Re: Completely Evil characters. (Spoilers for all three games)
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Magmar's Fury wrote:
True, but the reason behind killing and the person who killed are really where people judge how right or wrong the murder is.
Absolutely. You'll get no qualms from me there.I'm just saying that "X-trait" doesn't automatically deem a person evil because there are exceptions; evil people--TRULY evil people can do good things; the bad may outweigh the good so much that the scale tips over, but there was still something in the good. Ugh, what did Kyle Hyde in H.D. say again, "People do stupid things but they always got a reason." or something like that.
I'm soooo confoozled.
Well, anyway, in my personal opinion, the most evil people in the trilogy here were Matt and Dahlia.
Too lazy... hur hur.
Re: Completely Evil characters. (Spoilers for all three games)
Like, totally.
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Engarde is bad, too.
Manfred, well... He's not evil because he prosecutes innocent people, that's his job, and he has to do that. However, his motive for killing Edgeworth's dad was bad.
Shellly is pure evil, and the whole "it's his job" one doesn't wash for him, because it's illegal, and prosecuting isn't.
Re: Completely Evil characters. (Spoilers for all three games)
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Shelly may be "nicer" than your average assassin, but in the end he's still killing innocent people for personal gain. That makes him just as bad as anyone else in the series.
Not that I'd call him "evil." I don't think I'd call any of the PW villains truly evil, because in the end they all still have some motive for their actions. I think true evil can only exist in the absense of that--killing someone just for the sake of doing it. I can't think of anyone in the series that qualifies in that sense.
Re: Completely Evil characters. (Spoilers for all three games)
Utter Nonsense
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Croik wrote:
I don't think I'd call any of the PW villains truly evil, because in the end they all still have some motive for their actions. I think true evil can only exist in the absense of that--killing someone just for the sake of doing it. I can't think of anyone in the series that qualifies in that sense.
It's really a matter of opinion, but I don't think I agree with that definition of "evil". I think most killers have a reason, it's just that some don't have a reason that we're willing to accept. I mean, from what I understand, a lot of serial killers kill because they need to feel powerful, or because they think they are on a mission from God, or because they think that people are sinners or unworthy. And those are all reasons, just not good ones.
I'm trying to think of any example I've ever heard of where a person killed someone for no reason at all, and I can't.
Unfortunately, I also can't currently think of a definition of "evil" that DOES work for me, so I guess my argument is going to fall a little flat. Whoops.
But I do agree that just because it's Shelly's job doesn't inherently make him not-evil. He chose to do it, and he seems to even sort of enjoy it.
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Re: Completely Evil characters. (Spoilers for all three games)
GearsoftheApparatus
Iris_Wright wrote:
To me, that is precisely why he is not evil. He kill due to a personal grudge or something, it's his job. It's all a matter of opinion. Anyway, hello fellow Aucklander -_-
Heh, that's exactly why I think that
is the most evil character. I find the fact that he kills people that haven't wronged him in anyway to absolutely abhorrent. I find it much more honourable to kill some that has done something to you that could go towards justifying the murder. It was also his choice to become an assassin, meaning he wanted to kill people. So to sum up; he kills for money, has no remorse, and he was not forced to kill anyone... that's textbook evil to me. >.>
And you're from Auckland? That's a rather erm, creepy coincidence.
Oh, and just for the record I remove my previous statement that von Karma is evil. I consider him to be insane, much like Dahlia and Morgan.
Re: Completely Evil characters. (Spoilers for all three games)
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And, yeah, Auckland FTW
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Re: Completely Evil characters. (Spoilers for all three games)
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n3m3sis42 wrote:
I mean, from what I understand, a lot of serial killers kill because they need to feel powerful, or because they think they are on a mission from God, or because they think that people are sinners or unworthy. And those are all reasons, just not good ones.
But that's just why I don't think you can argue that any "reason" for killing someone is inherently more evil than any other, because everyone has a different point of view and a different justification. The line between justifiable and not justifiable is too thin.
Like, Dee killed in self defense--if she hadn't fought back against Hammer, he might have killed her, and she's not really criminalized for that. But then you have Tigre--if he hadn't killed Glen and gotten MC Bomber from him, he probably would have been killed by the Cadaverinis. They're both examples of self preservation but obviously one is much more understandable than the other. Same motive, different degrees.
And even Matt was acting in self preservation, in a sense: if Juan had revealed his past to the world, Matt's career could have been over. I'm sure no one can say that his response to the threat of Juan was appropriate or excuseable, but it's that same "self preservation" motive again. I can't really call him "evil" because it's understandable that he would want to defend himself, he just chose a really horrible way of doing it.
I guess what it comes down to is I think "horrific" and "evil" are two very different things. Most of the PW villains are awful people, but I still can't think of them as evil.
Re: Completely Evil characters. (Spoilers for all three game
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I'm torn on my decision on whether Gant is "evil". He was motivated by self-interest the first time around, but was motivated by self-preservation the second time. He was going to get what he wanted anyway, but he got impatient and sped things up. Does his sense of justice in "coming up with evidence" to land crooks in jail make him redeemable somehow? Maybe by just the tiniest bit, but this dude obviously enjoys being in power and exercising it over everyone. Perhaps he really was the kinda hero the judge made him out to be, power corrupts, as they say. Still, what bothers me more was Gant's statement he only cared for himself, something he said quite blatantly in court.
Re: Completely Evil characters. (Spoilers for all three game
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Re: Completely Evil characters. (Spoilers for all three games)
Utter Nonsense
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Croik wrote:
But that's just why I don't think you can argue that any "reason" for killing someone is inherently more evil than any other, because everyone has a different point of view and a different justification. The line between justifiable and not justifiable is too thin.
I guess what I'm wondering is who *would* be evil by your definition. I just can't think of any example of a character in anything or a person in real life who truly killed for NO reason. I'm not trying to be a bitch (this time), I'm just really curious. Is there anyone you can think of in any context that killed for no reason at all? Because if not, wouldn't that mean that no one is ever truly evil? I mean, even people like Hitler had reasons.
I still can't really think of what I would define as evil. Because I don't think I agree with "someone who kills for no reason" for the reasons I mentioned. And I don't think I agree with "people who kill for an immoral reason" as a definition, for the reasons you stated here (how do you define an "immoral reason?). So that leaves me with "no one is ever evil", which I also don't like, because then what's the point of having such a concept at all?
Hmmmm.
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Re: Completely Evil characters. (Spoilers for all three games)
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Framing, to me, seems like almost as bad a crime as the murder. The majority of the murderers in the Phoenix Wright series framed someone to cover their own butts. They were ready to let someone else's life be behind bars for life, or executed over a crime they didn't committ. Also, the case of first degree, that they were planning to murder someone, shows that being able to kill someone wasn't as bad as a fit of rage or self-defense.
Ace Attorney
Frank Sawhit was going to let Larry Butz fry for something the crook did (the fact that Larry wanted to die afterwards... well, that's our Larry). Redd White planned to murder Mia Fey while spying on her, and wanted to have her little sister be sent to jail so he could continue his dishonest life. Dee Vasquez could have swept Jack Hammer's death under the rug too, but she instead choose to let Will Powers, one of the gentle and kind-hearted men in the game, rot in jail for what she had inadvertantly caused. Damon Gant framed Lana and Ema, Ema who was barely a teenager, for murdering two men who trusted him and worked under him.
Justice For All
Richard Wellington tried to have Maggey take the fall for his stupid mix-up that led to murder. Mimi Miney was trying to cover herself, because of her previous incompotence and wrecklessness that ended with many people, including her sister, dying; she planned out to murder Dr. Grey, and was going to frame Maya, who had never done anything to her, it just gave Mimi a scapegoat. Matt... well, we all know he is evil, even if he didn't do any killing; but we consider Hitler evil, and his forces were doing the mass murder and genocide, much like Matt had Shelley do his dirty work for him.
Trials and Tribulations
Dahlia four times framed someone so they'd rot in jail for all their life instead of her, and murdered two people, one first and one second. Tigre killed someone for money (even though, to be kind, he needed it desperately for reasons that weren't his fault), and went great lengths to ensure Maggey would pay for his sins.
***
In my humble POV, I think the act of framing someone for the worst crime is basically an extension, one almost as bad. Some of the murders don't quite fall into this, like Acro, who never meant to frame Max and considered turning himself in; Yanni's life was ruined by John Hammond, and he was led to believe Edgeworth was responsible for the crime he was framed for; Luke and his 'partner' were being blackmailed, and after killed the man, Luke tried to get Ron sentenced for a much light crime by testifying he was robbing some other place, rather than the scene of the murder. And from my point of view, Godot saw the woman who 'killed' him, and since very very few of us could understand how that is, I can hardly fault him for losing his mind.
Well... whacha think?
Re: Completely Evil characters. (Spoilers for all three games)
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That's my opinion at least
Not having anyone you trust is truly sad.
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Re: Completely Evil characters. (Spoilers for all three games)
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n3m3sis42 wrote:
I guess what I'm wondering is who *would* be evil by your definition. I just can't think of any example of a character in anything or a person in real life who truly killed for NO reason. I'm not trying to be a bitch (this time), I'm just really curious. Is there anyone you can think of in any context that killed for no reason at all? Because if not, wouldn't that mean that no one is ever truly evil? I mean, even people like Hitler had reasons.
That's kind of what I was getting at, actually. I don't really believe most humans are capable of "evil" in the way the word is meant. I feel like it implies that there's no possible excuse for the action in question. If at least one person gains from it, how can it be completely evil? That's how I see it, anyway.
Re: Completely Evil characters. (Spoilers for all three games)
GearsoftheApparatus
Croik wrote:
n3m3sis42 wrote:
I guess what I'm wondering is who *would* be evil by your definition. I just can't think of any example of a character in anything or a person in real life who truly killed for NO reason. I'm not trying to be a bitch (this time), I'm just really curious. Is there anyone you can think of in any context that killed for no reason at all? Because if not, wouldn't that mean that no one is ever truly evil? I mean, even people like Hitler had reasons.
That's kind of what I was getting at, actually. I don't really believe most humans are capable of "evil" in the way the word is meant. I feel like it implies that there's no possible excuse for the action in question. If at least one person gains from it, how can it be completely evil? That's how I see it, anyway.
I too believe that no human is capable of being truly evil. Although my definition is a wee bit different.
Re: Completely Evil characters. (Spoilers for all three games)
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Anyway, I think it is possible for someone to be truly evil, when said person commits crimes for no one except himself/herself. That is true selfishness, and makes a person evil as he is doing things purely for his own benefit and no one else's.
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Re: Completely Evil characters. (Spoilers for all three games)
GearsoftheApparatus
Iris_Wright wrote:
When did this become a philosophical debate about evil? Anyway, I think it is possible for someone to be truly evil, when said person commits crimes for no one except himself/herself. That is true selfishness, and makes a person evil as he is doing things purely for his own benefit and no one else's.
Anyway, I think it is possible for someone to be truly evil, when said person commits crimes for no one except himself/herself. That is true selfishness, and makes a person evil as he is doing things purely for his own benefit and no one else's.I once stole an apple from my neighbour's apple tree, and I was only doing it for myself. ._.
Am I evil? ;_:
Re: Completely Evil characters. (Spoilers for all three games)
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Quote:
I once stole an apple from my neighbour's apple tree, and I was only doing it for myself. ._.
Am I evil? ;_:
Am I evil? ;_:
-_- I'm not even going to dignify that with a response. If you really want one, YES YOU ARE EVIL
Really, I think you know what I mean by crimes. Murder, framing others etc... those are crimes. Stealing an apple is well...kinda small -_-
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Re: Completely Evil characters. (Spoilers for all three games)
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Iris_Wright wrote:
When did this become a philosophical debate about evil? Anyway, I think it is possible for someone to be truly evil, when said person commits crimes for no one except himself/herself. That is true selfishness, and makes a person evil as he is doing things purely for his own benefit and no one else's.
Anyway, I think it is possible for someone to be truly evil, when said person commits crimes for no one except himself/herself. That is true selfishness, and makes a person evil as he is doing things purely for his own benefit and no one else's.But if you kill someone in self defense, aren't you also doing that only for yourself? You're putting your right to live above that of someone else's.
I didn't mean to make this a debate, I just wanted to say why I don't think any of the PW characters are "evil".
Re: Completely Evil characters. (Spoilers for all three games)
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Croik wrote:
That's kind of what I was getting at, actually. I don't really believe most humans are capable of "evil" in the way the word is meant. I feel like it implies that there's no possible excuse for the action in question. If at least one person gains from it, how can it be completely evil? That's how I see it, anyway.
Ah, well that's fair, then. Even if I don't know that I entirely agree with you, it's obviously a perfectly valid opinion. Thanks for taking the time to explain.
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Re: Completely Evil characters. (Spoilers for all three games)
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Re: Completely Evil characters. (Spoilers for all three games)
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Re: Completely Evil characters. (Spoilers for all three game
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Re: Completely Evil characters. (Spoilers for all three games)
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Re: Completely Evil characters. (Spoilers for all three games)
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why is engarde more evil than all the others?
and why are people doubting dahlias evilness?
evil:
> 
> 
> 
> 
depending on motive,how many ppl were killed and so on
explanation:
karma killed many ppl with forged evidence and destroyed lives in court for a perfect record
redd blackmailed many ppl and brought them to suicide for money
Dahlia killed many ppl, wanted to kill the love of her twin sister, left her twin sister at a mountain, Godot... everything was selfish
morgan she wanted to kill ppl just to be the main family
badger oh come on hes just gotta be evil..or on drugs
again
shelly de killer was a mere tool like a weapon and allthough he did kill for money he didnt even know the victims...if it wouldnt be for shelly ppl may have died in a more painfull way
Re: Completely Evil characters. (Spoilers for all three game
GearsoftheApparatus
Quote:
shelly de killer was a mere tool like a weapon and allthough he did kill for money he didnt even know the victims...if it wouldnt be for shelly ppl may have died in a more painfull way
-__-
You could use a similar in an attempt to justify the actions of various genocidal dictators.
And I doubt think I'm going to see anyone trying to say that Hitler and Pol Pot aren't evil as a human can possibly get.
Karma isn't evil in my eyes, because he was absolutely insane. He got so absorbed in his win record that nothing mattered, he was nothing but a shell of himself.
Same thing with Morgan, if her husband hadn't have left her, nothing would have happened. Dahlia would have most likely grown up as a normal person, as well.
So, Morgan's husband is the most evil character. >_>
Re: Completely Evil characters. (Spoilers for all three games)
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Re: Completely Evil characters. (Spoilers for all three games)
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Re: Completely Evil characters. (Spoilers for all three game
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Re: Completely Evil characters. (Spoilers for all three games)
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Re: Completely Evil characters. (Spoilers for all three game
GearsoftheApparatus
Re: Completely Evil characters. (Spoilers for all three games)
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Re: Completely Evil characters. (Spoilers for all three games)
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It's Ron DeLite!
He claimed to steal a sacred urn! EEEEEVIIIIIL! >_>... Ok, more seriously now. XD;;
Spoiler: Major spoilers for all of T&T
And I'd probably rank Matt Enguarde in as second.
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Re: Completely Evil characters. (Spoilers for all three game
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Spoiler:
And as a poster said, Morgan didnt really *care* about Pearls.
Nick and Maya - Friends and Lovers....
Re: Completely Evil characters. (Spoilers for all three games)
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Re: Completely Evil characters. (Spoilers for all three games)
GearsoftheApparatus
grim_tales wrote:
Characters who I think are pure evil are
And as a poster said, Morgan didnt really *care* about Pearls.
Spoiler:
And as a poster said, Morgan didnt really *care* about Pearls.
von Karma became obsessed with his perfect win record to the point where nothing else mattered... he isn't evil, just a little insane.
Same thing with Morgan, her husband leaving her absolutely crushed her. The only thing she could think about was becoming the main family, as her failure to do so was what ruined her life. Morgan was never herself after that incident.
By the way, why are we using spoiler tags? It's clearly outlined in the topic title that there are going to be large spoilers throughout. :S
Re: Completely Evil characters. (Spoilers for all three games)
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Croik wrote:
I'm just amused that everyone keeps defending Shelly by saying, "It's just his job!" as if he didn't pick out and plan his profession in the first place. If I choose to make kicking puppies my job, and people pay me to do it, yeah, they're pretty horrible for asking me to do it. But I'd say that makes me a pretty sick person to even ask people to give me money to kick puppies.
Shelly may be "nicer" than your average assassin, but in the end he's still killing innocent people for personal gain. That makes him just as bad as anyone else in the series.
Shelly may be "nicer" than your average assassin, but in the end he's still killing innocent people for personal gain. That makes him just as bad as anyone else in the series.
That's just how his character was set up... Someone who thinks he is just doing his job, no remorse, but a honourable person who will do everything to protect his "client" with whom he has a contract. The entire funny thing about case 2.4 is that Shelly isn't actually evil, he just thinks he is a professional who highly values the quality of his services and not a wicked murderer.
Croik wrote:
Not that I'd call him "evil." I don't think I'd call any of the PW villains truly evil, because in the end they all still have some motive for their actions. I think true evil can only exist in the absense of that--killing someone just for the sake of doing it. I can't think of anyone in the series that qualifies in that sense.
What about Engarde? He did it for his public image, for his own ego... But that's less of an understandable motive than Von Karma's (his obsessive perfectionism and insanity), Morgan's (how useless she felt after being weaker than Misty and becoming a branch family), etc. I'd say Engarde was truly evil.
Re: Completely Evil characters. (Spoilers for all three game
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Re: Completely Evil characters. (Spoilers for all three games)
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Morgan was dishonored, Dahlia was unloved, etc.
Re: Completely Evil characters. (Spoilers for all three games)
GearsoftheApparatus
Louis wrote:
Matt was the most evil for me, because he didn't have any reason, per se, to become EVILLLLL.
Morgan was dishonored, Dahlia was unloved, etc.
Morgan was dishonored, Dahlia was unloved, etc.
He has some rather nasty scars on his face... really, being so severely disfigured is enough to make any reasonable man into a homicidal sociopath.
Re: Completely Evil characters. (Spoilers for all three games)
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GearsoftheApparatus wrote:
Louis wrote:
Matt was the most evil for me, because he didn't have any reason, per se, to become EVILLLLL.
Morgan was dishonored, Dahlia was unloved, etc.
Morgan was dishonored, Dahlia was unloved, etc.
He has some rather nasty scars on his face... really, being so severely disfigured is enough to make any reasonable man into a homicidal sociopath.
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