Like I'd remember something from the beginning of that case.

Well, maybe Morgan figured Phoenix couldn't say no to both Maya and Pearl. If he decided not to go in the end, well, I guess that would have made things a lot simpler for everyone.

I haven't played through in a while, but am I correct in recalling Godot saying Iris' role in the plan was supposed to be to take the rap for murder if something went wrong?

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I think it was that Iris was the "backup plan" in case something went wrong... and something did.

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Yeah, Iris was there to take the fall if things went wrong or help clean things up (because we wouldn't want Godot or Misty to take responsibility for their actions...*deep breath*). I assumed if they had to kill Pearl to stop Dahlia from killing Maya, then Iris would take the blame.

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Hey, you still feel bad for just trying to help the two most important people in your life all those years ago, right? Well, I have a dumb plan that will almost certainly end in at least one person dying, so if you agree to take the blame for it, I'll consider everything forgiven.


fjsaklfhdalgajklf That's just awful beyond words.

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*laughs* I imagine he'd rephrase it some, but I'd say that sounds about right. Although I doubt he ever mentioned Phoenix by name. As I said, Godot had no reason to believe Phoenix and Iris were connected. He could have pieced together that Iris was involved with Dahlia somehow (Godot as his alter ego had been researching Dahlia's original crime with Mia). Iris confessed pretty easily to Edgeworth that she had sins to pay for, she just wouldn't detail what they were and she only mentions that Phoenix was involved after he brings up the issue of how they know each other. Godot would have no reason to bring Phoenix into a conversation with Iris). I agree it was a horrible thing to do, but Godot's judgement was so warped by this time that he probably didn't think about it (with this plan, I have trouble believing he thought about anything).

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I understood this to mean that the government kept close tabs on her, but not necessarily the other way round. Godot's wording was something like 'we knew where she was at all times', if I remember correctly.

Misty showed that sword to Godot before she knew anything about the plan, I think. I highly doubt that Misty was ready to murder Pearl - this is one point you seem a little too obsessed with. They were clearly too blind/stupid to plan contingencies that far ahead - the sword was simply for an 'emergency'. She had that sword long before Godot approached her for his crazy plan, and she showed it to him to illustrate how far she was ready to go to protect Maya. However, it still confuses me how she would protect anyone while being cooped up at Hazakura Temple.

I think exonerating her at the end was mainly meant to make the player feel less bad about her death, because she was prepared for it, after all. I honestly don't think that 'Ultimate Price' meant anything else than her own life. Pearl's life is not a price she is allowed to pay - it doesn't fit under the definition.

I think I'm going to have to play the case again... the more I read here, the less sense it makes. I think the designers stretched their limits a little too far while plotting out this case.


Quizer

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Possibly it was the government keeping tabs on her, but she still abandoned her daughters for nineteen years and had it not bee for this she would probably never have returned. Also, Godot says something like the Master had always had a close relationship with the government which I took to mean that the situation was mutual.



The sword was an emergency for what? Godot states that the sword shows how far she was willing to go to protect Maya from Morgan. How was the only way Misty was ever going to use that sword to protect Maya from Morgan? If Pearl channeled Dahlia. That was how Morgan's plan threatened Maya's life. Then Misty would have had to act to protect her daughter's life, but this meant killing her niece. Bringing a weapon without a purposes or without intent to use it is simply stupid and reckless. She brought it beause she would go to any lengths to protect Maya, even if it cost Pearl her life ("the ultimate price"). Pearl would be the only one to be struck down by it because it was her who would originally be channeling Dahlia. As for being there, it was not an accident. Godot says he contacted both of his accomplices (Misty and Iris) well ahead of time so that they could be ready to counter Morgan's plan. Misty brought that sword with intent and came there to protect Maya. In the end, she couldn't bring herself to take a nine year olds life, so she channels Dahlia which keeps Pearl out of everything since Pearl could not channel Dahlia while Misty was doing so.

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If Pearl was to channel Dahlia before Elise could, and there was NO POSSIBLE WAY to avoid a confrontation between Maya and Dahlia, than I assume that the staff was to be used on Pearl anyways, despite the reprocussions... and I don't think I spelled that last word right.

But still, the plan was overly flawed. I still believe that Godot and Elise should've just made sure that magazine with Iris' picture in it, never reached Phoenix.



Words cannot descripe how ungodly flawed, yet true, that term is.

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Guess it's possible that it's mutual, but somehow I don't believe that Misty exercised those ties a lot during her exile... What would she be using for? She obviously didn't tap into them to deal with Morgan.

And that Misty and Godot have acted stupidly and recklessly has already been amply proven.

No, Pearl's life is not hers to pay, and I don't think she was so ruthless and cold as not to understand that. I understand your theory that she brought the sword to use on Pearl channeling Dahlia, but I don't agree with it. 'Stupid and reckless' already fits the bill quite well, no need to add ruthlessness or malice to the mix.

I'm going to have to play through the game again. This harebrained scheme adds so many problems into the mix... I doubt that this is how we are supposed to interpret these characters... The plotwriters overburdened themselves with this one. But how can I deal with that in fanfiction, if I don't want to accuse Misty of boundless stupidity? I'm quite ready to take her to task for abandoning everyone after DL-6 and for refusing to trust Phoenix and Maya over Godot, but knowing about the stupidity of the plan and possibly even calculating to sacrifice Pearl isn't how I want to display her. It's too much to forgive and I want to view her more favorably than that. I'd like to blame it all on Godot and his "let's try to out-plot them so I can shine" complex, if possible.


Quizer

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And so begins the trial of The Forum vs. Elise Deauxnim and Godot... Was their plan flawed from the start?

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How was Misty willing to pay her life with the sword? It was clearly with Misty and it was supposed to symbolize what she was willing to do to protect Maya. Channeling Dahlia was clearly a last minute decision. Misty would have lost her sense of self while channeling Dahlia (Misty was the Master. She would have known this). So how was the sword going to protect Maya? If it was used on Pearl. You may not like the answer (I know I don't), but its really the only thing that makes sense. If not for the reason I stated, what was the sword for and how was it going to protect Maya from Morgan? Godot clearly states that Misty brought the sword with her and showed it to him. It was this that made him realize how far she was willing to go to protect Maya (except face her daughter apparently).

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I think THAT has been established. The plan is made of epic phail. But why would Misty go along with it? She must have been more cracked after DL-6 than everyone thought if she let her judgment be affected like this. Maybe Godot just blabbed at her with stupid coffee metaphors until she agreed to do whatever he wanted?


Quizer

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To protect her daughter in what appears to have been the most stupid and selfish way possible apparently. And yes, the plan was horribly flawed from the beginning.

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Last edited by Mia_Fey on Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Her sword was meant to stab Pearl.

There... I'm not gonna keep being vague.

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The sword wasn't meant for the contingency that Pearl would channel Dahlia. How hard is that to understand? She showed that sword to Godot on their first meeting, before they worked out the details of the plan.

As for Misty idiotically bringing the sword along when the shit went down, did she know what to expect? Could something have happened where she might have needed the sword without using it on Pearl?

I wonder why no one tried to incapacitate Dahlia. It couldn't have been that hard, she didn't even have a gun on her. But that's just one more thing that's wrong with the execution of a plan that was doomed to fail from the start. Most of it goes on Godot's head because he left Morgan's instructions in place, allowing Pearl to read and memorize them.


Quizer

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Quizer, I have a question:

What do you mean by the final line? "I wonder why no one tried to incapacitate Dahlia"?

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One way to foil the plan was to catch Dahlia and subdue her, forcing her to abandon the body or suffer through the capture. We know that Godot was too whacked in that moment in the inner temple garden to strike an incapacitating blow, but it would have been a possibility for different contingencies. Shadow Pearl, let her channel Dahlia, and then capture her before she can do anything.

But the plan shouldn't ever even have progressed as far for that to be a possibility.


Quizer

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I have a bit of a problem with that:

Dahlia wouldn't have left the body if she didn't have to... my opinion: She would've threatened to kill the "host".

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You are obviously a very forgiving person, but Godot says that she showed the sword to him when she arrived at the Temple before the incident and not right at the beginning from their first meeting (the picture at that time is in the Main Hall with Misty dressed in a acolytes clothes. This picture is from a memory while Godot is confessing so we can likely trust it. Bikini had clearly never met her before as it was at their first meeting Misty identified herself with the pendant so they weren't simply meeting there all along. They were at Hazakurain because that is were this was going to happen, so they gathered there before Maya and Pearl arrived). We don't even know that they met before that. A phone works just fine to make a plan this stupid and we don't know where Misty has been hiding for nineteen years.

This was how he knew how far she was willing to go to protect Maya. You still haven't answered how that sword shows how far she was willing to go to protect Maya from Morgan. What did she plan to strike down with it (even if they had decided later it wasn't necessary)? Morgan was in jail and Dahlia was dead (Misty had to know this). What did Misty mean to use the sword for then and on whom? Why show it to him if she never intended to use it and if they had decided against using it then why did she have it? She shows it to Godot and he says "That's a pretty sword. What are you planning to do with it?" "Oh nothing." "Leave it at home then." Even if she arrived at the temple without details, she could have safely disposed of it in many safe ways. Misty doesn't even get rid of it when dealing with everyone. Had she brought it along by accident, then why not leave it in her room. It is just stupid and dangerous to be carrying it if she had no intention of using it and it isn't like she couldn't have gotten rid of it safely. But she doesn't leave it safely in her room or in Iris's room or even give it to Bikini for safe keeping. She carries it with her the entire time. Misty clearly knew that Pearl was supposed to channel Dahlia because she tries to distract Pearl so she can't and then channels Dahlia herself so Pearl can't. She does this because she knows if Pearl channels Dahlia, she will have to die. Why the urgency to channel Dahlia herself, if she didn't realize that Pearl would have to die if she successfully channeled Dahlia?

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Lets be honest... Pearl would still want to go, no matter what Maya says... But contacting Phoenix and Maya might've helped this...

Or as I said before.... taking all the mags.

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But Iris hadn't done anything with Dahlia until after Diego went into his coma. Assuming Godot did find out about Iris' involvement in the necklace retrieval plot, he had to have known Phoenix was at the center of it all.

Taking things a step further, how could Godot have learned about that anyway? Edgeworth tried to find information about Iris and came up completely empty, and only two people knew the truth about the necklace incident (possibly three if Iris had confided in Bikini); none of them had any reason to confess to Godot.

And I have a possible answer for why Misty was carrying a sword around; it would look suspicious if Godot or Iris were caught with it. There was obviously no way Dahlia could have know Misty's staff had a blade in it, so if things came down to that last resort, there was practically no chance of Dahlia using it.

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At the very least, Dahlia claimed that Iris was supposed to help with the fake kidnapping even if she didn't show up. In all that time, is it really possible that Diego never once went to visit the crime scene. There he would have likely met a girl who looked strikingly like the one he was pursuing. At the very least, he would have suspected Iris and Dahlia were connected. Iris's guilty conscience does the rest. All Godot would have to do is offer Iris the opportunity to make up for her own sins (whether or not her knew exactly what her sins wasn't important. It's likely he would suspect Iris of having aided her sister. The location of the crime to the temple is simply too much of a coincidence to have been one). "Don't you want to make up for all the people who were hurt by your sister when you failed to stop her?" Godot would have known all the things that had happened afterward, but he didn't specifically need to know that she was related to Phoenix somehow.

As for the staff, a last resort for what? What did she plan to use it for? The threat was coming from Dahlia who would be channeled by Pearl. Pearl is the only one who would fall victim to the staff no matter who was holding it. Godot was hiding (and no one found him so his hiding spot was obviously good). If he isn't found, then its not suspicious. No one was looking for Godot because he wasn't supposed to be there.

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I don't know, I find it a little difficult to believe someone who went around all through the entire last case would open up and confess to Godot just because he hints that he might possibly know what she did...

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.... I doubt she would even say everything to Maya, let alone Godot.

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She didn't have to tell him anything. Just agree to help. Her guilty conscience does the rest. I don't believe Godot knew about her real motivation, just that she felt bad enough about something to be willing to help.

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That doesn't make sense, either. Godot wouldn't ask Iris to help him unless he had at least a reasonable grasp on what really happened five years prior. If I were in Godot's shoes (god help me), after waking up from a five-year coma, the last person I'd be going to for help is someone who looks like Dahlia Hawthorne.

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But Iris wasn't Dahlia and at this point he knew at least that much, but she did feel guilty which doesn't take a lot to figure out. Godot needed either Iris or Bikini for someone who knew the area to help arrange things. He knows Iris was involved with Dahlia (how much he knows is impossible to figure out). Remember Iris's role was limited. How much did he trust Iris? Her role was to clean up after them (and take the blame apparently), but not to physically help protect Maya as far as we know.

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Phoenix had an accurate grasp on the situation. Godot couldn't prove the connection between Iris and the mass murderer that poisoned him. Based on his eyesight alone, I'm willing to bet he thought the same thing that was running through Phoenix's mind upon first seeing her. That kind of example is enough to reopen a dead man's wounds.

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How could Godot be so sure Iris was being genuine? Of course he knew Iris and Dahlia were different people, but even so, they're twins. Dahlia was very good at her sweet-and-innocent act, so that had to be in Godot's mind.

Also, saving him from the murder rap is a pretty important role if you ask me.

Somehow Godot found out about Iris and Phoenix and used that. I have no idea how, but that's the only thing that makes sense to me. If Iris' sole motivation was that she felt bad enough about not stopping Dahlia to let herself be blamed for murder, which is an almost guaranteed death sentence, why wouldn't she have just committed suicide after 3-1? She would have had that guilt fresh in her mind along with the pain of losing her sister and never being able to see Phoenix again.

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Then why wouldn't he warn her that Phoenix would be there? That seems like a big deal to me for someone who has been avoiding him for years. She was clearly shocked.

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Why would he warn her? If Godot cared about Iris, he wouldn't be asking her to take the fall for murder.

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Your points are well made and while I'm not convinced, I'll concede the possibility that Godot knew about the connection between Phoenix and Iris.

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Coming from you, I consider that quite the compliment.

(We need an Edgeworth or Franziska bowing emoticon.)

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It's a last resort, a hidden weapon that can be carried around at any time without risk. It doesn't need an immediate purpose. Why is carrying it around with her stupid?

I think maybe she showed that thing to Godot as a warning. A warning of how serious she was about protecting Maya. That she wouldn't hesitate to use it on him either if he didn't prove trustworthy. Not that she followed through on it very well, but she did pay with her life for her part in that stupidity of a plan.

And even having the weapon and facing Pearl channeling Dahlia, Misty still has the option to not use it and let Dahlia take her life instead of taking Pearl's. The weapon was an extra option, nothing more. I refute your claim that its presence means Misty seriously considered sacrificing Pearl, especially as an 'ultimate price'.




Quizer

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Godot said that it showed the risk she was willing to take to protect Maya. I don't think she would've threatened Godot though... they both wanted to protect Maya. For different reasons, sure... but they still had the same goal.

And my opinion on the weapon: She didn't think of simply hiding it or something beforehand. Lets be honest: Dahlia ended up using it anyways, right? Sure, not for stabbing, but she still managed to cause a nice lil' bump on Maya's head... Still, again, you'd think that she would be able to figure out something in the pre-determined plan is amiss when she's not in Pearls' body and there's a staff next to her...

Also, Quizer, you mean to say at the final line, "Dahlia to be inside Elise instead of Pearl", correct?... you mean... Elise channeling Dahlia BEFORE Pearl, right?

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No, I mean it like I wrote it. I'm talking about a hypothetical situation here... which is what Mia_Fey's whole 'that sword was for killing Pearl' argument is about.


Quizer

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I agree with Wrestle that threatening Godot doesn't make sense as a reason. They were on the same side and if that was why she had it then I can't see Godot permitting her to carry it. He had complete control throughout this entire thing and had seen her with it. It was "to show how far she would go to protect Maya from Morgan." She didn't need protection from Godot (well maybe from his insanity but it doesn't make sense that the sword was for that. Misty had clearly agreed to go along with the plan).

Misty ended up not using the sword because she in a panic she channels Dahlia herself. Why the panic to channel Dahlia? That clearly wasn't apart of the plan because Godot didn't even realize she had done so and to be holding a weapon when she planned to channel Dahlia is worse than reckless. She would be arming Dahlia. She knew that if she didn't then Pearl would and Pearl would die either at her hands or Godot's. If Misty simply let Dahlia take her life, then Maya dies as well. What was all this about if not protecting Maya? Dahlia would not simply say close enough. She wanted Maya dead. Misty had already sworn that she would protect her daughter even if it meant "the ultimate price." Simply standing there while Dahlia cut her down makes no senses in the context. She would be dead, Maya would be dead, Godot might well be dead, and depending on Dahlia's mood she might well cut down Pearl herself (she was not fond of her mother and might well have thought that screwing over her mother was a fun idea). All this would happen while she had the perfect weapon to stop all this. Not a chance Misty let's all this occur (particularly Maya's death) while she has the means to stop it.

She brings the weapon and Godot states that it shows how far she is willing to go. This signals that she brought it for a reason. As Wrestle said, the sword was also a staff which Dahlia did at least use to knock Maya over the head and it could have killed her if struck hard enough. It could have also been used to knock Maya and Godot both out and that makes it very easy to kill them. I still hold that carrying the weapon means it must have had a reason particularly in such a dangerous situation. If there was no purpose then it was another possible tool for Dahlia (which makes carrying it a reckless risk as it could be used against the very person she was trying to protect) and we are told that Misty was willing to use it. What they don't specify is what she was willing to use it on, except that there was only one person who posed an immediate threat to Maya's life. That person was Pearl.

I'm tired of arguing. Tell me what "the ultimate price" was in reference that that staff which is the statement was aimed at because it clearly wasn't Misty's life as her channeling Dahlia was a last minute thing (having nothing to do with staff) and that Misty planned on allowing herself to be killed by Dahlia/Pearl doesn't make sense (particularly in the context of the ultimate price because Misty held the staff). You might remember that willing isn't the same as doing, so if this defense of Misty is about the fic you mentioned, Misty is not completely unforgivable. It's easy to say that you are willing to do something, but far harder to actually go through with the action. Plenty of people forgive Godot for his actions, but most don't deny that he did them. The staff was clearly being carried for a reason; the game tells us that much for a fact. Misty would use that sword to protect Maya from Morgan even if it meant the ultimate price. This much we are told as a solid fact. Misty was willing to kill Pearl originally perhaps, but in the end she couldn't kill Pearl so she channels Dahlia with the hopes that Godot would protect Maya. I doubt she believed she would die because as far as we know Godot didn't have a weapon, but she does put her life on the line to protect Pearl. While I think this is all true, I think the fact that she was originally willing to kill Pearl is undeniable. She simply couldn't do so in the end.

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How does giving Dahlia a piece of wood arm her? Dahlia didn't know about the hidden sword feature, so it's not a mistake to channel her while carrying it. Godot also knowing about that feature is what causes her to end up skewered by it.

Showing Godot the sword was a gesture, meant to show merely that she was serious about protecting Maya, however that was supposed to manifest later on. The sword itself didn't need an immediate purpose.

Why can't it be her own life that was meant as the ultimate price? I think that she might have considered the possibility that her own life could be on the line at some point, and that is exactly what happened. I think the idea that the 'ultimate price' is Pearl's life is ridiculous. I've said before that Pearl's life is not something Misty owns and thus is able to 'pay'. The imagery doesn't fit. That quote was clearly put in the game with Misty's own life in mind.

I'm tired of this argument, too. I don't know why you insist on this rigid interpretation of events. You've gathered a lot of different circumstantial evidence. I can't present a counter-theory as cool as yours, and my memory's too bad to argue effectively about the details of the case. But you'll forgive me if I don't believe that she seriously considered sacrificing Pearl's life as part of the (contingency) plan.


Quizer

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Then the argument is done. You have your interpretation and I have mine. If I upset you in the debate I'm sorry. That was never my intention (I got a bit too into the debate I guess). Everything is good now, I hope.

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Yeah. At least we can still agree to disagree. :)

I just wish the plan wasn't that idiotic and full of holes in the first place. At the point where Misty has to face Dahlia channeled by anyone, things are already hopeless. And the way it turned out, with her channeling Dahlia herself isn't particularly great either. They should never have allowed Pearl out of their sight in the first place.


Quizer

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