Phoenix Wright is likely one of the best translated games to this day. However, that doesn't mean there arn't any flaws. Lets uncover them.

Name: (just a little title to it)
Type of cough-up: (misspelling, court inconsistancy, alternate case solving, etc.)
Location: (what chapter, who, what, where?)
Description: (what is the matter with it?)

I'll start :)

Name: Angel - Lana's 'guilt'
Type of cough-up: Alternate solution
Location: Case 5, first testemony
Description:
There is a way where you could've gotten out of Angel's deduction. One is Edgeworth's knife - Lana cut herself. There were blood on the shoe as evidence. However, her blood wasn't on the knife. She had to get cut, while at the victim, but why wasn't ther any traces on the knife? Because there was another knife in play. She cut herself. She would've wielded it. But why did she suddenly use another knife, then? That doesn't fit. It would only fit together if she stabbed him with it. However, does that mean that he was already dead when Angel saw him? But why did she stab him twice? She didn't. She marely pulled out the knife of the already dead victim and planted another. She wanted to get caught while doing it. The barrel of water was only swept out to make it look like there WAS blood - the body was transported in by the car, most likely. The scene of the crime was diffrent, and hence, Lana wouldn't be guilty. Stretching it? Maybe.

Name: Gant - Ema's 'guilt'
Type of cough-up: Alternate solution
Location: Case 5, last testemony
Description:
You must get out of his grip, almost faking evidence, in order to win over him - making him spill the beans, and tick him with evidence law. This shouldn't be needed. If you see the contradiction in the image, you should just be able to object. Right? Gant couldn't worm himself out of that one, even if he didn't say too much.

Name: von Karma - letter copy
Type of cough-up: Alternate solution
Location: Case 4, last investigation
Description:
When you get the letter, copy it FFS. Why bring him the original?! Man, your dumb, Phoenix. You got your wares, Phoenix. Make them count! Say its the original, and have everything proceed as it did, but have the backup. Get him arrested, and get all the DL-6 files back.

Name: Das V - Sal's guilt
Type of cough-up: Story inconsistancy
Location: Case 3, last testemony
Description:
Why would Vanquez use Sal for getting rid of the corpse, when she has a mafia squad waiting to do her bidding? I can easily imagine that Sal would drive the van, not knowing what was inside it, and as for him being outside, she could've just forced him back inside when she saw Hammer approching. And what with the pink princess? That was sal's idea. He couldn't publish that from jail!


The better ones may be featured on CR's Contradictions page. But as a rule, we aren't looking for glitches or grammer errors, like a Male Bleep as opposed to a Female, or Matt Enguard's Magic Gobblet of Gravy. We want actal contradictions or blank areas that should've/could've effected the out come of the story.

---

Last edited by Mikker on Wed Feb 28, 2007 8:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Hi everyone. Long time reader, first time poster. I want to start my first post with a long (please bear with me when I say LONG) cough-up, which might have been mentioned before but not this detailed, that's been keeping me up at night. TAKE THAT!!

Name: Channelling Conumdrum or Medium Malfunction
Type of cough-up: Plothole
Location: PWAA:JFA, pretty much all of Case 2
Description:
How was the bullet hole found on the sleeve of Maya's outfit when she got arrested? It was said that Dr. Grey fired a shot at "Ini" from a distance and hit the sleeve of her spirit medium outfit. Plus, the game specifically said that an exchage of clothes between "Ini" and an unconcious Maya took place. All through that case I was under the impression that "Ini's" sleeve had got shot through, "Ini" changed clothes with the unconcious Maya while Phoenix and Lotta were looking for a phone to call the cops, and then she burned it in the incenerator with the door key still left in the sleeve. But...

HOLD IT!!!

None of that could've happened since it was found out that there was never a hole made on "Ini's" sleeve to begin with. That's revealed from the photos Lotta took of "Ini", who she thought was Maya, right after busting through the Channelling Chamber's doors. Is it possible that Dr. Grey missed the shot fired at "Ini" and hit Maya's sleeve while she was hidden in the box that "Ini" placed her in? If so how did the bullet hit the sleeve and NOT injure Maya at all? Anyways, say the hole in the outfit was caused as mentioned, taking Maya not being injured for unexplained reasons out of the equation for the sake of not blowing anyone's mind , that would mean "Ini" didn't change her clothes with Maya. If she did change her clothes with Maya, "Ini" would be wearing the outfit with the bullet hole in it, then goes to the incenerator and burns the outfit (mind you the door key is still inside the sleeve), and Maya gets arrested only wearing the blood stained outfit.

Here's where it comes to a possible but IMPROBABLE theory. If the doc did hit "Ini's" sleeve, the only way that I can see the exchangal (is that a word?) happening between "Ini" and Maya is immediately after the final shot was made and BEFORE Phoenix and Lotta broke into the chamber. There's just not enough time within that gap to change each other's clothes (not to mention having to go back to the hidden Maya to get her clothes off).

Let's agree that Phoenix (and also the writers) f****d up with the clothes exchange theory and there never was one to begin with. With Maya still hidden in the box, the outcome of the whole ordeal could possibly happen if her sleeve was shot (but "magic" stopped her from getting injured by the bullet somehow ). Here lies an upcoming contradiction, how in the heck would the door key end up in the incenerator? Did it pull a Houdini? There's an easy answer but it wouldn't make much sense either: While Phoenix and Lotta were off to call the cops, "Ini" and Morgan, while putting blood on the clothes that Maya was wearing (there wouldn't be any on her since she'd be inside the box the whole time), found the key in her sleeve and "Ini" or Morgan took it.....for some reason. That last part wouldn't make much sense! Why take it, a one of a kind key mind you, and burn it with the clothes let alone keep it yourself? Plus I'm sure Morgan wouldn't allow an outsider to keep the key, let alone let her "burn" a metal ONE OF A KIND KEY!!! If they left it where it was, it would've made Maya as the suspect even more convincing. But say that Morgan kept the key after finding it on Maya and Phoenix brought it up while cross-examining her. I'd think the outcome would be like this:

"HOLD IT!! The cops searched Maya during her arrest and the key to the chamber was never found. *points finger* If her and Dr. Grey were the only ones that entered the chamber how do you explain the missing key?"

"Silly boy! Don't you remember when I sent you and that big-haired, vocabulary-challenged girl to call the police while I took care of Maya? *shows key* I took it from her at that time in order to keep it away from outsiders's hands."

"I see. (I guess I didn't really go anywhere with that one)."

"Phoenix, was there any point in pressing the witness on that statement?"

*sweating* "No, Your Honor..."

"Then I'm afraid I'm going to have to penalize you." *explosion*

"Ack!"

Well I'm done with my ranting on Case 2. I'll leave this up to the boards to debate about which aformentioned outcome is the most possible.

Here's another one that bugged me. Don't worry, this one's short.

Name: Ambedexrious Idle Hands
Type of cough-up: Alternate solution
Location: PWAA:JFA, Case 1
Description:
Phoenix's use of the "victim is left-handed" defense is moot (I hope I used that word correctly); you can legibly write anything down with either hands' index finger. Try it out for yourself-I did it just now and I'm a righty ! Also, that specific contradiction shouldn't have been brought up in the first place. Didn't Gumshoe and the Autopsy Report state that the victim died from a broken neck upon impact? Dustin wouldn't be able to move ANY part of his body, then! If only Phoenix pointed that out first, the case would've been closed alot faster.

Last edited by MadVash2005 on Wed Feb 28, 2007 7:27 am, edited 4 times in total.

The shoot at Ini missed her and went through the screen, through the box (where unconcious!Maya was) and tore through her sleeve. Ini was wearing a different outfit which Morgan provided for her.

The bigger question is how the police had Maya's outfit (with bullet hole) for evidence when it was incinerated (hence why the "Key" evidence exists).

Anywho, here be my recent Case 4 cough-ups which I noticed in my latest playthrough. I'll try and scrutinize the case for more, I posted these in the original thread, and well aware the second shouldn't count, but the 1st and 3rd count:

Name: Senile Oldbag
Type Of Cough Up: General mess-up (perhaps intentional?)
Location: JFA Case 4
Description: At the very start, before we know there has been a murder, Wendy says "You didn't get nominated last year either, did you?" to Powers. Minutes earlier Powers had informed you that The Pink Princess won last year, which is why Jammin' Ninja has his runner up reputation. Will Powers was The Pink Princess.

This is most probably a mistranslation, but based on context, Will Powers was not only nominated, but won.

Incidentally, they refer to "that incident" (Case 3) as last year, aswell, though the trial happened in 2016, and Case 4 is in 2018.

Name: That's not how Psycho-Locks work!
Type Of Cough Up: Plot inconsistancy
Location: JFA Case 4
Description: The magatama finds out when a person is holding a secret, not when they are lying. Even if Matt answers "I didn't kill anyone", he would still hold the secret of hiring them, psycho-locks should have appeared. Using the lack of them as a plot device was rather cheap, plus it was Pearl's instance on doing so which made me believe Matt was guilty. Bad writers, bad foreshadowing, bad consistancy. BAD!

Name: Psychic Wright
Type Of Cough Up: General mistake
Location: JFA Case 4
Description: During the first meeting with Engarde, after he accepts you as his lawyer, when you ask "What Happened?" he will mention he learned Juan was dead because of his manager. Phoenix thinks (The way he talks about his manager, it seems like she runs his life)

Adrian has not been mentioned by name or gender, and given the plot point of her gender later in the game, this is a rather ironic and fun hiccup.

---

I know that "Ini" wore the clothes while she hid in the box before Maya and Grey entered the room. I brought up this cough-up implying that. But are you saying that "Ini" and Maya never changed clothes and that Morgan gave "Ini" another outfit while they were all by themselves in the room? I don't remember somewhere stating that Morgan did that but I somehow remember "Ini" switching clothes with Maya being stated.



Going off of one of my theories, Maya's wasn't the one that was incenerated but was "Ini's" blood-stained outfit instead. How the key got there, well....



....that could only come up if we took your theory of Morgan giving "Ini" another set of clothes while they were all alone away (if that's what you did mean).

It's not a theory, it's stated in the game, Phoenix says when implicating Morgan as an accomplice that the only way she would have had access to the Fey household and a spiritual training uniform (and wig) was via Morgan.

Plus in the anime scene of Ini putting Unconcious!Maya into the box, she is wearing the spiritual training outfit.

The fact that she doesn't have the bullet hole in Lotta's photograph is proof enough that Grey missed and accidentally hit Maya's sleeve while she was in the box, which is why there is a bullet hole in the screen, box and sleeve.

The problem is, her outfit was burned with the key inside of it, hence how Pearl gets the key. But... the police have access to the costume with the bullet hole.

---

It was "Ini's" outfit that was burned, not Maya's. The contridiction is that somehow the key inside of Maya's sleeve ended up in the incenerator. My nonsensical reason why, explained before, is the most logical explanation I can come up with .

I came up with three fairly major ones...

Name: Neil Marshall... the Mediocre...
Type: Memory suppression?
Location: 1-5
Description: When you show Jake the KoP trophy BEFORE he testifies and says who Neil Marshall is (his [late] brother), he doesn't seem to care about it, despite the fact that his brother not only won it, but was killed on the same day. Surely he would at least recognize the damned thing?

---

Name: Von Karma's Selective Perfectionism
Type: Unneeded foreshadowing
Location: 1-4
Description: Despite the fact that he had a complete nervous breakdown when he was WARNED, the fact that he lost a case against Phoenix (even if Edgeworth was to be found guilty for a different case entirely), which would actually remove his unbeaten record, and didn't react at all, was a glaring contradiction with his insane perfectionism.

---

Name: Fate of the Feys
Type: Storyline fault
Location: 2-2
Description: Morgan's justification for conspiring in the murder (and trying to find Maya guilty for it) stems from her abilities as a medium being lesser than Misty's, and as a result being delegated to a branch family. According to her, that means Pearl wouldn't be able to have a position of power in Kurain.

However! Since Pearl's potential, if not outright ability, as a medium is greater than Maya's, wouldn't that mean that there should at least be an inquiry within the village as to which family gets power, since a new head will be required?

You mis-understand the term "Branch Family", by that they mean those who are not direct descendants of the main family, think of it like the family bloodline being dilluted through fifty-eight cousins and such. They're part of the Fey Family, but they branch off from a different part of the family tree than those who directly decended from Ami Fey.

---

Not really, though. Misty and Morgan were full blooded sisters - not distant cousins along a family tree. It was Misty's superior power that led her to being in the main family, and her sister the branch family.

But that's only because Misty and Morgan both started in the main family. Because Pearl was born into the branch family, she stands no chance of becomming their leader as long as someone from the main family still lives, regardless of power. Which is why Morgan is so fed up with the system, and why she's so desperate to have her daughter break it.

---

Damn. I totally didn't get that, I thank you for the update, and apologise for the ignorant post.

...I also think, after reading that, Morgan is a slightly more sympathetic character. I find that heavily unfair.

I'm pretty bad at this whole dealio, huh?

---

Murdering and framing someone still isn't.. really sympathetic

---

Phoenix mentioned that box was filled with medium costumes. They could have burned the one maya was wearing, and given her another one from the box. That other one from the box could have been the one that was shot through, explaining why Maya wasn't injured from the shot.

That doesn't work, that would mean that they gave her a new costume before Dr. Grey shot at Mimi, which is during the channeling.

---

Name: Time Stops
Type Of Cough Up: Plot inconsistancy
Location: Every Case
Description: If Phoenix keeps going to places again and again, shouldn't time elapse? The best examples are Kurain Village - LA/Prosecutor's Office - Police Department

---

Yeah, although I realize this is just the way the game works with the time statements, it's still kinda funny how they're like 'it takes 3 hours to go back and forth by train' from Kurain to your office, and you do that a bunch of times, uncover a plot point and it's only a few minutes later xD

---

its funny because Hotel dusk does that too.

---

Ted Justice said that after the shot, Maya's new costume would be the one with the bullet hole in the sleeve. What (metaphorical) hole in that thory would have you state otherwise?

This goes to Ted Justice. Going off of your theory, why would Morgan and "Ini" want to give Maya another set of clean clothes to wear when they can just plant blood on the one's Maya wore during the channelling? Plus remember, the uncharred remains of the incinerated outfit had splotches of blood on it too, proving that those had to be "Ini's" clothes in the incinerator. But once again, THAT DAMN KEY managed to get itself in there along with it for no logical reason.

But that was the whole point. Phoenix himself notes that Von Karma's behaviour is strange on losing so it can't be an oversight on the part of the writers. Von Karma knew he could still get a Guilty verdict on Edgeworth by the end of the day so it would still count as a win (to him).

---

Name: A hive of fingerprints
Type: Contradiction
Location: Case 4, Trial 1, Oldbag Testimony
Description: During Oldbag's testimony, there is a small arguement about wether or not Matt was wearing the costume, as the gloves would wipe away the fingerprints (at two points Phoenix says that the gloves will smear away the "hive of fingerprints").

Given the fact that Adrian is the one who uses the knife, there should either be glove smear or Adrian's fingerprints. Neither were found, a huge contradiction. *Deskslam*

---

Adrian was being careful about not leaving fingerprints. Compared to the massive number from Matt's using it, I don't think a few smears (say, on the edges) would be noticed.

---

How does one plunge a knife into a body while handling the sides? Even if she was careful while carrying it, wether it was smearing the sticky knife's fingerprints by glove/sleeving it before plunging, or inprinting her own, she had to have handled the knife in a way to thrust it into the corpse. Much like Lana during Case 5, the amount of effort it took for her to stab a dead corpse yielded some over the top results, and she was using a tool knife. Adrian used a butter/steak knife.

---

Don't forget, the Key was there to prove that someone else had to be in the room. As such, where you found the key became secondary information.

---

Case closed on the mystery of the mysterious key. Orca has solved it!

---

What metal was the key made of? Was it ever stated?
If it was something with a high melting point it would've been kinda... stupid to try and burn it. xD
Makes sense though. kinda.

---

OH MY GOD!!! I think Orca hit the nail on the head about the dissapearing Channelling Chamber Key! Thanks to you, I can finally rest easy tonight. I hope either a PW/GS writer or translator reads though these cough-ups so plotholes like this one are covered thoroughly for upcoming releases. Now about that magic bullet...

Hehe, it took me forever. Isn't it nice to have it back?

---

To me, the glaring contradictions are always when it's so obvious who the true murderer is, but because you cannot prove ONE small detail about the murder, the judge will throw it away and go back to the now greatly-flawed theory of your client's guilt. But hey, that's being picky.


The pathway was blocked, and it's highly doubtful she had the mafia squad when meeting with the bigwigs. If they were there, the Steel Samurai would be no problem.
Also, Sal was to Dee as Igor was to Frankenstine, a total drone.

Here's a couple of my own.

• Case 2-2, Ini Miney's confession.
When Phoenix Wright maps out what truely happened in the Meditation Room, it fits all the evidence perfectly. This is contradicted by Fransizka and Ini as being 'too complex' and Morgan Fey having no motive to assist.
The trouble is, Phoenix already knew WHY Morgan Fey was assisting (he knew she was guilty before the trial started, and told Maya why). And here's a good reason for it being 'too complex': framing. Ini Miney could not just go and murder Dr. Grey as soon as she good, the tabloids had given it too much publicity! Phoenix could have shown said tabloid, and declared that Ini wanted to wait for the heat to die down before she could kill Dr. Grey.

But unfortunately, this is how that would probably go:

- "And that's why Ini would wait to murder Dr. Grey, and why Morgan Fey would assist her!"
- "Objection! It's... complex. So, let's go back to accusing Maya Fey, where the evidence doesn't match up at all, there's no motive, and I've even withheld evidence to prevent the court from knowing the truth!"
- "ACK! Yes, she's guilty! Let's kill Maya Fey, fry her in the chair, just don't whip me anymore!"
- ("God... why do you hate me?")

***

Hehe, all in good fun. :)

---

Occams razor, Magmar. In law, and everything else the simplest explanation that explains everything is more likely to be taken into consideration than a more coplex outlandish (But possibly true) theory. It doesn't matter if Nick's explanation worked, unless he could prove that Frans Simpler explanation was untrue, that would be the one that would be believed.

---

Title: Thinker Clocks should be seen, not heard.
Case: Phoenix Wright, Ace Attorney #1.

Frank Sahwit, in his third testimony where Phoenix finally traps him, says that he saw the time (as opposed to 'heard', from the previous testimony) on the murder weapon. Of course, the only way for him to have known the time from the Thinker would be to hear it, not see.

Definitely not a major contradiction, and excused by Sahwit's agitation and "confusion", but one nonetheless.

---

Every now and then, we're reminded that Maya can't see what's happening when Mia is being called to the real world, yet sometimes Maya does know about it, without Phoenix having told her.

---

I believe that is explained in AA3: TaT. They write notes to each other.

---

Name: "Can you hear me now?"
Type: Plot inconsistency
Location: GS1-2, GS2-2
Description: In GS1-2, Mia calls Maya on her cellphone. But in GS2-2, it's revealed that you can't get reception in Kurain village. I suppose one could argue that Maya wasn't living in Kurain village before meeting Phoenix, but she did talk about going back home for training in GS1-4.

---

Is it confirmed that all cel phones can't get reception there, or just Nick's phone? He could have a lousy carrier.

---

But didn't she say in the phone conversation that she was living by herself?
Unless I'm misinterpreting it and she just had her own home in Kurain Village...but PW2 gave me the impression that she was living with Morgan.

---

Simplicity itself.

Maya: 'I've been great! I'm finally getting used to having my own place.'

Maya: Like... burgers! I could really go for a good burger.
Mia: 'Okay, okay. We'll hit the usual joint.'

This sort of infers that she has been living in the city. From what I can see, she moved out of Kurain for a little while and into the city itself. Then, she decided to move back home and complete her training.

---

I'd like to comment about a 'goofup' presented on the site. The goofup in question is [paraphrased] "If Mia was apparently alive long enough to write down Maya's name, why wasn't there blood all over the place?"

Well, I have two answers:

1. Quite simply, the blood is naturally hidden. We don't know where on her head she was hit. It's possible she was hit further to the back of the head, which would mean that the blood would be dripping down her back and into her shirt, which would then be absorbed. You wouldn't be able to see the blood due to her black jacket, and the blood wouldn't be able to drip to the ground.

2. It's an Aeris moment. As many shall recall, Aeris' burial was flawed in FF7. Cloud can walk in the water, yet she is seen sinking into a very deep lake. You also don't see Cloud from the upward shot. Quite simply they screwed these over to make the burial scene seem more 'beautiful'. In a similar case, the reason why Mia's blood is omitted is probably the same reason, as that was the 'last' time we get to see her, they probably didn't want her last vision to be covered in blood. So it's more of an 'on purpose' artistic error than a technical error.

And i'm done. >.>

---

Last edited by SailorTaurus on Fri May 04, 2007 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

More like it's the Judge being his usual idiotic self. Hey, it's a (misguided) verdict in favor of the prosecution, and you know how the prosecutors generally are. Why give up a free win? :P

---

The holes Nick picks in the testimonies are usualy small ones that don't change much. It's just that these little mistakes either give him a reprieve, make the judge decide to hear more testimony or enrage the witness enough to make them slip up. Up until that point, Frans theory seemed much less confusing and only had little flaws. Unlike Phoenix's which were a lot less likely to be true (Occams Razor again).

It was only when they proved that somone else could've got in, that Frans theory became flawed.

---

Also, the pic on FanGuy's sig is awesome.

---

Edgeworth and Franziska became attorneys early because they were being raised by von Karma.

---