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Right, let's agree to differ then.

So, about Athena, does the player get to play from her PoV anytime in the last case? Because it feels pretty unnecessary to bring in a whole new main character/lawyer just to let her be playable in one case.

I'm not through with case 5 and the big things haven't gone down yet, but so far her character is better handled than I expected. Maybe it'll change, but so far I haven't seen that much praise, and even though she's kind of forced into the main character gallery, it went smoother than I thought. I like her and Apollo's relationship; a little sibling-like, a little freshman-sophomore (which makes sense), friendly but not super-close. Even though I feel a bit like she wants to reach out and give more to Apollo than she gets back, for example, I don't think he'd react the way she did if she was the one leaving the office. Not that it's anyone's fault. Her relationship with Phoenix is a little more classical Lawyer-teenage assistant. As I said before I like her more as a narrator than as the assistant, she's quite fun and it's kind of refreshing with an un-sarcastic narrator. Though I tend to feel like she's more a bunch of traits stapled on each other rather than a consistent character. And yeah, most of them are to her advantage. She's strong, athletic, cheerful, talks a bunch of languages etc. Even the fact that she can eat lots of food without gaining weight is presented as such. But wait - her first appearance presented her as clumsy. All well then. Therefore I think it's fot the better for her character that she's a bit immature, and that she actually isn't that great of a lawyer. Fortunately she's got not one but two helpful mentors, instead of a mysterious ex-lawyer/a repetitive ex-person. And even though her inablity to perform in court and requiring help from others occurring in both her cases bugs me a bit, I like that beside her let's get shit done-personality she's still affected by her past. It's not very practical, but an occasionally unstable lawyer makes for an interesting story.

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Short Answer: Kind of.

Long answer:

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I was trying to like Athena, mainly because of Simon. I love Blackquill's character, and for me they're strongly connected, so it's really hard to just hate her.

But she's too artificial, she's more like a prop than truly fleshed out character who I'd like to support or identify with.

Certainly, she'd be more believable if she was 23 - then major in law and psychology is possible, some basic martial arts, being pretty and brave. I still would have a hard time with accepting her fluency in at least four foreign languages, when I struggle to learn just two (I know she's more spouting random phrases, and in Japanese version it's only English, but general impression of her capability remains).

But the fact is she's 18. That's ridiculous.
I'm doing a chronological replay of DD now, and after case 2 and DLC the only fault of Athena which is mentioned by characters is being competitive. And it is thrown with frequency of magic panties/theft in context of Trucy/Kay.

For me she's more acceptable as an adorable android, with fast emotional shifts, rich database of law/psychology/languages and her constant prattling about competitions. And she has a mood matrix, so she's truly a useful tool. But a tool, not a character.

Maybe bad lawyering is the only thing that saves her. That makes her a person who easily acquires information, passes tests with high scores etc. but cannot apply her knowledge to real life.

And her sensitive hearing is not as impossible as it looks like [an analysis I've found - http://aeonfrodo.tumblr.com/post/668526 ... n-analysis].

Interesting post.

Still lots of problems.

Sensitive hearing--okay. The problem here is that the sensitive hearing discussed in that post is about quantity. The author (and other people with sensitive hearing) can hear really soft sounds. However, Athena's power is about quality. She can hear the emotions in people's voices. Even if the guy who wrote that post can hear someone from super-far away, I doubt he can magically know what emotion they're feeling, no matter what distance he is from them.

The headphone thing (since the author of that post brought it up) is still kinda weird and silly. The biggest issue is the difference between "nullifying" and "desensitizing"; Athena's headphones did the former, not the latter. And there's still the fact that Athena often missed school and was a social recluse... and yet still became a super-genius social butterfly a few years later.

Finally, Widget is never addressed, and his mechanics and logistics are another big factor in the problems with Athena's power.


A pretty interesting read, but all of my complaints and problems with Athena's power still stand.

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Thanks for posting that link, it was very interesting.

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Widget is just like Moe's mouth on the hat or lobster from nowhere. You really have a problem that this little thing shows her emotions? Well, too bad, it's just, it's just comical factor applied in characterization

Also, sensing emotion through the contact with the skin is something real-life, modern machines can do.

Truth to be told, I just don't get you. In our realistic world, we have 15 years old revolutionizing cancer diagnosis, 18 years old passing a bar exam. And much more. Yes, all that in real life. And she is so unrealistic, because she is a lawyer and a psychologist? With an inborn talent to do the latter and motivation to do the former?

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Yeah...in real life we have an 18 year old Lawyer...not an 18 year old lawyer and psychologist, who accomplished everything in only....about 7 years. Stick on Superpowers, random language and self-defence skills from nowhere and give her mad swag that's never explained and yeah...she's a bit too much.

Also we've discussed Widget at length, it's non-negotiable it's a ridiculous object, sensing emotions through the skin is one thing. Verbalising actual thoughts with context and concrete dialogue and being officially described (by the only living character who has any knowledge of it) as "reading my mind" is a whole other matter.

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...What. Widget is a game mechanic and affects the plot; it is NOT a mere visual gag like Moe's hat, or Adrian's glasses, or anything else you want to bring up.


Pretty much what Pierre said. Widget goes waaaay beyond sensing emotions through the skin. And Athena did much more than just pass the bar exam. (Also from the article you linked a while back, it sounded like the 18 year whole who passed the bar exam IRL didn't actually even become a lawyer.) Also, "motivation" is nice, but that doesn't mean you can just ignore logistics.


You forgot to mention how she went from a recluse to a pretty well-liked social butterfly.

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I could buy that even, put that down to her repressing everything from her childhood due to....well we all know why.


Of course everything is simpler and makes sense....if Athena was an Android.

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That's true. And that's why it's so sad.

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Uh... Okay. I guess the problem is with you not really believing that someone can learn several languages, psychology, law and some self-defense in seven years. I think I should note that maybe one or two are on somewhat advanced level, while the rest seems to be at the pretty basic level. And yes, she is not really an expert in law, just before you claim that. She is new at that and it can be seen.

You also appear to not consider seven years a long time. I'm not sure, but when I look at myself now and myself seven years ago, I see a massive difference. And I think many other people too.

I could keep giving real-life examples of people achieving a lot in a short period of time or in the young age, but to be honest, I am not even sure it has a point anymore.

Edit: She didn't? I saw her titled as an "18 years old becoming the youngest lawyer in the UK" or something like that. But, passing bar exam is equal to getting knowledge and qualifications, am I not right? Even if you are right, it doesn't change my point, as she did get necessary skills and knowledge.

Hmm. Now, speaking things out loud is a tricky part, when talking about Widget. But, we have 2026 in Ace Attorney. It might be unfitting for 2013, but not for a plot taking place 13 years in the future, unless you are going to deny that there is technological progress in Ace Attorney world.

Also, her problems in social life were most likely caused by sensitiveness of her hearing, which was partially cured later.

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*Sigh* I shouldn't have come back here, nothing is ever resolved since we have very different individual perceptions on what is "ok".



I have more problems with, as BP said, the logistics...the basic time restraints of a course and the requirements to get on a course. Seven years is a long time, but education TAKES a long time. I could buy her doing self-defence in her spare time as a hobby since she seems to be a bit of a fitness buff. The languages is a bit out of nowhere but whatever, those are minor things. The problems come from her psychology and law education for me.

People have argued before that it's never indicated how 'professional' her quality of education in Psychology is but I don't buy it. If we question every informed attributes' integrity we wouldn't get anywhere. I don't need to see Gumshoes' badge to know he's a qualified and trained detective, and he's shown to be relatively INCOMPETENT in his field unlike Athena.

Let's just take it in basics. So Athena...a relatively unimpressive schoolchild, poor attendance, no relations in the field to grease the works (ala Franziska). Is shipped off to Europe following her terrifying ordeal. She's probably a traumatic wreck and undergoing counselling to help her cope with the loss of her mother and the trauma she's endured. No qualifications, no educational prowess beyond Primary School Level (or First school or whatever age 5-12 roughly is in anyone's given educational system).

Why would any University, Dedicated to Law or otherwise, hell dedicated to Law AND Psychology, take on such a random young girl? I can see the people reviewing her application now. "Well...she's been through a lot of trouble lately...and she's so young, I'm not sure she'd be able to cope with the stress of the workload...maybe in a few years".

That's only considering her personal situation, not even taking into account her lack of schooling or influence in the field. Do I need to say more with what's wrong here? She's an impossibility, even by Ace Attorney standards. People often bring up Franny and Klavier. At least the other "prodigy's" had some connection to the field beforehand, were born in the magic land of turbo-education and didn't dual-major in their education. Athena has too much power and plotlight in this case. I like some of her character sure I just don't buy her crazy resumé.



I don't buy it, there's NOTHING like Widget in AA universe so far that hasn't been created by Metis Cykes (I understand her robots have some similar technology). Everyone is surprised by Widget implying it's not widely available tech. Nothing else has really ever shown mind-reading technology used anywhere and despite being 13-years in the future the tech level is exactly the same. No plasma-powered Space Engines, no hover-cars, no hover-boards, no memory-altering megacorps.

Widget is on a Tech-level that should have space colonisation. I'm not denying there should be no technological progress but....there hasn't been.

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No. Learning law and psychology is perfectly fine. Undergraduate college takes 4 years; you can major in psychology. Law school then takes 3. Add them together and you have knowledge of psychology and law in 7 years. (...That doesn't take into account the months/years it takes for the paperwork of the bar to be dealt with, but oh well.)

The problem is when you learn it in 7 years, starting at 11 years old. What I described above is fine for an 18+ year old high school graduate, whose brain is fairly developed and has basic knowledge in many fields from a completely secondary school education. However, doing that when you're 11-18 years old, when you haven't had good attendance in school thus far, when you've generally been a mental wreck, and when you just went through an extremely traumatic experience, is not realistic or believable, even by AA standards.

If a 21 year-old decides he wants to become a psychological lawyer, he can have it done within seven years.

If an 11 year-old decides she wants to become a psychological lawyer... that's not going to happen for a while.


IIRC, the article mentioned she was going to continue studying something at some place. Meaning, not becoming a lawyer (quite yet). Still, I think there is a distinction between passing the bar exam and being an actual lawyer in court, so if you're going to say that there is a young lawyer IRL, let's be specific, shall we?~
(Also: Did that "lawyer" in the article have, in addition to the passing of the bar exam, working knowledge of psychology and several foreign languages?)


Similar to what Pierre said. If they want to say "This is the future, there is mind-reading technology," there's no problem with that in itself. The problem is in the implications. Mind-reading is a world-changing massively revolutionary technology. If this technology exists, why isn't it being used ANYWHERE except in a random gizmo that belongs to a random Japanese teenager? (If we can read peoples' minds, why are there trials?!)

Also, Widget is a portable remote mind-reading device. If mind-reading technology were developed, I find it extremely hard to believe that larger models and versions that require physical contact with the person weren't developed first. And, if said models were developed... they should have revolutionized and changed the world!!

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I am not really smart nor too keen on observation. With that, I overall enjoyed Athena's character. Specialy for her relationship with Apollo and that she is very relatable to Phoenix (I know that someone said recycled plot..but Ace Attorney was always about intertwined fate and how one man uses the truth to set them all free from darkness of the past)

Truth be told I am kind of uhh..jammed up on her geniusness. Not that repulsed though..I wonder if Court records watches anime cause these kind of "fighter girl" or "abit overpowered came from foreign country" character are pretty typical in anime(Makise Kurisu from steins gate anyone? or usui from that maid anime...that I don't really like). Heck I kind of hate how Ace Attorney has that element of sparkly anime now.

A Young Lawyer? okay...A young Lawyer who specializes in psychology? okay...a young lawyer who specializes in psychology and is also athletic ? ehhhhh (..also I hate you )

I wish they had made her a bit older .. atleast 21..cause the young genius thing is loosing its edge..I mean comeon what about Edgeworth ? and Apollo too, we forget that he became a lawyer at 22! thats pretty good! Although



...now that I think about it... how hard is psychology in aa universe? assuming Simon never had any knowledge og psychology before Metis (unless they have some sort of A.P.S course in uni haha)

Ya know, seeing you guys try to compare what is clearly a parody of the legal system to real life is kind of... it leaves me questioning why.

Before 2006, a law degree wasn't required to take the national bar in Japan, but the exam was tough as heck; only 3% of all attempts per year. Then, they're supposed to become registered as a member of the National Bar Association and take a year of internship, supervised by the Legal Research and Training Institute of the Supreme Court, before actually becoming a full-fledged lawyer.

Phoenix, on the other hand, and without attending law school, passed the bar at 24 and was officially instated shortly after. He joins Mia Fey as her subordinate and a mere three months after he earned his badge, he takes his first case.

Holy crap, what the heck is this guy? He even wasted several years in college as an art major. Never mind how Edgeworth got his at 20. He's just a few years earlier, really.

By 2006, Japan's judicial system was getting a major work-over. One of the reforms was the qualifications for becoming instated. Now, though the exam has been shortened to two stages, leaving out the oral part, participants must have attended law school and completed a two- or three-year law graduate program. Those who hadn't attended school could take the exam only if they pass a preliminary one first.

Supposing by Apollo's game, such reforms were already long in place, the only way Apollo could get his badge at 22 was if he skipped law school and somehow managed to pass all the required exam stages. Wait, did this guy have some super motivation to become a lawyer in the first place? I dunno; we haven't learned enough about that yet, but maybe it's not important enough for us to know at the moment.

Not to mention, every time someone practices law overseas and comes over here, they're always geniuses somehow. (It was bad enough that this game abridged the Japanese qualifications, but it also abridged the processes overseas into something of the same caliber.)

By now, someone like Athena no longer surprises me. I AM surprised by how long this issue revolving around her "genius" has kept going.

Now, if we were arguing over how much she parallels with a genuine Mary Sue, then that's a different story. There are plenty more interpretations where that one came from, after all.

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We're literally trying to compare actual law systems to AA now? Actual Japanese ones? Firstly, I don't know why you are using the Japanese systems. In Japan, the superlawyers come from America don't they? In the West it's Europe, why should Japan's system come into play?

Also I am 22, I finished my course at university last year, I skipped no grades, did a full extent of education and like many people went straight on to university education after secondary school (or middle school, whatever). That course could have been a Law degree.

There is nothing wrong with Apollo's progression.

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Because Sligneris went "Athena being an attorney at 18 isn't unrealistic! Look, there's someone who passed the bar at 18 IRL!" I agree it's pretty silly to discuss it xP


Also, I always thought that in Japan you could major in law in undergrad, and then become a lawyer without going to law school

I also always thought the "normal" age for becoming an attorney in AA-land was 24, like Nick. I could've sworn when talking about Edgey in the first game, they say something like "He became a lawyer 4 years early, at 20."

As for Polly, while it's true that he becomes an attorney early without it ever getting explained... He only does it 2 years early, and he doesn't seem to have any other (developed (as opposed to natural)) talents. That's "really smart" category, not "unbelievable super-genius" category.

To restate my main argument against Athena yet again (albeit much more concisely xP), the problem isn't that she is an attorney at 18 in itself (although that's pretty bad), but that in addition to the fact, (1) she has a slew of other amazingly great positive traits, and (2) she's a protagonist.

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I'm taking information from the backgrounds of the development of this game, that's why.

No, the problem with Apollo's progression is that regardless of how long he attended law school, he jumped straight into the job, even if it's under the supervision of a qualified attorney. In this game's universe, the National Bar Association has been merged with that Research Institute, so practically any qualified attorney could supervise an intern. Only that, there's no need for an internship at all, so it doesn't matter anyway.

Hence why illogically skipping grades and doing whatever else on the side in educational institutions overseas is irrelevant.


;) Nah, it's no one's fault, but I just wanted to cut in before it ran off again.


I never did call him a genius, but lucky. Then again, luck seems to have a preference for some characters.


Well, the first one is overlooked easily by the fact that most of them aren't important to the sake of continuity.

Nonetheless, I have to admit that I still can't find a good counterargument against that second one. Only one case in the history of this series has ended in a guilty verdict, and another that was left hung, so we players naturally expect to win otherwise. And yet, throwing in a "special weapon" on our side is like giving us a nuke button. We didn't need it, but we have no choice but to spam it. It makes the entire drama kind of... lackluster, doesn't it?

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Wow, seriously, I thought Athena was labeled 18 to justify her personality. Think about it, would we accept a 23 years old girl acting like a child, always jumping from emotion to emotion? I doubt it. Even if Maya presented herself like that we would be all like WTH?! So I don't think you should dig super deep in the topic. Also for Apollo, maybe he skipped a few grade, like here if you're born in september/october you can go to school a year earlier, if you skip a grade with that it could explain it.

Back to the subject. I think Athena was more your typical energitic anime girl in the game. It's sad, I was expecting more (then again what was I expecting). Though it was that bad, but enough steroetyped too get on my nerve sometime. I can get the athletic stuff since for the Jap, american women are more masculine than theirs. I can get the fact that she is a lawyer since well it is Ace Attorney! I just didn't like that she was a DIPLOMED psychologist. If it was something like a side study in her free time, okay it pass, but being graduate? I don't know.


Brief, Athena equal Maya 2.0.

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What? No I know people 23 year old and older who act like Athena. It's really not that bad to be young at heart at 23.

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That's kinda a theme that's been in the back of my head throughout reading this thread and playing the game. Athena doesn't really come off as an 18 year old to me. I don't think it would've been too unreasonable to mix up the years just a little bit to make her a little older. At this point, the age of a character seems about as relevant to them as a pokedex entry. Sure at face value it seems kinda believable not really but you end up with a much different impression.

Ooh, fresh meat...

Really? I've always thought of myself as pretty young at heart. Would gaining a few years more really turn me into someone like Nick? Ew, I hope not.
What's that supposed to mean?
Yep, just like that!


Mind if I ask where "here" is?

Apollo doesn't need to skip a grade at any time. Three years of law school and a year of internship are enough - that is, if there is such a thing called an "internship period" in this universe.


Er, what? That's not basis for anything.


She never got a degree in psychology or a license to practice it anyway.


No, Ema is Maya 2.0. Athena is Kay 2.0. You can tell by their unique hairstyles.

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CONJECTURE! (The amount this comes up I'm surprised there's not a prosecutor with a specific speech bubble for this by now)

I and others are under the impression she is qualified based on how much she talks about it and her knowledge of it. It's this exact lack of information about Athena that is the only thing that holds up your argument she might not be qualified AND doubles as a legitimate complaint about her.

Like I said earlier, we can't question every informed attribute about a character, I've never seen Gumshoes' badge or graduation certificate from the Police Academy, by the same argument can I truly say he is a detective?

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Don't feel like making thousands of quoting...


1. I still think that we would (as a new character) expect more maturity if she was 23. But that's subjective. After all Larry was something.


2.Here: Canada, Quebec. I am not aware on how thing works in the real world but in the AA one Franzie was a prosecutor at 13 and Klavier at 17th so WHY NOT 18? Anything is possible in the AA universe.



3. I wrote it wrong. I mean that normally in Anime the foreign girl is always an energitic girl who stand for herself and always quotes her mother language for god know why... But since she was in the spotlight (and was an attorney too) I expected a bit more depth in a character, that she wasn't just reduced to the happy go lucky kind a girl (and I found her a bit useless at times even if I like the Mood Matrix).


4. If she never graduate, why people are making such a fuss about it. It is said she studied psychology oversea, but I can't remember all the detail.

5. I feel stupid to not realise the link about the hair...

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Don't feel bad Shao-mae, you ain't alone in your thoughts.

We've given plenty reason why Athena shouldn't have accomplished what she has by 18. Like you said you suspect a psychology degree in the works as well. Athena only had seven years and no connection to law. Franziska most certainly did, Klavier had his legendary brother, yet Athena accomplished a whole other degree in only 7 years.

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...Do we even have any progress in discussion since last 8 pages? I see none.

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Well since I Rebutted your last points you....posted this and didn't address any of them.

*shrug* Perhaps I'll try again.



I have more problems with, as BP said, the logistics...the basic time restraints of a course and the requirements to get on a course. Seven years is a long time, but education TAKES a long time. I could buy her doing self-defence in her spare time as a hobby since she seems to be a bit of a fitness buff. The languages is a bit out of nowhere but whatever, those are minor things. The problems come from her psychology and law education for me.

People have argued before that it's never indicated how 'professional' her quality of education in Psychology is but I don't buy it. If we question every informed attributes' integrity we wouldn't get anywhere. I don't need to see Gumshoes' badge to know he's a qualified and trained detective, and he's shown to be relatively INCOMPETENT in his field unlike Athena.

Let's just take it in basics. So Athena...a relatively unimpressive schoolchild, poor attendance, no relations in the field to grease the works (ala Franziska). Is shipped off to Europe following her terrifying ordeal. She's probably a traumatic wreck and undergoing counselling to help her cope with the loss of her mother and the trauma she's endured. No qualifications, no educational prowess beyond Primary School Level (or First school or whatever age 5-12 roughly is in anyone's given educational system).

Why would any University, Dedicated to Law or otherwise, hell dedicated to Law AND Psychology, take on such a random young girl? I can see the people reviewing her application now. "Well...she's been through a lot of trouble lately...and she's so young, I'm not sure she'd be able to cope with the stress of the workload...maybe in a few years".

That's only considering her personal situation, not even taking into account her lack of schooling or influence in the field. Do I need to say more with what's wrong here? She's an impossibility, even by Ace Attorney standards. People often bring up Franny and Klavier. At least the other "prodigy's" had some connection to the field beforehand, were born in the magic land of turbo-education and didn't dual-major in their education. Athena has too much power and plotlight in this case. I like some of her character sure I just don't buy her crazy resumé.




I don't buy it, there's NOTHING like Widget in AA universe so far that hasn't been created by Metis Cykes (I understand her robots have some similar technology). Everyone is surprised by Widget implying it's not widely available tech. Nothing else has really ever shown mind-reading technology used anywhere and despite being 13-years in the future the tech level is exactly the same. No plasma-powered Space Engines, no hover-cars, no hover-boards, no memory-altering megacorps.

Widget is on a Tech-level that should have space colonisation. I'm not denying there should be no technological progress but....there hasn't been.


We are bringing up points that counter yours but if you ignore them then of course nothing will progress.

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Actually, Mr. Pierre, I DO have proof! Take that!

Granted, he only thought it to himself in his head, but it is indeed in the official script. Athena certainly seems like the kind of girl who would point out that she has a license in psychology, as if to declare a triumph.

I highly doubt anyone would really pay her any mind, though.


I do. We went from arguing over the definition of a Mary Sue to Athena's and Blackquill's swag to geniuses in the AA world. I preferred it when it was still about the middle of the three; at least it has more worth arguing over.

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Not bad Mr Rubia, not bad at all unfortunately your evidence is lacking.

"I suppose...I should be thankful you are not a licensed Psychologist"

"licensed" being the linchpin of your argument here. Unfortunately proving Athena is a licensed Psychologist was never the goal here...I only aimed to say he had a qualification in psychology worth a few years of study.

I myself studied Psychology at University, the course was four years and I walked away with a nice Degree in Psychology. Am I a Psychologist? No of course not, to be a licensed Psychologist I'd need to do more years at university AND have a job in the field.

Licensed Psychologists are those that practice it as part of their job....Athena's full time job is as a lawyer so of course she isn't one of these. That does not indicate she does not have a psychology degree.

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After going through these 8 pages in the last couple hours (and, to be honest, sort of losing focus at the end), there were definitely a few things that bothered me. That being said, I have no idea how organized this is going to be, so please bear with me

But first.
--A thing I wrote a while ago about Athena that may or may not be too long, but if you have time (since in some ways it addresses a few things I found issue with)...
--To only very quickly bring up Ms. Turnquest, our 18 year old lawyer in the UK, she actually also got a psych degree in two years.
--About Apollo's development (as a tangential subject); I feel like, given the release gap between GS4 and GS5, GS5 served as a bit of a reintroduction to Apollo's character, which is why in many ways he remained his GS4-self. Athena's role in being the out-of-case/in-between-case narrator for cases 1-4 is to provide the fresh eyes through which Apollo can be reintroduced. (keepin' this short, but a few more details on the bottom half of the post here, though the entire post is kinda strongly worded at points, haha)

And for some of the other complaints about Athena...

First, that absolutely ridiculous Widget debate (sorry guys ). First, I don't think it's right to apply any problems you have with Widget's actual functioning, as many as do exist, to Athena's character. Her use of it? How she acquired it? Maybe. But the way it actually works is a problem separate from Athena's character herself. While I certainly admit I don't understand how it's used myself, I'm tempted to throw my hands up and "oh well" it from my brain, since Widget comes from the team that also wrote Little Thief, which is somehow able to perfectly recreate rather complicated objects in a massive hologram from a few button presses. They seem to really like their crazy tech, but are pretty bad at explaining just how they can do things on such a massive scope. This is a writing problem, not a character problem.

Second, Athena's ability (and all related shenanigans). To first talk about the little essay linked to earlier about sensitive hearing, I feel like there was a misunderstanding about the headphones (I think...it was BP that mentioned it?) about desensitization vs. blocking out the environment/nullification. While Athena's headphones do have that focus on nullification, in the end they and the audio treatment for hyperacusis also focus on desensitization. The initial and most immediate affect is to nullify input from the environment, but the ultimate goal is that this will lessen the severity of the disease on the whole. Athena and the original poster for the above link both experienced desensitization--it's explicitly mentioned in-game (forgive me for not remembering exactly where) that Athena's sensitive hearing was MUCH worse when she was younger.

(As a related point, this desensitization on Athena's end probably meant she could attend school more regularly and make more friends easier than she could have when she was younger, which could explain her personality change.)

(As an extra related point, Athena and Apollo share very similar power sources--they both use a real-life thing and mix it up with some magic-ification. Apollo is physical tells [with kinetic vision as a source], and Athena is emotional tells [with sensitive hearing as a source]. Athena's was mentioned to be, not necessarily "magic hearing" where she can hear the emotions, but iirc more about how she can hear the tone of voice really clearly, and if it's different it registers as "noise"--probably something like a gut feeling that something is off. Sometimes she can pick out the emotions, though [like with Apollo leaving the agency], and sometimes she can't [Hugh/Robin/Juniper]...but I think it's also worth noting that this difference only presents itself while we play as Athena, probably to keep the mystery for the courtroom.)

Third, I think I want to restate an argument made previously, about the definition of "genius", and the way that translates from school to work (and other endeavors). Athena is a different type of "genius" in some ways because, unlike the others that have shown up, she lacks the ability to have her school genius successfully transition into work genius. Edgeworth, for example, was not really called a prosecuting genius because of how quickly he acquired his badge (though, yes, that was a component), but more because he appeared flawless in the courtroom. He was not a genius because of how quickly he put information into his brain, but more because of how damn successful he was at applying that knowledge. But this is a false equivalence in some ways. The word "genius" has become associated with that acquisition of a badge at a young age --> fantastic lawyer. So we apply that to Athena, who got her badge young. But she is certainly NOT the kind of genius Edgeworth (or the others) ever was, because she can't follow through.

BUT (and this may bleed into "fourth") I also shy away from calling her a genius in name only. She is terrible at lawyering, god forbid she's going solo and your life is in her hands. But



And because we have no frickin clue how old she was when Phoenix helped her out while she was living overseas...we probably can't say more than that.

(Probably) finally, about her good/bad qualities. She has plenty of faults, and tbh I feel like they're commented on a bit more often. She's too emotional, skittish about blood at crime scenes, over-reacts to near everything**, is very child-like (I'm certain Phoenix refers to her as a kid more than once), and is WAY too competitive (brought up multiple times in a negative way by Phoenix and Apollo), among others. On the other hand, the most comment praises are about how GENKI she is...and about the POTENTIAL her power holds. Not that she's SUPER AWESOME already, but that she could feasibly get there.

**This was what the police officer thing was about. It was a character establishing moment, in the same way Apollo punching Phoenix was. She tries to explain the situation, the officer doesn't believer her, Athena gets too heated, the officer goes to grab her, the appropriate emotional dial was turned up to 11, and she frickin throws the guy. She explains to Apollo that it was gut instinct--the officer went for her, so she just reacted.

...Honestly I'm convinced there was more I wanted to say, but this is long enough already...I should probably leave it off here But the general idea is that Athena isn't really a bad character; rather, I think the problem is that the presentation of her character via her place in the plot is shoddy at best.

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Ms Turnquest seems so amazingly designed to suit this situation it's almost incomprehensible. Still that other article provided some new information so sure it's valid. Her Psych degree (unspecified) in two years is amazing but again, this girl (pretty much the pinnacle of law achievement I think we can agree) had a lot of things Athena doesn't. She had one hell of an obsessive mother who home-schooled her and all her children by having people privately tutor them in her own academy. If anything it's more an example of a real life Von Karma to me. The mother was also a Lawyer, so has some influence in the field AND the knowledge of the system in order to accomplish so much as a young age.

Furthermore, and this is crutch, while her achievements are incredible, she is not actually eligible to stand in court yet. She has been "called to the bar" and is able to call herself a Barrister (non-practicing) but she is not eligible to defend in court until she passes it. The article closes with her saying she is going back to America to start studying for the Bar exam there.

As sad as it seems, I could see it as one big master plan devised by her mother through loopholes and educational fast-tracks to culminate in this precise moment.

Now Athena had no connections to Law, no crazy "Excelsior Academy" with private tutelage and she WAS ready to stand in court by 18.



The problem is projecting Holograms is still believable tech, we could probably accomplish something like that now if we wanted. Portable...mind reading devices....not so much.





I'm sorry if my response seems rushed, was a lot to reply to and I'm short on time.

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I don't really disagree with this on the whole, but I still think it's an example of how even a dual-degree can be fast-tracked, and how we shouldn't write it off for Athena completely, especially since we're talking about the AA universe here.



Eh...not quite my point, but maybe it could be possible. It's still a 360-degree massive hologram from a tiny little home-made machine.

In any case, my point was that any problems with Widget are problems of writing, not problems of character.

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Huh, interesting post. There are some problems/issues I have with a few of the things you said, but I want to bring up only one...


Yes, she tried for years, but don't forget her starting point: an anti-social emotionally traumatized 11 year-old orphan. Like I said in my last post, if you're starting as a normal 20-something year-old, then doing something like learning law and/or psychology or whatever in a few years isn't a problem, but for an 11 year-old it's sort of unbelievable. Outside of the rare super-genius, you don't see 11 year-olds in colleges or universities, so matter how much they want to study whatever subject it is.

(Also, I was under the impression Nick had met Athena relatively recently... but idk. Could be wrong.)


...Wow. Pierre is right, it seems like Ms Turnquest was made just for this xD Anyway, I have nothing to add to what Pierre said.


Widget is a unique item that belongs to Athena, and is strongly tied to both her past/backstory and her magical lawyer superpower. I personally think its fine to group complaints about it under the umbrella of "Athena"; we may just have to disagree about this one.
(Wow, that's a really meta thing to disagree on...)


Fine, fine, even if we accept Widget's holographic powers, the main issue is still the fact that it's a portable mind-reading device.


I agree with this, actually. Athena herself isn't bad; she's merely the victim of the plot and writing. But... the problems from the bad plot and writing still manifest themselves as problems with Athena's character.


So she's a different kind of genius from Edgeworth? Okay, fine... she's still a genius, then. Just a different kind.


Those are just, like, regular personality traits. Maybe you don't think they're the best personality traits, but are they really major enough to classify them as "faults"? Maybe she's emotional or childish or whatever, but she isn't "emotional to a fault" or "childish to a fault." I don't think you can take any sort of not-100%-positive aspect of someone and just call it a fault. (The only thing I think could possibly be a "fault" of Athena is her courtroom breakdowns; things like her competitive nature or naivete are more neutral/slightly-negative positive traits. And even then, I don't think it's a very well-done "fault," because outside of the 5 minutes she spends freaking out she's 100% completely fine and normal. If you took out those few lines where she freaks out, there is absolutely nothing to suggest she has any sort of fears or whatever about being in court.)

And it's not like characters need to have faults. I think most of the AA cast doesn't have faults. People may not be perfect, but do you really know many people IRL with massive, gigantic faults? Not having faults in itself isn't a problem, but when the character has tons of amazing, unexplained positive traits (pretty, well-liked, athletic, outgoing, swag, magic powers, speaks multiple languages, super-genius), and when they're a protagonist, it just makes it boring and unrealistic.



(I really can't emphasize how important the fact that Athena is a protagonist is in all of this...)

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I'm not sure were I stand on Athena's character; see if I were just considering this game alone, I might be fond of her spunky, enthusiastic 'let's do this!' personality. However, looking at the series as a whole... her character feels like a repeat of sidekicks from Ace Attorney's past. Maya Fey, Ema Skye, Kay Faraday and, to a lesser extent Trucy Wright; they all are characters with bright and goofy personalities, a special skill (channeling, scientific investigation, crime scene gadget, and perceiving, respectively) and a tragic past-all involving the death of a family member- with a few small variations in their personalities. That's not to say that that made her story any less enjoyable, nor did it make me hate her role in the game; it's just there was too much of a 'been there, done that' feel with her to make me embrace her like I did previous characters in the series

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Well, now that you mention it...I think it would certainly be interesting to have a serious or different type of enthusiastic sidekick for once. I like all the partners we have had so far, but I can understand why you would feel that way. Still, I think Athena stands out as the most 'gung-ho' of all the sidekicks--she may even surpass Kay.

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Likewise, you haven't provided evidence that she does have one. Nowhere in either version of the game has there been a strong suggestion of how long she spent studying it.

If we're to assume that she hadn't met Phoenix until a year or two ago, regardless of what happened in most of those seven years, she would have barely had a year or two to get through schooling. Now, even in the setting of the AA-verse, that is indeed unheard of. (Whether or not Athena had been aware of it, she may have had a few things turn out a bit too smoothly to be normal. I don't mean to infer any backdoor dealings that went on, but if Phoenix could acquire his badge so easily, what's to say that she couldn't? Edgeworth certainly knew plenty about Blackquill and the crew at the Space Center. Besides, I question just how much of either criminal law or psychology that she actually managed to study, if she flubs up at the most lenient of situations.) However, this series has been flooded with overly inspired, bordering super-genius characters from the outset, so in the end, anything that's "unheard of" will simply be accepted into the norm. It's also why the judge would so easily accept the use of Widget, as long as evidence is provided to support her analyses (if we can even call them "analyses").

The cuckoo-cloudlander JUDGE is more down-to-earth than any of his fellow lawyers.


That is still the biggest point of contention: Athena and her nuke button emotion-reading powers. And yet, if she was placed on the other side of the courtroom, how would the trials go? As the prosecutor on the case, she'd have as much authority as she needs. She'd be too much of a powerhouse to fight against; decisive evidence, testimony AND emotion-reading powers? She'd take over not only the court, but the cross-examinations as well, with her psychological manipulation.

Wait, did she just turn into Blackquill? Well, the two of them were designed together, so it's no surprise. That would be what we'd have to face against if Blackquill had been the one to have those special powers, as based on his concept design (yes, the funky-headphones-punk-prosecutor). He'd shape the case into what he decides is right. Apollo's tell-spotting wouldn't be enough to counter it anyway, but as insurance, Taka would take care of that. (And we certainly can't have the miracle of all miracles popping in all the time. That loses the point of making miracles happen.)

The best solution would be if neither side had that superpower, but then this game would become less interesting. The nuke button Mood Matrix is one of its selling points, after all. Besides, how else would we have taken down the Phantom otherwise? A lack of concrete evidence and no witnesses means further investigation is required, but more time investigating means less opportunity to chase him down. These trials only go on for three days max, and it'd be moot to drag to the third day if it doesn't bring up anything useful.

Did I mention that this nuke button has a lock-on targeting system?

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Wow, the debate has certainly devolved from discussing her role in the game and her surplus of traits...

Still, I must confess I do not quite understand the argument some people make here; 'this one person did it in real life'...so? While that is indeed very impressive, it has never been the core of our discussion, nor does it prove anything about Athena.

The fact remains that she was a quiet and traumatized girl who barely attended school, only to magically wind up in Europe and immediately start studying at some random German college because reasons?

And do people genuinely believe we'll have mind-reading necklaces in 2026? I don't care how illogical that sounds, I'm getting one!

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Yes.


No.


Athena is boring. She's a super-genius with swag and magic powers, and is supported by a slew of smart, insightful assistants/attornies. There's no way she's going to lose (even ignoring the fact that she's a protag).

The Mood Matrix is boring. There's no penalties and only 4 options. Plus it conflicts with the "Evidence is everything!" message that has permeated the franchise from its onset.

It's nothing more than a gimmick. It looks pretty and has cool music and gives off a sense of novelty, but when you strip away the bells and whistles it's nothing more than a dumbing down of what the series already offered.

You're speaking about the Phantom as if the game would have the Mood Matrix removed, but everything else was exactly the same. If the Mood Matrix wasn't there, the case would have been changed so that the Mood Matrix wasn't necessary to catch Phantom. The decisive evidence against Phantom was the blood on the moon rock; they would have taken some modified route to arrive there that didn't require the Mood Matrix.

Speaking of changing the game, I'd have preferred for Phantom to have not existed at all. The impersonal and rehashed story was boring, too.


Gimmicks don't make the game interesting. Tight mysteries and interesting stories do. I meant it when I said the other day that the most interesting gameplay system in the franchise is the cross-examination system. If you want proof of just how much can be done with it, look no further than the fangame community, which has a slew of well-made interesting games using nothing more than the mechanics and system introduced in the first game. (Err... that and super-objections, I guess. But I won't get into those.)

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