GS6 Ideas : Kingdom of Khura'in (GS6)

Re: GS6 Ideas

Mon Jul 07, 2014 3:48 am

Rubia Ryu the Royal

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Ya know, we might as well kill off everyone from GS1 and call it a series conclusion in that case.

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Re: GS6 Ideas

Mon Jul 07, 2014 3:57 am

Pierre

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Not enough series end with "And then the nukes started flying and every character in the series died ending it all."

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Re: GS6 Ideas

Mon Jul 07, 2014 4:01 am

Rubia Ryu the Royal

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But ya know, this man does speak some truth.

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Last edited by Rubia Ryu the Royal on Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:35 am, edited 2 times in total.

Re: GS6 Ideas

Mon Jul 07, 2014 4:37 am

JesusMonroe

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sumguy28 wrote:

Yes I know Dahlia happened, but did the court ever actually accept any of her testimony?

(Sorry for replying again but you edited after I responded)

The court did accept Dahlia's testimony. In fact, her testimony was the reason the trial continued after the exorcism (Godot showed that we didn't know who the murderer was yet)

Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:

Actually, the main problem with killing off Maya is ~~DoMaya's wrath~~ the fact that Pearl would be the only viable spirit medium left in the series. We would never have a duet of Abbott and Costello ever again.

Well, these are suggestions for the final case so we wouldn't get to see the duet again either way. If she was killed in the next game, though, we'd just need another spirit medium character (perhaps one who doesn't know the Kurain technique) who can show up and channel Maya

Quote:

Ahem. I mean, it'd be hard to pull off as a genuinely noble sacrifice. Her death would have deep emotional investment to us fans, but to the series itself, it'll be pretty pointless. She just "disappears" out of their lives, and leaves them all miserable, but who would grow from it? Phoenix and Maya grew from Mia's death. Franziska grew from her father's. Maya rightfully ascended to her duties after her mother's death. What's in it for the rest of the cast if Maya disappears? A bad ending where "the miracle never happen".

This is a good point and probably a good reason to not do it (unless it is in the final case)

Quote:

JM, your idea will also bring upon us unfair fan outrage. She came in with a judo throw and she will leave with a judo throw.

Yes, but nowhere near the amount of outrage that would occur if Maya died. People get pissed at 1-5. People get pissed at JFA. People get pissed at Godot. Peole get pissed at AJ. People get pissed at DD. People get pissed at Athena. People get pissed at the GK series and its characters. People get pissed at Yamazaki. People get pissed in AA and Yamazaki can't win (though I'm in no way saying this makes any criticisms against him invalid). If he killed Athena, people would call him spineless for caving to criticism. If he killed Maya...oh boy

Let me ask you this: There are two parallel universes where Maya dies in the exact same game. Not a single line of dialogue is different. The difference between the universes is that Takumi wrote one game and Yamazaki wrote the other. Do you think the criticism would be equally distributed between the two? That's what makes the fan outrage "unfair"

Though, none of this will probably ever happen. If a main AA character dies, it's probably gonna be Klavier

Re: GS6 Ideas

Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:28 am

Rubia Ryu the Royal

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JesusMonroe wrote:

Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:

Actually, the main problem with killing off Maya is ~~DoMaya's wrath~~ the fact that Pearl would be the only viable spirit medium left in the series. We would never have a duet of Abbott and Costello ever again.

Well, these are suggestions for the final case so we wouldn't get to see the duet again either way. If she was killed in the next game, though, we'd just need another spirit medium character (perhaps one who doesn't know the Kurain technique) who can show up and channel Maya

Aaaaaah... no. The last thing we need for a finale is for some random mystery in the form of another spirit medium pop in to say hi.

Quote:

Ahem. I mean, it'd be hard to pull off as a genuinely noble sacrifice. Her death would have deep emotional investment to us fans, but to the series itself, it'll be pretty pointless. She just "disappears" out of their lives, and leaves them all miserable, but who would grow from it? Phoenix and Maya grew from Mia's death. Franziska grew from her father's. Maya rightfully ascended to her duties after her mother's death. What's in it for the rest of the cast if Maya disappears? A bad ending where "the miracle never happen".

This is a good point and probably a good reason to not do it (unless it is in the final case)

Not even as a final case. The series has long stuck with ending their games happily. 1-4, party without Edgeworth. 1-5, not much, but Ema and Lana's reunion. 2-4, party without Franzy. 3-5, everyone at a terrible restaurant but there's Maggey. 4-4, Apollo and Trucy ~~ditch Nick~~ visit Vera and then they all go out for noodles. I-5, chillin' at Edgey's office and talkin' about Yatagarasu. I2-5, uh, about the same thing, actually. 5-5, party again, but with noodles. What's with all these party animals?

For GS6 to break the norm and kill off such a beloved character? First of all, that idea would be voted off before it could even make it on paper. Too many of Capcom's employees love Maya to let that happen.

Quote:

JM, your idea will also bring upon us unfair fan outrage. She came in with a judo throw and she will leave with a judo throw.

Yes, but nowhere near the amount of outrage that would occur if Maya died. People get pissed at 1-5. People get pissed at JFA. People get pissed at Godot. Peole get pissed at AJ. People get pissed at DD. People get pissed at Athena. People get pissed at the GK series and its characters. People get pissed at Yamazaki. People get pissed in AA and Yamazaki can't win (though I'm in no way saying this makes any criticisms against him invalid). If he killed Athena, people would call him spineless for caving to criticism. If he killed Maya...oh boy

Let me ask you this: There are two parallel universes where Maya dies in the exact same game. Not a single line of dialogue is different. The difference between the universes is that Takumi wrote one game and Yamazaki wrote the other. Do you think the criticism would be equally distributed between the two? That's what makes the fan outrage "unfair"

Even if they weren't equally distributed, it doesn't make it any less "unfair" either way.

Quote:

Though, none of this will probably ever happen. If a main AA character dies, it's probably gonna be Klavier

Only after Klavier realizes he's gone broke from all these gratuitous concert appearances without actually bring the band back together and getting paid for it.

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Re: GS6 Ideas

Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:12 am

Ash

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JesusMonroe wrote:

sumguy28 wrote:

If Engarde is still alive by then, then I'm declaring de Killer a failure of an assassin.

"Precisely. Human senses are easily deceived. Take the fellow in the cell next to me. Each night, he cries and screams about some ghost he thinks he sees. But in truth, it was simply the janitor. The janitor's deathly complexion and all-white attire are, no doubt, partially to blame. That and the fact that he constantly mutters about taking vengeance for this or that." - Simon Blackquill

Engarde's alive. You can call de Killer a failure of an assassin, but he actually might be doing this on purpose; keeping Engarde terrified every night, hoping for death, yet it never comes

I haven't played the English version, and I only played the Japanese version once, but according to Rubia's comparison of the original text vs the English text (here), it seems that that anecdote was just about an elderly lady and thus never intended to be an oblique reference to Koroshiya. (Also, did Rubia just skip over the part of "The janitor's deathly complexion and all-white attire are, no doubt, partially to blame. That and the fact that he constantly mutters about taking vengeance for this or that" because it was irrelevant here, or are there multiple versions of the text?)

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Re: GS6 Ideas

Mon Jul 07, 2014 12:35 pm

JesusMonroe

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Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:

Not even as a final case. The series has long stuck with ending their games happily. 1-4, party without Edgeworth. 1-5, not much, but Ema and Lana's reunion. 2-4, party without Franzy. 3-5, everyone at a terrible restaurant but there's Maggey. 4-4, Apollo and Trucy ~~ditch Nick~~ visit Vera and then they all go out for noodles. I-5, chillin' at Edgey's office and talkin' about Yatagarasu. I2-5, uh, about the same thing, actually. 5-5, party again, but with noodles. What's with all these party animals?

For GS6 to break the norm and kill off such a beloved character? First of all, that idea would be voted off before it could even make it on paper. Too many of Capcom's employees love Maya to let that happen.

Yes, but 1-2 and 3-5 had happy endings as well despite loved characters dying. Plus, writers on TV Shows kill off their favorite characters all the time. It's not hard to believe

I do think there's a universe where Maya can be killed off and it can be done well (though we probably don't live in one)

Quote:

Even if they weren't equally distributed, it doesn't make it any less "unfair" either way.

It does make it more unfair if people think a *bad* idea from one person is better than the same idea from another

Ash wrote:

I haven't played the English version, and I only played the Japanese version once, but according to Rubia's comparison of the original text vs the English text (here), it seems that that anecdote was just about an elderly lady and thus never intended to be an oblique reference to Koroshiya. (Also, did Rubia just skip over the part of "The janitor's deathly complexion and all-white attire are, no doubt, partially to blame. That and the fact that he constantly mutters about taking vengeance for this or that" because it was irrelevant here, or are there multiple versions of the text?)

De Killer can't disguise himself as a little old lady? He's been a bellboy, security guard, ice cream man, and crepe salesman before

I still like to believe that all of the prisoners Yugami mentions are actual felons we've met (the chef he mentions is Armstrong, for example. The ninja...I don't know). The cleaning lady taking vengeance on the cowardly prisoner could be Furio Tigre and Viola

Re: GS6 Ideas

Mon Jul 07, 2014 12:56 pm

Nearavex

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Viola leads a loan company now, I doubt she'd drop that job to go cleaning the prison.

Spoiler: GK2

And the ninja could be Kay. *shot*

Re: GS6 Ideas

Mon Jul 07, 2014 1:24 pm

JesusMonroe

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Nearavex wrote:

Viola leads a loan company now, I doubt she'd drop that job to go cleaning the prison.

Spoiler: GK2

And the ninja could be Kay. *shot*

Oh...your spoiler makes more sense for the chef. I didn't think about that (and it was about knives)

And the ninja was male. Plus, Simon is in a male prison

Re: GS6 Ideas

Mon Jul 07, 2014 1:45 pm

Nearavex

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~~Kay had a sex change.~~
I know, I was just messing around

Re: GS6 Ideas

Mon Jul 07, 2014 1:48 pm

Klonoahedgehog

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How about Larry making a comeback?

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Re: GS6 Ideas

Mon Jul 07, 2014 3:31 pm

Rubia Ryu the Royal

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Ash wrote:

I haven't played the English version, and I only played the Japanese version once, but according to Rubia's comparison of the original text vs the English text (here), it seems that that anecdote was just about an elderly lady and thus never intended to be an oblique reference to Koroshiya. (Also, did Rubia just skip over the part of "The janitor's deathly complexion and all-white attire are, no doubt, partially to blame. That and the fact that he constantly mutters about taking vengeance for this or that" because it was irrelevant here, or are there multiple versions of the text?)

I skipped over that bit because there was no Japanese equivalent. The gender of the janitor simply changed across localization.

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Re: GS6 Ideas

Mon Jul 07, 2014 3:40 pm

dimentiorules

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I think if there were a series finale, it could end with Phoenix retiring for good, and turning the Wright Anything Agency into the Justice and Co. Law Offices.

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Re: GS6 Ideas

Mon Jul 07, 2014 3:46 pm

Rubia Ryu the Royal

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And see Nick get drunk on grape juice again? Tempting.

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Re: GS6 Ideas

Wed Jul 09, 2014 12:49 am

Nearavex

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Nearavex wrote:

Redd White... I honestly think he should be somehow fleshed out. All that time, I felt that Mia dying to take him down wasn't worth it at all. I admit that the case itself has a big impact and throught Turnabout Sisters it feels like we are taking down someone important, but it quickly got disconnected from the series as a whole.

The problem with him is, writing something that involves him... It'd be hard thing to do, to not feel too forced.

I was thinking about that here again... Even Manfred, who was the final boss of the very first game still shows up here and there: he and his former pupils are in the big spotlight of JFA, in T&T we see "mini Manfred" in the form of Bratworth, not to even mention both GK games.

But at the same time, Redd White, the person who took Mia away, the person who supposedly had whole courts in his pocket, the person who was the reason Mia became a lawyer... Felt strangely disconnected from everything after Turnabout Sisters ended. Now it's a lost opportunity, but having him somehow involved in T&T (flashback cases with Mia as well as Mia's boyfriend being main rival... ahem) would have been a good move... A safe one at that, since him being Mia's killer or being a manipulative bastard is not even a spoiler...

I honestly don't know what to think. Forcing him into a forced flashback would be odd, reappearing after all that time would be odd... Crap, I feel like we're left with no options for ideas. xD

Re: GS6 Ideas

Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:30 pm

dimentiorules

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Here's my idea for case 6-1: Turnabout Rookies. A graduate of the Themis Legal Academy was murdered, and a meek boy named Charlie Horse is arrested. This is the first trial for Hugh O'Connor as a defense attorney, Robin Newman as a prosecutor, and Juniper Woods as a judge. Everyone involved is a rookie, and Athena assists Hugh O'Connor as his aide during the trial. This would be a good return for these characters to be working in an actual court for the first time. It would spawn a bit of comedy from the fact that everyone involved in the trial is a newbie. It's probably a terrible idea, like most of my ideas, but I wanna know what you guys think.

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Re: GS6 Ideas

Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:49 pm

Going for Miles

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Well I don't think it's a bad idea :edgey:

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Re: GS6 Ideas

Sun Jul 13, 2014 2:36 am

SuperAj3

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It's not a bad idea at all! It's just I wonder if they'll bring these characters back is all... Seeing as they're from a 'filler' case. Although they did find a way to bring all the Global Studios characters back into AAI2 and Oldbag (twice) in AAI. (Eshiro's team seem to love bringing people back. Takumi seems to bring back the essentails/comic relief characters only.)

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Re: GS6 Ideas

Sun Jul 13, 2014 3:01 am

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Okay, I have an idea for either 6-3 or 6-4, the Magical Turnabout. It's an idea that just refuses to leave my brain. So basically, we've heard mention of the Wonder Bar quite often throughout the last couple of games. So why not have a case located there?
As for the actual crime: Trucy starts her usual act, only instead of pulling out who-knows-what out of her Magic Panties, she takes out a severed head. Of course, she's accused of the crime and Phoenix and Apollo come to her defense. I've been told by at least one person it was a good and spooky idea.

Also, sorry if this has been mentioned earlier in this thread I haven't read all of it, what if we had another case like 3-4? In which a prosecutor has to act in an attorney's stead? It's less likely to happen now, considering how many lawyers The Wright Anything Agency has, but I still love that idea.

Re: GS6 Ideas

Sun Jul 13, 2014 3:09 am

Klonoahedgehog

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I want lotta to show up.

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Re: GS6 Ideas

Sun Jul 13, 2014 9:41 am

Nearavex

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Guitarlove wrote:

Okay, I have an idea for either 6-3 or 6-4, the Magical Turnabout. It's an idea that just refuses to leave my brain. So basically, we've heard mention of the Wonder Bar quite often throughout the last couple of games. So why not have a case located there?
As for the actual crime: Trucy starts her usual act, only instead of pulling out who-knows-what out of her Magic Panties, she takes out a severed head. Of course, she's accused of the crime and Phoenix and Apollo come to her defense. I've been told by at least one person it was a good and spooky idea.

Also, sorry if this has been mentioned earlier in this thread I haven't read all of it, what if we had another case like 3-4? In which a prosecutor has to act in an attorney's stead? It's less likely to happen now, considering how many lawyers The Wright Anything Agency has, but I still love that idea.

A little bit too brutal for Ace Attorney. A bloody murder weapon would fit better.

Re: GS6 Ideas

Sun Jul 13, 2014 2:07 pm

Guitarlove

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Yeah you're probably right. If a case like this was actually made, a murder weapon would probably be pulled out instead.

Re: GS6 Ideas

Sun Jul 27, 2014 5:34 pm

dimentiorules

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It would be interesting if we had a case where the victim is a child. We've never had that before in any of the previous games. It would add extra drama, I feel.

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Re: GS6 Ideas

Sun Jul 27, 2014 7:19 pm

Rubia Ryu the Royal

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And I could see the ratings jump up to CERO-C, ages 17 and up.

Joking aside, I could see it as a possibility. I could even see another concurrent murder of the defendant taking place as a result of said kid victim. However, it's not because of the kid's parents, even if they jump right to the top of the suspect list. Things like that.

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Re: GS6 Ideas

Sun Jul 27, 2014 7:25 pm

JesusMonroe

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You know, I realized the other day we never had two murders in a case. Sure, we've had things like I-5, and people like Gant have killed more than one person, but we've never had to defend one person on trial for two murders

Re: GS6 Ideas

Sun Jul 27, 2014 9:41 pm

Nearavex

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Technically, 5-5 was the closest, I think. We defended Athena on charges of murders of Metis Cykes and later, Clay Terran.

Re: GS6 Ideas

Sun Jul 27, 2014 10:42 pm

Jean Descole

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JesusMonroe wrote:

You know, I realized the other day we never had two murders in a case. Sure, we've had things like I-5, and people like Gant have killed more than one person, but we've never had to defend one person on trial for two murders

Counterpoint: 1-4

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Re: GS6 Ideas

Sun Jul 27, 2014 11:46 pm

Rubia Ryu the Royal

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...Yeah.

I'm aware the idea for the defendant in a trial being killed has been done as well (3-4, I-4), but the concept is interesting enough for another rendition. But I can say for certain that no witness has ever been killed, pre- or post-trial, outside of execution. There's been one who was blackmailed to keep silent, though he may or may not have known who was the one blackmailing him. Otherwise, the witnesses are only in danger when they face the defense (and occasionally, the prosecution). The witness protection program must be pretty darn strong.

Hmm, now that I think of it again... 1-4, 2-4, 3-4, 4-4, 5-4; they each involve a story that feels personal - either to the characters or to the players or both. I suppose that's a given, since several of them are finale cases, but 4 in of itself is a magic number and these cases bring death into the equation in a deep and meaningful way. Sad to say, the AAI games haven't quite reached that level, as much as they try. Trial #4 in PLvsAA is the final witch trial, but even that didn't feel as emotionally investing as the one before it. I really wonder how 6-4 will turn out.

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Re: GS6 Ideas

Mon Jul 28, 2014 12:31 am

JesusMonroe

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Nearavex wrote:

Technically, 5-5 was the closest, I think. We defended Athena on charges of murders of Metis Cykes and later, Clay Terran.

Sierra Mikain wrote:

Counterpoint: 1-4

These are both murders in the past, though. I'm referring to a crime where two people turn up dead and one person is arrested for both murders

Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:

Hmm, now that I think of it again... 1-4, 2-4, 3-4, 4-4, 5-4; they each involve a story that feels personal - either to the characters or to the players or both. I suppose that's a given, since several of them are finale cases, but 4 in of itself is a magic number and these cases bring death into the equation in a deep and meaningful way. Sad to say, the AAI games haven't quite reached that level, as much as they try.

Kay's father died in I-4 (and umm....someone died in GK2-4, I guess. Though, I guess you could say GK2-4 did have the "personal" element to the players/characters. I-4 was investigation as usual)

Re: GS6 Ideas

Mon Jul 28, 2014 12:34 am

SuperAj3

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Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:

...Yeah.

I'm aware the idea for the defendant in a trial being killed has been done as well (3-4, I-4), but the concept is interesting enough for another rendition. But I can say for certain that no witness has ever been killed, pre- or post-trial, outside of execution. There's been one who was blackmailed to keep silent, though he may or may not have known who was the one blackmailing him. Otherwise, the witnesses are only in danger when they face the defense (and occasionally, the prosecution). The witness protection program must be pretty darn strong.

Spoiler: 5-4

Other than that, all the witnesses haven't been harmed really, they're just tough to crack. :godot:

~ Sprites・Music ・Fangame~

Re: GS6 Ideas

Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:53 am

Rubia Ryu the Royal

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JesusMonroe wrote:

Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:

Hmm, now that I think of it again... 1-4, 2-4, 3-4, 4-4, 5-4; they each involve a story that feels personal - either to the characters or to the players or both. I suppose that's a given, since several of them are finale cases, but 4 in of itself is a magic number and these cases bring death into the equation in a deep and meaningful way. Sad to say, the AAI games haven't quite reached that level, as much as they try.

Kay's father died in I-4 (and umm....someone died in GK2-4, I guess. Though, I guess you could say GK2-4 did have the "personal" element to the players/characters. I-4 was investigation as usual)

I certainly didn't forget them.

Yes, Kay's father was a figure of great importance to the characters themselves, and he turned out to be a pretty cool guy too, though the big secret wasn't revealed until the next case, where it did matter. Kay also came to terms with his passing in a very endearing way. Yet, the only thing that's really left from that case is Kay (and maybe Gumshoe and Edgeworth's partnership). The Yatagarasu lives on in her and only her... until sequel stuff, but that's jumping ahead too soon. At the end of AAI, Kay was undoubtedly a part of Edgeworth's crew, but her backstory becomes pretty much irrelevant. It's like something sad that happened and we move on.

Then in I2-4, [character name] gets amnesia and is framed for murder. Cool, but we all know Edgey would help [pronoun] regardless, so we go along with the investigation and nearly [awkward happenstance] for it. In any case, he solves the mystery, knocks a guy off his [object of status], and saves [character name] and everyone's happy. It's only until I2-5 that this seemingly random sidequest actually becomes relevant, and I applaud them both for the pretty good use of foreshadowing and hindsight. I like writing with blanks.

On a tangent here: that's the biggest difference between Yamazaki and Takumi's writing styles: one prefers to use a line-hook-and-sinker approach to building up mysteries, while the other sticks to solid, concrete prompts right from the start and then works his way along with the details. The exception in Takumi's case is 4-4. I don't have a preference for either style, though.

Mijumaru wrote:

Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:

...Yeah.

I'm aware the idea for the defendant in a trial being killed has been done as well (3-4, I-4), but the concept is interesting enough for another rendition. But I can say for certain that no witness has ever been killed, pre- or post-trial, outside of execution. There's been one who was blackmailed to keep silent, though he may or may not have known who was the one blackmailing him. Otherwise, the witnesses are only in danger when they face the defense (and occasionally, the prosecution). The witness protection program must be pretty darn strong.

Spoiler: 5-4

Other than that, all the witnesses haven't been harmed really, they're just tough to crack. :godot:

Was she, or was she simply part of security detail? I don't remember it clearly. If she was one, then my bad.

They haven't been "harmed"? I'd say getting several whiplashes that should technically be illegal in court count as "harm" in the most concise definition. :<

The home of the Gyakuten Saiban vs Ace Attorney blog: http://gyakutengagotoku.tumblr.com
1/3/19 edit: The project has officially been moved to a new blog at https://gsvsaa.blogspot.com/ Further updates will be pending.

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Re: GS6 Ideas

Mon Jul 28, 2014 2:52 am

JesusMonroe

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Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:

Yes, Kay's father was a figure of great importance to the characters themselves, and he turned out to be a pretty cool guy too, though the big secret wasn't revealed until the next case, where it did matter. Kay also came to terms with his passing in a very endearing way. Yet, the only thing that's really left from that case is Kay (and maybe Gumshoe and Edgeworth's partnership). The Yatagarasu lives on in her and only her... until sequel stuff, but that's jumping ahead too soon. At the end of AAI, Kay was undoubtedly a part of Edgeworth's crew, but her backstory becomes pretty much irrelevant. It's like something sad that happened and we move on.

Then in I2-4, [character name] gets amnesia and is framed for murder. Cool, but we all know Edgey would help [pronoun] regardless, so we go along with the investigation and nearly [awkward happenstance] for it. In any case, he solves the mystery, knocks a guy off his [object of status], and saves [character name] and everyone's happy. It's only until I2-5 that this seemingly random sidequest actually becomes relevant, and I applaud them both for the pretty good use of foreshadowing and hindsight. I like writing with blanks.

On a tangent here: that's the biggest difference between Yamazaki and Takumi's writing styles: one prefers to use a line-hook-and-sinker approach to building up mysteries, while the other sticks to solid, concrete prompts right from the start and then works his way along with the details. The exception in Takumi's case is 4-4. I don't have a preference for either style, though.

Yes, but AAI-4 and AAI2-4 do fit into the category of "fourth case that gets the players and/or characters emotionally invested." Actually, I'd argue that I was more emotionally invested in I-4 than I-5 (though the amount was minute. Actually, the case I was most invested in with GK was I-2, funnily enough. Mostly because I really liked Rhoda)

I don't really have a preference for either style, but speaking from "experience", it's easier to write with Yamazaki's style. I'd say it's more like:

Takumi-start with a clear-cut premise that gets crazier
Yamazaki-start with a crazy premise that becomes more clear-cut

Both have mingled in the other style with various degrees of success. Interesting that you bring up 4-4. I remember starting the case and halfway through Day 1 Investigation, I was thinking this had to be the most boring finale case by far, but then it got deeper and deeper until the point where my jaw was dropping all the time from a revelation every other sentence (then the anti-climatic final trial happened, but I'll cut Takumi some slack since he was under a time constraint)

Oh and Arme wasn't originally going to be a witness, but she was called to the stand before Tonate objected

Re: GS6 Ideas

Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:04 am

Rubia Ryu the Royal

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Quote:

Yes, but AAI-4 and AAI2-4 do fit into the category of "fourth case that gets the players and/or characters emotionally invested."

I'll concede on this at the very least; I wasn't completely unattached to them like with other cases. I still feel that the mainstream games have done the job better overall (and I'm not talking about the finale cases).

Quote:

I don't really have a preference for either style, but speaking from "experience", it's easier to write with Yamazaki's style. I'd say it's more like:

Takumi-start with a clear-cut premise that gets crazier
Yamazaki-start with a crazy premise that becomes more clear-cut

Both have mingled in the other style with various degrees of success.

Hmm... I wouldn't say it's "easier" to use either one, but when I write, I tend to fall toward Takumi's style. I start with the lesson I want to express and work my way from there. If I started with a silly/weird/wth premise, I can't quite take it seriously enough to push all the way to the end.

Envisioning them another way: Takumi's approach would be like a tree branching out, where the base represents the recurring theme or moral lesson that loosely ties all the cases together, but without actually making them associated with one another. Yamazaki's approach would be more like a web that entraps the audience for a bit until they either break free themselves (that is, quit) or wait until the spider comes home. As it turns out, the spider arrives to free them, rather than feast on its victims.

Naturally, Yamazaki's web would be sitting somewhere on Takumi's tree, but sometimes, it doesn't quite reach the trunk. I mean, Yamazaki does bring a strong message through the games he writes for, but it's not always so clear-cut like with Takumi's. It's my personal opinion that this is why I prefer Takumi's writing over Yamazaki's.

...I just imagined Takumi as a tree and Yamazaki as a spider. What am I doing?

Quote:

Oh and Arme wasn't originally going to be a witness, but she was called to the stand before Tonate objected

Then my point stands. She had yet to be a witness.

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1/3/19 edit: The project has officially been moved to a new blog at https://gsvsaa.blogspot.com/ Further updates will be pending.

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Re: GS6 Ideas

Mon Jul 28, 2014 5:16 am

linkenski

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I think that's pretty much exactly me problem with Yamazakis style too. I prefer the simple premises that don't seem like much but build and build upon themselves until you have a great mystery. In Yamazaki's writing we always explicitly start with a giant mystery but then spend the entire case almost only talking about how that one crazy mystery makes logical sense. I don't really care smirch for that as it becomes too much of a drag to constantly sit through dialogue where all the characters can say is "how can [person x] be the culprit when the victim was killed by a rock that fell from a cliffside!?" (random stupid premise) whereas I like how the logical approach in Takumi's writing is more often about why stuff happens.

Another thing often missing in Yamazakis games is in most games during court you present a theory that counter argues the prosecution at some point and then the prosecution will maybe go like "but why would the defendant so that?" sticking to the motives instead of always talking about 'how' something was physically possible.

Outside of case 1 in Dual Destinies I hardly found the characters to even be interested in what the witnesses and possible suspects had of reasons to be doing things they were accused of.

I think in short it always felt tme like Yamazaki begins writing from the top and then assumes we are interested in solving one giant puzzle whereas Takumi mostly starts without giving to much away and then steadily keeps your interest by making his cases build upon them selves.

Outside of RftA there aren't a lot of cases that go "BOOM, aren't you shocked in disbelief?"

I actually think starting off cases with huge suspension disbelief stretchers makes me go into cases with a bad first impression. But I can see why a lot of people think Yamazaki's style is great. To me it just seems to be more about style and less about substance and I simply don't like that.

Edit: sorry for not cutting some of my long-ass post out before I add more btw. I just wanna say that I don't mean to just bash Yamazaki here. I think my point is that he has written good stories like mostly AAI2 but AAI also had some okay backstories, so if he could just somehow present it all in a more captivating way then maybe I wouldn't be so iffy about him heading the series :godot:

This is the Dark Age of the Ace Attorney

Re: GS6 Ideas

Mon Jul 28, 2014 6:29 am

Rubia Ryu the Royal

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Well, actually, I was just going for the point that Yamazaki doesn't always hammer home the final question or lesson to players. GK1 and GK2 both provide excellent scenarios for players to ask themselves, "how far is too far?" or "Do the ends really justify the means?" And both games seem to suggest toward a "yes" in several cases. (Note that he often acts like that blue guy, despite stating at one point that he was going for his own thing.) But then comes along Dual Destinies with the same blue guy opting for "no" and being pretty defensive about it. (And he proceeds to do everything that seems to subvert his own claim anyway.) I appreciate a nice contrast between the two characters, but that isn't the way to do it. And in the end, it's as if saying "We're not saying anything!" Well, I see we're back on square one.

Meanwhile, Takumi took the same question and threw it together into one case: RftA. That's all he needed. He touched on the subject without specifically stating it anywhere in the case. Case in point is the situation with Phoenix breaking into the office of a person of authority. Everyone involved knew it was unlawful but went with it anyway. It was only because Gant was nice enough to not arrest him for it that he got off scot-free. There's a clear message right there. "If you can get away with it, then go ahead!" is tempting to say, but a better interpretation could be "Make sure you know what you're really getting into before you get into it." There, plain and simple, and nothing else after it that Takumi wrote contradicted his message.

Well, I guess that's my suggestion for this thread. I'd like to hear inspiration from these games. It's not just all corny jokes and slapstick shenanigans in a court of "law"... even if it's practically a guarantee in this series for things to turn out that way.

And in other news, I want to see Nick in a different hat. I don't know where that came from, but I suddenly want to see him with a hat. Edgey too, but he's probably too busy fluffing his cravat every morning to bother with a hat.

The home of the Gyakuten Saiban vs Ace Attorney blog: http://gyakutengagotoku.tumblr.com
1/3/19 edit: The project has officially been moved to a new blog at https://gsvsaa.blogspot.com/ Further updates will be pending.

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Re: GS6 Ideas

Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:45 am

Nearavex

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I think the whole concept of ends and means has gotten a bit bland in the first place, but there might be an explanation for it - that said blue guy didn't oppose the theory, but rather how corrupted lawyer, like Means used it.

Re: GS6 Ideas

Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:20 pm

Thane

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To me, the biggest problem with Mr. Yamazaki's writing has always been the utter lack of subtlety. Whenever he writes a "message" he wants his players to understand, he blatantly states it, and the impact of it is dampened considerably.

His murder cases, too, are often too grand and convoluted to make much sense after some scrutiny. Granted, this is Ace Attorney and he does have some elbow room thanks to the series' well-known goofy nature, but he often oversteps even that boundary. Too much effort is put into trying to confuse and shock the player far more than necessary, and it's almost always handled worse than Mr. Takumi's plot twists. When the latter writes a case, the puzzle pieces all fall into place one way or the other by themselves, whereas Mr. Yamazaki's cases usually require the hypothetical puzzle pieces be slammed into place, even though they don't really fit.

My favorite expression is "you can make the audience believe the impossible, but not the improbable", and that is something Mr. Yamazaki has yet to learn.

Re: GS6 Ideas

Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:38 pm

JesusMonroe

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Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:

Hmm... I wouldn't say it's "easier" to use either one, but when I write, I tend to fall toward Takumi's style. I start with the lesson I want to express and work my way from there. If I started with a silly/weird/wth premise, I can't quite take it seriously enough to push all the way to the end.

Envisioning them another way: Takumi's approach would be like a tree branching out, where the base represents the recurring theme or moral lesson that loosely ties all the cases together, but without actually making them associated with one another. Yamazaki's approach would be more like a web that entraps the audience for a bit until they either break free themselves (that is, quit) or wait until the spider comes home. As it turns out, the spider arrives to free them, rather than feast on its victims.

Naturally, Yamazaki's web would be sitting somewhere on Takumi's tree, but sometimes, it doesn't quite reach the trunk. I mean, Yamazaki does bring a strong message through the games he writes for, but it's not always so clear-cut like with Takumi's. It's my personal opinion that this is why I prefer Takumi's writing over Yamazaki's.

...I just imagined Takumi as a tree and Yamazaki as a spider. What am I doing?

Well, I don't really mean starting with a silly premise like, "A man was murdered by a yokai!" (though that probably was how the planning for the case started). More like, "What if two neighboring embassies each held a victim killed by a weapon from the other embassy." That's a premise that the case is built around and Yamazaki probably didn't know the answer to the mystery when he came up with the premise

If Takumi is a tree, then Yamazaki could be like a fungi that thrives in the shade of the tree. There's a better spot that it could grow away from the tree, but the tree itself has already offered so many great nutrients that the fungi decides its more content with staying under it, biting off more from the tree that it can chew

I prefer Takumi as well, but I don't think Yamazaki is bad. I didn't even know the series switched writers until joining this forum, so I clearly don't see much of a difference in the "flavor text"

I generally think Yamazaki writes better mysteries to be honest. I think Takumi has written really good ones that have exceeded Yamazaki's, but more often than not you can figure out the mystery fairly quickly and the mysteries have plotholes (I rarely see people bring up plotholes in Yamazaki's). I also prefer Yamazaki's overarching stories (not themes, though. Takumi has that)

With characters, it's hard to say. Both have introduced characters that I love (and I think Takumi has handled the A-List characters better), but I also think Takumi has introduced more characters that I've hated. A lot of times he crosses the line from funny to just plain annoying, so this one's a toss-up

I think it's just a difference in what an audience prefers. When I see a complicated mystery, I get more intrigued and I do want to figure it out (and Takumi isn't a stranger to complicated mysteries. 1-4, 1-5 are the best cases in the first game are those are really the only ones that get complex)

Re: GS6 Ideas

Mon Jul 28, 2014 5:55 pm

Rubia Ryu the Royal

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Aw, come on guys. The Phoenix-hat question has been something that has yet to be solved. "How to put a hat on porcupine head without losing his signature spikes and making it match his suit?" (And no top-hats. That's cheating.)

Nearavex wrote:

I think the whole concept of ends and means has gotten a bit bland in the first place, but there might be an explanation for it - that said blue guy didn't oppose the theory, but rather how corrupted lawyer, like Means used it.

I was using it as an example since it's so easy to use. Point is, Yamazaki's stories leave a lot to the imagination, but at the same time, they leave a lot to be desired as well. It's like he's purposely writing a story with the mindset that it must go on, and the conclusions are simply the ends of acts in a play. (Assuming Capcom's executives have been involved somehow is a given.) Yet, it's come to the point that when you finish one game, you have to wonder if they're simply coming up with more puzzles just for the sake of making puzzles.

That is putting it a little harshly, but I think it holds some truth. I'm starting to see the series as taking the Professor Layton route, by which I mean it's become more like "Ace Attorney and the Random Murder Cases".

Thane wrote:

To me, the biggest problem with Mr. Yamazaki's writing has always been the utter lack of subtlety. Whenever he writes a "message" he wants his players to understand, he blatantly states it, and the impact of it is dampened considerably.

He blatantly states something at one point, but doesn't back it up in a way that wouldn't interrupt the progressing story, and then he feels free to switch to a contrasted view to what he previously stated, using the same character. Said character is meant to be portrayed in stark contrast to the previous protagonists, but instead he only becomes more indecisive about what tea he should drink this morning. That's the real reason why it lacks impact. ~~The tea, I mean~~

JesusMonroe wrote:

Well, I don't really mean starting with a silly premise like, "A man was murdered by a yokai!" (though that probably was how the planning for the case started). More like, "What if two neighboring embassies each held a victim killed by a weapon from the other embassy." That's a premise that the case is built around and Yamazaki probably didn't know the answer to the mystery when he came up with the premise

Yeah, but... I can see why he'd take that route, since it does make a very interesting premise, but then comes the main issue: how to collect it into a coherent mystery that doesn't force people to suspend their disbelief for any reason.

There's no doubt he writes good mysteries, but people are picky about consistency within a single universe that is fraught with contradictions. That seems like a moot point to complain about it, but it's no excuse to ignore them.

Quote:

If Takumi is a tree, then Yamazaki could be like a fungi that thrives in the shade of the tree. There's a better spot that it could grow away from the tree, but the tree itself has already offered so many great nutrients that the fungi decides its more content with staying under it, biting off more from the tree that it can chew

I like where this has led.

The home of the Gyakuten Saiban vs Ace Attorney blog: http://gyakutengagotoku.tumblr.com
1/3/19 edit: The project has officially been moved to a new blog at https://gsvsaa.blogspot.com/ Further updates will be pending.

AA fanfiction archive: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=31369
Yakuza/RGG fanfiction archive: https://archiveofourown.org/users/rubia ... /rubia_ryu
My misc translation and work promos here at http://rubiaryutheroyal.tumblr.com

Re: GS6 Ideas

Mon Jul 28, 2014 6:38 pm

Thane

Gender: None specified

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Joined: Sat Jun 22, 2013 7:47 pm

Posts: 970

JesusMonroe wrote:

Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:

Hmm... I wouldn't say it's "easier" to use either one, but when I write, I tend to fall toward Takumi's style. I start with the lesson I want to express and work my way from there. If I started with a silly/weird/wth premise, I can't quite take it seriously enough to push all the way to the end.

Envisioning them another way: Takumi's approach would be like a tree branching out, where the base represents the recurring theme or moral lesson that loosely ties all the cases together, but without actually making them associated with one another. Yamazaki's approach would be more like a web that entraps the audience for a bit until they either break free themselves (that is, quit) or wait until the spider comes home. As it turns out, the spider arrives to free them, rather than feast on its victims.

Naturally, Yamazaki's web would be sitting somewhere on Takumi's tree, but sometimes, it doesn't quite reach the trunk. I mean, Yamazaki does bring a strong message through the games he writes for, but it's not always so clear-cut like with Takumi's. It's my personal opinion that this is why I prefer Takumi's writing over Yamazaki's.

...I just imagined Takumi as a tree and Yamazaki as a spider. What am I doing?

I generally think Yamazaki writes better mysteries to be honest. I think Takumi has written really good ones that have exceeded Yamazaki's, but more often than not you can figure out the mystery fairly quickly and the mysteries have plotholes )

We have disagreed with each other regarding this many times, but case 5-5 is the swiss cheese of storylines, and it has forever tainted my memory of Dual Destinies.