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GK2'S Villain (spoiler)
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Personally,I loved him.He was a pretty funny character in case 2,and...
Spoiler:
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Last edited by Cesar Zero on Sun Aug 03, 2014 9:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Simon Keyes (MAJOR SPOILERS)
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The point of Keyes is to not know how important he actually is.
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Re: Simon Keyes (MAJOR SPOILERS)
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linkenski wrote:
I think emphasising the thread title with (MAJOR SPOILERS) is a major spoiler in and of itself :/
The point of Keyes is to not know how important he actually is.
The point of Keyes is to not know how important he actually is.
Edited it.
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Re: Simon Keyes (MAJOR SPOILERS)
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Anyway, he's definitely in the top tier as far as villains go. I'd say he ranks with Von Karma, Gant, and Calisto Yew. He also probably has the best motive out of every villain thus far
Immensely evil while also remaining immensely sympathetic, he was smart, hilarious, tough, had a great design, came out of a great twist, and had one of the best themes in the entire series. What's there not to love about this guy?
If I had one complaint it would be that his clown personality is so drastically different from his "regular" one. Like, when I look at Case 2, I don't even see this guy as the same character from Case 5. In Case 5, Edgeworth could've deduced the killer was whoever controlled the balloon at the Berry Big Circus and we could've met Simon for the first time there. Nothing would've been lost besides the insanely good twist (ok, so a great deal would've been lost, but I hope you get my point)
Re: Simon Keyes (MAJOR SPOILERS)
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JesusMonroe wrote:
Change the title to "The Mastermind (SPOILERS)" or "The Final Villain (SPOILERS)." It'll be just as bad if someone stumbles into this thread about Simon and sees tags up everywhere
Anyway, he's definitely in the top tier as far as villains go. I'd say he ranks with Von Karma, Gant, and Calisto Yew. He also probably has the best motive out of every villain thus far
Immensely evil while also remaining immensely sympathetic, he was smart, hilarious, tough, had a great design, came out of a great twist, and had one of the best themes in the entire series. What's there not to love about this guy?
If I had one complaint it would be that his clown personality is so drastically different from his "regular" one. Like, when I look at Case 2, I don't even see this guy as the same character from Case 5. In Case 5, Edgeworth could've deduced the killer was whoever controlled the balloon at the Berry Big Circus and we could've met Simon for the first time there. Nothing would've been lost besides the insanely good twist (ok, so a great deal would've been lost, but I hope you get my point)
Also, I don't like his patch name, especially considering we now have two Simons in the series. I prefer Simeon Traill
Anyway, he's definitely in the top tier as far as villains go. I'd say he ranks with Von Karma, Gant, and Calisto Yew. He also probably has the best motive out of every villain thus far
Immensely evil while also remaining immensely sympathetic, he was smart, hilarious, tough, had a great design, came out of a great twist, and had one of the best themes in the entire series. What's there not to love about this guy?
If I had one complaint it would be that his clown personality is so drastically different from his "regular" one. Like, when I look at Case 2, I don't even see this guy as the same character from Case 5. In Case 5, Edgeworth could've deduced the killer was whoever controlled the balloon at the Berry Big Circus and we could've met Simon for the first time there. Nothing would've been lost besides the insanely good twist (ok, so a great deal would've been lost, but I hope you get my point)
Ok...I guess yo are right.
Also,yeah,I agree his personality is too different for the most time,except where he acts all shy in some parts just to mock Edgeworth. Also,did anyone notice how he is,technically,the most "successful" villain in that he had revenge on everyone he wanted to have revenge against,and the only thing where he failed was,well,that he got convicted.
Another thing that kinda bothered me was how he actually killed the body double.I mean,it would have been way more interesting and original if they kept the whole "I didn't directly make them kill each other,so I am not responsible for anything" theme.That way he would have been much more like his father,who could not be prosecuted because of the statute of limitations,and thus the only way to convict him was to look at things from another perspective.
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Re: GK2'S Villain (spoiler)
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Re: GK2'S Villain (spoiler)
I've felt worse.
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GoingforMiles wrote:
I was also a little disappointed that he actually did directly kill a person, the whole thing with him just pulling the strings and get the people to kill each other was way more interesting and would have differentiated the take-down from past ones, especially with trying to figure out how to do it.
Adding to this, he's the only villain to call the "heroes" out on one specific detail:
Had he not directly killed anyone, this would only have served to strengthen his character. That said, for reasons stated above this post, he still remains one of the most memorable villains in this series.
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Re: GK2'S Villain (spoiler)
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GoingforMiles wrote:
2. Get rid of that incredibly stupid and cringe-worthy breakdown. I mean, getting slapped by circus animals? Come on. Even von Karma's breakdown was more worthy than that.
I know,right?I mean,the first part of his breakdown was super sad and emotional and then we get..that?It would be funny if he was just a lame starter villain,but after the writers obviously wanted to make him an unique villain,I don't know why the hell they would give him such an over-the-top breakdown.
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Re: GK2'S Villain (spoiler)
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Plus, think about it. Simon is the "mastermind." The one time he puts matters into his own hands is what gets him convicted in the end. Plus, he meticulously planned everything out and in the end, he relied on chance to kill the body double, and got caught for it. I don't know. I thought that was really cool and kind of played into the theme that the world of Ace Attorney is way smaller than we think it is (like in 4-2)
Plus, the twist that he crushed the double with the hot air balloon was just cool. It took me forever to figure out that contradiction, though (I figured Shigaraki was saying that double had to die for Simon to carry him in the balloon, but I didn't put two and two together because the time of deaths didn't match up >:( )
And c'mon! That's one of the best breakdowns ever! (Not as satisfying as Von Karma's, but who's is?) After Yogi, Mimi, and Acro, the last thing I want is a villain who just cries instead of giving a proper breakdown
Re: GK2'S Villain (spoiler)
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Re: GK2'S Villain (spoiler)
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Re: GK2'S Villain (spoiler)
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And yeah, I agree on the double Simon thing, especially since every time I just say "Simon" in reference to Blackquill, I get a bunch of blank stares because they think I'm talking about Keyes.
Poor Simon. This one --->
, not that other one.
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Re: GK2'S Villain (spoiler)
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TheBlackquillz wrote:
And the squirrels. The squirrels that juggle themselves.
And yeah, I agree on the double Simon thing, especially since every time I just say "Simon" in reference to Blackquill, I get a bunch of blank stares because they think I'm talking about Keyes.
Poor Simon. This one ---> , not that other one.
And yeah, I agree on the double Simon thing, especially since every time I just say "Simon" in reference to Blackquill, I get a bunch of blank stares because they think I'm talking about Keyes.
Poor Simon. This one --->
, not that other one.Yeah,I agree.They should have just called him "Simeon" like in Dowolf's translation.
Btw,does anybody know the meaning behind his fan translation name? I read in Tvtropes something about it sounding like "shy monkeys",but is there any foreshadowing that he is the villain in that name?
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Re: GK2'S Villain (spoiler)
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TheBlackquillz wrote:
And the squirrels. The squirrels that juggle themselves.
And yeah, I agree on the double Simon thing, especially since every time I just say "Simon" in reference to Blackquill, I get a bunch of blank stares because they think I'm talking about Keyes.
Poor Simon. This one ---> , not that other one.
And yeah, I agree on the double Simon thing, especially since every time I just say "Simon" in reference to Blackquill, I get a bunch of blank stares because they think I'm talking about Keyes.
Poor Simon. This one --->
, not that other one.Yeah,I agree.They should have just called him "Simeon" like in Dowolf's translation.
Btw,does anybody know the meaning behind his fan translation name? I read in Tvtropes something about it sounding like "shy monkeys",but is there any foreshadowing that he is the villain in that name?
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Re: GK2'S Villain (spoiler)
Y'know
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Shame I wasn't there when characters were named, really.
His name might also mean "sly monkeys" or in case of my name "sly monkey man" in the same manner
Re: GK2'S Villain (spoiler)
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cesar26100 wrote:
TheBlackquillz wrote:
And the squirrels. The squirrels that juggle themselves.
And yeah, I agree on the double Simon thing, especially since every time I just say "Simon" in reference to Blackquill, I get a bunch of blank stares because they think I'm talking about Keyes.
Poor Simon. This one ---> , not that other one.
And yeah, I agree on the double Simon thing, especially since every time I just say "Simon" in reference to Blackquill, I get a bunch of blank stares because they think I'm talking about Keyes.
Poor Simon. This one --->
, not that other one.Yeah,I agree.They should have just called him "Simeon" like in Dowolf's translation.
Btw,does anybody know the meaning behind his fan translation name? I read in Tvtropes something about it sounding like "shy monkeys",but is there any foreshadowing that he is the villain in that name?
De Killer says in Case 1 his client is a "monkey person." I heard they changed this line to "curious person" in the fan translation because of Curious George (the monkey). Dowolf changed the line to say that De Killer was following a trail from his client (cause his name in that is Simeon Traille. Traille also has liar backwards)
Re: GK2'S Villain (spoiler)
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Re: GK2'S Villain (spoiler)
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JesusMonroe wrote:
Yeah,I agree.They should have just called him "Simeon" like in Dowolf's translation.
Btw,does anybody know the meaning behind his fan translation name? I read in Tvtropes something about it sounding like "shy monkeys",but is there any foreshadowing that he is the villain in that name?
Btw,does anybody know the meaning behind his fan translation name? I read in Tvtropes something about it sounding like "shy monkeys",but is there any foreshadowing that he is the villain in that name?
De Killer says in Case 1 his client is a "monkey person."[/quote]
IIRC, it's actually just 'a certain' person in Japanese (saru, which is used less often than aru for 'a certain'). Saru also happens to be the word for monkey, but in a first reading of the original text nobody fluent in Japanese would think of a monkey and just read the phrase 'a certain person'. It only becomes a slightly oblique reference in hindsight (and not actual foreshadowing).
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Re: GK2'S Villain (spoiler)
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Ash wrote:
IIRC, it's actually just 'a certain' person in Japanese (saru, which is used less often than aru for 'a certain'). Saru also happens to be the word for monkey, but in a first reading of the original text nobody fluent in Japanese would think of a monkey and just read the phrase 'a certain person'. It only becomes a slightly oblique reference in hindsight (and not actual foreshadowing).
Interesting. Is this a clever trick by the writers? Like, did De Killer actually say, "monkey person" but 99% of JP readers would see "certain person", even though that's not what he meant?
Edit: Here's the line
Re: GK2'S Villain (spoiler)
Y'know
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Ash wrote:
IIRC, it's actually just 'a certain' person in Japanese (saru, which is used less often than aru for 'a certain'). Saru also happens to be the word for monkey, but in a first reading of the original text nobody fluent in Japanese would think of a monkey and just read the phrase 'a certain person'. It only becomes a slightly oblique reference in hindsight (and not actual foreshadowing).
But then, with Sarushiro appearing, wouldn't someone connect the dots?
Re: GK2'S Villain (spoiler)
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JesusMonroe wrote:
Interesting. Is this a clever trick by the writers? Like, did De Killer actually say, "monkey person" but 99% of JP readers would see "certain person", even though that's not what he meant?
Edit: Here's the line
Edit: Here's the line
Very unlikely. In the context of Koroshiya's speech style throughout the game, it's clear he really is just talking about 'a certain person' here and not playing word games. The 'monkey person' idea wouldn't make sense grammatically, either. (For those who know a bit of Japanese: note how he is using honorifics when he is talking about his client. Also keep in mind Koroshiya's speech style in general, and you'll see that さるお方 is meant just as 'a certain person'. 猿お方 would make no sense, as the words just clash because of the honorific forms).
Nearavex wrote:
But then, with Sarushiro appearing, wouldn't someone connect the dots?
No, because 'saru okata' (a certain person') is a fairly standardized phrase. Almost like saying "A certain person? The word 'son' is in 'person'! That means that Kazama's son is the murderer!!". There are relatively few mora in the Japanese language, so there are a lot of homophones and admittedly, sometimes people do play around with that, but some just make no sense. For example, the screenshot above starts with "その” (sono, that), but you could also read it as 園 (sono, garden). Or 祖の (sono, of the forefathers). Would it make sense in most situations? No. Would anyone remotely fluent in Japanese read it as those words? No. Is it technically possible and can it in some circumstances sorta seem significant? Yes.
Edit: that said, it is funny it seems like a reference to Sarushiro, but it seems like only people who aren't very advanced in the Japanese language would catch the saru link, because their vocabulary is more limited, so they'd be more prone to just read saru as monkey instead seeing the word in the complete context of Koroshiya's speech style (and slightly advanced honorific Japanese).
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Re: GK2'S Villain (spoiler)
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Re: GK2'S Villain (spoiler)
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Ash wrote:
No, because 'saru okata' (a certain person') is a fairly standardized phrase. Almost like saying "A certain person? The word 'son' is in 'person'! That means that Kazama's son is the murderer!!". There are relatively few mora in the Japanese language, so there are a lot of homophones and admittedly, sometimes people do play around with that, but some just make no sense. For example, the screenshot above starts with "その” (sono, that), but you could also read it as 園 (sono, garden). Or 祖の (sono, of the forefathers). Would it make sense in most situations? No. Would anyone remotely fluent in Japanese read it as those words? No. Is it technically possible and can it in some circumstances sorta seem significant? Yes.
So the equivalent being if De Killer said "My client is a certain person" and his localized name being Samson or something?
Informative post, though. Every time I learn a little about Japanese, I just get more and more confused
Re: GK2'S Villain (spoiler)
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Re: GK2'S Villain (spoiler)
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Each time I talk about him I have to mention how disappointed I am to have accidentally spoiled myself some year ago. I know that I, if I hadn't figured it out beforehand (which I don't think I would, even if there are small hints), would have been very shocked in the best way possible with the reveal. I found his persona quite adorable, so the dissonance was wonderful. I loved it when he just let his hair down (or, well, had the animals help him with it), grinned that wicked grin and used the trained animals as a armseat. How the heck can a damn clown look so wonderfully badass (and, ehrm, good)... while resting on a pig, a chipmunk and a cat?
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Re: GK2'S Villain (spoiler)
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He was pretty wonderful overall, fun design, looks wonderfully evil when he turns and yes his theme is amazing.
Only sad part was...(and this is more due to the game itself) they had so many cameos it would have had to have been him. The final roster is literally people you know who are innocent or already considered "below" the Mastermind (like Justine and Lang or Blaise) or cameos (Penny, Will, Regina) so as the only remaining original character who isn't cleared I felt there wasn't really much room for speculation. I was thinking for most of the finale "It's him...but HOW is it him?"
Overall I still really enjoyed him, dominating the animals really worked well with his "Mastermind" theme and the Clown makeup was used to make him look fairly sinister but also indicates how he is laughing at the law. Plus he actually felt like sufficient INTELLECTUAL opposition for Edgeworth. Most people Edgeworth goes up against I feel are either clearly going to lose (Prison Warden) or only have the advantage on Edgeworth in terms of authoritative power (Alba and Blaise) and will use that to obscure the truth and make life difficult for them. Simon matched Edgeworth blow for blow for the most part and it made for a wonderful finale to see a true rival for Edgeworth.
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Re: GK2'S Villain (spoiler)
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Re: GK2'S Villain (spoiler)
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Going for Miles wrote:
Really, he's like the once-in-a-lifetime, perfect villain.
Exactly. That makes me even more pissed when it comes to his breakdown. I was looking forward to it; oh, that one must be really cree... no. How undignifying.
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Re: GK2'S Villain (spoiler)
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Re: GK2'S Villain (spoiler)
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Going for Miles wrote:
I can't help but find it morbidly funny that he killed someone by landing on them with a hot-air balloon.
That's how clowns kill.
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Re: GK2'S Villain (spoiler)
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All through the case I was thinking "Why did he reappear? He's not a simple cameo after the second case, he can't be" then everything fell into place. Up to that point no one associated with Knightley as a friend.
And his relationship with Knightley...or Knightley's relationship with him was pretty nice, even if Simon ultimately couldn't care less about him. Knightley seemed to think of him as an actual friend, being happy to watch his show.
And ultimately, he became my third favourite character. AAI2 has too many good characters.
Re: GK2'S Villain (spoiler)
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Re: GK2'S Villain (spoiler)
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