Regarding the motive in Episode 5 (Spoiler)
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Spoiler:
Re: Regarding the motive in Episode 5 (Spoiler)
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EDIT: Wait! Spoilers abound in the topic title so no need for tags. (strips tags from post)
ITT, we talk about how stupid Godot was for trying to get revenge against a woman who was already dead and killed a living person when he could have altered Morgan's plan since he knew about it.
Still, for trying to kill an already dead woman he was either so full of hatred and vengeance that he literally threw everything he knew about rational thinking out the window or realized that he had nothing left to live for except keeping alive the only remaining person who reminded him of Mia. I would like argue the latter but Croik would simply smash my argument down so no point to that.
The million-dollar question here is, "Why did Godot kill Misty when he could have done something else?" It's not like Morgan was going to appear in a huge puff of smoke and smite him down with an unholy bolt of lightning for screwing with her letter to Pearl, so I wonder...
Re: Regarding the motive in Episode 5 (Spoiler)
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Macbeth wrote:
Still, for trying to kill an already dead woman he was either so full of hatred and vengeance that he literally threw everything he knew about rational thinking out the window or realized that he had nothing left to live for except keeping alive the only remaining person who reminded him of Mia. I would like argue the latter but Croik would simply smash my argument down so no point to that...
No no no, I agree! Godot is a dumb ass with no iota of logic in his silly coffee-addicted brain!
He was so busy thinking "Thwart Dahlia AND save Maya? SCORE, it's my lucky day!" that it probably never occured to him that no part of the plan had actually been set into motion yet, and was thus entirely preventable. If he had sat down for a minute to really *think* about what he was doing, maybe he would have come to a more sensible conclusion.I wouldn't mind Godot as a villain if not for all the back-patting everyone gives him at the end of the game. Overlooking the very easy and obvious solution that would have prevented anyone from being in any danger makes him a martyr!? Psshhhhhhh
Re: Regarding the motive in Episode 5 (Spoiler)
So moe for Makoto it's funny.
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Which really isn't much better.
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Re: Regarding the motive in Episode 5 (Spoiler)
Do your best, Nick. Hee... hee... hee...
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Also, note that his original plan was simply to have Misty stop Pearl from following the instructions. If that hadn't fallen apart, there wouldn't be such a huge disparity between what he did and what he should have done.
Re: Regarding the motive in Episode 5 (Spoiler)
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Hi! I've largely stepped back from C-R due to life stuff. Please contact one of the other staff members for help!
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If there was such a thing as the "Wooster Seal of Approval", this post would get it.
Last edited by Bolt Storm on Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Regarding the motive in Episode 5 (Spoiler)
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Re: Regarding the motive in Episode 5 (Spoiler)
A Kodac moment.
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Macbeth wrote:
tl;dr
Er... what does tham mean?
Anyways, my opinion has already been said. Godot wanted a chance to kill Dahlia, so he let it happen.
Re: Regarding the motive in Episode 5 (Spoiler)
.......
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I would have much prefered it if Morgan had outlined her plan to Pearl right there in prison, making it sound like the plan would help Maya. It would have added to Morgan's character in my opinion, making her seem all the more cunning and manipulative. Instead the letter makes her look like she's rather lacking in intelligence.
I'm not sure what we're supposed to think of Godot at the end of case 5, to be honest, whether we're supposed to think of him as a flawed, tragic person who risked his life to save the life of the sister of his old girlfriend, or if we're supposed to think he's a selfish idiot. The way that it's really only Godot who questions his actions, no one ever mentions that the whole mess would have been avoided if he'd just hidden the letter, suggests to me that we are supposed to consider him something of a flawed hero, though. If the letter didn't exist, then yes, Godot should have just told Pearl what would happen if she followed her mother's instructions, but it's a little easier to swallow than the whole "Letter, Pocket, Door....nope, I'll just leave it here."
Re: Regarding the motive in Episode 5 (Spoiler)
A Kodac moment.
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Quote:
I would have much prefered it if Morgan had outlined her plan to Pearl right there in prison, making it sound like the plan would help Maya. It would have added to Morgan's character in my opinion, making her seem all the more cunning and manipulative. Instead the letter makes her look like she's rather lacking in intelligence.
Actually, she did tell Pearl about the plan in prison. She just wrote the letter to make sure Pearl didn't forget.
...Well, I think she did. I've only played the case once, but I'm sure that that is mentioned.
Re: Regarding the motive in Episode 5 (Spoiler)
.......
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Re: Regarding the motive in Episode 5 (Spoiler)
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Poltergust wrote:
Macbeth wrote:
tl;dr
Er... what does tham mean?
"Too long:didn't read"
I'm pretty sure that Morgan never gave the letter to Pearl. She hid it on the Fey mansion over a year before the incident, that's about 2-2 (before she was sent to prison). Then, when she thought it was her time to revenge, told Pearl where to find it.
Re: Regarding the motive in Episode 5 (Spoiler)
Idol of Polar Bears
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Poltergust wrote:
Macbeth wrote:
tl;dr
Er... what does tham mean?
Anyways, my opinion has already been said. Godot wanted a chance to kill Dahlia, so he let it happen.
'Cept, Dahlia was already dead.
AM I THE ONLY ONE WHO SEES A PROBLEM HERE?
Re: Regarding the motive in Episode 5 (Spoiler)
A Kodac moment.
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Re: Regarding the motive in Episode 5 (Spoiler)
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Aijiru wrote:
Poltergust wrote:
Macbeth wrote:
tl;dr
Er... what does tham mean?
"Too long:didn't read"
I'm pretty sure that Morgan never gave the letter to Pearl. She hid it on the Fey mansion over a year before the incident, that's about 2-2 (before she was sent to prison). Then, when she thought it was her time to revenge, told Pearl where to find it.
That's what I recall. She just told where Pearl can find it when the time is right. However, what does it mean her final wish? Did she tell Pearl about it shortly she was executed or did she meant this is the last thing she wants her daughter to do?
As for the Godot issue, I think I finally understand why he would what he did in 3-5. Somewhere in the end of the chapter, he said that the posion in his coffee not only damaged his body, but also damaged his Central Nervous System. With the addition of him drinking a lot of coffee and him being a coma for all these years, his brain may be severly damaged to the point of thinkin clearly.
Something's been bothering me about Misty Fey. I think it might be a contradiction in story, but if what they said is true in AA2-2, whereas powerful Spirit Mediums can control the spirits they call in to prevent them from attacking others, why didn't Misty Fey prevent Dahila from attacking Maya?
The only thing I can theorize is that Dahila's aura is probably so negative that even Misty cannot control. However, that is just speculation.
Re: Regarding the motive in Episode 5 (Spoiler)
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That's my two-cents on the matter.
Last edited by Mr. Bear Jew on Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Regarding the motive in Episode 5 (Spoiler)
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Hmm... They never really said how a powerful spirit medium would prevent a spirit to kill, have they? I just realized that it probably meant that strong Spirit Mediums had the power to regain their own body if some bad was about to happen like say killing someone. It is possible that Misty Fey knew that she couldn't regain her body since there is a chance that Pearl might summon Dahlia if she did such a thing. Pearl is a determined person and like you said, Dahila had nothing else to do, but to kill Maya. Because the first time didn't work for Pearl, she would try as much as possible to summon Dahlia to make her mother happy. She may even call Dahlia when everyone let their guard down and seeing how Dahlia is written as an intelligent character, she would find someway in killing Maya, such as posioning the food when no one is looking. From what I gathered from Godot's dialogue at the end of the game, it seems that he and Misty had a backup plan if things went bad, which is to kill Misty. Knowing that Godot is hiding close by, Misty decided to let things happen and have Godot kill her.
Lastly, I thought it was clever that Dahlia was summoned by the person she intends to kill and realized it late. If she was to find out before the court trial and during the investigation, she would kill herself.
Re: Regarding the motive in Episode 5 (Spoiler)
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Why didn't Misty channel Dahlia after locking herself in a closet/trunk/Sacred Cavern?
Why didn't Godot destroy the letter upon finding it?
Why didn't anyone think to tell Maya?
Godot started off as a great character. Throwing the first trial of case 2 to solidify his murder charge against Ron? Absolutely brilliant, and nothing like any of the von Karmas - not obsessed with a perfect record, but still imbued with a grim resolve to get a conviction. He goes from this... to the clusterfuck of bad logic in case 5.
Misty sure didn't help, either. She was the character I was most curious about throughout the entire series, and the letdown here was astounding. Everything she did was stupid and miscalculated, from taking Larry as an apprentice, to channeling Dahlia and giving her a clear shot at the Inner Temple.
The case would have been much more enjoyable if there had been a legitimate reason why Maya had to be able to complete her training undisturbed. The whole idea of making the player do something that they find distasteful (in this case, convicting Godot) would have been received much better if they didn't do it way, way better in case 2-4.
Re: Regarding the motive in Episode 5 (Spoiler)
nuuuuu, stoooooop
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Whodi wrote:
Misty sure didn't help, either. She was the character I was most curious about throughout the entire series, and the letdown here was astounding. Everything she did was stupid and miscalculated, from taking Larry as an apprentice, to channeling Dahlia and giving her a clear shot at the Inner Temple.
I've ranted enough about Godot, but Misty doesn't get off the hook, either! I'd like to give her the benefit of the doubt, and assume that Godot didn't tell her the whole plan before they got to Hazakurain. I'd like to think he only told her, "Come to this temple, Maya's life depends on it!" and by the time she understood what was happening, it was too late for her to do anything but agree to whatever Godot said. But...considering all the other stupid stuff she does in the case, I just can't believe that.
All she had to do in order to save her daughter's life was keep her eye on a 9 year old. Did she really think, "Hey Pearl, come to my room later" was going to work when she knew it meant Pearl would have to willingly disobey her mother...just to look at some picture books? You would think that Misty of all people would understand Morgan and the way she raises children better than that.
Iris probably could have done more, too, but I understand why she would be so reluctant to interfere. But Misty had no excuse. The idea that a mother would lie to her daughter and niece rather than simply tell them the truth and save their lives is just plain silly.
Re: Regarding the motive in Episode 5 (Spoiler)
Objection!
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Re: Regarding the motive in Episode 5 (Spoiler)
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Maybe,
and Misty thought this was the best way to tell Pearl about her mother's plan. They probably wanted to make sure that Pearl knows why not to call Dahlia in the future
Re: Regarding the motive in Episode 5 (Spoiler)
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So, by having Misty Fey dead and Godot arrestedm this impression stays longer in the young kid's mind.
Re: Regarding the motive in Episode 5 (Spoiler)
nuuuuu, stoooooop
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Doom Saber wrote:
Pearl is a child and if they say "Do not call the girl on the photo", Pearl may forget and call her at a later time.
So, by having Misty Fey dead and Godot arrestedm this impression stays longer in the young kid's mind.
So, by having Misty Fey dead and Godot arrestedm this impression stays longer in the young kid's mind.
Are you saying the only way to get through to Pearl is by getting people killed...? I really don't get it.
Pearl already knew that her mother had tried to get Maya in trouble before - she visited her in prison every month. If Godot had maybe slipped the information to Elise, or even Maya herself, any one of them could have explained to Pearl "What your mother wants to do is not a good thing." It would be hard on her, sure. But still preferable to putting all those lives in danger.
Re: Regarding the motive in Episode 5 (Spoiler)
Objection!
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Re: Regarding the motive in Episode 5 (Spoiler)
Objection!
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Re: Regarding the motive in Episode 5 (Spoiler)
Objection!
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Re: Regarding the motive in Episode 5 (Spoiler)
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Croik wrote:
Doom Saber wrote:
Pearl is a child and if they say "Do not call the girl on the photo", Pearl may forget and call her at a later time.
So, by having Misty Fey dead and Godot arrestedm this impression stays longer in the young kid's mind.
So, by having Misty Fey dead and Godot arrestedm this impression stays longer in the young kid's mind.
Are you saying the only way to get through to Pearl is by getting people killed...? I really don't get it.
Pearl already knew that her mother had tried to get Maya in trouble before - she visited her in prison every month. If Godot had maybe slipped the information to Elise, or even Maya herself, any one of them could have explained to Pearl "What your mother wants to do is not a good thing." It would be hard on her, sure. But still preferable to putting all those lives in danger.
Like the poster, Iris Wright said, it is to make the case interesting. Pearl also haS a strong bond with her mother. Even though she knew her mother framed Maya, she may think think Misty or whoever told her is lying, especially for not knowing them to well. For all she knows, she most likely thinks Godot is a badguy for saying bad things to Phoenix and goin head on with him in court. She seems to still believes in her mother after visiting her. I mean, Wright still tried to protect Dahlia even after learning she killed Doug Shallow and had him frame for it. Besides, if she thinks spilling curry/gravy on Misty's wallscroll is good for the clan, she probably would ignore ppl she barely knew about her mother and do it anyway.
Re: Regarding the motive in Episode 5 (Spoiler)
nuuuuu, stoooooop
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Doom Saber wrote:
Like the poster, Iris Wright said, it is to make the case interesting. Pearl also haS a strong bond with her mother. Even though she knew her mother framed Maya, she may think think Misty or whoever told her is lying, especially for not knowing them to well. For all she knows, she most likely thinks Godot is a badguy for saying bad things to Phoenix and goin head on with him in court. She seems to still believes in her mother after visiting her. I mean, Wright still tried to protect Dahlia even after learning she killed Doug Shallow and had him frame for it. Besides, if she thinks spilling curry/gravy on Misty's wallscroll is good for the clan, she probably would ignore ppl she barely knew about her mother and do it anyway.
But what if Godot had just passed the note on to Maya? Maybe Pearl wouldn't listen to Godot, but she would her cousin. Pearl's a loyal girl but she's not stupid.
Quote:
Not so much his skill in particular, but his entire demeanor dude. Nothing shook this guy. He radiated cool. :B Remember how much krunk he showed to Tigre and Franz? Nobody's ever been able to get in their faces like that before without consequences (or the at least the fear of them), not 'till he came around. VERY manly. *-* (...pearldoesn'tcount!)
I don't think I would say that, either. Godot has just as many sweating and "damage" sprites as every other prosecutor, and he used them plenty of times. Phoenix was able to nail him on several points, a few of which that should have been really obvious.
Like, in 3-3. Why would Godot put Armstrong on the stand to testify about "a giant mirror" in the restaurant, when obviously no such thing existed? He didn't even try to present evidence that it was there. I wish Phoenix would have just said, "Well, let's see this giant mirror!" The prosecution has just as much burden of proof as the defense--if the Judge had asked to see the mirror, what would he have done? Either it didn't occur to Godot that Armstrong was lying and therefore didn't prepare any evidence, or he purposefully coached Armstrong to give false testimony, without seeing the obvious contradictions it brought up. Either way, that doesn't make him a very good lawyer.
He stood up to Tigre, maybe, but he certainly botched the rest of his case.
Re: Regarding the motive in Episode 5 (Spoiler)
Do your best, Nick. Hee... hee... hee...
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I do agree that it was an iffy move on Godot's part. But if we assume Godot's M.O. is to "test" Phoenix, throwing unreliable witnesses out there makes more sense anyway.
Re: Regarding the motive in Episode 5 (Spoiler)
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Croik wrote:
Doom Saber wrote:
Like the poster, Iris Wright said, it is to make the case interesting. Pearl also haS a strong bond with her mother. Even though she knew her mother framed Maya, she may think think Misty or whoever told her is lying, especially for not knowing them to well. For all she knows, she most likely thinks Godot is a badguy for saying bad things to Phoenix and goin head on with him in court. She seems to still believes in her mother after visiting her. I mean, Wright still tried to protect Dahlia even after learning she killed Doug Shallow and had him frame for it. Besides, if she thinks spilling curry/gravy on Misty's wallscroll is good for the clan, she probably would ignore ppl she barely knew about her mother and do it anyway.
But what if Godot had just passed the note on to Maya? Maybe Pearl wouldn't listen to Godot, but she would her cousin. Pearl's a loyal girl but she's not stupid.
But where is the fun of Godot spoiling the beans to Maya or Phoenix? It is possible in Diego's skewed mind that he wanted to help Maya by not letting Maya know, thus protecting her in the shadows and he probably didn't tell Phoenix is because he hates his guts.
Re: Regarding the motive in Episode 5 (Spoiler)
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Croik wrote:
Like, in 3-3. Why would Godot put Armstrong on the stand to testify about "a giant mirror" in the restaurant, when obviously no such thing existed?
There was evidence of a mirror. That's why.
I thought Godot came across as a brilliant lawyer, myself. It's not so much that Phoenix was able to floor him a few times--that was obvious--but the command he had over the courtroom in general. He had all the witnesses eating out of his hand, in situations where Fran or Edgeworth might have urked, he was cool as a cucumber. His objections were clear and on point...but more than that, he was fair. I loved that about him. The trickiest thing he did was in 3-2, and even then that wasn't manipulating evidence--that was allowing Phoenix to dig his own grave.
Re: Regarding the motive in Episode 5 (Spoiler)
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Quote:
Godot is a dumb ass with no iota of logic in his silly coffee-addicted brain!
...You Ass. We only need one Kenji around here. Croik, you aren't cut out to be a kenji. Even if that was a joke it hurts!
Re: Regarding the motive in Episode 5 (Spoiler)
Srsly... Being in love is so lovely ^_^
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That and he just likes to kill people.
Tis fun, you should try it some day
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I am A male And not Gay by the way...
Have had problems with that before so just cheking...
Re: Regarding the motive in Episode 5 (Spoiler)
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Re: Regarding the motive in Episode 5 (Spoiler)
Objection!
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Quote:
Godot did everything he did for Godot
'Tis debatable. Godot did put his life at risk to save Maya, albeit using questionable methods to do so. I would say myself he did things for Mia's memory, not for himself because what he did wouldn't benefit him in any way whatsoever.
Iris X Phoenix shipper!
Re: Regarding the motive in Episode 5 (Spoiler)
Srsly... Being in love is so lovely ^_^
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Iris_Wright wrote:
Quote:
Godot did everything he did for Godot
'Tis debatable. Godot did put his life at risk to save Maya, albeit using questionable methods to do so. I would say myself he did things for Mia's memory, not for himself because what he did wouldn't benefit him in any way whatsoever.
But he had to do stuff for maya's memorie because of it's psicological guilt.
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Have had problems with that before so just cheking...
Re: Regarding the motive in Episode 5 (Spoiler)
Objection!
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Re: Regarding the motive in Episode 5 (Spoiler)
Srsly... Being in love is so lovely ^_^
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Oh my... RITUALS FTW!
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Have had problems with that before so just cheking...
Re: Regarding the motive in Episode 5 (Spoiler)
nuuuuu, stoooooop
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musouka wrote:
There was evidence of a mirror. That's why.
I thought Godot came across as a brilliant lawyer, myself. It's not so much that Phoenix was able to floor him a few times--that was obvious--but the command he had over the courtroom in general. He had all the witnesses eating out of his hand, in situations where Fran or Edgeworth might have urked, he was cool as a cucumber. His objections were clear and on point...but more than that, he was fair. I loved that about him. The trickiest thing he did was in 3-2, and even then that wasn't manipulating evidence--that was allowing Phoenix to dig his own grave.
I thought Godot came across as a brilliant lawyer, myself. It's not so much that Phoenix was able to floor him a few times--that was obvious--but the command he had over the courtroom in general. He had all the witnesses eating out of his hand, in situations where Fran or Edgeworth might have urked, he was cool as a cucumber. His objections were clear and on point...but more than that, he was fair. I loved that about him. The trickiest thing he did was in 3-2, and even then that wasn't manipulating evidence--that was allowing Phoenix to dig his own grave.
But any evidence of the mirror was not presented in court. It wasn't at the scene, wasn't itself presented, there wasn't even a picture of it. Armstrong even admitted there was no such mirror, so how did Godot simply take Armstrong at his word that there was?
I don't think Godot "urked" any less than Edgeworth or Franziska. And even if he didn't try to cheat in court like others have, I still don't think he was very forthright in his job. After all, they imply that he saw through Tigre's "Phoenix disguise" before anyone else, and didn't do a thing about it. He had to have realized that if Maggey was being represented by a false lawyer, something fishy was going on (and that she might be innocent). But it doesn't seem like he even bothered to look into it, even though it would have cost him very little to do so.
The game can tell us he was a great defense attorney, so we can only assume he used to win a lot of cases. But I don't think he was a great prosecutor by any means.
Re: Regarding the motive in Episode 5 (Spoiler)
Objection!
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Quote:
Wait wait... Is killing a person great to honor the dead?
Oh my... RITUALS FTW!
Oh my... RITUALS FTW!
How silly. It's what he did to protect Maya we're talking about here, not the killing. Now that was stupid. I can't believe he killed "Dahlia" knowing she was dead.
Quote:
The game can tell us he was a great defense attorney, so we can only assume he used to win a lot of cases. But I don't think he was a great prosecutor by any means.
To be fair, he ws probably impartial and pretty good in the other cases he took. The only reason he did whatever he could to beat Phoenix was because he blamed him for Mia's death. That would've made him do some questionable things, so we can't judge how good he is as a prosecutor from the cases we see him in.
Iris X Phoenix shipper!
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