true sexuality. The fact that Capcom didn't exploit these opportunities (as they did with Edgeworth, frankly) supports a conclusion that we weren't intended to infer that Gumshoe was gay.

Gumshoe interacts frequently with Phoenix and Maya outside of the spectrum of his employment responsibilities, for example, and Edgeworth's "best friend" would both represent a potential romantic rival and a great source of relational intel. And even the most closeted of characters in the literary world have moments of vulnerability where they "let their guard down" and their true colors surface.



I think the problem you're having is less with the interpretation itself and more with my inability to accurately represent it (because I'm nowhere near the argumentative genius I like to pretend I can be.) My error in my previous post was portraying only one aspect of the Franziska and Phoenix pairing that appeals to me (the antagonism) and portraying it as separate and independent from other factors. Antagonism alone doesn't provide sufficient chemistry or passion to sustain romantic interest. If Franziska and Phoenix merely mutually disliked and constantly disagreed with each other, that on its own wouldn't make for much of an argument in favor of "them dating."

I think the key is whether the antagonism stems from a deeper, more positive and more conciliatory interest, as opposed to the antagonism just existing in a vacuum.
I interpret Franziska and Phoenix's mutual antagonism as stemming from positions of mutual interest, tainted by each other "falling short."

Franziska looks at Phoenix and says quietly to herself "What a handsome guy...it's too bad he's a naive idiot and a terrible attorney who relies on bluffs as opposed to sound legal philosophy. And it's too bad he's directly responsible for my beloved father's tarnished reputation and imprisonment."

Phoenix looks at Franziska and says quietly to himself "She's drop-dead gorgeous. It's too bad she's the violent whip-wielding maniac daughter of the murdering psychopath who killed Edgeworth's father." (This latter interpretation is particularly well supported by Phoenix's own internal monologues on the subject.)

If they merely hated each other and felt no sexual chemistry, they'd avoid or ignore each other, or their arguments would be bland and quickly terminated; neither would view each other as worthy of wasting time on. The intensity and passion of their antagonism stems (as I believe such intensity and passion would stem in real life) from their mutual interest and their mutual disappointment with each other's flaws and foibles.

Under my theory, then, Franziska passionately pushes Phoenix's buttons and forcibly intrudes on Phoenix's investigation in GS3-5 because she's desperately searching for evidence that Phoenix isn't in fact a dimwitted dolt and would in fact merit her romantic interest. Her true colors show when Phoenix's life is in jeopardy, and she suddenly lets her guard down and concedes that she's worried about him.
Phoenix gives Franziska tulips and visits her in the hospital in GS2-4 despite his disdain for her because he's desperately searching for her "better half" and a justification for his romantic and sexual interest in her. He has no obligation to do so, and if he truly merely hated her he'd just avoid any interaction outright. Yet he's repeatedly willing to indulge Franziska because he wants to believe she is an inherently better person than she comes across, and this belief is driven by the fact that she is "cute" and they honestly enjoy each other's company better than either can confess. The antagonism stems from their mutual desire for the other to prescribe to their idealized notions of what their future partner should act like.

Which is precisely what I'd argue, for the record, happens with a multitude of other characters in literature and cinema. Leia Organa was raised to believe she'd probably marry gentlemanly nobility, and here comes this suave, unsophisticated and undiplomatic smuggler named Han who pushes her buttons. She's attracted to him, but he's not what she expected, so she antagonizes him, prodding him deliberately to either provide a sufficient defense to justify his behavior (and thus, justify her own interest in him) or simply pushing herself out of her own comfort zone (realizing that she can feel affection for a guy who doesn't fit her preconceived conception of an ideal partner.) I guess my error in my previous post was merely establishing the antagonistic element without noting that the romantic interest has to precede it.

There's an even longer argument I could make, believe it or not. Much longer, honestly, and an argument that dived more into meta arguments about the narrative of Ace Attorney as a whole. Just ask poor Asa Turney, who has had the misfortune of being bombarded by more walls of my text than can or should reasonably be justified. Honestly, I feel bad for the poor girl. No one, and certainly none of you, deserves to read to my at-times incoherent and neverending rants.

Anyway, maybe it's best we take future arguments to PMs. I always hate this perpetual feeling that I'm ruining everyone else's threads by simply showing up and tossing up walls of text that hardly any sane human being would want to drift through. Sorry everyone.

x This ship just makes me feel like people are desperate to pair Miles with someone female who isn't (pseudo) related to him. Unfortunately, if you ask me, this still falls under that category. Miles clearly treats Kay like a daughter, unconsciously or not, to the point of where even Kay noticed the similarity and remarked on it. If that isn't good enough, the age gap between them is enormous enough to deliver a good amount of uneasiness - almost 10 whole years. Miles does not view her as an adult, and therefore an equal, which I think is a necessary component to spark a relationship (If you're not a pedophile, controlling, or some combination of both.) I strongly feel this pairing is just morally incorrect.

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Two words: Edgeworth/Rhonda
(The only Edgey pairing I'm an avid supporter of)


...HOW DID I NOT THINK OF THIS PAIRING BEFOOORE!!!???
Must.Look.Up.Fan.Art.NOW.

Oh, and gallowsCalibrator, I think you may have stumbled across the wrong thread.

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Oh drats, you're right. I was reading a topic very similar to this earlier before I registered and just went looking for it again so I could have my little self-satisfying soapbox moment. I must of spaced out and not realized they were slightly different... Oh well. Reposting it in the appropriate place then. I can keep the bit about Kay, though.

Okedoke! And yes, you can keep the part about Kay, kay? (I HAD to do that, sorry >_<)
Back on topic...Even though one of my favourite ships would be broken...I've always had the idea of Rhonda X Cammy in the back of my mind. EVEN THOUGH I LOVE EDGEWORTH/RHONDA!!!!
I always feel like I'm cheating on pairings when I put one of the people in one pairing with another person in another pairing...

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Yep, that's the same way I feel. I'll admit though that at some point I did like the idea of them together, and thought it was adorable, especially how their colors are even similar to each other. Their reds at least. But when I read Kay's remark on it, it completely confirmed for me that she'd never feel that way for Edgeworth, even more so when GK2 took the father daughter like relationship even further. Canonwise, it wouldn't make any sense, but does this mean I don't find the idea the least bit cute? Nah.

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That picture is indeed cute, and part of me did wish for some canonical romance material before I started playing, if only to prove to some that Miles can have an interest in girls, but ... as mentioned before, that age gap makes me leery, even if their relationship hadn't gone the route it had. I'm glad it did though, they complement each other well in that way, and seeing Miles get all protective over Kay and scold her in a fatherly fashion is even cuter then any pairing ... in my mind.

Oh god this.^ Couldn't agree with ya more on that. The only thing that might make sense for Kay is probably Yumihiko, since their both the same age and all, but I can't think of any other reason why since we hardly know anything about the dialogue if any is exchanged between those two in the game.

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Funny thing about Yumihiko, but when I was browsing Pixiv they were really big on sticking him with Kay. It could be for the reasons you listed, or perhaps there's dialogue suggesting something between them... we'll have to see. If there is, I might have to ship them. There's something about Yumihiko that attracts my attention as it is, even though I suspect he's going to be an annoyance at times.

Okay! Here's the pairings I like a lot:
EdgeyXFranzy
ShiinaXRou
FranzyXRou
CammyXRhoda
CalistoXByrne
ShiinaXFranzy
EdgeyXRou

Okay, that just says I'm not too picky with pairings for some reason.

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I'm battling my way through Kenji 2 (stupid lack of furigana...) and haven't even gotten past much of Case 1, but as to regards of Edgeworth's game anyway, I gotta say.... without Phoenix.... nah, can't get any pairing into my head regarding Edgeworth. (For me, it's / all the way)
Unless I get really sick and say / , but I really don't want to traumatize the guy anymore than he already is.... but his game(s) really don't show much of anything yet. Even supposedly with Kay, not that I find it squickish, I just find it so annoying.... not everybody needs a teen-sidekick, Capcom! (Plus.... I just don't see anything that those two could somehow have in common, as a basis for a relationship or romantic interest)

Otherwise, if I had to pick a pairing in Investigations, probably Gumshoe and Maggey.

C-A

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Umm... personally I ship X because they're kinda' like... fit for each other (to me both of them are tsundere so I feel like they're such a perfect pair and cute).

Others include X or X .

Kay and Edgeworth is more like umm... protagonist-sidekick friendly relationship to me.

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I've never even heard about Gumshoe x Kay, so completely out of curiosity: why?

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I wouldn't mind seeing Edgeworth and Rhoda together. They'd probably complement each other well

Maybe the past and somewhat present relationship they had that was shown in Turnabout Reminiscence? I don't know, that's not one I really get...

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I like Gumshoe x Kay as a kind of uncle/niece, platonic, familial relationship. Maybe it's just me, but I saw nothing in their interactions to even hint romance. Gumshoe loves kids... he just doesn't love kids, if you get my drift...

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