This is something that came to me, when I thought about the recent lack of Apollo and Trucy in things relating to AA, while Kay and Edgey are showcasted more than ever before. Especially striking to me, since the 10th anniversary keychains included Apollo, Trucy and the Gavins, thus making up a good percentage of the total choice of available keychains. But now, AJ themed costumes are missing completly from Phoenix' alternate color schemes in Marvel VS Capcom an Apollo is also nowhere to be found on the Gyakuten Saiban jubilee art that was revealed.

First, I feared that this was simply Capcom's way of showing that they no longer cared even the least bit for AJ and wanted to pretend game never happened, but then I realized that this makes no sense: AJ's fanbase has been growing in recent years, the hate slowly diminishing, and even many haters of the plotline came to adore Apollo, Trucy and Klavier. So, denying their existence would not make a whole lot of sense, seeing how capcom, on many occasions, has prooven that they are keeping up with the fanbase. Yes, I know, there are still many AJ haters out there, but from my observations, the number of AAI haters is just as great, so including Kay in the costumes, for example, kinda negates the theory that this was done because they deemed Apollo and trucy too "unpopular". So, I thought a bit and came up with the following theory.

Emphasis here on THEORY. I do not and will never claim that this is what will happen or that it was the only logical conclusion. It's just a possible explanation that came to me:

Remember the recent rumors that members of the GK2 team are working on GS5? The 4chan rumors, that not too many people believed? Well... what if those rumors are true...
...and the true reason for Apollo and Trucy not having been showcasted recently is that they have been completly redesigned in terms of looks for the new game and Capcom is trying to keep their new designs secret until the anniversary?

My idea is simple: In order to avoid the troubles with the fanbase that GS4 brought, the team decided to set GS5 a considerable time after GS4, so they can change aspects of the characters that the fans disliked (Like the fact that Apollo, in some respects, was just still a kid or Trucy being too much like Maya), without needing to explain them all too much. The reason for the change would simply be "growing up" then. Let's now assume that GS5 was set 2-3 years after GS4. This would make Apollo 24-25 years old, roughly the age Phoenix was in the first triology. Also, Trucy would be between 17 and 18, which would correspond to Maya. The 2 years inbetween could be used to explain their characters maturing. However, in order to reflect the change, they would also need to change physically to some degree. I am thinking changes along the lines of the difference between Young!Klavier and Present!Klavier, like different hairstyles and wardrobes. Trucy, for example, could redefine Troupe Gramarye with her own 'touch' in those 2 years inbetween, changing her stage outfit accordingly, getting rid of the traditional Gramarye style. Apollo could change too look less like a hotsporn rookie and more like a down to earth lawyer. Maybe with his sleeves down and the bracelet obscured by the left sleeve, or something. Not idealizing Nick any longer, he could also change his hairstyle... I dunno, I am just making this up as I go along, but, bottom line: They could change.

So, what would this mean? Well, it could mean several things:

1.) AJ2 is alive and well, unlike previously feared by many.
2.) The story might be more carefully thought out and focused on the protagonists, in order to avoid a second "Turnabout Successions" debakel.
3.) Apollo might be changes in a way that makes him likable to players who previously loathed him, without making him Out of Character. Same with Trucy.
4.) Their new designs could be revealed on the 10th anniversary court events, probably in a simmilar manner to how Ema, Mikagami, Kay and Apollo himself were revealed on previous special courts.
5.) It might be awesome enough to give me a heartattack, if this actually happens,


So, now it's time to discuss the theory! What do you think? Great or an absolute no-go? Likely or total BS? It's up for you to decide! Discuss away!

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At this point, I'm all too likely to cling to any explanation or theory that ends with the words, "...there will be a GS5." I wouldn't prefer a redesign, considering I love how they look right now and whatever problems people have with their characters probably aren't deeply invested in design. Nevertheless, if it ultimately meant the same characters, slightly different looks, and a new game...yeah, I'd take it. I honestly don't believe it's likely at all, but I'll consider anything that gives me hope.

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Interesting theory there! I sure hope that they will announce an AJ2 soon
Just one thing though: I am not one of those people who bashes Capcom or are angry at them. Not even the slightest. But sometimes their decisions just doesn't seem to make sense :P so it could be as simple as that, really.
Then again, I think there could be several other reasons why Capcom is focusing on the GK cast, rather than the AJ cast (one of them which I hope is true):

1. Because the GK series is the newest entry to the series, and therefore the one you promote the most.
2. To promote GK2 in Japan.
3. To promote GK2 everwhere! Which could mean that capcom either:
Want more people to buy GK or
Want people to care about/discover the GK-series, so that they would have a greater reason to localize GK2 (it's not too late dammit!)

But I hope there's something to your theory Neni

EDIT: The Apollo/Trucy makeover sounds... dangerous though! I hope that if this is actually something they would do, that they won't try to make Apollo all "I'm an adualt and I am cooool" or whatever.

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nah,it doesn't seem much like a marketable choice

wha'ts worse I think is they sacrificed story for jury trial propaganda and so like now it's kinda hard to fix without making fans even more angry
changing the looks of Apollo and Trucy won't make the haters hate em less than they already do, but I don't think too many actually dislike them, and if anything Kay is most def a lot more popular/liked then them two

This is a nice theory, if a bit optimistic.

I'd give anything to see more Apollo, though. So much potential, and Capcom is just dawdling when it's clear the series NEEDS to move on.

Spin-offs are fine, but we need a main series GS game.

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I doubt that. I am active or at least lurking in many, if not almost all parts of the Fandom, including Ask Blogs, Fanfic dot net, Fanart Circles, discussion circles, roleplay circles, etc, etc and, even, I have to admit, the Kink Meme. So I can tell from experience: While Apollo/Trucy haters tend to be more vocal about it (except for a few notable exceptions, like the Kay hater who wrote the hate-fic "Personality Dialysis"), the opinions are pretty much evened out. If anything, there are slightly more Apollo fans, though, the ones that make that difference are mostly Yaoi Fangirls that pair him off with Klavier. ^^;

So yeah, the hate/love is mostly equal for all three of those characters.

I agree on the "Jury Propaganda hurt the plot of AJ" part though. Greatly. I really, reall wish they hadn't done that...

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well I haven't bothered to study fan reception, but Kay sure got more fanart either Apollo or Trucy
she's got this something around her that makes her more appeal to the Japanese fanbase, I think
the huge injection of moe in case 4 of gk2 probably helped...
/but that's off topic anway

It doesn't really matter the amount of fan art each character had. There are a lot of fans (who sadly can't really do art like me ) in the AJ fandom.

In regards to the theory: I have to admit it is a possibility. Though I must say that Capcom is unpredictable. They have done stuff that are surprising and really good but there are also that are terrible....

Whatever happens... I hope it's a good thing...

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Even if I wasn't very receptive of AJ I wouldn't want a complete redesign of the characters. I mean, look what Capcom did to Dante with the new DMC. Would you want Apollo turned in to that? Shy of just saying the AJ timeline was an alternate universe and carrying on with Phoenix and Maya beyond year 3, there's no change I'd want.

I just hope whatever's next actually puts us back in the courtroom. If they made AAI a trilogy and added a third to that series I'd love to play as Edgeworth in court and actually be a prosecutor instead of a ruffly detective.

You're completely right, a redesign isn't necessarily what makes characters likeable. My problem with Apollo/Trucy is that they replaced Phoenix and Maya without a second thought.

and I'd love to play as Edgeworth in court too, persecuting actual guilty defendants while having to deal with dickish defense attorneys would be pretty awesome. Though the whole witness testimony mechanic would be pretty tricky to deal with.

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Here's my two cents, most of it from my "Everything we know about GS5" thread.

Capcom gave it a green light early on. Judging by how "Green Light" was used to describe MegaMan legends, I think it's reasonable to assume a prototype was green lit.

Due to fan reception of GS4, despite being the most profitable game in the series, the prototype was canned. Back to square one.

At this point, we get a year of concerts, and no games. Rather then work on a new AA game, Takumi and crew do Ghost Trick. AAI is also in development by another team.

Both games are released, and Nintendo soon shows off the 3DS. Takumi is approached by Level-5 soon after.

The AAI team decides that if they are going to make a sequel using the same engine, they have to do one fast while the DS still has market. AAI2 is developed and released.


That brings us up to today. My thoughts on Apollo's absence in MvsC3 means one of two things.

A: Apollo's red costume is too similar to Edgeworth and Sissle. Do they really need a third set of red uniforms? Of the red trio, only Apollo hasn't had a new game in the past year or so. So he gets cut off due to bringing less of a halo effect to Capcom's titles.
B: Apollo is a downloadable costume.


When GS5 comes, I'm quite sure that Phoenix will star.

Let me first say that I dislike Phoenix and Maya (and Maya especially). I like their designs, I like what they did for the series, but they can't bring life into a saga that's about growth and mystery. Phoenix was designed for a single game. A sequel was never in consideration until after it sold well. And, honestly, he suffers for it. Maya is useless in investigations and trials unless she plays the damsel in distress card. And the cast, my gosh. By the time GS3 came around the ratio of new characters to returning characters was so one sided, there wasn't any way to pretend to be surprised at who killed who. Apollo Justice was the best thing to happen to the series integrity. New cast, and the returning characters were very deliberately included, Judge, Payne, Ema, Hobo. Phoenix's familiar baggage was left at home in his saga.

Now, the reason I say Phoenix will star is because of Layton vs Ace Attorney, Layton's sales I think triple? At the very least double The AA series life long sales. And remember, Layton STARTED on the DS, and has remained there until just now. The AA series is MUCH older, been on MANY more platforms, and still doesn't sell as well. The new market is going to see Phoenix, not Edgeworth, and most assuredly not Apollo. And they're going to look for Phoenix next time they buy a new game. It's the best thing financially Capcom can do at this point.

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The original trilogy's growth was mainly in the characters and I think it did it extremely well. We got to see Phoenix get more experience under his belt, Maya mature a little, Edgeworth change his ways, and even Franziska become less of an ice queen.
A lot of it is subtle, but that's why it works.



Maya's "uselessness" is part of what makes her such a great character. A reoccurring theme is her desire to help Phoenix and her devotion to him. Why did she leave for Kurain after 1-4? She wanted to be a better medium to help Phoenix. Why did she tell Phoenix to get Engarde guilty? Because she refused to be used to harm his reputation and his integrity. What is the very last thing she says in the credits of T&T? She'll find some way to balance her life between being Master of Kurain and co-manager of Wright and Co. Law Office.
More than that, Maya is the only sidekick that wasn't designed as one. She's a fully supporting character. You meet her sobbing over the corpse of a person dear to both her and the main protagonist. Phoenix and Maya are thrown together, forced to make the best of it, and flourish as co-characters because of it. They have a deeply rooted connection that no other protagonist/sidekick pairings share. She doesn't have to be "useful" because she's his friend. They'll be together through thick and through thin and besides all that they have a great comedic chemistry. Ema, Trucy and Kay were all designed to be "Not-Maya" and it shows. I don't dislike them, mind you, but they're all imitations of the original.



I really missed that cast in AJ. Almost all of the new characters were annoying or forgettable or both. If I ever see Wocky Kitaki or Spark Brushel again it will be too soon. Also, what's the point of Klavier again? All of Phoenix's rivals had some reason to face off against him. Klavier has no reason to be Apollo's rival. He could be replaced with Winston Payne and the game would play out the same way.

I'm not opposed to new characters to keep the mysteries mysterious but to completely abandon the established characters is just a bad move. Ruining those characters like what they did with Phoenix is an even worse move. I'm all for a middle ground between fresh and comfortable but AJ went too far past it for my tastes.

A little growth I'll admit is good. But, by GS3 the growth I felt was smelling of decay. We're thrown a second Prosecutor with some vendetta against Phoenix. This time for not stopping a murder he had no part in. (Dude what's in that coffee you're drinking Godot?) Case 2, as always has some Kurain village plot at the base (Never mind that beyond criminal and defendant, since they're 'generally' given to new characters because they need to be, the only 'new' non-mandatory character was Desire Delite. Big mystery there.) Then in the final case, Edgeworth and Franny are dragged in, not because they're relevant to the case's plot, but for fan service.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed GS3, but it left me a bitter after taste and hungry for 'something' different.



My beef with Maya is that she doesn't help with solving a case. Her 'power' is only good for summoning Mia, who in her own ways is also useless. She's not smart, she doesn't think ahead, and has the attention span of a goldfish. In fact, the 'only' way for her to have any important impact on the plot, is if she's victimized. I'm honestly upset because they have the potential for so much more, and that's all they can do with her. Her loyalty is endearing, I'll grant you that much. But she's a one trick pony at that.



Think of it this way. When Croik had the poll on CR about what was your first AA game, the vast majority said GS4. GS4 being the most recent title out at the time. New fans aren't going to know or care who Maya is. It has to be re-established EVERY SINGLE TIME. Thus Case 1 is always a tutorial, case 2 is always about mediums. It's not until case 3 that the game can stretch, and by then it's almost over.

As for GS4's cast, to each their own. Wocky was supposed to be a hot headed mafia kid, and he was that. Brushel brushed me the wrong way as well. I will grant you that Klavier in particular was an under-welming prosecutor. I'd rate him behind Payne, but above Godot.

But Phoenix series had his share of terrible cast members. Remember GS2-3? Jean Armstrong? Iris? The Larry Butz/Wendy Oldbag team up in GK1-5?

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This discussion raises the question: Why include GK character designs either, given that the series is apparently sufficiently dead in the water for the second game to not merit localization?

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Didn't Sven actually make the ominous comment that "They aren't going to localize that game because they are busy with the main series", which could mean there is something else in the works aside from Layton VS AA? Something the American crew is already translating while it's still in developement? Just my idea.


As for "Phoenix will be brought back for GS5", Wooster, I know we've been over that, but I really, really WANT to doubt that even Capcom would be that cheap... though, what they did to DMC makes me doubt, sadly... STILL! I want to believe AA won't share that fate!

Phoenix has been sucked dry in every imaginable way, and Maya... There is NO WAY to include her after T&T without ignoring the ending in its entirety. She was supposed to grow up, take responsibility and finally get her behind to Kurain in order to do her actual JOB. If they retconned this, this would be so cheap, it would make me claw my hands into my 3DS screen and scream.

As for new fans that might want more Nick: How about finally getting rid of the butugly sprites from GS1 and GS2 (Poor Maya, what a great character you are, too bad your face looks deformed on half your sprites...) and rerelease remastered remakes of the games? Maybe with the infamous "When did Edgeworth chose death?" plothole removed? And several other goofs finally solved? Maybe 1-2 additional, new cases per game, in order to proove that Nick did NOT, like, only have the handful of on-screen cases before he was disbarred? Wouldn't that make a whole lot more sense?

In my opinion, the cast of AJ was far from forgettable, except for some of the side characters and, really, so was the cast of AA1. And AAI1. I don't know why people are so keen of stating their beef with Brushel and Wocky when Oldbag and Penny were more annoying/forgettable and same goes for Lance Amano and Rhoda Teneiro. I am not even talking about GK2, because I hate the entire cast for cases 1 and 2 in that game and only case 3 was like the holy grail of "FINALLY SOME INTERESTING CAST AND PLOT!" to me.

Maybe I am just a wideeyed idealist, but by now I exspect Capcom to do the unexpected, and I hope that said "unexspected" is bring Apollo and Trucy back in GS5, a game finally focused on THEM and finally developing THEM and finally relegating Nick to either background Mia-awesome or retirement. He deseverves the peace and respect, guys! Stop bugging him!

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Hmm, I don't know.

But I always did think a timeskip was a good option to write a 'less controversial' AJ2. And it gives them more creative etc. potential in terms of story and characterisation options.



Please show me the interview. Not disputing its existence, just I'd want to read it.



What, give Phoenix a similar reboot 'makeover'? That would be... 'interesting' Imagine....



I assume the GK series wasn't considered dead in the water in JP, only here for some reason. I don't know about sales figures, but there still seems to be plenty of NEW GK merchandise in the Capcom JP store, not to mention lots of prominent Edgeworth in their promos.




Yeah, well, I think they'd be hard pressed to write yet another Phoenix Wright game in anything like the style of GS1-3. They'd definitely have to do something different (and I think they know it, which is why we have all these GK games and PL vs PW games). Arguably, Phoenix has already been dragged out again for one game too many... I don't agree GS3 was bad but it had kind of reached the limit of that exact paradigm. I don't agree on the main cases but I think the filler in GS3 was, relatively speaking, poor. They are just not as fun to replay. A Mia game gets suggested by various people but I think they'd be pushing it with that too, it's a bit unnecessary. I'd die to see Sidekick 22yo Legal Aide Phoenix but, well, they had enough trouble writing a backstory for Mia in game 3, and she is a bit limited in what they can write further.

One reason I don't think 'the 10th anniversary project' is 'AJ2' is that the '10th anniversary' is a celebration of the iconic game PW1, not AJ or even the franchise. This isn't to say they 'won't one day make a GS5 which might be AJ2' but I wouldn't get all anticipatory. Last time the fandom thought GS5 was being announced (since Capcom hyped it up) it turned out to be just a concert or musical or whatever, Croik was so irritated at this misleading spin she made that 'We Want Merchandise' petition.

It could all just be yet another RErelease with bonus case/s, actually. (supporting arguments: They've done it before. Easier and cheaper. Monetise 3DS platform. Tie in with movie etc.)

If they did do that, I expect Apollo would at least cameo. Maybe a younger Apollo? That, by the way, could give character development like 'why he became a lawyer', though it does smack of the 'Feenie' thing, doesn't it? I don't know if the rabid AJ fans would find this acceptable. I'm not myself really a fan of 1-5.

BTW I guess 'young Apollo' is a 'character redesign' as the thread 'theory' suggests.

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I guess I'm one of the few ones who don't think there will be a GS5 with Apollo after all.

Your theory is plausible, however it would be extremely difficult for anyone to pick up from where GS4 left off, especially after the introduction of the Mason System. Because the system is based on the jurists' opinions, there can't really be a definite place to stop. I can't imagine how they'll pull it off. Just, Apollo shoving evidence until the jurists are done making a verdict? It's kind of a dead end.
Most of the cases in AA are actually difficult just because of the lack of evidence. So the difficulty of the new cases would probably drop due to the existence of the jurist.

Plus, there are more than one of them (jurists) so it would be really weird to have unanimous verdicts all the time. Perhaps they could do a scoring, and see whether the player can convince all of the jurists, but in my opinion it'll just be really awkward, because this game is more based on content. So I feel that any GS games made would probably fall before Apollo's existence. I'm sorry. I would really like a game too.

I keep saying this, but there is a valid way around the jurist system. In the GS world, there are two types of trials. The three day guilty until proven innocent, and more drawn out innocent until proven guilty. In the first game, Phoenix monologues that the 3 day trial was put in place due to the excessive crime, and as a way to speed the trial system up. If you can be proven innocent in 3 days, there's no reason to have the full trial. This full trial is the one the Judge alludes to each time you get a game over.

Presumably, to keep the 3 day trials short, they can be done without the jurist system. And for the major trials the Jury system can be put in place.

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This is a very interesting theory. However, this situation could go in several directions- Either GS5 with Apollo, GS5 without Apollo, GS5 with Phoenix or maybe something completely different, we don't know for sure yet.

I do think that they should continue the AJ storyline, because they left us with giant holes of plot with the previous one. I would love to see them answer the questions they opened up (Black psyche locks, Apollo, Trucy and Thalassa being related, if Phoenix ever becomes an attorney again).

I also agree that the jurist system propaganda hurt the game a lot, since that was the main focus and not on Apollo himself.

Like what dancingpoppies said, the games could possibly get easier if they decide to keep the jury for the next game. If they do decide to keep it, they should have it to where it isn't too easy to convince the jury. In fact, maybe this could lead to alternate results for the case if you influence the jury in different ways every time you play.

The worst thing that could happen here is that they completely wipe Apollo off the map, but somehow, I think that they maybe, JUST MAYBE, have something planned for him. Let's just wait and see ;)

That would be fun, but then how are they going to explain Polly and Nick not knowing each other at first in AJ? (Although I suppose they could stick young Polly in a GK game...)



I also still don't get the big fuss over the jurist system. Instead of Udgey saying the case is clear to him, he can say it's clear to the jurists. Ta dah, jurist system. There's no reason it has to affect gameplay. (Just make it so that the jurists aren't convinced until you 100% prove the other person is guilty, just like it's been up until now in every other case.)

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If I recall correctly, I think Phoenix met Apollo when he was visiting Kristoph's office.

Going back to taking AAI3 in to court, I'd like to see a case where Edgeworth squares off against Kristoph. Gavin, of course, would have a newbie Apollo learning the ropes as co-council.

Hope not.

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From the way Polly and Nick interacted, and the way Polly talked/thought about Nick, it seemed that 4-1 (or the day or so before it) was the first time Polly and Nick had met. I think that kind of retcon would just be >_>

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I just remember Phoenix mentioned he had seen Apollo's bracelet to "Shadi Smith" which was before the first trial. Whether the two of them actually met or not is unclear but Phoenix had at least seen him.

You get what I mean >_>

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Whoah, thread exploded! *didn't expect that*

Anyway:

*)Young Apollo Cameo: YES, PLEASE. If I get just that as a reaffirmation that Apollo still exists, I'd dance in joy for days!! I especially would love to see more of Apollo's and Kristoph's Mentor-Student relationship.

*)Jurist System: There's some ways to make it work, actually. Some that don't change the gameplay at all, some that just, like previously mentioned, say that not all trials have it, and others that simply replace the penalty bar with Juror-approval and slightly change how the penalty system works this way. (In other words: HUGE penalties, but refills for certain very good choices. That would add something new to the games, I think...)

*)Apollo first meeting Nick: Well, what if Nick had seen Apollo before while visiting Kristoph, but Apollo had no idea it was Nick? After all, NONE of us would have known, hadn't they spelt out his name to us during the trial. <_<
Given Apollo probably only knew Nick from newspaper photographs before actually meeting him... The Beanie and stubble most likely threw him off.

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I was always of the opinion that Apollo didn't meet Phoenix until the first day of the trial. It's been a while since I played it mind you.

He was pretty much a Phoenix fanboy. If you're that much of a fan of someone you wouldn't be thrown off by stubble and a hat.

Also, if he went to Kristoph's office while Apollo was there, Kristoph surely would have introduced them, right? You don't bring a stranger into your office and not introduce them to nearby colleagues, that's kind of rude.

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I am partial about redesign. On one hand, that would be like admitting that AJ is not good enough. This is quite sad, because I like AJ as it is, and I do not think it is good to make changes where it is not necessary.

But in the other hand, it could be good; it could attract new fans and maybe old fans. Maybe people specifically those who do not like him will give him second chance. And maybe Apollo will get his own trilogy. We would get new characters, new cases, new stories instead of rehashing old ones. Really, Phoenix and Edgeworth are wearing thin on my list.

Some part of me hope that Capcom will make a gigantic comeback for Apollo, that is why they have been ignoring him lately. But I guess that is too much of a blind hope.

All in all, it is Capcom who decides. I just hope they think twice if they really want to make a redesign.

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Personally? I don't really believe in the theory. I just think that Capcom doesn't like AJ. In fact, I'm pretty sure that the only reason Apollo was even on that 10th anniversery pic was because they had to put in every AA character ever. If it was up to Capcom, I'm positive that Apollo and the rest of the AJ cast wouldn't be in the pic. Besides, on the 10th anniversery poster, only Phoenix and Edgeworth were on it, despite Apollo supposedly being the new main character.

And besides, they only made 1 or 2 references to AJ in AAI, compared to the hundreds of references to the PW trilogy. (Not sure about AAI2, though).

Depsite that, there is still no real definitve proof that AJ is regarded by Capcom as being canon.

Besides, we don't know if Capcom really isn't going to give Phoenix any AJ alternate costumes in UMvC3. They could be added as DLC if enough fans demanded it. To say that there won't be any AJ cosutmes in UMvC3 is jumping the gun a bit.

While I do really want an AJ2, it seems unlikely that Capcom will follow this theory. In fact, I'm so desperate for an AJ reference, that if the next AA game turns out to be an AAI3, I hope they include young Apollo or Kristoph. I just need some sign from Capcom showing that they haven't forgotten AJ. But making them older is, in my opinion, not the way to make an AJ2.

Although I do wonder what an older Apollo and Trucy will act like, though.

Last edited by Cronos on Sat Oct 29, 2011 3:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

My point about Young!Polly appearing in a Nick-era case is that if Nick we controlled Nick, and Polly was a witness and an important part of the case and everything, the way Nick and Polly interacted at the beginning of 4-1 would've been much different, so retconning Polly into one of Nick's cases would just be silly >_> It would be creating history where we pretty much know there's none. (A cameo, maybe, but a full-blown witness/suspect/whatever role is too much. But if he's in an Edgey case, then they can do whatever they want with him)

@Cronos: I think there were more PW references in AAI than AJ just because PW are easier to do, since there are more games/cases and they've already happened by the time AAI's rolled around.

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I'm just glad there were any references to AJ at all in AAI. The fact that the game made any sort of reference to anything from AJ is the only thing still convincing me that AJ is canon.And, Like I said, I haven't played AAI2, so I cant really talk about that game and its references.

Also, if Phoenix was to meet Apollo prior to AJ as a witness, I think that would break canon, so that idea is no good. But if Apollo appeared in an case in a possible AAI3, that would be one way of introducing an AJ character without breaking canon.

I thought it's established that it's canon, what with Ema and the fingerprinting powder in it.

That said, I prefer AJ2 over GK3. Even though GK is all the craze nowadays (in AA fandom anyway), it does nothing except playing around the original series. It is just a spin-off, and it is going to end. If they do make another one, they'll eventually have to give a nod to AJ, because there's no way they can make another GK without touching AJ timeline (except if they want to go back before the first game or completely de-attach it from the main series, but I highly doubt that).

Went off tangent there, sorry.

I think redesign is the last thing they could do to bring AJ back into the spotlight if they care about AJ at all. I hope if they do make it, they won't change too much. And, if anything, I don't want them to change Apollo, I like his design.

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I think what was being tried to say, was that since GS4's release, there's been very little evidence that they won't retrocon GS4. Or at least, they're keeping that option open to themselves. There've been off screen cameos of the Gaviner's and Grammayers. But the AAI timeline was 'very' deliberate in not running into when Phoenix gets disbarred. And actually, at the rate AAI's timeline was going, it'd be AAI4 before they'd run into the aforementioned event.

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Let me be a little more clear. What I mean to say was that there is no definitive proof that Capcom still considers AJ as being canon. For the last few years, all we've been getting is Phoenix and Edegworth merchandize. When was the last time you saw Apollo merchandize begin sold somewhere?

With the way the fanbase reacted to AJ, and how half of the fanbase hated it, is not entirely impossible that Capcom will recon AJ and make sure it never happened or that it did happen, but differently.

I liked AJ. I liked Apollo, Trucy, Kristoph (Not Klavier, though ). I don't want to see Capcom giving in to the crazy Phoenix fanatics and make AJ non-canon just because it didn't have Phoenix as a lawyer. I agree that the game had some plot-holes and a very forced plot, but a sequel can fix all of that.

Which is why I hope the next game is AJ2, because Apollo needs more love.

Defending T&T, my favorite game.



And helping Dahlia with the necklace. This is mentioned briefly. Besides, he can't see "Red" on "White." Plus, he's focusing on the idea of blaming Phoenix and being better than Phoenix to distract himself from the fact that he also irrationally blames himself. Plus, he has the same problem Dahlia had: it's hard to get revenge on people who are dead, so if them being dead isn't enough for you, you have to focus on people who are alive. I agree that blaming the guy who actually caught the killer is dumb, but blaming the man who was closest to her when she died sort of fits with his chauvinism.



Sometime in between starting Trials and Tribulations and starting case 5 of it, I read on TVtropes that the last case "wraps up the trilogy quite nicely." I thought to myself, "well, to do that, it would have to include every major character, and every major unresolved plot thread. So, it would have to have Phoenix, and Maya, and Edgeworth, and probably Pearl, and probably Franziska, and of course they'll have Gumshoe. I think Larry's slightly more important than Maggey, and we haven't seen him much after his fairly big role in the first game, so they could probably have him but not her. They would need to resolve the open question of what happened to Misty Fey. They would also need to address how . In order to wrap up Trials and Tribulations, it would have to involve Dahlia and Godot. It would probably involve Mia and Kurain/spirit channeling as well." And guess what? We got a case that involved all those things, plus new characters!

While they definitely constructed the case in ways that kinda shoehorned all those characters in, they came up with actual logical explanations for it that fit with the case, as opposed to



Almost over? With the exception of case 3-4 being short (and case 3-3 being about the same length as 3-2 and 4-3 about the same length as 4-2 and I-4 being shorter than I-3), every case within a game is always longer than the one before it. With four or five cases, with the second case like three times as long as the first and subsequent cases being 1 and 1/2 times as long as the one before them, it's still pretty early after the second case.



Huh? I thought that case 3-2 was quite possibly the best case in the series that wasn't a "final case" (cases 1-4, 1-5, 2-4, 3-5, 4-4, and I-5), and the favorite case poll supports this. As for case 3-3, I'm a little confused at why they would show you who did it at the beginning for a case that late in the game (leaving case 5 the only one where it really takes a long time to figure out who did it), but it was a fun and entertaining little case.

@Tifforo

The only reason Dalilah was even relevant to Godot's vendetta was because he orchestrated the entire last case.



For your second point, I'm not upset that Franny and Edgeworth were in the case, Franny as an investigative aid was the best thing ever. I'm upset because they just showed up. Edgeworth had nothing at stake or real ties to the final case, and neither did Franny. They were used effectively once they were in, but they had no reason to be 'in' in the first place. (Though I was upset Adrian was in GS3, they undid everything that made her awesome in 2.) Lotta Hart, I think is much better handled, when she needs something, she shows up. It's her wants that powers her appearances and lies. When there's nothing of note, she doesn't show up or even get mentioned.

What I mean by the game's almost over is that it takes until case 3 to introduce new concepts and settings and what not. This is independent of the length of the cases themselves.

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Fact: Apollo Justice is a good Ace Attorney game wrapped in a couple of very, very big mistakes.
Fact: Phoenix is the unmistakeable face of the Ace Attorney series, and Capcom realizes this.
Fact: Part of the AA fanbase wants Phoenix to star in more games, and the other part wants Apollo to have more games of his own.
Opinion: Ace Attorney, or at least Phoenix's popularity is in increase, and Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3, and Layton vs. Ace Attorney after that, will help dramatically, or at least significatively increase it.
Opinion: Capcom is not willing to make another 100% Apollo-centric game at all, but after UMvC3 and specially after PLvsAA, they will most certainly be willing to make a new Phoenix-centric Ace Attorney game.

Problem: Some fans want Phoenix, but others don't and want Apollo instead. Yet Phoenix has much more chances of getting a new game of his own, while Apollo's are slim. A potential Gyakuten Saiban 5 would have the duty to introduce the series to the 3DS, meaning whoever stars it, due to this and the long-standing legend of the simple mention of the name "Gyakuten Saiban 5", needs to do an excellent job, for it'll be the most meaningful game in the series. A new Apollo game could help freshen up the series with a quality entry, and he has story to explore, or it could be a new mistake that would seal Apollo's grave, and could dramatically end Gyakuten Saiban if managed very poorly; while a new Phoenix game could represent a cheap bastardization of Phoenix's image, and as such the AA series', giving the AA series its first truly bad game, or it could really be a great new game that justifies Phoenix's appearance and manages to breath new life into the series, even with its original protagonist.

Problem: AA won't be able to stand a new trilogy. It's been 4 GS games and 2 GK games. I think it can stand 1 more GK game and 1 more GS game.

Ideal solution: Series-ending GS game made for 3DS that features Phoenix, features Apollo, justifies both of their appearances and reivindicates both fo them (Phoenix for being turned into a hobo, Apollo for having just one game), while tying all possible loose ends (mostly Apollo's, Phoenix has no meaningful ones), and, to top it all off, bears the legendary name of Gyakuten Saiban 5.

Name of this glorious solution: Remnants of the Past

Seriously guys, Capcom should just steal the concept from Papermario and make a proper, 3DS-made, Takumi-scripted, 100% loose end-tying finale to the series with it. I don't think Papermario would mind, in fact, he would be ecstasic. He should at least, I sure know I would.

It's just too perfect: a game starring Phoenix AND Apollo, as equals, in a setting that reivindicates one of AA4's mistakes, the Mason System, and uses it to make a time-shifting collaboration between the two possible, and, best of all, it could make sense. A concept that has tons of room for new characters and even more for perfectly justified fanservice, which, after AAI, seems to be the way Capcom wants to go. Besides, Takumi would be inspired after PLvsAA, but not for long, so just one more game, specially a series-ender, he can pull that off. And then he can go on unleashing his creativity into whatever he pleases, a process that has paid off very, very well with Ghost Trick. As great as more new IPs from Takumi could be, just picture a GT game made on 3DS hardware, please!

God, I wish the idea had come to Takumi's head instead of Papermario's, or that he or one of us had a way of showing this to Takumi and convincing him that it is a completely viable option. I'm just so in love with the entire concept of Remnants as a Saiban ending... I guess it can't be helped :T

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*Nenilein steps in to see how much her thread has derailed and realizes that she is probably the only person who likes the idea of a redesign. Maybe it's because she grew up with Magical girl Shows where the Protagonists would change attire every season. She shrugs, sits down and reads all the different theories regarding "Apollo or not Apollo", even though this wasn't exactly the original purpose of the thread. She enjoys the speculation.*

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Re; 'new 1-5 style case'
Well, I did have in mind the existing Apollo-Phoenix haven't met 'plothole' which is why I said 'cameo' rather than 'Phoenix's sidekick' or whatever. I envisage a 1-5 type 'new case' being like 3-5 where you play as Edgeworth for part of the case in a sort of 'GK' segement' and I guess the Apollo part could happen then. (Or else Apollo's 'new look' is so new Phoenix dioesn't recongise him :P) I keep speculating they should and probably one day will have a game (case) with hybrid gameplay from GS and GK. For example GK's investigation phase mechanic is arguably better (an upgrade) from old GS but, no idea about GK2 improvements but GK1's replacement for court scenes were more boring. So they can just combine the strengths of both games (not to mention both characters/casts if they want)



'Favourite cases' are very subjective. Also the 'polls' here (or anywhere) are hardly a 'scientific' measurement of fandom consensus. Of course repeatedly such polls or topics show a few cases score highly (1-4, 3-5, 2-4, 1-5 is either loved or hated, a few people like 4-4 while some think it's the worst case ever, people generally dislike 4-3 and 2-3) but apart from that I don't see much trend of meaning.

I don't think that 3-2 and 3-3 were 'bad' but they were sort of running out of ideas.

Like 3-2. Even as a huge fan generally of the whole Kurain sub/plot of the series, the connection here seemed a bit tenuous and forced (that urn YET AGAIN?). There's nothing wrong with 3-3, but it's not the type of masterpiece you marvel at. And yeah, dragging back old minor characters for new 'plot' (like Adrian Andrews, Maggey and, well, Larry) is great for a few games but you can reach a limit. Notice Larry wasn't in game 2 but they returned him in game 3? And I am a Larry fan (which means I'm tasteless enough to love all his scenes including GK) but I can see the problem generally of keeping on returning the same old minor cast. Adrian was the type of char which did deserve a return plot of necessary character development/closure but the same can't really be said of many others (Maggey's just being 'accident prone' like in 2-1, nothing new.)

I enjoyed the cases the first time but I don't feel they have much replay value. And my reasoning is that I've tried replaying them and it's pretty boring, though I like replaying the filler in games 1 and 2. I don't pretend this isn't my opinion as people have different reasons for liking case/s (there was some variation in the case itself being not a murder to start with and court procedures etc.) but I do think they were getting to the point of 'running out of ideas' in certain measures.

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I'm guessing they will finish GK3 before they give us AJ2/GK5...
Well... what I wanted was to have GK3 so it could maybe, MAYBE tie into the AJ series, leading up to the next game?
We could see young Apollo, young Kristoph, etc.
Some part of me doubts this will happen but... I still wish it will!