OK First of all I've played all five main games straight one after another so to me they almost all feel like one long game which may explain my vision of things.
Also I haven't read the whole thread because...Well it IS long and after 4 pages of what felt mainly like bashing I got tired of it (plus the fact that I agreed with most of TheBlarghMan's replies in those).

So I don't know if some issues have been addressed since then. I kept reading about Athena magic hearing when I don't remember having it been described as that. I remember it being called sensitive hearing which is an actual thing. And maybe it's because I once met someone who suffered from it but I can't consider it being a magic power and if anything Athena is the only one with no magical thingy at all. Because Widget is technology while Phoenix's magatama and Apollo's bracelet aren't exactly product of it.
I also remember Phoenix saying at the beginning that her ability would be of use however he didn't exactly address her age or her ability to make it as a lawyer so soon because it's a given in AA that it's possible and isn't considered that amazing anymore. Her title of genius is more considered just a title than actually true because she passed the bar exam before the 'usual' age and it isn't even that used. What makes her unusual is her 'illness' and how she learned to use it at her advantage. but not many people actually address it.

Second double majoring exist and if Athena could manage to get a law degree by the time she's 18 she could easily have a double major/degree plus she actually must have had a master to get her lawyer licence so it isn't that far fetched. There's also the possibility of taking university courses even if you haven't had your SATs yet (at least in France and with the SATs equivalent) if you take correspondence courses. I remember it being said that she worked extra hard and I can easily imagine her going to normal classes and easily skip a few grades (two or three) while taking little to no holidays and keep working. She may also have used this extra load of work to get away from what happened to her mother or her life in general while maintaining a link with her throughout widget and psychology. And as said by phoenix in the first case she's not an actual psychologist which mean no master probably only a degree.
So is is far fetched ? Definitely Yes. But impossible ? No.

She also didn't seem to get that much love from other characters. Sure they were friendly or neutral but that wasn't especially because of herself. Case one...People weren't exactly the nicest toward her, case two Apollo took the most of it but mainly because of his hairdo, ect...

As for the fact that she's in every case, she's part of the agency of course she will be. They're all in every case, in one way or another. Phoenix is now a mentor and as such he isn't directly acting in every cases because that's not his role anymore we've seen too much of him already to need playing him more than what he did. So we use him to guide her on the first game of the series (so that we'd have to deal with her directly) because she barely lasted a few minutes against Payne. Then we play him once again because he is the mentor and the kids really need his help. As for Athena and Apollo they're both part of the main plot and if Athena seems to be thrown on the forefront, Apollo's part is equally as important. Just because it was in the background doesn't mean that he wasn't there. I felt like it was actually well balanced. Remember that Apollo had already some background and Athena as a character needed a reason to have been introduced otherwise they would have left the WAA without any other lawyers. However the end of AJ was leading to a moment where Apollo would have trouble with Phoenix where he was going to question him and considering his personality he would have left then too and as such the game would have been reduced to Phoenix and Trucy. Only PHoenix has already been developed enough for now and I feel like it would have...maybe not been boring but it would have definitely missed something as the wright duo wouldn't be very entertaining in court and as he doesn't need mia anymore pearl wouldn't have been that great too. So I feel like Athena's part in this game was very much needed. I also like the fact that we played different characters so that if you didn't like one you didn't have to play as him/her for the whole game.

Plus I really like Athena so it helps....

Before, I reply to your points... Welcome to the forums!

Sensitive hearing is a real thing, and I'm sure that's what Athena's power is based on, but they are not the same thing. Sensitive hearing means that they can hear really quiet sounds, that most other people can't. Athena's power lets her hear "the voice of the heart" (or whatever it is), which then lets her magically know what emotion people are feeling. Someone with sensitive hearing would be able to hear and understand someone whispering on the other side of a room; however (unlike Athena) they wouldn't be able to tell what emotion that person is feeling any better than a regular person.

Let me try to provide another example: In your body, there's a protein called myostatin that inhibits muscle growth. (It's not some sort of disease-related thing that causes people to be sickly; regular people all have it. When your body thinks your muscles are getting too big, it sends myostatin in to cause the muscles to stop growing.) However, there are cases (in non-humans too) of people with less myostatin than usual, leading to them having more muscle mass/easier-to-grow muscles. Now, suppose there was a character in a fictional work who said something about having a myostatin deficiency, or something kinda similar. If they suddenly lifted a car, would you say it was realistic?

Also Widget may be more "technology," but it's even more ridiculous than the bracelet and magatama imo. It's a portable remote mind-reading device. That's... That's just insane. If any sort of mind-reading technology existed in the AA world existed, the world would be massively different--and yet we see absolutely no indication of it at all, except for this one, random instance.

Besides, the problem is less the existence of the magic power itself, and more that the magic power isn't explained at all. In AJ, they do provide a semi-realistic explanation of how Apollo's power works, and say where he got it from. While there isn't an explanation like that for the magatama, it was already established in JFA that the Feys have magic power, plus there is a lot of lore behind the Feys that the game introduces. Athena's power seems to be nothing more than "I have it because I have it, and it works because it works."


It's still considered amazing. They make a point about Klavier become a prosecutor at 17 in AJ, a year before DD. While it's true that they don't call her a genius that often (or ever, really), it doesn't change the fact that she's an 18 year old bilingual attorney psychologist--that's pretty much genius material right there, even if they don't explicitly say it.


We've never argued that it's impossible. What we've been arguing is that it's far-fetched, silly, and bad character design.

Athena became a lawyer six years early. While also getting some sort of training in psychology. Skipping two or three grades isn't going to cut it.

And don't forget her starting point--a social awkward, reclusive, psychologically damaged orphan in a new country who has had poor attendance at school her entire life. Going from that to the Athena we see in DD isn't impossible, but it's just... stupid and ridiculous.

(Even if she did have appropriate backstory, I think making a character like Athena the protagonist at all is a bad decision.)


Everyone but the prosecutors and killers pretty much adored Athena.


Eh, you bring up some good points, but don't forget that it isn't just the amount of screentime Athena gets, but also the number of roles she gets. Plus the entire plot is wrapped around her--even if some other characters are also connected.

(Also, I'm not sure why you're so sure that if Athena hadn't been introduced, GS5 would have had to just have Nick and Trucy without Polly. Tbh, I think I would've wanted GS5 to be AJ2; Polly and Trucy are my favorite lawyer-assistant pair.)

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Thanks ^^


I see what you mean, I guess it's because I saw it in the same way Toph's earthbending is explained in Avatar and Voice of the heart literally meant that. I understood it as hearing the heartbeat of people which can tell a lot of a person's feelings and crossing it with the tone of the voice. Since I didn't consider it as any magic I didn't see any point in explain it...
But As I've seen it written that was partly what Metis was working on as ...urgh I can't read the name of the robots could do the same with Thena when she was little. And she was working for the government. Only 7 years passed since her mother died and she probably kept one or two secrets concerning this technology to herself so Aura might not have completed the 'experience' yet. It could also be considered too dangerous and as such leave it at that. Also I can't exactly remember but did Aura even know about Widget ? Because that could explain a lot...


Really ? Because that's what it seemed in the first pages...Oups
Well I've seen it happen to one of my friends (granted her dad died when she was 9 and wasn't murdered), but by the time she got her psychology degree just before taking the SATs, she was 18. She didn't skip any grade but in high school she chose to study psychology like kids chose a club. So I can easily see Athena who didn't want Simon to say in Prison longer than necessary working extra hard to help him (and even better if it could help her forget the pain).
I think they decided to use someone like her as a protagonist was because of Apollo and Phoenix. They are quite the opposite of each other and they would need a more how should I say...outgoing ? Maybe just some fresh blood to help them. Apollo need someone from the same field looking up to him because he's very insecure but still counterbalance his seriousness and boost him a little. As for Phoenix the forged evidence strained the trust Apollo had in him and as such his relationship with him. A new person needed to come to the WAA to try and balance things out so as to not change [too much] the already established relationships. And Athena is ideal in that she's young enough to be naive about Phoenix, to look up to both yet having her own thing so that she wouldn't be useless. It allows Phoenix to be able to protect someone who isn't Trucy (he's the protector type), because Apollo is an adult and though he does need the support, not only is he not used to getting it but his strained vision of Phoenix doesn't help. And Athena is perfect for that because he wants to be able to protect Apollo but since he won't let him he needs to transfer it. Because Trucy seems to be pretty independant and probably won't let him smother her.


Well I didn't see it that way. I felt that her personality clicked pretty well with Apollo's and Phoenix which is pretty useful since they're supposed to be working together. But I didn't feel like anybody actually adored her. The fact that she has an outgoing and happy personality (at least on the outside), usually makes people at ease or at least help when it comes to communication. That added to her knowledge in psychology which, when she does feel like using it help, not manipulate but at least understand how to act with those people. So to me it seemed more like people reacting to her personality by being nice themselves than actually adoring her. The only people who might have adored her are Metis and Simon. Phoenix probably has a fondness for her too but that's it. The fact that she a young woman/girl might also help in people being nicer to her.


Well I felt that her plot was actually just a way to develop Apollo by having him doubt a friend because he's the one who actually benefited from the part of her getting accused in itself as far as character development goes. I mean of course it helped her character to know the identity of the phantom or to learn that her mother but it didn't serve as character development as much as cementing her friendship with Apollo.


Because at the end of AJ it's obvious that Apollo doesn't have the same vision of his work as Phoenix does. While Phoenix Believes his client first and foremost Apollo doesn't work that way and his personal history shows every reason as to why he's not the trusting kind. And this fundamental point (which has been played in GS5) that was addressed by the end of AJ, well not exactly this point but they did kind of foreshadow that there was some point where Apollo and Phoenix would drastically disagree which mean a rupture point in what at the time was a really precary relationship. and that would be part of Apollo's development because he has obviously been alone for a long time to the point that by end of AJ the only people he actually really trust were Clay and Trucy. And the poor boy didn't undergo that much development by that time (except getting betrayed by half the people he trusted you know...). So whatever happened in GS5 would have to deal with Clay and Trucy. But whatever happened Apollo would feel the need to leave by himself for some time anyway because he's been by himself most of his life and the recent betrayal of Kristoph and Phoenix probably still weigh on his mind (as shown by how he lives in GS5). And this would lead to phoenix being the only lawyer in the WAA. Well that's how I see it anyway...

It's certainly not ordinary, but it is within the realm of reality. (World Guinness records may not be so accurate a source, but the fact that they publish stories of strong men capable of seemingly impossible feats suggests there's some truth to them. Adrenaline is an amazing hormone.) Since Ace Attorney has always been about taking the ordinary and mundane, and exaggerating them to the point of ridiculosity and beyond, we could very well have a Luchador, who flaunts his mighty strength among other things, become a witness to a crime.

At first, it seems to be just a joke. Then, by the end of the case, he proves his point by - you guessed it - lifting a car above his head. Grand Prix entries again, anyone?


This is still the one thing we can agree on. Introducing a new protagonist - no matter how he/she is - at this interval in the timeline is awkward. If she had been introduced before Apollo, she certainly would get her share of the hatedom, but it wouldn't be as controversial as it is now. Then, if Apollo had been introduced in the game after hers, and I'm sure Apollo would have become a "Phoenix ripoff" who lacks a complete story.

Well, now that they've both been introduced, their development as members of the Wright Anything Agency can flourish together. They might as well; at this point, if Apollo got a sequel pertaining only to him and Trucy, it makes GS5 seem pointless as canon - despite it being the introduction of the series to many new players.

I really want that Apollo Justice 2, but thinking it over, the most important aspect from GS4 to keep for continuity was the Jurist System.


Do you mean Ponco and Ponta? :3

I doubt Aura didn't know about Widget; Athena carried him everywhere. It's possible she didn't know how to reproduce Widget, though. I don't think Metis told anyone, so something like Widget will have to be unique for now.


I agree that her role as an assistant has been done well, but it's one thing to not be useless; it's another to be too useful. One way or another, Athena jumps into cross-examinations with Widget. Whether or not they really need her, I can still question. In any case, she'll have to remain with the WAA crew simply because of game mechanics, rather than her actual roles in upcoming games. (Same with Kay; the poor girls are victims of poor character integration.)


Actually, it simply cemented her place in the WAA crew above anything else. We already knew Apollo isn't one to blindly follow others, and yet, he's still the same indecisive kid as he was in his own game. What we see of him while he's investigating on his own comes about to "I don't know yet." He didn't put up much of a fight when Phoenix bulldozed his arguments flat.


I think you've missed the bit where Apollo went from being dragged into the agency to coming to the office everyday because he actually wants to. Remember how case 5-2 started? "I came early because Mr. Wright said he had a job for me to do." Well, it turned out that the job wasn't what he wanted, but he came eagerly without knowing what it was.

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Aww man a fresh Athena debate started and I missed the start Guess I'll just wait for a point to jump in.

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Hm, hearing the heartbeat would certainly be interesting. However, I still don't think it's enough; I don't think there's really a way to explain the extent Athena's power goes to except through "magic." I also don't think it was the "result" of Metis' research; Athena could do it to a certain extent even when she was little.


I can't deny that the arguments haven't been tempered by a dozen pages of debating xP
Honestly, I feel like Trucy is outgoing enough on her own to balance out WAA.


Fine, fine, people are generally nice to Athena. But compare that to most of the witnesses in the previous games. As soon as they see your badge, getting information from them is like pulling teeth.


Maybe it would fit in with the tone of the case -- but would it still be realistic?

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I'm kind of sick of "everyone adoring Athena" argument here in this discussion. Who liked Athena outside of Themis Trio and Wright Anything Agency? What's more, Myriam and Aura outright hated or disliked her. This to me seem like the point taken out of nowhere.

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Well, I suppose we'd need to define what can be considered "realistic". The standards of the real world are tough. A baseless claim, if not challenged, naturally withers and dies if it doesn't gain enough support. The standards of AA-verse... no, I can't define them. They encompass anything that has even the thinnest sliver of plausibility in our world, and sometimes even none at all. In comparison, the concepts of a mind-reading device and a recessive gene that produces heightened hearing sensitivity and quality no longer seem so farfetched.

Never mind how Phoenix survived a 50-foot drop into icy raging waters and was somehow fetched out before he could suffer symptoms of hypothermia, dislocated joints, or even pneumonia. The police would have taken at least 15 or so minutes to arrive at Hazakura. I mean, there was Larry around, but he's not the Luchador I was talking about. He shouldn't be able to pull a fully-soaked adult from a raging river without being dragged in. This is the same river where people and things are washed away and lost forever. (Granted, Phoenix can always be reborn after death, so... wait, wrong Phoenix.)

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YES THEM !
I can't figure out why I can never remember their name...
This seems plausible and works with the way things turned up in GS5.


I hope they'll find a way to make her more useful. But she was, in a way. Just like Apollo's tricks weren't exactly needed when we already had Phoenix's psyche locks but the idea was still a nice adjustment. I feel like it was a way to ease the gameplay by using different lawyers and as such different gameplay which allow the gamer to play without getting tired of the characters[/quote]


He didn't want to be right which is why he asked phoenix to destroy his reasoning, and this is why I feel like it was development for Apollo because not only did it end up restoring his faith in Phoenix but it also made him ask for help. Which is not in his character. Because he was clearly dependant of Clay, he never realized that he could actually get attached to other people. He literally used to trust only clay and then Kristoph, Phoenix and Trucy. Two of them betrayed him which clearly shattered his already faint faith in people so seeing him depend on Wright to prove that he was wrong because despite all his doubts he still believe in Athena and he realized it, that is what I call big character development.


Oh I didn't miss it but that didn't mean that his trust in Phoenix had been restored, just that he was understanding where he came from. He did live the agency because he felt he and phoenix didn't seek the same truth which, when you think about it is a weird though in itself, a truth is by nature absolute. It shows that, at least deep down, he still didn't trust Wright. That doesn't change the fact that Phoenix was an amazing attorney in his days and that he still liked the man and was very close to Trucy and at the end of the day Apollo is an attorney and as such he had every reason to enjoy himself but that doesn't change that he had witness a very dark side of his childhood hero who used him and forged evidence for him to use in court which, if found out would have had him disbarred. And for someone with as obvious Trust issues as Apollo, it's not easily overcome. Forgiven maybe but neither forgotten nor overcomed. It only was when he realised that Phoenix would be the 'only one' who would help him clear his doubt and find the true assassin.


Oh no I think it was pretty clear that Metis' research actually calmed Athena's abilities (the whole pronciple of her headphones). It's just that I have no problem believing that the staff would amplify a normal illness just to fit their story and as I said it might just be a matter of perspective because my first time playing the series I played all the games without actual breaks and overall it's one of the least weird thing after Two games of Phoenix's psyche locke.
As for Metis' research, she could have easily been working on a machine that could read the adversary's emotions as a way of getting information in the army (afterwards it would really depend on the staff's position on the is it possible to read though or can we just read emotions and guess thoughts from that)


This is why I put 'from his field' it's nice and all to have people rooting for you, but being seen by the 'younger generation [of people who passed the bar exam aka are to be professionals]' is a whole other thing. It probably gave him a feeling of actual recognition as a lawyer. Athena is clearly Apollo's protegée and not PHoenix's. He IS their mentor but the WAA Hierarchy goes Phoenix -> Apollo -> Athena and not Phoenix -> Apollo & Athena. And this is important. SHe's placing herself into his hands just like he placed himself into Kristoph and then Phoenix's hand until he was betrayed. And this is something that couldn't happen with Trucy. Athena depends on him and even though they become an actual team of two lawyers (almost equals if not for Apollo's obvious experience and cool head), she's still someone he has to 'protect'. By the end of the game he is the one who betrayed her which weighs doubly over his head. I also admit that though I liked Trucy, the dynamic between her and Apollo didn't really work because she made him look like an idiot when he was the one who passed the bar exam and it's more a matter of gameplay than anything else, because Trucy is the one character of AJ Apollo actually trust as a friend which makes him leaving WAA all the more heartbreaking. But is also why I would have greatly minded had it also been Trucy Apollo 'team' (because they wouldn't be one).


Well it might also be because Phoenix and Apollo easily dismiss other people's nonsense (even more so for apollo since he's very reserved and mainly speaks in sarcasm which doesn't always attract sympathy...Believe me). Also as Sligneris says, the main actually 'friendly' people come from Themis academy and Athena so happens to be a childhood friend of a very liked person. So they'd obviously be at least 'politely friendly' with her.

Cutting down to just the parts that are actually related to Athena... (You have interesting views, but... I don't really feel like discussing the rest of that stuff here xP)


Psyche-locks are weird, but at least we know where they come from and (sort of) how they work >_>


Okay that's all nice, but it's not like Athena had to be introduced or else WAA would've been all out of whack; in the alternate universe where GS5 was AJ2, it could have functioned perfectly fine with just the trio of Polly, Trucy, and Nick.


Don't forget the people at Nine Tail Vale, and Starbuck, and the aquarium staff... (Let's also not forget that Simon was willing to throw away his entire life for her.)

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Wright Anything Agency would lose as much by lack of Athena, as it would with lack of Apollo, the way I see it. After all, we could stick with just Phoenix, Trucy, Pearl and Maya. In the alternate universe where GS4 is PW4, there's even no Trucy. And she doesn't have to be there. I'm not sure what you were going to claim here, BP.

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So alternate universes are valid evidence now?

Nope don't buy it, Apollo still has plenty of plot arcs to go on that they could make another game featuring Apollo and Trucy as the main Duo with Phoenix as a mentor.

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This may not be the thread for it, but I'd like to clarify something. Apollo's distrust of Phoenix ended with the resolution of 4-4. It was never really "distrust" to begin with; he was suspicious of Phoenix's past and present, but they were eventually cleared up, and by his own words too. By the start of GS5, Apollo had no reason to distrust Phoenix's judgment... just as he so easily came to trust Trucy.

Incidentally, it was never once stated or even implied that Apollo has a dark, brooding past. Though his friendship with Clay may not show much, at the very least, it reveals young Apollo wasn't the unsocial troublemaker fans had previously envisioned him to be. He may have been an orphan, but it was never made clear whether he spent his days at an orphanage or with a foster family - whose surname could be "Justice".


Nah, it's mainly because Phoenix and Apollo both are butt-monkeys of some crude jokes one way or another. Capcom wouldn't dare to do so with a lovely maiden like Athena. It's why she fits the role of assistant more than that of protagonist. Plus, people are generally nicer to young ladies who happen to be assistants to the lawyers.


At least there was someone researching into Athena's abilities - meaning that it's something that can be researched through scientific means, despite how unscientific it seems. We may never understand how Pearl charges the Magatama, since it's not important enough a detail to squeeze into any particular case. Likewise with Apollo's hypersensitive tell-spotting. All we can assume from it is, he tenses up whenever he senses unease in someone else, and that gives the illusion that his bracelet shrinks.


But all we ever saw of the people at Nine-tales Vale was from that one scene when the Great Nine-tails popped in for a performance before the murder took place. :3 Meanwhile, the aquarium staff are supposed to be nice to everyone... except for Herman and naturally, the penguins.

That one police officer wasn't a resident of the vale, but I doubt he and his fellow officers are going to be nice to Athena later on. ;p


I would agree with this if GS4 was supposed to be PW4. However, this series was destined to take a different turn. It just stumbled along the way.

I would also agree with it if GS5's timeline came before GS4's. Then, we'd have less people complaining about Athena and more complaining about Apollo and Klavier... ah, wait, that doesn't fix things.

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The invalidity my claim is exactly the point here. "It wasn't necessary" is not equal to "it was bad decision, they shouldn't do it (I don't like it, by the way)". Just like Athena wasn't necessary, so wasn't Apollo. But both were introduced and it turned out for the better. But it doesn't help that so far, every single complaint I read is something like that. Some far-fetched claims taken literally from nowhere. Like I mentioned - finding problems not because they are troublesome, but because you look for them. That's pretty much what this debate became.

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I've been seeing you say this for a while now (Athena becoming a lawyer 6 years early compared to 24), and I've been wondering the whole time. As far as I know the games don't specify the normal age to become an attorney. (And considering how Phoenix studied, I think there's little chance he became a lawyer at the normal age).
You said a while ago that the first game mentioned that Edgeworth became a prosecutor 4 years early, but all I could find was a mention that he became a prosecutor "4 years ago".

Maybe you were thinking about a different line, in which case I would really appreciate if you could tell me where exactly in the games this is specified.

...Wait, you seriously kept discussing Athena's character for 14 pages? All the time, with posts long like these above?

That's... pretty amazing.

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"Realistic" goes by the standards of our world, not the AA-verse xP Straight-up lifting a car is unrealistic; I don't think there's anybody alive strong enough to actually do that. (And even if there is, you can just replace the car in my example with an even heavier object.)

A mind reading device is absolutely insane. In sci-fi or whatever, there's no reason you can't have one, but... the way it's done in AA, where it is possessed by a single random Japanese teenager, is incredibly stupid. If mind reading technology like that actually existed, it would totally revolutionize society. (And no, the argument "Metis worked on/made Widget in secret!" doesn't work. Widget is a portable remote mind reading device. Before something like that was made, even if they weren't big, direct, physical devices that need to plug into your brain or something would need to be created. That technology alone would revolutionize the world. And I can't possibly imagine Metis secretly creating and perfecting that technology alone too.)

There's also nothing wrong with sensitive hearing in itself. The problem is how Athena can magically know people's emotions. And while Athena's powers aren't the only piece of "magic" in the AA-verse, it's the only one without any sort of explanation of how it works or where it came from.

(Note that there's two parts to my argument: that Athena's powers are unrealistic, and that they are poorly done. Some people brought up IRL sensitive hearing to argue that Athena's powers are realistic; the car-lifting example is to try to parallel is to try to demonstrate how something can be unrealistic, even if it is based on and similar to something IRL. The "poorly done" part is then the fact that we get no explanation for it.)


Well, Dahlia survived the drop, too. Maybe Eagle River just isn't as deadly as people believe xP
(What if people don't actually commit suicide in Eagle River, but rather use it when they need/want to start a new life for whatever reason? That would explain why the bodies are never found... Because they aren't in Eagle River at all!)


The point is that from the way Sweet-Tsubaki is talking about it, GS5 just wouldn't function at all without Athena, and the character dynamic of Nick/Trucy/Polly would become irreparably destroyed, which... is not something I find particularly believable xP
(And you're right--in the alternate universe where GS4 is PW4, Nick gets by just fine without Polly.)


Except we never get any information that was obtained from the research or anything. Even if Athena's power may have been realistic, we still have the least information about it out of all the lawyer powers.
(PS: The first time I read that sentence, I thought you meant "At least someone [at Capcom] put research into making Athena's abilities" xD)


Darn, you caught me. When I played the game, I actually loved Athena. However, afterwards, I arbitrarily decided to hate her, and went back to look for things I could complain about. The things I'm talking about definitely didn't pop out and bother me while I was playing. It's amazing how you know my own thought processes better than I do.


Hmm... I've always thought that 24 was the normal age. Eh, could be wrong. After a quick search myself, the only other thing I could find was:
* * -Phoenix
* * (He hasn't lost a case since
* * he became prosecutor at the
* * incredibly young age of 20.)
If the "normal age" was something like 22, I don't think 20 would qualify as "incredibly young." Plus, you brought up the way Nick studied, but... I don't think it really impacted him. Sure, he was a literature major (or something) initially, but I think he had also been taking some law classes, and so presumably he was able to change to a legal major without much trouble. (After all, the reason he was at the courthouse in 3-1 at all was because he was studying law on the side.)

AA is really supposed to take place in Japan, and while I couldn't find the "normal" age to become an attorney in Japan, after some quick research (Wikipedia ^^") is seems that you need to pass the bar exam and then do a year of internships. In 3-1, Nick was 21 in his third year of college. So he graduates at 22, then a year for the bar exam to 23, then a year of internships (presumably under Mia) for 24, and... there ya go.

Mia's first trial (3-4) took place when she was 23, so I think 23-24 is the normal age. Even if it "is" 23, having Athena skip five years instead of six is really not much better for me.

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...What's wrong with me that for a second here, I thought you were serious?

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BP can you clarify if there's any actual new reasons to like Athena's character more or justify her boons brought up in your debate?

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Is here anything to debate about here, actually? Some people here enjoyed Athena's character, some didn't. I can understand character essays, but I don't get what's the point of discussing something as subjective as whether the character is a bad one or a good one. <.<

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Darn. :3


Well, Athena did call herself the "Revolutionnaire". Perhaps society hadn't yet heard the news, since the government covered up pretty much everything about Metis Cykes and her research.

If you take another look at the screenshots of young Athena, you can see that she doesn't yet have Widget on her personnel. Then, after her mother's death, she at some point acquired hold of him before she was sent overseas, and people were none the wiser for those seven years. What I'd like to know is, how did she know how to use Widget? Did she put him on and he suddenly talks to her? Thinking about it, even if she isn't an android, she could still have a microscopic communicative device implanted in her brain... haha, when did that ever happen? Then, I have to wonder why Athena didn't want to reveal it to the world until she became a lawyer.


What a way to ruin oral traditions.

Still, when Dahlia dropped into the river, it wasn't winter. The river wouldn't have been so cold, so as long as she could avoid the bank, she'd be fine. Sure, Hazakura may have snow all year long, but the worst of times are during the winter. (By the way, was it ever stated whether that diamond was heavy? It looked pretty big, so it would have been extra weight. Now, I can believe that she's actually stronger than she looks, but would she be stronger than any of the people who were washed away?)


True, there wasn't enough info about it, and Athena never bothered to explain it because apparently, no one asked.

Seriously, not one person questioned how she could have that power. Is this supposed to suggest that she's not a unique case after all? After all, some questioned what the heck Widget was supposed to be, but when she casually mentioned that she can hear people's voices in their hearts, no one bat an eye.

Capcom does need to put more research into her abilities if they expect them to make sense. ;3

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Athena has a mind-reading device, Trucy and Maya have a mind-reading selves. Your point being? :3

Hahaha, just kidding xD

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I'd presume Athena inherited it in her mother's will. Also Athena says she barely understands how it works anyway which is ridiculous for such a complex piece of machinery. For all we know it could have wifi, produce coffee, and transmit brainwashing images to the brain but Athena only has a tiny grasp of it's functions. If I had to say a reason, since I assume it didn't come with a manual being a one-of-a-kind device, I'd say it probably has a vocal tutorial once it 'attunes' to it's wearer. Perhaps if it was made specially for Athena it would even be personalised for her and contain some loving last message from her mother but hey that's wishful thinking that they never explain.



*Shrugs* Phoenix surviving is amazing yes but Phoenix is established as pretty indestructable by this point. Is it said that Eagle River is used for suicides anywhere? Presumably if someone jumped from the bridge intending to die...well it would become a self-fulfilling prophecy as they wouldn't be trying to swim to safety.



Yep they explain it's just something she has, no reason or rhyme to it. It can be controlled somehow with specially designed headphones which throws me off. I mean it could be auditory based because headphones block noise, but it's the fact she needs specially designed headphones that implies it might be something more than just sound waves for me.

Also:

Totally right man, but some people are unsure on some things or take offence at hearing pro-Thena or Anti-Thena stuff elsewhere so this thread exists as a place where we can sort of vent and discuss that to understand each other's ideas and refine our opinions.

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Now that I think about it... was this Capcom's plan all along - to introduce an all-purpose machine to which they could add various applications and insert new game mechanics just like that? Athena would not only revolutionize the courts; she'd conquer them through brain-washing and rule them with an iron grip. No criminal would be safe, but lawyers everywhere would be out of jobs.

THIS SERIES IS RUINED FOREVER. AAAAAAAAAAUUUGGHHHHH...


Nope, it was never stated, but I suppose that could be a reasonable implication.

Ah, well. It's already been shown time and time again that whoever holds a namesake with origins in mythical lore, such a character can't possibly die from anything beside old age. Phoenix (nervously) laughs in the face of death. Those IVs Apollo took aren't OP; Apollo himself is. And Athena... well, she has yet to meet with a serious injury, but I can guarantee, without a doubt, that she will not die any time soon.

This series has taken a turn for the fantastic, in more ways than one.


But we aren't discussing whether she is a "bad" or "good" one. We're discussing implications given from what has been provided to describe her character. :3 Some theories are simply more serious than others.

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The possibility Athena is an android totally not serious yet a totally plausible theory XD

Though yeah I think it's more just to understand other people's opinions on Athena and if they like make it clear my problems with her, perhaps they'll convince me otherwise about her.

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I don't think they made Athena 18 to show how young and smart and amazing she is. I think they wanted her to be involved in the UR-1 incident (which had to take place after Phoenix lost his badge) but be young enough during it so it was extra tragic (and creepy when she said, "I'm taking my Mom apart to fix her!"). If she was thirteen, it wouldn't have been as unsettling. So, to make the age fit, they made her 18. I don't think the writers thought people would make a big deal about it considering Franziska was THIRTEEN and Klavier was seventeen.

As for her degree in psychology, I imagine it couldn't be that difficult for her considering her ability. I also don't think everyone LOVED Athena. On the flip side of the coin, who hates Apollo? Olga?

I don't think it was the intention of the writers to make her perfect (which she isn't since she had two nervous breakdowns while defending someone) and super smart. I think they just wanted to do the Mood Matrix idea so they made a lawyer who knew psychology and she happened to be young to fit in with the UR-1 incident. People then blew it out of proportion

As for what I think of her? She's fine. I didn't mind her and I liked playing as her more than Mia. As an assistant, I like her better than Maya. I do wish we had more variety with the assistants throughout the game. I definitely didn't want Athena in every case. That's about my only complaint of her (and her VA in the cutscenes)

That's a fair idea to show what the writers were thinking, but she hardly had to be in it at all if that was the case, only for the finale though it wouldn't be quite as touching since she'd be a character only associated with that case and like it or not, her coming off as smart and amazing is a side effect of her young age.



That's right, Franziska had achieved it by the tender age of thirteen. She also had a father who knew the Justice System inside and out, was filthy rich and had massive amounts of influence in the legal world. Klavier was born in Germany where education is fast-tracked and has a brother in the legal world who also is pretty well renowned. Even then he barely beats Athena to the punch and doesn't have a Psychology degree to go with it. Athena has...nothing at all to suggest she could fast-track her education in law.

Also while they spend an indeterminate amount of time getting those achievements, Athena spends explicitly 7 years getting everything. So don't think of it as Franny and Klavier accomplishing something really early. Think of them accomplishing it in 13 years...and 17 years...then Athena seems even more out of place.



What ability? Her use of "psychology" is vague and questionable at best. She wasn't a particularly remarkable student (least it wasn't mentioned she was particularly smart. She had poor attendance due to her medical condition, her mother certainly didn't teach her psychology (since Athena felt her mother neglected her and spent no time with her) so there's no evidence of any special ability. Besides people didn't believe her on the stand why would a University Head agree to take on a little girl because she claims "I can hear the voices of the heart!", hell at that age she probably didn't even know how her power 'related' to psychology.



Probably, though I don't think people blew it out of proportion. Her character is pretty rushed and forced upon us probably in part because of the Mood matrix but people are right to be irritated at her when she leaves so much unexplained and has so much under her belt.

As for whether shes a Sue because she has breakdowns or not? Nah Sue's can be vulnerable, the point is everyone wants to be there to support them when they feel weak. I'd guess Apollo overcomes this but I'd say that's more to Apollo's good writing rather than Athena's character though especially since he's portrayed as being pretty 'villainous' at the time.

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Hmm... To be honest, I never saw that as a problem, myself. I think we're taking things a little bit too much the hard way. I mean, it's work of fiction, and Japanese at that, right? Some lines here can and will be crossed.

I believe the important part here is her backstory, which is... quite something, and the fact she is a lawyer that goes along well with the already established part of WAA. That's the only way it is. She was 11, so she had plenty of time to put her act together, right?

But if we're to put it that way... You mention relatives with influence, but didn't Athena have Phoenix as well, if I recall correctly...? You know, the man who even disbarred had so much influence that he could introduce a new legal system to an entire nation and be in charge of its test trial...

I would go ahead and say that Kristoph helping Klavier is just about as much of a speculation as Phoenix helping Athena...? I don't know, just my two cents.

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This, basically. Rereading through past entries in the official site blog reminded me of how straightforward the structure of her character was. They took a lot more time with her art design, Widget and the Mood Matrix.


Well, the blogs (including the Japanese-only ones) don't explain that much either, so I assume they couldn't have expected such a controversy around their new addition. Besides, they must be building up for a sequel. The fact that she left so much unexplained only demands that she return in the next game.

On another note, Athena totally runs a Mac:

Meh I prefer PC If she didn't have wi-fi on Widget, I wouldn't know how he could access legal documents and stuff in the Court Record, or her mail, of course.


We don't know when Athena started to recover her academic performance, given her formerly poor attendance record, but since she was able to skip a few grades at some point, that does suggest quite some talent. Nonetheless, skipping a few grades in junior or senior high is one thing; skipping a few grades in a prestigious university is a bit much - is what I hear people argue.

I still believe that she never got a psychology degree. Certainly, her not being a licensed psychologist is another matter, but nothing actually indicates that she got a psych degree in the first place. She could have done self-study for all we know and applied the knowledge to her "counseling techniques" of angrily shouting at her interviewees.


It's assumed that by the time they met, it was pretty recent - that is, she already got her degree and badge. Phoenix went off to Germerica for a bit, at some point met Athena, and recruited her. He's a mentor figure to Apollo and Athena, but he's not the one who actually taught them what they knew about law.

Besides, it's hinted that the entire Jurist test trial was set up by Chief Prosecutor Edgeworth, naturally. He's also the one Phoenix thanks for getting back his badge.

...I'm saddened by the lack of a glasses!Edgeworth smiley.

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She was wearing a little bag, though. Widget could have been inside.


You know, I actually considered that before. That's the best way I could find to explain how Widget could read Athena's mind, and why it only works with Athena (at least we know it doesn't work with Filch). The chip could have been implanted as part of Metis's research or something like that.


Are you sure? I don't think the game tells when exactly the kidnapping took place, but if it was exactly 5 years before 3-4, it would have been in winter.


I don't think so. If he was born in Germany it would be more logical if he started his career there, like Franziska. Plus there's the line I quoted a few pages ago.


What are those icons for anyway? The 3rd one is the Mood Matrix and the 4th one is an email program. Since Widget can be used to read documents I guess the 5th one can be an Internet browser. So what about the first 2 icons? The first one looks like a flying saucer to me... ATHENA IS AN ALIEN


But in 5-5, they say Edgeworth has been chief prosecutor for less than a year, so he couldn't have been chief prosecutor during 4-4. Unless you're implying that Edgeworth set up the jury system even while being just a prosecutor? (When is it hinted, by the way?)

More logical sure but his name is German, he speaks with German dialect, his brother also has a German name. He got his badge early in Germany, that's enough for me.

What's the line you quoted though?



Oh is it said she skipped a few grades in her school? Whereabouts? She was the classmate and same age as Juniper so I guess Juniper must've skipped a few too.



All we know is that Phoenix inspired her (though supposedly Blackquill did as well), that's all. Not that he'd go pulling strings for some random girl, or would even have the influence to (considering him being a part of the 'dark age of the law') there's nothing to really say he could fast-track her with his influence.

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No way, she obviously tossed it out the lab window left it on the table where we couldn't see it.

*ahem*... I know Widget was around somewhere. It makes sense for Athena to have kept him with her as a keepsake when she left with her relatives. When she actually learned how to use Widget aside from his automatic mind-reading tech, who knows?


But they didn't say it was "exactly" 5 years ago, or even "almost". Since the timeline in each game fits neatly, for the most part, into a single year, "5 years ago" could refer to any month in the year 2013... last year.

... (´・ω・`)? Say, I think I heard some report about a defense attorney poisoning case then too. Poor guy.


It reminds me of Space Invaders. It is Space Invaders, isn't it? Tell me it's Space Invaders. I can't believe it's anything but Space Invaders. Namco no longer has a patent on it; it has to be Space Invaders.

Athena once played video games during investigations, but then Wright had to confiscate it. He only then let her use it when they're in a trial session. The one time we see her using it outside of court, Phoenix wasn't around. Head-canon'd. :)

I dunno what that second icon is for, but it looks artsy... Something like GIMP? Photoshop? SAI? MS Paint?


Since the Jurist System was never once mentioned in GS5, I have no official sources to pull up.

But consider this: what was he doing for those six years since Phoenix was disbarred? How could Phoenix, an infamous attorney disbarred for forging evidence, end up as the chairman of a committee designed to rewrite the history of the courts? Why would Phoenix bother going overseas to Germerica some time before GS5 and end up meeting with Athena in the first place? Why does he thank Edgeworth for getting back his badge by making the acquirement process exceedingly simple, while we had heard nothing of him during 4-4?

All these points may seem disconnected for now, but they do seem to foreshadow movement in the background toward a certain goal. It's why I can envision the theme of the next game to feature "revolution and reform". We already have a new character introduced in this game about revolutionizing the courts. We even had a change of Chief Prosecutors, and this one seems more promising than the last. I do believe the Jurist System still has a chance to return.


Athena said it herself when she introduced herself to Apollo. She didn't say which school she was talking about. Later, she introduced Juniper to him and Phoenix as a childhood friend and classmate. Naturally, at one point, she and Athena were in the same class and grade. Then, Athena took off through hyperspace and folded reality by a few years, so she could exist in the same class as Juniper, but still take classes several grades higher. Widget is an all-purpose machine, so why not :P

Or, maybe it's a plot hole induced by the localization. The Japanese script doesn't mention her skipping grades. Then again, it says she passed the bar in America without any reason why she should have. Either way, she managed to achieve something that's unexpected, bordering on what-the-fudge, but apparently not worth questioning. Hey, that's another for the Cough Up thread!

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I think our opinion on Phoenix vary...

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Well care to elaborate? :P

Look I'm not saying Phoenix wouldn't go to such lengths for somebody but we're given no indication of whether he did or not since so much of Athena's past is unexplained. If they'd considered it an option there's no reason they wouldn't say, especially since Athena's past is so sketchy without some support.

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Well, too bad the dialogue went something like:

Apollo: "How long do you know each other?"
Phoenix: "Well, I met her during one of my trips to Europe..."

Phoenix, master of dodging questions.

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Yep, the fact they leave so much about Athena unexplained is exactly the problem a lotta folks have with her.

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Here.
Besides, they don't have American names in the Japanese version.


Hum, I was under the impression that Edgeworth helped Phoenix get his badge back because he wanted Phoenix to help clear Blackquill's name. Wasn't it Edgeworth who convinced Phoenix to become a lawyer again?

... I'm not sure what your point is actually. My point was that Edgeworth wasn't chief prosecutor during AJ, so he couldn't have been involved in the jury system, unless he did so without being chief prosecutor.


OBJECTION!

She does mentions that she skipped grades while in America (which is similar to what she says in the English version).

Quick reply because work is imminent.



Franny's Japanese name is Mei Karuma that's hardly American now is it? Means nothing that they don't have American names.

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Yes but it is explicitly stated that Mei/Franziska was born and raised in America, plus she started her career there. It can be assumed that she has a Japanese name because she has a Japanese father or parents.
On the other hand I see no reason to believe the Gavins were born in America/Germany. The fact that Klavier passed the bar exam overseas doesn't mean much when Athena did the same thing, plus he studied at Themis.

Saying that "Klavier" is German name is also wrong. Mostly because that name just doesn't exist irl. Hell, even "Kristoph" doesn't really exist.

Using that as evidence they're German... It doesn't work well.

Was Mei not German, though? I heard something that Karumas are from Germany, but work in America...?

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