Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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What I mean by "more" is by thinking more creatively. Instead of having only a few options for emotions to pick answers from, include the right questions to ask, depending on the emotion you've chosen to address. Also note that if the question chosen doesn't match the emotion you've selected, it's still wrong. Pair those questions with the right evidence as well if needed. With more options to choose from without realizing one's mistake, it naturally increases the challenge. It makes for more long-winded discussions - sometimes irrelevant - but it's a simple way to expand the dialogue trees without changing the primary script or forcing the attorney to take a penalty. Also, there wouldn't be a need for extra cartridge space for a system made completely from scratch.
It'd be an alternate to changing the Revisualization mechanic, which purpose is to summarize the case, not make it more complicated. Leave that stuff to the therapy sessions.
At the very least, let Widget do the detecting and Athena the interpreting. That way, she doesn't seem like she has a unique superpower to compliment her other odd quirks. She ought to update Widget with that function, as her powers seem to wane over time.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:
I suppose I could have reworded that more clearly. The Mood Matrix was advertised to be something new to add to the series and more than a simple gimmick. What it turned out to be was a simple gimmick, but that only came in hindsight, once the developers explained how simple it was. If it was more than a matter of finding the wrong or missing emotions, then it certainly would have more potential. However, they kept it simple and very clear-cut.
What I mean by "more" is by thinking more creatively. Instead of having only a few options for emotions to pick answers from, include the right questions to ask, depending on the emotion you've chosen to address. Also note that if the question chosen doesn't match the emotion you've selected, it's still wrong. Pair those questions with the right evidence as well if needed. With more options to choose from without realizing one's mistake, it naturally increases the challenge. It makes for more long-winded discussions - sometimes irrelevant - but it's a simple way to expand the dialogue trees without changing the primary script or forcing the attorney to take a penalty. Also, there wouldn't be a need for extra cartridge space for a system made completely from scratch.
It'd be an alternate to changing the Revisualization mechanic, which purpose is to summarize the case, not make it more complicated. Leave that stuff to the therapy sessions.
At the very least, let Widget do the detecting and Athena the interpreting. That way, she doesn't seem like she has a unique superpower to compliment her other odd quirks. She ought to update Widget with that function, as her powers seem to wane over time.
What I mean by "more" is by thinking more creatively. Instead of having only a few options for emotions to pick answers from, include the right questions to ask, depending on the emotion you've chosen to address. Also note that if the question chosen doesn't match the emotion you've selected, it's still wrong. Pair those questions with the right evidence as well if needed. With more options to choose from without realizing one's mistake, it naturally increases the challenge. It makes for more long-winded discussions - sometimes irrelevant - but it's a simple way to expand the dialogue trees without changing the primary script or forcing the attorney to take a penalty. Also, there wouldn't be a need for extra cartridge space for a system made completely from scratch.
It'd be an alternate to changing the Revisualization mechanic, which purpose is to summarize the case, not make it more complicated. Leave that stuff to the therapy sessions.
At the very least, let Widget do the detecting and Athena the interpreting. That way, she doesn't seem like she has a unique superpower to compliment her other odd quirks. She ought to update Widget with that function, as her powers seem to wane over time.
Maybe, but at this point I think the discussion may be getting a bit too deep into the hypothetical realm ^^"
In any case, it seems we agree that the Mood Matrix and Thought Route were not the best implementations of their respective ideas.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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I apologize if this is an incoherent blob of words. :D
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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zpattack12 wrote:
To me, the one thing that really got me about Athena, was when they were describing her past. While a person can change a great deal in the years of 11-18, the way it happened seemed so wrong to me. She was, as many people said before, a social recluse, and all of sudden she's bright, perky assistant number 5? And the reason she changed really got me, in the Detention Center, someone asks her about why she's so much different now, and she gave a response akin to, "cuz I felt like it". I mean, this is a girl who just lost her mother, and was clearly emotionally scarred by this, yet she changes like that? Her character development was a huge part to the story, yet it feels so inauthentic. You can't relate to Athena like you were able to relate the Edgeworth, or Phoenix when some details about his past come out. It doesn't help that for 99% of the game, Athena shows little evidence of her past. I can count three or four instances when it became prominent, so this led the Athena we knew to feel completely different from the Athena with the messed up past.
I apologize if this is an incoherent blob of words. :D
I apologize if this is an incoherent blob of words. :D
Explanation specially brought back for you:
Quote:
Spoiler: Crack Theory Spoilers from 5-5 throughout.
For Everyone else.
The Pro-Athena crowd keep dodging around one of the largest issues here: How on Earth would talentless traumatised average Athena be brought to Europe and instantly enrolled in a recognised institution of law.
Widget is still non-negotiable, it may be poor writing, but as it is uniquely associated with Athena as BP said...it's a problem with Athena.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Hm. I have given up on discussing her abilities' progress, but I really can't believe you have such a problem about a person with sensitive hearing being able to hear emotions in a person's voice. I mean, anyone can do it. I can hear it when someone is sad, angry, happy or sarcastic... I thought it's a basic human ability.
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Pierre wrote:
The Pro-Athena crowd keep dodging around one of the largest issues here: How on Earth would talentless traumatised average Athena be brought to Europe and instantly enrolled in a recognised institution of law.
Widget is still non-negotiable, it may be poor writing, but as it is uniquely associated with Athena as BP said...it's a problem with Athena.
Widget is still non-negotiable, it may be poor writing, but as it is uniquely associated with Athena as BP said...it's a problem with Athena.
Hm, let me think, am I really pro- or anti-Athena?
First, a girl with that level of hearing sensitivity isn't exactly "average", and it may count as both a talent and a trait once controlled.
Second, if her mother was a psychologist with such prestige to be called to work at a government-funded space center, it's just as possible that Athena's relatives aren't too bad off themselves. Perhaps they enrolled her into a private university and "paid off" the evaluators. She wouldn't have known what happened anyway, since people would just tell her that she was chosen for her "special ability" or whatnot. Then, it'd be a matter of her own work ethic, and apparently, it's pretty strong by then.
Third, the biggest question is not what you raised here. It is the question over what's the point of giving the players an ally whose power breaks the story/game? I mean, it IS her story, but it ends up leaving something else to be desired from the rivaling party...
Sligneris wrote:
Now, how can an android have trauma and have problems with keeping her thoughts together in court?... This ain't explainin' shit.
Hm. I have given up on discussing her abilities' progress, but I really can't believe you have such a problem about a person with sensitive hearing being able to hear emotions in a person's voice. I mean, anyone can do it. I can hear it when someone is sad, angry, happy or sarcastic... I thought it's a basic human skill.
Hm. I have given up on discussing her abilities' progress, but I really can't believe you have such a problem about a person with sensitive hearing being able to hear emotions in a person's voice. I mean, anyone can do it. I can hear it when someone is sad, angry, happy or sarcastic... I thought it's a basic human skill.
Hey. Leave the android theory alone. It actually makes sense in a way.
Plus, you're underestimating the difficulty of interpreting emotional response. Not everyone is an open book like she is.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Sligneris wrote:
Now, how can an android have trauma and have problems with keeping her thoughts together in court?... This ain't explainin' shit.
Well we'd be getting into mighty Android ethics about whether they have souls or not if we follow down that line of questioning XD So lets stick with it being a crack theory and attribute it to corrupted memories from emulated emotion overloads. After all Ponco and Clonco emulate emotions well, crank that up to 11 for an advanced creature like Athena.
When she breaks down? She finds the missing or corrupted files and blanks (which would explain why Widget suddenly blacks out) with the lingering emotion that broke her then (massive fear) being the only thing that really comes forward and even then it's stuttery.
As for keeping her thoughts together in court? Well yeah they didn't want it to be apparent she's an android so she's programmed to not be perfect of course otherwise it would make her a target.
Also since I've seen concept Athena (I think SuperAJ's current Avatar) I'm almost certain she WAS to be robotic at one point.
Rubia wrote:
First, a girl with that level of hearing sensitivity isn't exactly "average", and it may count as both a talent and a trait once controlled.
There's no indication it was really common knowledge or something she shared at all. It's nice but there's never really been any indication this would be enough. Phoenix and Apollo are hardly lauded for their magic tricks as well and Apollo's is known and prevented in Court by Taka.
Quote:
Second, if her mother was a psychologist with such prestige to be called to work at a government-funded space center, it's just as possible that Athena's relatives aren't too bad off themselves. Perhaps they enrolled her into a private university and "paid off" the evaluators. She wouldn't have known what happened anyway, since people would just tell her that she was chosen for her "special ability" or whatnot. Then, it'd be a matter of her own work ethic, and apparently, it's pretty strong by then.
That's just pure conjecture I'm afraid. We only know she has relatives in Europe, probably her only surviving ones or something or Grandparents. Again there is so little information for Athena, you see exactly why she is such a problem with her writing. She's been given so much for so little.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:
Second, if her mother was a psychologist with such prestige to be called to work at a government-funded space center, it's just as possible that Athena's relatives aren't too bad off themselves. Perhaps they enrolled her into a private university and "paid off" the evaluators. She wouldn't have known what happened anyway, since people would just tell her that she was chosen for her "special ability" or whatnot. Then, it'd be a matter of her own work ethic, and apparently, it's pretty strong by then.
I can't deny it, but this is purely conjecture. So... I mean, it's possible, but there's nothing in the game to prove or disprove it.
Sligneris wrote:
Now, how can an android have trauma and have problems with keeping her thoughts together in court?... This ain't explainin' shit.
It's a crack theory...
Quote:
Hm. I have given up on discussing her abilities' progress, but I really can't believe you have such a problem about a person with sensitive hearing being able to hear emotions in a person's voice. I mean, anyone can do it. I can hear it when someone is sad, angry, happy or sarcastic... I thought it's a basic human ability.
You realize that the whole point of Athena's ability is that she can hear concealed emotions, right? (By hearing the "voice of the heart" or "noise" or whatever the heck it is.)
If it was something as simple as "She sounds sad!!" why wouldn't someone else be able to do it? And why would Widget be necessary?
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Pierre wrote:
Really? Folks are making the massive generalisation that hitting on head = memory loss. There's no evidence the officer in question landed on his head especially hard. Apollo got hit on the head and he didn't seem to suffer much memory loss (IIRC) and lets not forget HoboNick who got hit by a car...and hit his head on a lamppost and only got a sprained ankle.
Okay, to extend my personal policy of "just think of it as humor for the sake of it", here's what I think happened afterward.
Officer: Sir!! Sir, there you are.
Fullbright: Ah? Inspector Wilkins! What appears to be the manner of distress? Is there someone out there in need of justice??
O: N-no, sir, I mean...maybe, sir? Listen!! Has anyone here seen a suspicious-looking young lady with a long ponytail, wearing a yellow overcoat, with some...large-
FB: OH! Yellow coat? You must be talking about Ms. Cykes! Apparently, she and Mr. Justice are to be the defense attorneys in Mr. Tenma's trial.
O: Cykes? You know her!
FB: Only a little. Apparently managed to get her attorney's badge at the tender age of 18! Can you believe it?
O: Wait...she's an attorney...really?
FB: Hahaha! I think it's wonderful that men and women of all ages are seeking justice in life! Still! Prosecutor Blackquill has insisted we do not let the two of them talk to the witnesses we've lined up! I'm sure if it comes to it, handling a young girl of her age isn't a problem for one of the city's finest, right Mr. Wilkins?
O: ...Of course....not...
FB: Now then! Was there something to report?
O: ....No....sir....
FB: Say!! Wilkins! You appear to have a nasty bump on your head! Haha! Not to worry! You're not the only person to sometimes slip getting out of the shower!
I'm gone for so long, and the colors got all psychedelic! Woohoo!
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Sligneris wrote:
Mostly because these emotions are concealed, just as you said. They are not as clear, so only she is able to hear that, thanks to her sensitive hearing. At least, that's what I think about it.
But IRL "sensitive hearing" seems to do with the quantity of sound. Athena's hearing deals with the quality of sound. That's totally different. And if that's all her powers are, it still makes Widget seem completely unnecessary.
Someone IRL with sensitive hearing may be able to hear a whisper from 100 feet away, but they can't magically know that the person is angry any better than a regular person, no matter how close or far they are.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Katana wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Really? Folks are making the massive generalisation that hitting on head = memory loss. There's no evidence the officer in question landed on his head especially hard. Apollo got hit on the head and he didn't seem to suffer much memory loss (IIRC) and lets not forget HoboNick who got hit by a car...and hit his head on a lamppost and only got a sprained ankle.
Okay, to extend my personal policy of "just think of it as humor for the sake of it", here's what I think happened afterward.
Officer: Sir!! Sir, there you are.
Fullbright: Ah? Inspector Wilkins! What appears to be the manner of distress? Is there someone out there in need of justice??
O: N-no, sir, I mean...maybe, sir? Listen!! Has anyone here seen a suspicious-looking young lady with a long ponytail, wearing a yellow overcoat, with some...large-
FB: OH! Yellow coat? You must be talking about Ms. Cykes! Apparently, she and Mr. Justice are to be the defense attorneys in Mr. Tenma's trial.
O: Cykes? You know her!
FB: Only a little. Apparently managed to get her attorney's badge at the tender age of 18! Can you believe it?
O: Wait...she's an attorney...really?
FB: Hahaha! I think it's wonderful that men and women of all ages are seeking justice in life! Still! Prosecutor Blackquill has insisted we do not let the two of them talk to the witnesses we've lined up! I'm sure if it comes to it, handling a young girl of her age isn't a problem for one of the city's finest, right Mr. Wilkins?
O: ...Of course....not...
FB: Now then! Was there something to report?
O: ....No....sir....
FB: Say!! Wilkins! You appear to have a nasty bump on your head! Haha! Not to worry! You're not the only person to sometimes slip getting out of the shower!
This sounds like a fantastic encounter XD Like any with Fulbright.
Quote:
But IRL "sensitive hearing" seems to do with the quantity of sound. Athena's hearing deals with the quality of sound. That's totally different. And if that's all her powers are, it still makes Widget seem completely unnecessary.
Someone IRL with sensitive hearing may be able to hear a whisper from 100 feet away, but they can't magically know that the person is angry any better than a regular person, no matter how close or far they are.
Someone IRL with sensitive hearing may be able to hear a whisper from 100 feet away, but they can't magically know that the person is angry any better than a regular person, no matter how close or far they are.
They could have done entirely without having Athena study Analytical Psychology. Since she hardly uses it at all as far as I can see. Most situations are just reliant on her 'powers'. Widget projects either the person's emotions or Athena hears them an inputs them. Then ANYONE points out "This doesn't seem normal...." and the witness is like "Oh right....ah that's why"
I don't really get why that is considered psychology....most of the time it's just Apollo or Phoenix using the Mood matrix with Athena as a conduit. It's another thing that bothers me how she boasts about it so much when there's really next to nothing of it that is used.
Blackquill boxing the defendant in to force a confession, sure that's at least a bit psychological than simply saying "This is weird....why?"
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Pierre wrote:
I don't really get why that is considered psychology....most of the time it's just Apollo or Phoenix using the Mood matrix with Athena as a conduit. It's another thing that bothers me how she boasts about it so much when there's really next to nothing of it that is used.
I don't really get why what every other character does is considered practicing law. It's not like they're actually utilizing laws or doing anything else you need a legal degree to do, they're just listening to testimony and going "Wait, you found the body at 3:00? THAT'S NOT WHAT THE EVIDENCE SAYS!"
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Franzise Deauxnim wrote:
Pierre wrote:
I don't really get why that is considered psychology....most of the time it's just Apollo or Phoenix using the Mood matrix with Athena as a conduit. It's another thing that bothers me how she boasts about it so much when there's really next to nothing of it that is used.
I don't really get why what every other character does is considered practicing law. It's not like they're actually utilizing laws or doing anything else you need a legal degree to do, they're just listening to testimony and going "Wait, you found the body at 3:00? THAT'S NOT WHAT THE EVIDENCE SAYS!"
Eh I think a lot of it is clauses and rules and loopholes, procedures and stuff. Actually in the latest game it seems there's a load of things hinting at the amazingly trivial things that go into lawyering. Things like the perfect arm angle on your point and when presenting evidence.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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DragonCactus wrote:
GentlemanGamer wrote:
I'm not sure were I stand on Athena's character; see if I were just considering this game alone, I might be fond of her spunky, enthusiastic 'let's do this!' personality. However, looking at the series as a whole... her character feels like a repeat of sidekicks from Ace Attorney's past. Maya Fey, Ema Skye, Kay Faraday and, to a lesser extent Trucy Wright; they all are characters with bright and goofy personalities, a special skill (channeling, scientific investigation, crime scene gadget, and perceiving, respectively) and a tragic past-all involving the death of a family member- with a few small variations in their personalities. That's not to say that that made her story any less enjoyable, nor did it make me hate her role in the game; it's just there was too much of a 'been there, done that' feel with her to make me embrace her like I did previous characters in the series 
Well, now that you mention it...I think it would certainly be interesting to have a serious or different type of enthusiastic sidekick for once. I like all the partners we have had so far, but I can understand why you would feel that way. Still, I think Athena stands out as the most 'gung-ho' of all the sidekicks--she may even surpass Kay.
Don't get me wrong, I LIKE Athena and all... but to me she has too much of that 'samey'-ness to be a new favorite for me... at this point.
Who knows though? Perhaps another playthrough might change my opinion? That's what happened with Edgeworth: one playthrough I view him merely as a stick-in-the-mud sort of snob, but the next I started to grow on me (mind you, this was before I played any of the games featuring his POV, so it wasn't merely a 'he's the protagonist, so I GUESS I've got to like him' sort of thing 
) . In any case, any excuse to revisit DD is a good one in my books 
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Pierre wrote:
Things like the perfect arm angle on your point and when presenting evidence.
This is the most important part of making an objection, obviously. It's why Athena needs more practice. Her arm angle is too low.
Who the heck taught her law anyway? They're clearly missing the most important points of the curriculum. And don't get me started on her psychiatric practices. This is clearly a case of misinformation. The poor girl's more of a victim than I thought.
That said, Apollo's arm angle is a bit too high. What is wrong with youth today?
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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...wat o.o
(I know Turnabout Quiz is silly and in all likelihood not canon, but still... wat o.o)
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Bad Player wrote:
So I played a bit more of Turnabout Quiz today... and Athena's magic hearing power let her magically know where the next stage of the game would be.
...wat o.o
(I know Turnabout Quiz is silly and in all likelihood not canon, but still... wat o.o)
...wat o.o
(I know Turnabout Quiz is silly and in all likelihood not canon, but still... wat o.o)
Shall we take that as a parody within a parody or simply as an added description of her power as an all-purpose button?
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Things like the perfect arm angle on your point and when presenting evidence.
This is the most important part of making an objection, obviously. It's why Athena needs more practice. Her arm angle is too low.
Who the heck taught her law anyway? They're clearly missing the most important points of the curriculum. And don't get me started on her psychiatric practices. This is clearly a case of misinformation. The poor girl's more of a victim than I thought.
That said, Apollo's arm angle is a bit too high. What is wrong with youth today?
I knew it! Short people aren't supposed to be lawyers! Apollo is obviously using a... um... thing.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Bad Player wrote:
The Mood Matrix is boring. There's no penalties and only 4 options. Plus it conflicts with the "Evidence is everything!" message that has permeated the franchise from its onset.
Umm, correct me if I'm wrong (which I probably am), but I don't ever recall the Mood Matrix ever being used as hard evidence. The therapy sessions helped clear the witness' doubts about the situation. I don't ever recall Athena saying something like : "You are the killer because you felt sadness during this point of your testimony!". The conflicting emotions always SUPPORTED the evidence (iirc), so in a sense, yes, "Evidence is still everything".
Besides, wasn't the entire point of the MASON System to prove how flawed that line of reasoning was...?
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Zekrom025 wrote:
Bad Player wrote:
The Mood Matrix is boring. There's no penalties and only 4 options. Plus it conflicts with the "Evidence is everything!" message that has permeated the franchise from its onset.
Umm, correct me if I'm wrong (which I probably am), but I don't ever recall the Mood Matrix ever being used as hard evidence. The therapy sessions helped clear the witness' doubts about the situation. I don't ever recall Athena saying something like : "You are the killer because you felt sadness during this point of your testimony!". The conflicting emotions always SUPPORTED the evidence (iirc), so in a sense, yes, "Evidence is still everything".
Besides, wasn't the entire point of the MASON System to prove how flawed that line of reasoning was...?
It usually wasn't used as evidence (they used it as evidence only for the final boss), but pointing out contradictions and advancing your logic based on something as wishy-washy as emotions still felt really weird ~_~
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Bad Player wrote:
Zekrom025 wrote:
Bad Player wrote:
The Mood Matrix is boring. There's no penalties and only 4 options. Plus it conflicts with the "Evidence is everything!" message that has permeated the franchise from its onset.
Umm, correct me if I'm wrong (which I probably am), but I don't ever recall the Mood Matrix ever being used as hard evidence. The therapy sessions helped clear the witness' doubts about the situation. I don't ever recall Athena saying something like : "You are the killer because you felt sadness during this point of your testimony!". The conflicting emotions always SUPPORTED the evidence (iirc), so in a sense, yes, "Evidence is still everything".
Besides, wasn't the entire point of the MASON System to prove how flawed that line of reasoning was...?
It usually wasn't used as evidence (they used it as evidence only for the final boss), but pointing out contradictions and advancing your logic based on something as wishy-washy as emotions still felt really weird ~_~
I can understand your point. If you'd walk into a court, start your cross-examination, and suddenly burst out in "MISTER SMITH, YOU WERE NOT HAPPY WHEN YOU ATE YOUR BIRTHDAY CAKE WHY!", all you might get was a blank stare, if lucky, and some rather sarcastic comments if not.
Still, there's a reason why Dual Destinies is the game to play if you enjoy making witness sweat. What I enjoyed about the mood matrix was the slightly interesting truths about psychology, but mostly the images that appeared. That was cool.
I think the Mood Matrix had a potential if only it had more to do with, y'know, actual psychology.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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DragonCactus wrote:
I think the Mood Matrix had a potential if only it had more to do with, y'know, actual psychology.
No doubt that the Mood Matrix could have been much more than it turned out to be. Still, I don't think adding concrete psychological studies into it will actually make the experience more enjoyable. The fact that the "therapy sessions" were kept short and concise is something that has been done well to maintain a good pace in storytelling. The main problem, of course, is that they were too simple to be justified as anything more than invasions of privacy. Though the analyses were never submitted as evidence, many times, the questions from such procedures lead dangerously into areas that had little or no relevance to the case on trial. If the prosecution was just a bit more aggressive about it, he could easily have overruled the defense from continuing, and suddenly, it's game over.
But ya know, the pretty pictures and flashing emoticons are really nice to look at, and the accompanying music is always soothing to listen to. If only it didn't remind me of that old 4-panel Simon-Says toy, I'd have at least tried to take it a bit more seriously.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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With the Magatama, at least its somewhat believable, because when you take out the spiritual part of it, its just someone lying, (usually quite obvious), and preventing evidence to figure out what they are trying to cover up. It really didn't require any spiritual aspect to it, its literally just questioning a witness, and getting an answer out of them, and it was given a spiritual focus just because they can.
It just feels phony to say something like, "You twitched, so you must be lying to us", or "You were sad because my powers said so, why is that?", as opposed to showing concrete things with evidence. That to me is the biggest issue with the Perceive/Mood Matrix. I would've preferred if the game had those in investigation only, so that you still had to piece together the actual evidence with the prior knowledge of investigation, and it would make investigation much more interesting.
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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zpattack12 wrote:
The mood matrix has the same problem as the perceive system, which is, it doesn't really seem to make sense. I felt like a lot of times they would just go like, "URE LYING MAH POWER SAID SO" and the witness would just go with it. It doesn't seem to make any sense, and again, doesn't go with the evidence is everything idea that has been drilled into us.
With the Magatama, at least its somewhat believable, because when you take out the spiritual part of it, its just someone lying, (usually quite obvious), and preventing evidence to figure out what they are trying to cover up. It really didn't require any spiritual aspect to it, its literally just questioning a witness, and getting an answer out of them, and it was given a spiritual focus just because they can.
It just feels phony to say something like, "You twitched, so you must be lying to us", or "You were sad because my powers said so, why is that?", as opposed to showing concrete things with evidence. That to me is the biggest issue with the Perceive/Mood Matrix. I would've preferred if the game had those in investigation only, so that you still had to piece together the actual evidence with the prior knowledge of investigation, and it would make investigation much more interesting.
With the Magatama, at least its somewhat believable, because when you take out the spiritual part of it, its just someone lying, (usually quite obvious), and preventing evidence to figure out what they are trying to cover up. It really didn't require any spiritual aspect to it, its literally just questioning a witness, and getting an answer out of them, and it was given a spiritual focus just because they can.
It just feels phony to say something like, "You twitched, so you must be lying to us", or "You were sad because my powers said so, why is that?", as opposed to showing concrete things with evidence. That to me is the biggest issue with the Perceive/Mood Matrix. I would've preferred if the game had those in investigation only, so that you still had to piece together the actual evidence with the prior knowledge of investigation, and it would make investigation much more interesting.
I think that problem belongs mainly to the Mood Matrix; Apollo usually has to present evidence to support his claims as well.
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Still, I like perceive better, since nervous tics feel a lot more "concrete" than magically hearing emotions. Plus it feels like using Mood Matrix is just making random statements without any real proof.
Note a big difference between when perceive and mood matrix are used: perceive is used when witnesses are actively hiding something; mood matrix is used when witnesses are genuinely confused. In other words, Polly needs to use evidence during perceive in order to prove the witness is lying. Athena doesn't need evidence in mood matrix, because the witness isn't actively lying; once Athena points out the problem with the testimony, they fix it of their own accord. So the lack of evidence in mood matrix as opposed to perceive is also due to the different situations in which they're used.
(To illustrate how, for the most part, mood matrix isn't used on witnesses who are actively lying while perceive is... notice how in DD, we only use mood matrix on one killer, whereas in AJ there's only one killer we don't use perceive on.)
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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TheIdioteque wrote:
I never had a problem with the 'Perceive' system, because a lot of people probably do have "nervous habits" whenever they lie and like Thane said, Apollo usually presents evidence to back up his claim. Also, I had a huge problem with Blackquill accusing Apollo of "cheating" because of his 'Perceive' ability but had no problems with Athena using her 'Mood Matrix" which is, in my opinion, a much bigger cheat. It really made him come off as hypocritical.
He just wanted to see what Athena can pull out (of her rear end) and Apollo's freakout whenever Taka attacks him.
Bad Player wrote:
Note a big difference between when perceive and mood matrix are used: perceive is used when witnesses are actively hiding something; mood matrix is used when witnesses are genuinely confused. In other words, Polly needs to use evidence during perceive in order to prove the witness is lying. Athena doesn't need evidence in mood matrix, because the witness isn't actively lying; once Athena points out the problem with the testimony, they fix it of their own accord. So the lack of evidence in mood matrix as opposed to perceive is also due to the different situations in which they're used.
(To illustrate how, for the most part, mood matrix isn't used on witnesses who are actively lying while perceive is... notice how in DD, we only use mood matrix on one killer, whereas in AJ there's only one killer we don't use perceive on.)
(To illustrate how, for the most part, mood matrix isn't used on witnesses who are actively lying while perceive is... notice how in DD, we only use mood matrix on one killer, whereas in AJ there's only one killer we don't use perceive on.)
Yep, those are basically the purposes of the two. One searches out actively hidden secrets, while the other searches for those lying dormant. Either way, evidence is required to back up those claims, even if the defense waits until the very end of their therapy session to present something. Rather than presenting evidence for each particular claim at a particular time, they present evidence for the concluding claim they make instead. This is a much more efficient process.
The only time the MM was accepted to accuse a killer with was also the only time there was an absolute lack of evidence to draw said witness into the case. Call it the whims of a whimsical judge, but that's how things played out. All other times, he wouldn't accept that weird thing without some sort of support. Besides, the prosecution didn't have any objections either, so technically, it was still following proper protocol.
Well, I suppose Mr. Phantom could have pleaded the fifth on some things, but then we wouldn't get anywhere except Slashyland. Blackquill is not afraid to fire away deadly finger shuriken, even if it's blatant witness abuse. The worst it could get him is his arrest again, but he wouldn't be on death row anymore.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Spoiler: Apollo Justice generation spoilers
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Scent wrote:
Spoiler: Apollo Justice generation spoilers
I'd like to return to Apollo and Trucy as well, but I admit that at this point it seems unlikely now that Athena pretty much replaced Trucy in this game. Perhaps it will get its own plotline in the future.
Spoiler: Case 3-5
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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DragonCactus wrote:
Scent wrote:
Spoiler: Apollo Justice generation spoilers
I'd like to return to Apollo and Trucy as well, but I admit that at this point it seems unlikely now that Athena pretty much replaced Trucy in this game. Perhaps it will get its own plotline in the future.
Spoiler: Case 3-5
I'm more worried that in spite of the references to lamiroir Klavier doesn't say a thing. That dress being an original design is suspect seeing as I had assumed Klavier had a hand in it but no it was designed for the concert with no mention to the international singer who rocks that look already.
Though to stay on topic the point that bothers me is that these points about Apollo and Trucy and their bloodlines and family that should have been addressed were harshly sidelined as Athena's plot takes dominance throughout.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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DragonCactus wrote:
Scent wrote:
Spoiler: Apollo Justice generation spoilers
I'd like to return to Apollo and Trucy as well, but I admit that at this point it seems unlikely now that Athena pretty much replaced Trucy in this game. Perhaps it will get its own plotline in the future.
Spoiler: Case 3-5
They mentioned the 3-day trial limit in DD. I'm not sure we're ever gonna get a 3-day trial again, though
(I mean, the "final case" was a 1-day trial!)
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Bad Player wrote:
DragonCactus wrote:
Scent wrote:
Spoiler: Apollo Justice generation spoilers
I'd like to return to Apollo and Trucy as well, but I admit that at this point it seems unlikely now that Athena pretty much replaced Trucy in this game. Perhaps it will get its own plotline in the future.
Spoiler: Case 3-5
They mentioned the 3-day trial limit in DD. I'm not sure we're ever gonna get a 3-day trial again, though
(I mean, the "final case" was a 1-day trial!)
Unless you count both the 4th and 5th cases as one.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Bad Player wrote:
That's why I put it in quotes ;D
Oh, touché, then .
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Phoenix: Thank you Athena.....without you I'd never had rediscovered the "Wright" way...
Seems she knows Phoenix's code better than he does XD.
Though I do think it's a shame Wendee Lee's version of the song sounds a little lacklustre compared to the Japanese version, not really fitting of Athena's perfect energetic character.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Pierre wrote:
So just played through Turnabout Reclaimed and found this shining reference:
Phoenix: Thank you Athena.....without you I'd never had rediscovered the "Wright" way...
Seems she knows Phoenix's code better than he does XD.
Though I do think it's a shame Wendee Lee's version of the song sounds a little lacklustre compared to the Japanese version, not really fitting of Athena's perfect energetic character.
Phoenix: Thank you Athena.....without you I'd never had rediscovered the "Wright" way...
Seems she knows Phoenix's code better than he does XD.
Though I do think it's a shame Wendee Lee's version of the song sounds a little lacklustre compared to the Japanese version, not really fitting of Athena's perfect energetic character.
Yeah, at times it would seem that she was trying a bit too much, but oh well, at least it was fun seeing them do something different for a change. xD
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